Relationships: Speed Dating

[Featherhat]

I think she likes Ralph because he's been a big cheerleader for "integrate KF into society and give her her own life". Like when he was the one who pointed out she was afraid of living and all her memories were Caitlin's so why not talk to Cait about things and see if they can work something out etc. 

I don't think it's supposed to be romantic or pre relationshippy. There's too much build up to Sue but they're giving KF all these connections on the team including also Barry and Cisco to a certain extent because she's much more fun to write than Caitlin. I can't see them spending time on the world's weirdest love triangle (quadrangle) either.

If they wanted to do a KF and Caitlin romance I think a new version of Firestorm or some other character that understands being linked to another person would be the way to go but I'm not sure they're interested in that and DP might be written light towards the end of this season and the beginning of next so I don't think a romance with anyone is a big priority right now. 

Plus there's a possibility that COIE makes changes to the character as well. 

[BeautifulFlower]

17 hours ago, Featherhat said:

I don't think it's supposed to be romantic or pre relationshippy. There's too much build up to Sue but they're giving KF all these connections on the team including also Barry and Cisco to a certain extent because she's much more fun to write than Caitlin. I can't see them spending time on the world's weirdest love triangle (quadrangle) either.

Plus there's a possibility that COIE makes changes to the character as well. 

I know it's not suppose to be romantic. I was just agreeing with that if Sue wasn't coming this season, then this could come off romantic. We know it's not.

About the connection thing, I can give you Cisco. However, the writing implies the only connection they have is teammates. They always write Killer Frost hanging out with Ralph and Cisco.

[BeautifulFlower]

I'm sorry, but I can't blame Eric entirely for the lack of romance this season so far. I simply can't.

We complained last season as well about the lack of romance. I believe there were some times in season 4 we complained about the same thing. Looking back, I feel like it's someone else's doing. I don't think it's Eric. I didn't think it was Todd.

I just really feel like it's someone higher up. Because, we had these same issues last season as well. 

[SevenStars]

1 hour ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I'm sorry, but I can't blame Eric entirely for the lack of romance this season so far. I simply can't.

We complained last season as well about the lack of romance. I believe there were some times in season 4 we complained about the same thing. Looking back, I feel like it's someone else's doing. I don't think it's Eric. I didn't think it was Todd.

I just really feel like it's someone higher up. Because, we had these same issues last season as well. 

I agree.  It seems worst this season but last season was bad too. I feel like seasons after seasons it just keeps getting worst. 

[BeautifulFlower]

8 hours ago, SevenStars said:

I agree.  It seems worst this season but last season was bad too. I feel like seasons after seasons it just keeps getting worst. 

In season 4, a few promotional stills showed they deleted a scene. We had 2 deleted scenes from that season. The first one was about their wedding but ended with them dancing lovingly. We all know about the second deleted scene. They were being 3x04 level type intimate.

I believe in season 5 WA had a deleted scene.

We know they deleted a scene from 6x02. I really feel like it's someone higher up. Maybe Berlanti or the network

[Starry]

I don't even think it seems worse this season. It's a continuation of what they did last season. The difference is that apart from having no romance, this season Iris has no agency either.

I didn't love the way they wrote IrisNora but during that storyline Iris eventually reached a breaking point and she and her daughter had a real confrontation. Iris also managed to get a centric episode with Barry in 5x05. This season everyone but the Wests got to team up with him and they had characters berate Iris for being a "bad wife" with no follow-up to it. Helbing murdered WestAllen and made the show about Nora but by this time last season, Iris had way more agency and a more fleshed out POV than she does now. In season 6 she has an office and a staff but unless something changes in the back half, her journalism is currently being used to introduce other characters or springboard their storylines and keep her away from Barry and out of the lab. Iris also has way less screen time now.

I have personally been complaining about WestAllen since season 4. I think it's normal for writers to feel less invested in a couple after they marry them off but at a certain point it just became ridiculous. Between the lack of a wedding reception and all the cut scenes and kisses it was clear they were being bumped way down the list of the writers' priorities. The quality always left a lot to be desired but the quantity took a hit too. Season 4 is also the season they hired new writers and Berlanti stopped being involved with Flash.

I think AJK was more interested in writing romance than those who followed. The problem is that he was shady and had an ugly tendency of ship baiting Barry with every woman he came into contact with. Helbing and Wallace seem less invested in the romance in general and have made everything about the team. It's not just WestAllen. Joe looks less relevant and present every season and there are no West family scenes anymore. It's Team Flash all day, every day.

11 hours ago, Trini said:

Well, they're not consistent on anything, so I'm not expecting that. I don't even think you even have to wait to see the Sue/Ralph romance; the writers are always going to be invested in the new thing they can play with. The romances on the show always start out pretty good; I think the real, real test is how they write them once they're officially together.

I don't think Cisco and Kamilla started out pretty good. They always seemed very lukewarm about them. Sherloque and his wife didn't get much either. Nora was their LGBT character and despite the fact that they wrote for her like she was the lead, she got no romance. I see no reason why Ralph and Sue should be treated better even with them being a new couple.

11 hours ago, Featherhat said:

I don't think Olicity or just Oliver this year have ever mentioned their anniversary and I haven't heard it for any other couples  in the Arrowverse.

On Supergirl

Spoiler

Alex and Kelly celebrated the anniversary of their first date.

I think Olicity mentioned their anniversary last year? I seem to recall reading something about it on social media. An Arrow fan told me that the writers eventually wrote less content for Olicity as well. I only watched one episode in season 7 and it was the one with the women team-up. Minimal Oliver but they still had Olicity open and close the episode which is more than can be said about WestAllen after they got married. When Flash had its own women team-up episode Barry and Iris had no scenes together either.

[SevenStars]

It  seems like they are trying to replace the West family with TF. Last year, I understood why because Jesse was injured but as far as I know there is no reason for them to be doing that unless Jesse requested less screen time or is planning on leaving. 

But either way,  it is just not working for me. TF doesn't have the sense of history/ family/heart/love that the West family brings to the table. 

Edited December 5, 2019 by SevenStars

[phoenics]

23 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I'm sorry, but I can't blame Eric entirely for the lack of romance this season so far. I simply can't.

We complained last season as well about the lack of romance. I believe there were some times in season 4 we complained about the same thing. Looking back, I feel like it's someone else's doing. I don't think it's Eric. I didn't think it was Todd.

I just really feel like it's someone higher up. Because, we had these same issues last season as well. 

