Relationships: Speed Dating

[wingster55]

13 hours ago, Starry said:

I was thinking more about the previous episodes. The Earth-2 episode was great but happened later in the season, when Patty was already off the show.

The other instances you mentioned are bread crumbs. If you weren't a WA fan I doubt you would see Iris' reluctance to talk to Patty and Barry's fear when Iris got hurt as shippy moments.

Earth two happened two episodes after Patty left, and one after she got hurt. So it was (imo of course) the beginning of the shift back to WA. Solidified I believe when Barry tells E2 Iris that he loves her. Sidenote: I've always found that moment to be a realization for Barry. That he still loved her (and never Patty).

So the only WA breadcrumb was Iris fake "that's so great, she's great" when Barry told her he had a date with Patty. 

[Trini]

1 hour ago, Kate45 said:

If they wanted to do a romance for her, they would have. Honestly, I’ll be shocked if they don’t get together at some point in season 5. I hope they shock me!

I think if they really wanted to make Caitlin/Ralph a romance, there would be more overt teasing. I don't think it'll happen in the future, either. They still have Ralph's comic canon love interest to consider. Yes, I know comic canon isn't everything, but I feel they'd do that sooner than they'd couple up Ralph with Caitlin.
 

11 minutes ago, wingster55 said:

Earth two happened two episodes after Patty left, and one after she got hurt. So it was (imo of course) the beginning of the shift back to WA. Solidified I believe when Barry tells E2 Iris that he loves her. Sidenote: I've always found that moment to be a realization for Barry. That he still loved her (and never Patty).

I think so too.

[BeautifulFlower]

I don't understand how there are SB shippers who are STILL holding out hope that their ship will be endgame. Well, this applies to any ship from any show. 

Anyway, the writers has Barry fawning over Iris in season 1. They had Barry being jealous of Iris/Eddie. They had Barry date Linda. They showed a newspaper with Iris last name being West-Allen.

In come season 2, he dated Patty (but they clearly didn't have a problem with that). He went to Earth-2 where they showed a married WA. Iris and Barry finally decided to become a couple and kissed in the finale.

WA officially started dating in season 3. They moved in together in the mid-season finale. They were officially engaged in 3x17. 

They got married (still hate the double wedding), and now their daughter from the future is here.

What else? What else does the writers an producers have to do to convince people that SB ain't happening?

[adora721]

45 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

What else? What else does the writers an producers have to do to convince people that SB ain't happening?

There is one SB shipper who made a  recent video that basically hopes that CP will make a public nuisance that leads to her being fired, like what happened on "The O.C." to Mischa Barton. Yes, they used Mischa as a comparison to CP. That's what they've got left - firing CP. I think there are Tweets to the producers that they've been sending for years to fire CP.

Edited July 30, 2018 by adora721

[BeautifulFlower]

2 hours ago, adora721 said:

There is one SB shipper who made a  recent video that basically hopes that CP will make a public nuisance that leads to her being fired, like what happened on "The O.C." to Mischa Barton. Yes, they used Mischa as a comparison to CP. That's what they've got left - firing CP. I think there are Tweets to the producers that they've been sending for years to fire CP.

Ugh, there's already crazed SB shippers (or so they claim) making up rumors that there will be a love triangle in season 5. They actually think Barry, a happily married man, will somehow develop feelings for Caitlin just as his daughter with Iris arrives from the future.

[wingster55]

The level of delusion..is mind staggering. 

[BeautifulFlower]

1 hour ago, wingster55 said:

The level of delusion..is mind staggering. 

Yeah, sometimes I can't with their delusion.

 

Since I'm already in the relationship thread. I've always wanted to talk about this.

Most Spallen and Snowbarry shippers reasoning for why Caitlin and Patty are "perfect" for Barry is due to being in the science field. Like, what? I never understood this mentality. 

[SevenStars]

37 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Yeah, sometimes I can't with their delusion.

 

Since I'm already in the relationship thread. I've always wanted to talk about this.