Carrying this racist water isn't doing Eric any favors.  Even if the water wasn't necessarily his.  If some mucky muck up top brought this mandate down, he's still writing it out and he's writing it out in the worst way, shoving Iris into a harmful Strong Black Woman trope.  This writing has catapulted us back into Season 2A levels of bad.  

Why shouldn't Eric be blamed for that?  It's happening under his leadership.

The issue with the fanboys is they want Iris to die.  The SBs want her to die.  They want SB.  So giving these racists and haters what they want just emboldens them - give a rat a cookie and he's gonna ask for a glass of milk.

It's why you don't negotiate with terrorists.

Edited December 6, 2019 by phoenics

[phoenics]

11 hours ago, SevenStars said:

It  seems like they are trying to replace the West family with TF. Last year, I understood why because Jesse was injured but as far as I know there is no reason for them to be doing that unless Jesse requested less screen time or is planning on leaving. 

But either way,  it is just not working for me. TF doesn't have the sense of history/ family/heart/love that the West family brings to the table. 

I agree.  If Joe died, I would mourn the loss of what could have been, but he's barely around so the emotional impact would be zilch. At this point there's no reason to kill off Joe ever.  He's become a non-entity.  It's really sad.

It's like the show has been hollowed out with TF centered.

Joe and Iris always brought the heart to the forefront for Barry... them and Nora.

But they are devaluing Iris and Joe and eventually that Nora well is gonna dry up.  TPTB are making a HUGE mistake. If The Flash slips from it's #1 on the network ratings position, that should get TPTB's attention.

Edited December 6, 2019 by phoenics

[Brinny]

You know what I find super weird about Iris having Cisco vibe her into the timeline of her and Barry's first kiss (other than it being the same timeline where Cisco was literally murdered, so, that's mega awkward in and of itself)? Iris only knows that kiss exists because Barry told her. She doesn't remember it happening. Which, okay, knowing that Barry loves her across multiple timelines and universes, is kind of romantic, sure, but the Iris from THIS timeline was in love with Eddie at this point*.

Like, I had absolutely no horse in the Iris/Eddie game, but YIKES, the dude sacrificed himself to kill Thawne (not to mention, her memories of that time were of her building her life with Eddie: loving him, moving in with him, marrying him, etc.) and years later, you're telling me we have a newly grief-stricken Iris being all, "Yeah, but show me the version of my life where Eddie didn't die and Barry and I mack on each other, instead."

I totally get that it's supposed to be this sweet little moment, and, yeah, I'll concede it accomplishes that, except there's this whole other aspect of it that feels like it cheapens both of Iris' relationships with Barry and Eddie. 

(Sorry, guys, it's possible that I'm still beyond cranky with the lack of all of the West-Allen and West family/Allen family interaction lately and it's made me salty. I'm going to go console myself with fanfic.)

*And, yes, of course somewhere in there are her feelings for Barry, although they're not yet defined.

[Featherhat]

WestAllen and the West Family Feels in general are worse off than they were this time last year, I think EW does carry responsibility for that. It's not like it was brilliant but Iris was allowed to have agency and emotions in the Nora arc. This is Savitar  and post Eddie arc levels of not having a POV on Barry's death and therefore the death of their future together. 

Anyone still trying to appease racists still watching this show 6 seasons and 3 and a half showrunners in is silly because hey, they're still watching anyway and people aren't suddenly going to like Iris if she barely has any screentime and WA isn't going anywhere even if it's barely shown. 

If EW was being thwarted about WA it still doesn't explain the lack of West-Allen family as a whole, which has always been very popular, unless Jesse is being written lightly again. Or apart from a couple of episodes, Iris in general. I don't mind TF at all but it's being given more emphasis than it has in a long time, which would seem to be on the new showrunner. 

19 hours ago, Starry said:

I think Olicity mentioned their anniversary last year? I seem to recall reading something about it on social media. An Arrow fan told me that the writers eventually wrote less content for Olicity as well.

My mistake, I completely forgot about that, they did give it a mention which was nice. I haven't watched much Supergirl this season so I missed it. They certainly could have included a line about their second anniversary being their last one and how that sucks.

[BeautifulFlower]

Unpopular opinion on here: Idc about OTFs, racists fanboys, SBs and etc. Their opinions don't matter to me. Their thoughts and feelings on this show has no value. I'm not going to get all riled up because they like something. Again, their opinions mean nothing. I don't go looking for their comments. Oh they like Iris now? It's a lie. They never will. I don't bother myself with them anymore.

In my honest opinion, I do not think Eric is catering to these people. I really don't. Eric just seems to care more about The Flash than Barry. All the writing for this half is about caring more about The Flash. Barry himself did not matter in this story setting. Truthfully, its been this way for awhile.

Barry didn't prepare his wife, father-in-law, best friend, and other close friend for life without him. No, it was all about The Flash. Eric not only failed Iris, but he failed Barry himself.

[phoenics]

6 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Unpopular opinion on here: Idc about OTFs, racists fanboys, SBs and etc. Their opinions don't matter to me. Their thoughts and feelings on this show has no value. I'm not going to get all riled up because they like something. Again, their opinions mean nothing. I don't go looking for their comments. Oh they like Iris now? It's a lie. They never will. I don't bother myself with them anymore.

In my honest opinion, I do not think Eric is catering to these people. I really don't. Eric just seems to care more about The Flash than Barry. All the writing for this half is about caring more about The Flash. Barry himself did not matter in this story setting. Truthfully, its been this way for awhile.

Barry didn't prepare his wife, father-in-law, best friend, and other close friend for life without him. No, it was all about The Flash. Eric not only failed Iris, but he failed Barry himself.

Normally I don't care about those people either and not one of us is saying that their comments matter - EXCEPT when what they want is clearly being catered to in the writing, to the detriment of the show (and most fans).  And since what they want is rooted in racism, it hurts to see them catered to by TPTB.  And in this case, that means Eric Wallace himself.

It's no secret that they've lobbied for TeamFlash to be elevated more in the writing and for Iris to be marginalized.  That's happened.  And even if Barry is being pushed aside in the writing, they do have characters saying that Barry matters too - Ralph, Joe and others have said it.  They're at least paying that lip service (unlike Iris' racist SBW trope).  And most of TLTOBA Part 1 focused directly on what BARRY would be losing - that's the WHOLE point of that entire episode - to return the focus to Barry.

So no, Eric doesn't just care about The Flash.  Even in that whole TLTOBA Parts 1 & 2, it was still about Barry/Flash - but the people he cared about most (Iris and Joe) were paid dust in the writing - we barely got Joe's PoV and Iris got one scene to "accept" it - without ever even realizing this meant NO NORA - but Barry got all of TLTOBA Part 1 to grieve/realize Nora wouldn't be born.  TF got whole episodes devoted to them, some where they were mostly with Barry (not TF) or alone (Cisco), whilst Joe and Iris got dust.

I feel like what you presented (bolded) was a strawman, because that's not what I've seen people complaining about when they are talking about racists/fanboys, etc..  We are complaining that their lobbying clearly paid off - because what they've been lobbying for is clearly playing out right on our screens.

Again - this is Season 2A bad - mostly because it feels like a really bad shift away from centering the Wests and family.  When TF gets elevated in the writing over Barry's actual family and WIFE - that's not just "The Flash" being valued more.  They aren't valuing "The Flash" when Cisco bites back at Iris that Barry is HIS BFF when she says she's losing her husband.  Iris is Barry's actual Best Friend - because she's his WIFE and before THAT - she was Barry's BFF.  So - WTF Cisco?  Nah son - you don't get to roll up and act like your recent BFF title (which is BS since Barry has NEVER called him that) is more than Iris losing a husband and her entire future family.

Ugh - now I'm just mad again.  Typing this all out makes it even more obvious that the show is devaluing Iris and falsely elevating TF.  That Cisco bit really upset me.  Especially since this was the first time we'd seen Iris even talking about her feelings since Episode TWO!!!

[Starry]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

Normally I don't care about those people either and not one of us is saying that their comments matter - EXCEPT when what they want is clearly being catered to in the writing, to the detriment of the show (and most fans). 

This.

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

And even if Barry is being pushed aside in the writing, they do have characters saying that Barry matters too - Ralph, Joe and others have said it.  They're at least paying that lip service (unlike Iris' racist SBW trope).  And most of TLTOBA Part 1 focused directly on what BARRY would be losing - that's the WHOLE point of that entire episode - to return the focus to Barry.

Exactly. I agree that in the earlier episodes the focus was more on the Flash than on Barry. He was making sure that his team mates could protect the city in his absence not that his friends and his family could be emotionally ready to lose someone that they love. But that was clearly by design. Ralph reminds him that Barry is important too and his civilian persona gets honored at CCPD. This then leads to 6x07 and Barry snapping at the Speed Force and resenting the Flash and how much he has lost and is going to lose ( mother, wife, daughter, friends ) because of it.

Ramsey calls out Barry for "wanting to leave Iris a widow" but there's a follow-up to it. Barry's guilt and sadness manifest in the image of Iris in funeral garb and his doubts and will to live manifest in the image of him, Iris and baby Nora as a family.

Now contrast that to Ralph and Ramsey bashing Iris for not spending time with Barry and accepting his fate. Where are the scenes where Iris proves them wrong? Nowhere to be found.

2 hours ago, phoenics said:

They aren't valuing "The Flash" when Cisco bites back at Iris that Barry is HIS BFF when she says she's losing her husband.  Iris is Barry's actual Best Friend - because she's his WIFE and before THAT - she was Barry's BFF.  So - WTF Cisco?  Nah son - you don't get to roll up and act like your recent BFF title (which is BS since Barry has NEVER called him that) is more than Iris losing a husband and her entire future family.

Barry has been calling Cisco and Caitlin his best friends since season 3 when he and Iris started dating. I had already made peace with it. I think he called Cisco his best friend in 6x04 too.

[phoenics]

1 hour ago, Starry said:

Barry has been calling Cisco and Caitlin his best friends since season 3 when he and Iris started dating. I had already made peace with it. I think he called Cisco his best friend in 6x04 too.

I must have blocked that blasphemy out. 

[phoenics]

It's sad AF when a fan manages to write a heartfelt scene for Barry & Iris that the writers either refuse to do or are incapable of doing, but:

Thank God for Adam.  This actually made me tear up a little.

There is a scintilla of a chance that we might see something like this in the Crisis episodes, but I actually wouldn't be shocked if we got nothing.  These writers are on some absolute BS.

[CabotCove]

whoa, so Candice actually said this, whena fan asked a question

[BeautifulFlower]

3 hours ago, CabotCove said:

whoa, so Candice actually said this, whena fan asked a question

Yeah she did. Honestly, I don't get some people's obsession with wanting a sex scene. What will it prove? I feel like some people only want this just to prove that WA have sex. That's the actual impression and I want to know why?

Me personally, I don't need to have a sex scene for them. It would be nice to see, but I wouldn't need it. I know Barry and Iris are intimate and have sex. Would I like to see them be more affectionate and kiss more? YES!!!!!

[Kate45]

On 12/5/2019 at 8:13 AM, BeautifulFlower said:

In season 4, a few promotional stills showed they deleted a scene. We had 2 deleted scenes from that season. The first one was about their wedding but ended with them dancing lovingly. We all know about the second deleted scene. They were being 3x04 level type intimate.

I believe in season 5 WA had a deleted scene.

We know they deleted a scene from 6x02. I really feel like it's someone higher up. Maybe Berlanti or the network

I’m sorry, but I really don’t agree with this. Look at the episodes where Berlanti created the stories for Flash. Very romantic for WA. Some of the few times Berlanti has spoken about Flash has been in relation to WA and their romance. It was Greg who said Iris needed to have a bigger role on the show in 2B and season 3. He was the one who is credited for pushing for Barry and Iris to get married. Beyond Greg, it was the network who told Todd to give WA a kid. At the 100th episode party, the CW president and the WB president mentioned only Candice for being such a change of force in the comic medium. They were the only two to publicly congratulate Candice for winning a Saturn. 
 

Not too mention that in the Arrowverse and the CW at large, romance remains an important aspect of those shows. It’s the CW, they love romance and it shows on other programming. At SDCC roundtables, when Eric talked about his creative direction for the show he said (voluntarily) that he was doing everything he wanted to do on the show in the first 8 episodes as a show runner that he couldn’t do as a writer. He even made a statement about those eps having his fingerprint on them. That they were close to his heart. He said the network gave him zero pushback. Eric also said that was given two mandates (by Greg): more heart, less spectacle, and to hire a black female writer for the show. He gave some excuses around why he couldn’t hire a black female writer at that moment, but that he would be looking to make that change in the coming months.
 

I still have yet to see a black female writer on the show. There’s more heart on the show for the men, but women have been by and large ignored in the run up to Crisis. Iris, Cecile, Caitlin, Kamila, and Allegra have yet to have a POV about Crisis. Frost had one when she thought she was dying, but not since. Contrast that with the men on the show and it’s night and day. I still think there are issues with the men’s POV, but there’s been an attempt to address the pain of men. 
 