Most Spallen and Snowbarry shippers reasoning for why Caitlin and Patty are "perfect" for Barry is due to being in the science field. Like, what? I never understood this mentality. 

To them, science =intelligent/smart. According them, Barry wouldn't have to dumb down his thought process when having an intellectual conversation with them, unlike Iris. 

Iris not being in the science field =stupid/idiot, to them. One of the main reason they claim it made no sense for Iris t be the leader. Because according to them, Iris wouldn't know how to use the technology in the Lab to help and lead the team cause she isn't smart enough or at all.

It's basically the stupid idea/believe that if you are not a nerd, you are not smart. 

[adora721]

Clark Kent is a reporter, not in a science field. I guess he's dumb, too and not fit to lead the Justice League!

[adora721]

7 hours ago, SevenStars said:

One of the main reason they claim it made no sense for Iris t be the leader. Because according to them, Iris wouldn't know how to use the technology in the Lab to help and lead the team cause she isn't smart enough or at all.

In rewatching the show from S1, I now wonder why Cisco or Caitlin didn't take the leadership role once Eobard was gone. Caitlin actually worked with Eobard before he hired Cisco, so she has seniority. In S2, Caitlin could have stepped up to lead, but she left the team to work for Mercury Labs. Cisco went to work with CCPD early in S2. Neither of them used their seniority in working at SL to take the reins of leadership. Why not? Perhaps because they know their own strengths and know that leading isn't one of them. 

In S2, it's Iris who puts most of the team back together and encourages Barry to be the leader. In S3, when Barry went into the speed force, once again Caitlin left the team, and Cisco didn't take the lead. Not even Harry took the lead, and we learn that his own daughter kicked him off her team on E2. So, when Iris steps up when noone else makes that choice,  she fills a vacuum that must be filled. That, in itself, is a sign of a leader because she's willing to take this immense responsibility others have declined to take.

[Katsullivan]

On 7/31/2018 at 12:58 AM, adora721 said:

In rewatching the show from S1, I now wonder why Cisco or Caitlin didn't take the leadership role once Eobard was gone. Caitlin actually worked with Eobard before he hired Cisco, so she has seniority. In S2, Caitlin could have stepped up to lead, but she left the team to work for Mercury Labs. Cisco went to work with CCPD early in S2. Neither of them used their seniority in working at SL to take the reins of leadership. Why not? Perhaps because they know their own strengths and know that leading isn't one of them. 

 

Caitlin has bailed out on the team at the start of every new season. In s2, she was in Mercury Labs. In s3!Flashpoint, she had an entirely separate life. Honestly, there was no reason whatsoever for her to have even been in the Flashpoint story. She literally did nothing except confirm that Wally was injured. She added absolutely no value. If you wanted to understand how tangential and forced the writing is to make Caitlin relevant, S3.E01 is a perfect illustration. In s4, she's part-timing as a barmaid and human trafficker, while actively trying to rid herself of her powers. 

Meanwhile, Iris is portrayed consistently in leadership.

[Trini]

Quote

... Honestly, there was no reason whatsoever for her to have even been in the Flashpoint story. She literally did nothing except confirm that Wally was injured. She added absolutely no value. If you wanted to understand how tangential and forced the writing is to make Caitlin relevant, S3.E01 is a perfect illustration. ...

As an aside, it seems (I have no direct evidence) that there's a contractual obligation to have every regular cast member (sans Cavanagh) in every episode. So I think we're stuck with them writing in characters that may not be relevant to the story in the episodes.

[BeautifulFlower]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

As an aside, it seems (I have no direct evidence) that there's a contractual obligation to have every regular cast member (sans Cavanagh) in every episode. So I think we're stuck with them writing in characters that may not be relevant to the story in the episodes.

From my understanding only the leads are contracted to be in every episode. Carlos and Danielle are in the same boat as Tom, Jesse, Hartley, etc. They're supporting mains and have different contracts. I've watched plenty of shows with ensemble casts and the supporting mains have always missed an episode. 