Also, Eric has misrepresented this season  for Iris and WA from the start. Iris’ journalism was said to be “on fire” in 6A, and that didn’t happen. Iris’ natural hair was supposed to show a “new side of the character” and she was offscreen the whole time. WA were supposed to spend “every moment together that they could” leading up to Crisis, and they never spent any time alone. 
 

While AJK was a pig, he did like romance. Todd and Eric might on some level, but they prefer to placate fanboys who hate Iris and WA. That’s not a Greg or network call. That’s clearly a show runner call. In Eric’s (and to an extent Todd) case they would talk differently in interviews about how important romance is for the show but they don’t show anything on the actual show. They seem to know that the appetite is there, but won’t deliver on it week to week. 

Edited December 7, 2019 by Kate45

[Starry]

1 hour ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Yeah she did. Honestly, I don't get some people's obsession with wanting a sex scene. What will it prove? I feel like some people only want this just to prove that WA have sex. That's the actual impression and I want to know why?

Me personally, I don't need to have a sex scene for them. It would be nice to see, but I wouldn't need it. I know Barry and Iris are intimate and have sex. Would I like to see them be more affectionate and kiss more? YES!!!!!

That's not the reason. I think this sexless portrayal of WestAllen is harmful. I know that they have sex but why can't they show Barry be sexually attracted to his wife and vice versa? I need it for the same reason I need West family scenes and domestic WestAllen scenes.

Every main couple has sex scenes that could be more or less explicit depending on the rating. I don't see why WestAllen has to be the exception. It's just ridiculous.

I don't want something graphic. Just afterglow scenes and makeouts that fade to black and lead to sex.

Examples: Link 1 Link 2 Link 3

This is from Supergirl which is another PG show: Link 4

I want this type of scenes back. Preferably with no interruptions and better editing.

I think and hope Candice is talking about full sex scenes which is not something that I badly need.

[SevenStars]

9 hours ago, Starry said:

That's not the reason. I think this sexless portrayal of WestAllen is harmful. I know that they have sex but why can't they show Barry be sexually attracted to his wife and vice versa? I need it for the same reason I need West family scenes and domestic WestAllen scenes.

Every main couple has sex scenes that could be more or less explicit depending on the rating. I don't see why WestAllen has to be the exception. It's just ridiculous.

I don't want something graphic. Just afterglow scenes and makeouts that fade to black and lead to sex.

Examples: Link 1 Link 2 Link 3

This is from Supergirl which is another PG show: Link 4

I want this type of scenes back. Preferably with no interruptions and better editing.

I think and hope Candice is talking about full sex scenes which is not something that I badly need.

I agree.

"Sex scene/love scene doesn't mean explicitly scene with nudity. It means intimacy. It means kissing, cuddling, a showing that Barry does not just love Iris but is attracted to her. These are all important aspect in showing a healthy and good relationship. And to me, it is really important with West Allen because they are an interracial relationship. They are a relationship that lot people resent because they don't think Barry should be attracted to Iris. They have no problem with Barry loving Iris as friend/sister, but the idea that Barry could see Iris and see beauty and attractiveness, is something they hate because Iris skin tone means she shouldn't be seen as such by their hero, by the one on top. 

By making Westallen "sexless", the writers are proven their points and makes Westallen appear to be "force". A couple they are forcing together instead of a two characters who are physically attracted to each other, both mentally and physically. 

It is not an obsession, it is a complaint of the unfairness and wrongness of the fact that every main couple had a love scene on this network. This network have history and current strategy of using love scenes to attract the young audience they want. They use fade to black and other version of network tv sex scenes. They do it with toxic couples/healthy couples. But when it comes to the interacial couple, who is the main couple, it is somehow wrong. It is not that type of "tv show". It is an obsession with sex. 

Honestly, it is not my #1 complaint, it is why I rarely bring it up. But that doesn't mean I don't understand why it is important. I understand and fully support fans who are not just letting this go because I'm not viewing this argument base on what I want or care for but viewing it base on full context.

Edited December 8, 2019 by SevenStars

[Featherhat]

I don't think Berlanti has anything to do with the lack of WA this season. He's also been overlord when things were better. "More heart and a black female writer" don't equate to ("oh and tone down WA and makes sure Iris has little POV on her husband's upcoming death"). He's too busy to micromanage each show on whether they're putting in romantic/emotional/intimate scenes, unless they drastically wanted to change things up. Or unless it's a major storyline or his idea for the two weddings and a funeral. 

Wallace did put in "heart" unfortunately it was mostly about Barry connecting with the rest of the team and preparing them for life without his powers, not even him. And then bits in the premiere, ep 2 and part 1. I see no reason to think EW is lying when he says he got the opportunity to get the exact episodes he wants, it's just that it's the opposite to what many hoped. Arrowverse showrunners have also always promised the earth and sometimes failed to deliver even a single continent. I don't think it's just about pleasing the anti romance or anti interracial fans, or not completely, I think it's showrunner preference too. Fans aren't going anywhere over a few intimate and/or emotionally intimate scenes. OR even a coherent POV as a couple running through this "every actor gets a centric" 6A. 

Even as the "family show" I don't see why they couldn't have a slightly suggestive post coital or kissing....fadeout...….. And yes it was bullshit that they skipped over their first time completely, even if it ended up as the tamest thing ever. 

I think Arrow is the odd one out in terms of sexiness or how much of the scene they show, SA is on record as saying he likes sex scenes and isn't uncomfortable as many actors are. However LOT managed a hot flashback montage for it's interracial male couple (Constantine and Des). Cisco and Gypsy brought the heat to a certain extent. We've talked a little about this before, but maybe it is what the actors are comfortable with to a large extent.

[Starry]

3 hours ago, Featherhat said:

We've talked a little about this before, but maybe it is what the actors are comfortable with to a large extent.

I am going to reply only to this because I more or less agree with everything else you wrote. GG and/or CP being uncomfortable with a PG love scene doesn't explain why their sexiest scene ended up on the cutting floor. It also doesn't explain why Helbing altered the script of a guest writer and cut a line about Barry and Iris practicing making babies. Verbal acknowledgements to sex are apparently off-limits as well. This isn't on the actors. This is totally on the showrunners.

Kreisberg is to blame for why WestAllen never got a first time scene. He seemed to be the most interested in the romance/sex stuff and he couldn't do that much for them. Maybe that has to do with racism but then again Barry and Iris got the most explicit and sexy scenes ( for a PG show/for TF standards ) under his leadership.

I don't think Cisco and Cynthia and Constantine and Desmond and other secondary couples involving a POC getting sexy scenes can be used as proof that there can't be racism involved where WestAllen is concerned. Barry is the lead and he's a part of many fan ships. I don't believe those other characters are fan shipped half as much as Barry is so them getting a sex scene with a/another POC wouldn't upset anyone. Or it's totally possible that this doesn't have anything to do with not angering anti-shippers and that the writers and showunners themselves hold some conscious or unconscious biases.

But even though it looks bad no couple has gotten anything resembling a love scene under Helbing or Wallace's leadership. The difference between the Cisco/Cynthia and Cisco/Kamilla bed scenes is like night and day. That's why I am waiting for Ralph and Sue to see what happens. But then the Mute Strong Black Woman trope they are forcing on Iris is still racist whether they realize it or not. If they can operate under racist thinking in that area they can do the same when it comes to this sexless portrayal of WestAllen.

[phoenics]

9 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Yeah she did. Honestly, I don't get some people's obsession with wanting a sex scene. What will it prove? I feel like some people only want this just to prove that WA have sex. That's the actual impression and I want to know why?

Me personally, I don't need to have a sex scene for them. It would be nice to see, but I wouldn't need it. I know Barry and Iris are intimate and have sex. Would I like to see them be more affectionate and kiss more? YES!!!!!

I wanted a love scene like Oliver and Felicity got and like all of the other Arrowverse OTPs typically get.  I wanted it because that's what OTP pairs eventually get.  Like - ALL OF THEM.  Why should Barry and Iris be the only damn ones who don't get one?  Because TF is supposedly a kids show?

Yeah?  Because it was apparently a kids show when they had Barry making out with Linda in S1.  It was apparently a kids show when they had Barry in bed with Patty more than once.

So WHY TF is it different when it's Barry and Iris?  

We already know Barry and Iris have had sex - but only because we've been told.  The most we ever got was when they moved in together and then we got the morning after.  But since then it's been pretty much nil.

And honestly - I don't even need a full on love scene... just making out that slowly fades into them falling on the bed and a fade out.

I'd be happy with what we got when they first started dating - the couch scene and then what we got in S3 - the loft scenes.

But Barry and Iris are a married couple and we really haven't seen them ACT married - except in that one scene that got cut.

You gotta ask - WHY?!  Why is THIS show the one where the OTP couple are so chaste?

The kids show argument fell apart the moment it slipped from the writers lips on twitter, given the scenes they showed us in S1 and even S2.

[BeautifulFlower]

The sex scene people want is Barry and Iris making out and being half naked. Of course, no one is expecting full on nudity. People want the type of sex scene Olicity had. That is the impression I get from people asking.

We don't have access to the data they receive. Kids are watching this show. We can't help that. The only time I don't buy this is a PG show is when they show people getting killed or stabbed repeatedly (ugh). However, I do believe them about no sex scene.

I don't get why people like try call the Pg excuse BS by using Linda and Eddie. Yes, Barry was making out hot and heavy with his shirt off and Iris was on top of Eddie. We haven't gotten scenes like that after season 1. The only thing we will get is people in bed with each other or hot make outs. Nothing else. If it's anything alluding to sex, it is getting cut. For all we know, after season 1, the network probably was alerted to the fact that young children watch the show.

Edit: I was writing this comment before phoenics posted.

Edited December 7, 2019 by BeautifulFlower

[phoenics]

8 hours ago, SevenStars said:

I agree.

"Sex scene/love scene doesn't mean explicitly scene with nudity. It means intimacy. It means kissing, cuddling, a showing that Barry does not just love Iris but is attracted to her. These are all important aspect in showing a healthy and good relationship. And to me, it is really important with West Allen because they are an interracial relationship. They are a relationship that lot people resent because they don't think Barry should be attracted to Iris. They have no problem with Barry loving Iris as friend/sister, but the idea that Barry could see Iris and see beauty and attentiveness, is something they hate because Iris skin tone means she shouldn't be seen as such by their hero, by the one on top. 

By making Westallen "sexless", the writers are proven their points and makes Westallen appear to be "force". A couple they are forcing together instead of a two characters who are physically attracted to each other, both mentally and physically. 

It is not an obsession, it is a complaint of the unfairness and wrongness of the fact that every main couple had a love scene on this network. This network have history and current strategy of using love scenes to attract the young audience they want. They use fade to black and other version of network tv sex scenes. They do it with toxic couples/healthy couples. But when it comes to the interacial couple, who is the main couple, it is somehow wrong. It is not that type of "tv show". It is an obsession with sex. 

ICAM.  When you couple this with the fact that The Flash is the NUMBER ONE SHOW on the CW - what kind of effed up message does it send to show this couple have zero romantic intimacy scenes?

It feeds a racist narrative that it has no business feeding.  

To be honest, WestAllen has survived on this show through sheer natural chemistry of GG/CP and them taking the crappy mess the writers give them and making it golden.  The buildup of WA was oversold compared to how the writers slapped them together.  Arrow writers would've done that so much better.  Hell - Roswell writers would've done that so much better.  When you compare it to other CW shows - the writers really did WA dirty.  They've always done them dirty and it's harmful.

What's happening now though is just criminal.

[CabotCove]

Quote

Honestly, I don't get some people's obsession with wanting a sex scene. What will it prove? I feel like some people only want this just to prove that WA have sex. That's the actual impression and I want to know why?

Because its storytelling, telling stories about humanity and humans have always had sex. You could ask why they need to show anything at all, why characters need to be shown doing  anything at all.  Its called telling a story, and telling it as detailed and "realistic" as you can. 

No one is saying they need to show  graphic love/sex scenes. Just do what every other show on broadcast network does. Even a bit of suggestive scenes work, they are supposed to be creative people and they are a lot of ways they can have fun with these scenes.  And not just love scene but also pure romance and sensual scenes. 

They keep trying to make this show into a kid show, its never been one, its a night primetime show. It has the same timeslot as some of its superhero sibling shows and other CW shows. Violence and other themes in the show are not kid friendly either. The Flash is not a Saturday morning cartoon. 

Edited December 7, 2019 by CabotCove

[phoenics]

Yeah - this whole "it's a kids' show!" argument really angers me because this show has NO issues showing pretty aggressively violent scenes against Iris.

S3 showed her getting SHANKED over and over again by Savitar.  Not only did they show it over and over in the actual show, they even used it repeatedly in the "previously on ..." excerpts at the beginning of nearly EVERY episode in S3B.

And then in the most recent episode, they showed Barry himself choking Iris out twice.  And then him never showing remorse for it or apologizing to her for it - even if he couldn't control himself.  It was shown to be the exact same as his interactions with the rest of TF - when it wasn't.