Even shows that don't have an ensemble cast has had the supporting mains miss some episodes (i.e.- Supernatural). So, I don't know what the deal is with Danielle and Carlos. They need to start missing some episodes. Especially sine it would be nice if we could NOT see Star Labs all the time. Take a break from that set. Also, like in season 4, most of the time Cisco and Caitlin have about 5-7 lines in an episode and rest of the time just standing making facial expressions. Why bring them on set just for that? Let them have a break.

[BeautifulFlower]

Here's the podcast Phoenics posted in Flash Media thread.

https://ladieswgumption.tumblr.com/post/176658659574/your-favorite-ladies-with-gumption

I love listening to their thoughts on the Flash female friendships. It starts at 46:37.

Using the word "cold" to describe Iris/Caitlin friendship is the perfect description.

I agree, as everyone else in the fandom, the writers waiting until season 4 to try a friendship between those two was forced. And then having Caitlin have her be Iris maid of honor? That was way too forced. It was especially forced as the writers wrote it completely one sided. Iris was the one giving but not receiving. However, this applies to all of Iris relationships. Why do they continue to have her ask how people are feeling but no one is ever there for her? These writers even have Barry just allowing people to yell at his own wife.

[phoenics]

On 7/24/2018 at 6:03 PM, Trini said:

 

We know there was some baiting (and now we know why it was so one-sided!), but I don't think it was a serious threat. Yeah, they considered Barry/Caitlin, and then clearly rejected the idea after season 1.

 

I don't think they did.  The fact that it was Caitlin who got the longest scenes with Barry in the S2 premiere AND she got to watch the video of Wells confessing and not Iris made no sense except to give B/C a shippy moment.  I also remember some tweets from CP over this time period that point to some shenanigans BTS if you read between the lines enough.  DP was still pushing for SB and she also did that trash magazine cover where they called HER the leading lady.  Also - if you count up the screentime of CP, DP and SVS, CP had the LEAST, SVS had more and DP had the most.  How ass backwards was that?

I get it - you don't see AJK as shady enough to oust CP and install DP in her place - probably using some lame excuse that SB would be more popular than WA (especially after he's done so much to sabotage it), but I think now there is a lot of evidence that he was going to do exactly that.

The DVD box sets are enough proof.

I really hope the rumors are true and CP has locked that shit down and made sure that contractually, SHE is positioned as the lead woman on the show in ALL promotional material.

[phoenics]

On 8/7/2018 at 11:02 AM, BeautifulFlower said:

Here's the podcast Phoenics posted in Flash Media thread.

https://ladieswgumption.tumblr.com/post/176658659574/your-favorite-ladies-with-gumption

I love listening to their thoughts on the Flash female friendships. It starts at 46:37.

Using the word "cold" to describe Iris/Caitlin friendship is the perfect description.

I agree, as everyone else in the fandom, the writers waiting until season 4 to try a friendship between those two was forced. And then having Caitlin have her be Iris maid of honor? That was way too forced. It was especially forced as the writers wrote it completely one sided. Iris was the one giving but not receiving. However, this applies to all of Iris relationships. Why do they continue to have her ask how people are feeling but no one is ever there for her? These writers even have Barry just allowing people to yell at his own wife.

They don't see Iris as a real human person.  She's the "other" and doesn't deserve the care they show other characters.  I'm still pissed off and angry that in S2 early on, Patty and Caitlin got more character development and "care" than Iris did.  I hated how Joe infantilized Iris in S1 but if Joe dies, I'm worried Iris might fade away.  I'm low key worried that Iris' daughter's story will sideline Iris too.  I've been burned too many times I guess.

ETA:  It's really frustrating to me that in order to enjoy a black woman in the lead role on a show where normally a white woman would occupy the same space, I have to join a defense squad for that black woman actress/character just to protect her/us from racist shenanigans threatening her spot.  Damn - I can't just enjoy the show.  This happens for white women too - but not at this level.  It's like EVERY black woman character leading a show (that's not helmed by Shonda Rhymes or Ava DuVernay) has to have a defense squad.  Damn I'm tired.