I still remember those kids who do reaction videos for this show and how they cried when they thought Iris was dead in S3.  That's what they remember.  A lead in to lovemaking where it's just kissing and making out wouldn't be an issue at all - especially if it faded out before things got "serious".

I believe the unchecked violence on this show toward Iris is problematic.  I still remember her stabbing HERSELF to get rid of DeVoe's wife (forgot her name already) - and then when Barry actually asks if she's okay, she pulls another SBW.

It's just too much.

I'm angry that the violence to Iris onscreen is perfectly fine but she can't be romanced by her husband or even complimented by him.  The last compliment he gave her was when she was in the red dress and they were working the case together - but even that was ruined because Iris was too preoccupied with Nora treating her like crap.

And S3 - the outfits Iris wore that season demanded compliments from Barry - there were so many hits that season that it's INSANE that Barry wouldn't notice.  In S1, they would show Barry actively check Iris out.  Now?  Dust.

Also - I'm still irritated that in S2, Barry was shown giving Patty a very passionate kiss and the only kiss with B/I we've gotten that has come close to that one was the Flashtime kiss.  Crisis needs a desperate kiss like that - it just does.  We won't get it though.  

This show needs women writers and most especially black women writers.

Edited December 7, 2019 by phoenics

[Starry]

1 hour ago, BeautifulFlower said:

For all we know, after season 1, the network probably was alerted to the fact that young children watch the show.

This is entirely possible. I agree that there was a shift between season 1 and season 2.

This is what was filmed for Barry and Patty. He's shirtless, she's wearing his shirt and there are verbal references to sex but no cuddling or making out. The Iris/Eddie and Barry/Linda season 1 scenes were more explicit. Also, the Barry and Patty scene was cut.

This is what they aired when it comes to showing Barry and Patty in bed: Link. Nothing sexy or cute about it. He just wakes up from a nightmare. They actually managed to film something better for WestAllen when Barry was having nightmares about Savitar killing Iris: Link. I used to hate how they interrupted many of their scenes. If only I knew I wouldn't get anything at all in the following seasons 🙄

If they didn't know about their kid audience in season 1 they definitely knew in season 3. They aired those scenes anyway and I would like to have them back. Possibly with better editing because I clearly remember how the season 3 mid-season finale loft scene looked hotter in the trailer and in the intro of 3B than it did in the actual episode. They tend to not only cut but also tone down WestAllen kisses.

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

When you couple this with the fact that The Flash is the NUMBER ONE SHOW on the CW - what kind of effed up message does it send to show this couple have zero romantic intimacy scenes?

Aside from all the violence and lack of intimacy, the show is sending the message that romance dies the minute you get married. The quality of the WestAllen scenes totally decreased after their wedding. The cut scene was probably the only domestic scene they had. The writers have them "parent" too much. Always taking care of new members like Ralph, their adult daughter, the entire team. I am sick and tired of it.

[adora721]

I reminded a fanboy on Twitter that two men created the Flash comic and chose to give Barry Allen, and the other Flashes, girlfriends and wives. Men put romance into a comic aimed at young men, not women. And yet the complaint from current fandom is that the show should never focus on romance, as if it's a new idea thrown into the show as an afterthought. Nope; there's 60+ years of romance in the comic written primarily by men for men. 

[Trini]

11 hours ago, Featherhat said:

We've talked a little about this before, but maybe it is what the actors are comfortable with to a large extent.

Man, didn't think we'd get here so early.

[SevenStars]

1 hour ago, adora721 said:

I reminded a fanboy on Twitter that two men created the Flash comic and chose to give Barry Allen, and the other Flashes, girlfriends and wives. Men put romance into a comic aimed at young men, not women. And yet the complaint from current fandom is that the show should never focus on romance, as if it's a new idea thrown into the show as an afterthought. Nope; there's 60+ years of romance in the comic written primarily by men for men. 

And the way Westallen is written in the comics is beyond romantic. No one is above or equal to Iris in Barry's heart. 

My main problem with the comics base on what I have read (not a lot) is that Iris, as an individual character outside of WestAllen is not always well develop. 

I hope the day come when love/romance is seen as a great addition to human lives/condition and not just a stupid thing that only women enjoy and participate in. 

[SevenStars]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

Man, didn't think we'd get here so early.

Yeah, this suggestion was posted on Twitter and I saw someone responded with article and clips where both Candice and Grant expressed desire for more romance/intimacy for Westallen. Base on how Grant and Candice behave in interviews regarding Westallen, I have a hard time buying that it's them who doesn't want more romantic/intimacy scenes for Westallen but I could be wrong. And even if I'm wrong, they are not the writers. They have to play what is put in the script, whether they like it or not. Grant have more say because he is the lead but he is not the final say. 

[Featherhat]

3 hours ago, Trini said:

Man, didn't think we'd get here so early.

Yeah I knew that was coming! As I said, I know we cycle through the same complaints and explanations every year whoever the showrunner is. I don't think it's the case and if it was it certainly wouldn't be about *blaming* the actors as explanation over more less clothed or risqué scenes where there is so say.

Lots of romantic and some kissing scenes have been cut which is frustrating and really hurts the WA story, but many of the type of scenes people really want to see have never even been considered to be written. Which yeah is because "we're not that type of show". And I think both actors are fine with that and don't push it, which is more what I was getting at. They're clearly fine with romance in general.

The biggest problem this season is that even moments that are supposed to be intimate and emotional are framed so they're less so, like the scenes with Team Flash right there or even the scene in ep 2 where Barry tells Iris about the billion futures and he's going to have to die, it's shot really choppily. It's obviously not supposed to be romantic but emotional and the way it was shot and or edited had me struggling to believe this was between a loving husband and wife. The acting was fine. 

Edited December 8, 2019 by Featherhat

[Kate45]

7 hours ago, Starry said:

This is entirely possible. I agree that there was a shift between season 1 and season 2.

I also think people need to keep in mind that under AJK there was always a huge turnover in the writers room. He fired almost all of the season 1 writers going into season 2. He fired nearly all of the season 2 writers going into season 3. He fired nearly all of the season 3 writers going into season 4. In fact, of the current writing team only one writer from season 3 remains: Lauren Certo. In the history of this show, this is the longest period of time for a group of writers to be with the show. Under Todd and then Eric, the writing team has been stable and that’s when the romance really went down. Outside of Lauren, I tend to think these writers can’t really write romance on a consistent basis. They haven’t proven me wrong thus far. Even the sexiest scene we have gotten (the deleted burnt toast scene) was written by guest writers. 
 

It’s the show runner who holds the key to the amount of romance, but I do think the writing staff (outside of Lauren) may not be all that comfortable with it. At least two of the writers were formally Nickelodeon writers.
 

As far as it being the actors, I would reject that idea. For one, actors don’t have that level of control. It couldn’t be an explicit scene because it’s network tv. Plus, after watching how comfortable Grant and Candice were in that deleted scene, I truly don’t see what the hold up would be on their end. I guarantee the script didn’t call for all of the things that took place in that scene. Most of the physical touching that is done on the show is due to what Grant and Candice add on their own because according to them, the scripts don’t give direction about that. 

[Starry]

4 hours ago, Featherhat said:

Lots of romantic and some kissing scenes have been cut which is frustrating and really hurts the WA story, but many of the type of scenes people really want to see have never even been considered to be written. Which yeah is because "we're not that type of show". And I think both actors are fine with that and don't push it, which is more what I was getting at. They're clearly fine with romance in general.

The actors have to be fine with it. There's no point in pushing for something more risqué from either the actors or the fandom because the "this is a family show" excuse is not total bs. The Flash is PG. So is Supergirl and no character on that show has gotten the content some in the fandom want for WestAllen. The Karamel scene I linked was probably the most explicit scene Kara has gotten in five seasons and it's on par with what WestAllen used to get in season 3. Except the Supergirl writers made sure to let the audience know that that was Karamel's first time.

Speaking of the actors, I don't think either Grant or Candice have ever shot something risqué but Melissa Benoist has and the one sex scene Kara got was very tame. DP has also filmed more explicit scenes but Caitlin didn't get one moment that even hinted at sex. JPK was on Black Sails and they didn't give Nora anything. Actors who are more used to explicit scenes either didn't get anything or got tame scenes during their time on Flash/Supergirl.

I don't think the "family show" is a bs excuse for why the characters on Flash don't get the type of scenes characters on Arrow or Riverdale get. I think it's a bs excuse for why they have no problem showcasing violence but the WestAllen kisses and makeouts get either cut from the final product or toned down in the editing process. The Flashtime kiss @phoenics mentioned was passionate but with the way the scene was shot we didn't get to see much of it. I watched the BTS video for both the WestAllen season 3 finale kiss and the double wedding kiss. Those were long kisses. You wouldn't be able to tell it though. The editing left a lot to be desired.

3 hours ago, Kate45 said:

Even the sexiest scene we have gotten (the deleted burnt toast scene) was written by guest writers.

Of course it was. No way the writers we've had since season 4 could come up with that. Thanks for the info.

I think that WestAllen don't get the risqué scenes some people want because The Flash is PG show. I also think that when they used to get more romance and makeout scenes those were either cut or toned down for the same reason Iris is portrayed as a Strong Black Woman and can't get a consistent journalism arc no matter who's running the show ( shady reasons ). Lastly, I believe there has been less romance overall since season 4 because Berlanti is less involved and the seasons 4-6 writers are like romance-hating fanboys.

[BeautifulFlower]

15 hours ago, Starry said:

This is entirely possible. I agree that there was a shift between season 1 and season 2.

This is what was filmed for Barry and Patty. He's shirtless, she's wearing his shirt and there are verbal references to sex but no cuddling or making out. The Iris/Eddie and Barry/Linda season 1 scenes were more explicit. Also, the Barry and Patty scene was cut.

This is what they aired when it comes to showing Barry and Patty in bed: Link. Nothing sexy or cute about it. He just wakes up from a nightmare. They actually managed to film something better for WestAllen when Barry was having nightmares about Savitar killing Iris: Link. I used to hate how they interrupted many of their scenes. If only I knew I wouldn't get anything at all in the following seasons 🙄

If they didn't know about their kid audience in season 1 they definitely knew in season 3. They aired those scenes anyway and I would like to have them back. Possibly with better editing because I clearly remember how the season 3 mid-season finale loft scene looked hotter in the trailer and in the intro of 3B than it did in the actual episode. They tend to not only cut but also tone down WestAllen kisses.

This. This is what I've been trying to say in regards to this topic. Something clearly happened after season 1. We all know its not a true kids show, but they seem to know kids are watching. It shouldn't be a surprise. After all, The Flash is one of DC's campiest heroes. I can see how the show attracted young kids.

As I said before, we're probably only going to get scenes of couple's in bed, make out scenes that doesn't have someone taking their top off, etc. Anything alluding to sex is tone down or cut completely. It's something that won't change. 

You know what? Why are parents letting their kids watch a Cw show anyway. This network is garnered toward teens and adults. I know The Flash is Dc hero that attracts young children, but did the parents not know the history with Cw shows?

I do agree though with everyone else. I want to see Wa being romantic again. I finally want a date that won't be interrupted.

Edited December 8, 2019 by BeautifulFlower

[Kate45]

2 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

This. This is what I've been trying to say in regards to this topic. Something clearly happened after season 1. We all know its not a true kids show, but they seem to know kids are watching. It shouldn't be a surprise. After all, The Flash is one of DC's campiest heroes. I can see how the show attracted young kids.

As I said before, we're probably only going to get scenes of couple's in bed, make out scenes that doesn't have someone taking their top off, etc. Anything alluding to sex is tone down or cut completely. It's something that won't change. 

You know what? Why are parents letting their kids watch a Cw show anyway. This network is garnered toward teens and adults. I know The Flash is Dc hero that attracts young children, but did the parents not know the history with Cw shows?

I do agree though with everyone else. I want to see Wa being romantic again. I finally want a date that won't be interrupted.

I wouldn’t let my kids watch this show because I think it’s too violent. I also think some of the language is a bit much at times. Plus, the show has made references to threesomes etc, so I don’t know how appropriate it is for kids tbh. 
 

That said, the network, producers, and cast have always promoted this show as being for “the whole family”. I do think that’s why the show doesn’t have more sexuality in it. Americans have long been more opposed to sexuality and nudity than violence. Beyond that, I also think the show runners have made the show less sexual overtime. 
 

...this is also why I will be watching Eric like a hawk for the Ralph/Sue romance build-up. 

Edited December 8, 2019 by Kate45

[adora721]

I find it disturbing that Americans are more comfortable with watching violence than watching two committed people expressing physical love; I'm not even talking about graphic sex either. That's really twisted.

I echo much about the desire for romance, not sex. They aren't the same thing. Plenty of people just go at it sexually on TV without love being involved. Iris and Barry are in love and in a committed marriage; we should still see them being romantic. Like was said earlier, the message to kids is that marriage and parenthood are the death of all romance. What an awful message to send to kids watching the show. The other message is that violence towards women, particularly a woman of color, is normal and doesn't require any remorse, redemption for the abuser, or an apology. Way to go, CW!