Edited August 9, 2018 by phoenics

[Starry]

6 hours ago, phoenics said:

They don't see Iris as a real human person.  She's the "other" and doesn't deserve the care they show other characters.  I'm still pissed off and angry that in S2 early on, Patty and Caitlin got more character development and "care" than Iris did.  I hated how Joe infantilized Iris in S1 but if Joe dies, I'm worried Iris might fade away.  I'm low key worried that Iris' daughter's story will sideline Iris too.  I've been burned too many times I guess.

Patty and Caitlin got way more screen time but I don't think they got real development. It may be unpopular but I still believe that Iris is the more consistent and better written character. It also doesn't help that both Caitlin and Patty were at times portrayed as horrible people. Caitlin got that Hewitt vs Jax story that put her in a bad light and Patty's arc revolved around avenging, not seeking justice for her dad. She literally became a cop to legally murder someone ? The show barely touched on Caitlin's elitism and Patty's issues (which is bad writing in itself) but that doesn't mean those problems weren't there.

[adora721]

13 hours ago, phoenics said:

I get it - you don't see AJK as shady enough to oust CP and install DP in her place - probably using some lame excuse that SB would be more popular than WA (especially after he's done so much to sabotage it), but I think now there is a lot of evidence that he was going to do exactly that.

 

Speaking of trying to oust CP, here's a Collider interview excerpt with just AJK and DP about Cait's role in S2:

Will Caitlin be stepping into more of a leadership role at S.T.A.R. Labs?

PANABAKER: Absolutely! The old dynamic from Season 1 was that this was Wells’ S.T.A.R. Labs. He created it, so he was the boss and we all followed along. This year, it’s feeling a little bit different. We’re trying to figure it out. Whoever has the most expertise or passion about something tends to be the one we follow.

KREISBERG: It’s a conscience effort on our part, too. The thing that Iris adds to those scenes, when she’s in them, is the heart that they don’t always have, being a bunch of scientists talking about things. But Caitlin, especially, has taken the reins, in a lot of ways.

[adora721]

On 8/4/2018 at 9:22 PM, BeautifulFlower said:

From my understanding only the leads are contracted to be in every episode.

This would explain why CP only had 12 words in the 2x8 episode, "Legends of Tomorrow". What a shameful use  or misuse of the leading lady!

[SevenStars]

Base on what I have seen and heard, I believe that if fans and some bts people who have some leverage, didn't fight hard for Iris West to keep her position on the show, she would be sidelined, put on the shelf until needed for special occasions. Cause there is no explanation for the way Iris was sideline hard in the past when you consider the fact that Iris is a big part of the Flash journey in the comic, the daughter of one of the main character,  the best-friend and love interest of the lead character on the show. So that and some other things tells me that if it wasn't for the fans pushing hard from the jump for Iris and some bts people supporting her, Iris wouldn't be thriving like she is and another character/actress would be thriving in the leading lady role. It was never a giving that what we are seeing now for Iris would have happen. Some people had to push hard to make it happen. 

[phoenics]

17 hours ago, Starry said:

Patty and Caitlin got way more screen time but I don't think they got real development. It may be unpopular but I still believe that Iris is the more consistent and better written character. It also doesn't help that both Caitlin and Patty were at times portrayed as horrible people. Caitlin got that Hewitt vs Jax story that put her in a bad light and Patty's arc revolved around avenging, not seeking justice for her dad. She literally became a cop to legally murder someone ? The show barely touched on Caitlin's elitism and Patty's issues (which is bad writing in itself) but that doesn't mean those problems weren't there.

The only reason I disagree is because while Patty/Cait came off badly and inconsistent, they still got oodles more screentime to have a point of view.  We got WAY more point of view from both of them well before we ever really got that from Iris.  And even if a character is coming off badly, when the character gets a point of view so we understand why (even if it's still stupid) that character seems more fleshed out.

My issue is that the writers tried to take care of Patty/Cait.  They rolled out the red carpet in S2A for either one of them to be with Barry - seriously.  That moment where Barry and Cait watched the wells video together?  That was intentional.  

And the interview up above with AJK pimping DP's Caitlin to make her the leader?  He and DP were SOOOOOOO gonna screw us and CP.

There is a reason why CP - who knows folks watch her every move on SM - unfollowed DP after AJK was fired for being a sexist pig.

All I know is I'm going to be watching DP like a hawk for her directorial debut for any kind of shade, favoritism or nonsense and I will raise hell over it if I see any.

[Kate45]

12 hours ago, adora721 said:

Speaking of trying to oust CP, here's a Collider interview excerpt with just AJK and DP about Cait's role in S2:

Will Caitlin be stepping into more of a leadership role at S.T.A.R. Labs?

PANABAKER: Absolutely! The old dynamic from Season 1 was that this was Wells’ S.T.A.R. Labs. He created it, so he was the boss and we all followed along. This year, it’s feeling a little bit different. We’re trying to figure it out. Whoever has the most expertise or passion about something tends to be the one we follow.

KREISBERG: It’s a conscience effort on our part, too. The thing that Iris adds to those scenes, when she’s in them, is the heart that they don’t always have, being a bunch of scientists talking about things. But Caitlin, especially, has taken the reins, in a lot of ways.

So, this interview was a lie, lol. When did she ever appear like a leader in SL? 

Also, AJK was notorious for lying back in the day. He said in other interviews that Iris was becoming a leader at SL in season 2. He would tell so many lies and change them based on who he would speak to. 

On 8/5/2018 at 12:22 AM, BeautifulFlower said:

From my understanding only the leads are contracted to be in every episode. Carlos and Danielle are in the same boat as Tom, Jesse, Hartley, etc. They're supporting mains and have different contracts. I've watched plenty of shows with ensemble casts and the supporting mains have always missed an episode. 

I have no idea why each actor has been in every episode save for Tom. Jesse also took off one episode, 4.14. I don't think its a contract thing, but if you don't appear, you don't get paid. I think they are trying to be nice by allowing everyone to be in every episode. Although, I think that will change in season 5. It will make the storytelling much better to move away from that model, in my opinion. 

[Starry]

@phoenics You're right about Caitlin and Patty getting more POV than Iris. I don't think anyone can disagree with that.

The thing about Snowbarry in s2 is that they didn't get meaningful scenes outside of the premiere. But then Barry had Patty so I guess it was fine as long he didn't have scenes with Iris ?

 

5 hours ago, Kate45 said:

I have no idea why each actor has been in every episode save for Tom. Jesse also took off one episode, 4.14. I don't think its a contract thing, but if you don't appear, you don't get paid. I think they are trying to be nice by allowing everyone to be in every episode. Although, I think that will change in season 5. It will make the storytelling much better to move away from that model, in my opinion. 

It's time for them to be nice to actors not named Carlos Valdes and Danielle Panabaker and let them cross over. Overall Cisco and Caitlin have appared in more episodes than the leading lady because they're in almost all the crossover episodes. They even get mini crossovers. It's ridiculous. As much as I love Cisco I hope both him and Caitlin don't get to cross over this year so other characters can get their turn. 

Edited August 10, 2018 by Starry
spelling mistake

[adora721]

7 hours ago, Starry said:

Overall Cisco and Caitlin have appared in more episodes than the leading lady because they're in almost all the crossover episodes.

Forgive me if I've said this before, but I thought that Kendra working at Jitters, Iris' former workplace, would have been a great opportunity to have Iris befriend her. Iris could share tips about working there with her and vouch for Cisco being  a good guy. A friendship could have developed between the two culminating in Vandal Savage mistakenly kidnapping Iris thinking she was Kendra or taking both when he tried to kidnap Kendra.  Instead of Felicity finding old newspaper articles about Savage, Iris could have done that on the "Arrow" episode. Iris could have also helped throw the media off the scent, too, to give the teams the opportunity to take down Savage without too much scrutiny from the press or she could have spun the press coverage to their benefit. Iris could have been there as a sounding board for Fefe  in the "Arrow" episode when Fefe had her massive meltdown over Oliver's secret son; Iris could certainly relate to how that feels because of Barry's secret.  