[Trini]

Sweet little Barry & Iris scene in the Batwoman part of the COIE crossover; highlights in this gifset: https://irisandtheflash.tumblr.com/post/189584012736

[Trini]

Aw, I miss the Christmas episodes.

source

[Trini]

We've got more couples present this season - here's hoping for a WestAllen double date! (I will speak this into existence, LOL!)

[Trini]

The fireside chat was a really sweet scene for Barry & Iris. See? Not so hard to write in a short scene to show their bond even if they spend most of the episode apart.

 

Looking forward to the valentine's episode next week!

-----

In non-romantic relationships; just want to note that we had a  couple of scenes in 6.10 with four women all working together and talking to each other - on the show that has always struggled to have female characters interact with each other. They need to keep this up for more than one Grant Gustin-lite episode, though.

https://msanonships.tumblr.com/post/190655268519

 

"Girls Night Out" also had four women together, but there were sooo many issues with that episode.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Trini

[ursula]

11 hours ago, Trini said:

The fireside chat was a really sweet scene for Barry & Iris. See? Not so hard to write in a short scene to show their bond even if they spend most of the episode apart.

 

They had to blur the kiss though. 

[ursula]

On 12/8/2019 at 1:09 AM, Kate45 said:

Even the sexiest scene we have gotten (the deleted burnt toast scene) was written by guest writers. 

Reminds me of how in season 2, all the guest writers kept putting in WA moments (not kisses, just moments - like Barry hugging Iris after he returns from the Once and Future Flash), and the showrunner kept deleting them. 

[Trini]

Grant and Candice are great, and they always shine when they're actually given meaty material to work with, so while this new storyline of them trying to get back to each other with an imposter(?) in the mix might be heartbreaking, I'm still here for it. So far it feels like it will be a real WestAllen story.

 

8 minutes ago, rogvortex58 said:

So far not a fan of Bizarro Iris. It’s really not cool pretending to be Barry’s wife and doing all that nice stuff WA do together.

The writers are going to have to be very delicate in how they handle this. (... not a strength for them...) It might be messy, but a good outcome is doable. It depends on how they explain 'Mirror' Iris. So far she seems very similar to Original Iris.

I'm choosing to look at the glass half full and enjoy all the WestAllen scenes in the Valentine episode. They were so cute! And Grant and Candice did great with the comedy bits too.

[Trini]

'‘The Flash’: 30 Times We Fell in Love with Westallen'

[Trini]

1 hour ago, UNOSEZ said:

3 hours ago, Ann Mack said:

both male and female may want which is a white power romantic couple that "THEY" can see themselves in. Everyone knows Iris is Barry's endgame that however doesn't mean she has to always be seen. The whole introduction of Sue was catered to a specific audience again IMO.

Well.. If You've seen what I've been writing you know where i stand on this... My fear is exactly that... The show catering to some fans will have the canonical romance of sue/ Ralph take up the screentime that the ridiculously chase West-Allen do now... And with Smug Dearborn aka CatWidow she can slide into Star Labs stuff and field stuff while Iris and the League of extraordinary melanated ladies all cram into the citizen scenes... I hope we are all wrong and this isn't an Abby/Katrina situation..

...

Of course some of the audience will latch onto Ralph and Sue, but fans are gonna do that anyway. Sue is coming in because everyone gets a love interest eventually; and she is Ralph's from the comics.

I don't think WestAllen have anything to fear when it comes to side relationships on the show. They don't care about the romances of the supporting characters as much as the central romance of Barry & Iris. None of the supporting romances have ever gotten more screentime than WestAllen; even whilst there are complaints that there aren't enough WestAllen scenes.

ALL the couples are chaste.

I just don't think this is something to worry about when there's now a meaty Iris/WestAllen arc, and Ralph is absent for episodes at a time. It's season 6; it's not a Abby/Katrina situation.

[Featherhat]

I thought they were okay together. The show clearly put effort into it and in context some of the stuff they were pushing wasn't quite so cringey - Cecile's "OMG! You guys should get together! I can tell you're on the same wavelength" after 10 seconds was to set up the ending. I liked the kind of "classic PI movie music" they had in the background for some of their scenes, cheesy but fun. Sue herself was OK. Again, trying hard too make her precious and badass but that's not unusual for shows. I might get irriatated with "slick" though. Her finding out about Elongated Man worked out better because they both found out (some) of the truth about each other.

We'll see how they go in other episodes but I see no reason they'd overshadow WestAllen, especially as above, WA are currently in a huge story arc together (albeit literally separated right now). They had a big storyline this episode because it was their first and she's comes with a certain cache as his comics wife. And we learn that whatever she's up to is tied into Joe Carver and the Blackhole storyline. 

If people want to ship them because they're the only white/white couple, let them. It's a horrible way to watch a show not to mention desperate but let them enjoy their secondary romance whilst the black leading lady has the most story and screentime she's ever gotten on this show and they're actually showcasing WA as part of the story. Their minds won't be changed on WA at this point. OTOH casting a white actress doesn't mean they're pandering to the racist crowd either. It means......they cast a white actress.

I don't see how it can be an Abbey/Katrina situation. That was all centred around Ichabod as the main character and Katrina was his wife whilst Abbey was supposed to be the other co-lead. It's nothing like that here, even if she does eventually make her way to Star Labs. Other relationships on this show had the potential to be that situation far more and it didn't happen.

 

Edited February 20, 2020 by Featherhat
spelling.

[Trini]

2 hours ago, Featherhat said:

It's nothing like that here, even if she does eventually make her way to Star Labs. Other relationships on this show had the potential to be that situation far more and it didn't happen.

I mean, everyone makes it to STAR Labs at some point. They love that set. (It's encouraging that we haven't seen that place for two whole episodes, though. Good Job, Wallace!)

And Joe and Cecile, who are both regulars and are more closely connected to WestAllen, barely get their own subplot twice a season, so really, nothing to worry about based on the history of the show.

 

2 hours ago, Featherhat said:

especially as above, WA are currently in a huge story arc together (albeit literally separated right now).

And even while separated, they put in a 'Lightning Rod' moment (which probably wouldn't have happened with the previous showrunners):

-----

The similar storyline that was done on the show, Fringe, has been mentioned in the episode threads; one significant difference here is that Barry is noticing the differences.

I want Barry to find out and for them to be reunited soon, but unfortunately, it looks like this might be drawn out for another few episodes. 😭😭😭

Edited February 20, 2020 by Trini