It's like the writers either forgot how to incorporate Iris or they were told to deliberately leave her out. Even in the S3 crossover, they had Iris basically babysitting Wally. Can it be true that they couldn't find something for Iris to contribute in those two crossovers?  We've seen Iris fight and we've seen her use a fire arm, which her cop father trained her to do.  We've seen her strategize and be brave and smart under pressure, but they wrote nothing for those two crossovers for the leading lady....SMH

ETA: I've always thought the crossovers were a kind of mega advertising blitz for all the shows. Someone who normally doesn't watch one of the shows gets a taste of what that show is like; the goal, of course, is to pique that viewer's interest in watching that show. So, then why does it seem like the leading lady of the "Flash" doesn't get to play with the "popular kids" of the others shows much? Did the EPs  think having her front and center in the crossovers wouldn't draw new viewership? It makes me wonder. The irony, of course, is that the "Flash" is the most popular show on the CW with Iris West as leading lady.

Edited August 10, 2018 by adora721

[cambridgeguy]

1 hour ago, adora721 said:

ETA: I've always thought the crossovers were a kind of mega advertising blitz for all the shows. Someone who normally doesn't watch one of the shows gets a taste of what that show is like; the goal, of course, is to pique that viewer's interest in watching that show. So, then why does it seem like the leading lady of the "Flash" doesn't get to play with the "popular kids" of the others shows much? Did the EPs  think having her front and center in the crossovers wouldn't draw new viewership? It makes me wonder. The irony, of course, is that the "Flash" is the most popular show on the CW with Iris West as leading lady.

I think the logic is as follows.  Do you have superpowers?  No?  Are you a good enough fighter to be a costumed vigilante or super spy?  No?  Are you a tech/med/sci genius?  No?  Are you a tactical genius/team leader?  Too bad, we've got Oliver Queen and/or Sara Lance to handle that.  Enjoy your time off!

[adora721]

4 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

I think the logic is as follows.  Do you have superpowers?  No?  Are you a good enough fighter to be a costumed vigilante or super spy?  No?  Are you a tech/med/sci genius?  No?  Are you a tactical genius/team leader?  Too bad, we've got Oliver Queen and/or Sara Lance to handle that.  Enjoy your time off!

Then how in the world do they handle this in the comics with characters like Lois Lane or Iris West? 

Edited August 10, 2018 by adora721

[Kate45]

11 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

I think the logic is as follows.  Do you have superpowers?  No?  Are you a good enough fighter to be a costumed vigilante or super spy?  No?  Are you a tech/med/sci genius?  No?  Are you a tactical genius/team leader?  Too bad, we've got Oliver Queen and/or Sara Lance to handle that.  Enjoy your time off!

It doesn’t work like that at all. Perfect example? Martian Manhunter who has yet to appear in any crossover (save for the musical on Flash) . He’s one of (if not the) most powerful superheroes on any of the shows. Why exclude him?

Also, Diggle doesn’t tend to have a large role. He almost wasn’t in the last one. Same for Mr. Terrific, Rene, Dinah, Guardian, etc.

Also, it’s so obvious that favoritism plays a part in the crossover selection. Another example: the season 2 crossover for The Flash. Iris had one line in the Flash episode, and doesn’t appear in the Arrow episode. On the other hand, Caitlin had a storyline in the Flash episode with Harry and Patty. Caitlin also crossed over to the Arrow episode for seemingly no reason. She literally had no speaking lines, and only stands in the background for 3 or 4 scenes. Why couldn’t Iris do that? 

Cisco and Barry were main players, but Caitlin shouldn’t have been in the crossover on Arrow. It was favoritism that got her there, as far as I’m concerned. 

I’m cautiously optimistic about this years crossover. Danielle Nicolet and Jessica Parker Kennedy seem to think their characters will be in it based on an interview this past summer, which makes me think that Iris will be in it. 

The best part? It’s the first AJK and Guggie free one. That’s a reason to celebrate! I hope it’s the best one yet. But, if Iris isn’t in it, I doubt I’ll actually watch. I don’t want to return to the dark days of Iris not being in the crossover. 

[cambridgeguy]

7 hours ago, Kate45 said:

It doesn’t work like that at all. Perfect example? Martian Manhunter who has yet to appear in any crossover (save for the musical on Flash) . He’s one of (if not the) most powerful superheroes on any of the shows. Why exclude him?

You do realize that some of that was tongue-in-cheek, right?  The J'onn thing is pretty consistent with how he's treated on his own show though.  Sure, sit back at HQ even though it sure would be handy to have a superpowered martian out in the field.  This show has occasionally had the same issue, especially with Wally.

That being said, Iris is still doing better than her counterparts on the other shows.  Laurel Lance was the original female lead/love interest and she's been reduced to supporting.  Same with James Olsen.  Maybe Iris fans will really have to worry if she inexplicably turns into a costumed vigilante.

Edited August 11, 2018 by cambridgeguy

[phoenics]

4 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

You do realize that some of that was tongue-in-cheek, right?  The J'onn thing is pretty consistent with how he's treated on his own show though.  Sure, sit back at HQ even though it sure would be handy to have a superpowered martian out in the field.  This show has occasionally had the same issue, especially with Wally.

That being said, Iris is still doing better than her counterparts on the other shows.  Laurel Lance was the original female lead/love interest and she's been reduced to supporting.  Same with James Olsen.  Maybe Iris fans will really have to worry if she inexplicably turns into a costumed vigilante.

 

James got relegated to second class status well before he put on a costume.  He lost his romantic lead spot and THAT is what led to him being backburnered and ignored.  And then they replaced him.

And we all know what happened to Laurel and partly why.  She was cool with AJK too, right?  And once he left Arrow - her cover was gone.  The only AJK "friend" left is DP - I think the DP/AJK damage to CP's Iris West (and to CP herself) is done now and DP will have to sink or swim on her own instead of riding on the coattails of her producer friend who GAVE her the role (she didn't have to audition) and then tried to sabotage his own leading lady to prop his friend up.  But he's gone now thank God.

We know why Iris was treated poorly and it had a lot more to do with AJK/DP being shady than anything else.  That's not to say that some folks won't still try to be shady but we'll still have CP's back.  I don't think James/J'Onn have quite the same level of DefenseSquad protection.

Edited August 11, 2018 by phoenics

[Trini]

20 hours ago, Kate45 said:

...

I’m cautiously optimistic about this years crossover. Danielle Nicolet and Jessica Parker Kennedy seem to think their characters will be in it based on an interview this past summer, which makes me think that Iris will be in it. 

The best part? It’s the first AJK and Guggie free one. That’s a reason to celebrate! I hope it’s the best one yet. But, if Iris isn’t in it, I doubt I’ll actually watch. I don’t want to return to the dark days of Iris not being in the crossover. 

After last year's debacle, I have zero expectations for the crossover; especially for Iris. I actually don't want any of the Arrow writers touching her. I used to want her to crossover more, but not anymore. (Actually, I'm open to Supergirl crossovers - but that's it.)

No AJK or Guggie is definitely a bonus this time; but until more info comes out, it seems like the crossover is going to be mostly Batwoman and Arrow, so I'm keeping my expectations low.

---

To bring this back to relationships; still hoping that Iris will get to meet James someday, and she gets to talk with him and/or Kara about journalism. I mean, Cisco has his 'science bros', right?

[Kate45]

14 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

You do realize that some of that was tongue-in-cheek, right?  The J'onn thing is pretty consistent with how he's treated on his own show though.  Sure, sit back at HQ even though it sure would be handy to have a superpowered martian out in the field.  This show has occasionally had the same issue, especially with Wally.

That being said, Iris is still doing better than her counterparts on the other shows.  Laurel Lance was the original female lead/love interest and she's been reduced to supporting.  Same with James Olsen.  Maybe Iris fans will really have to worry if she inexplicably turns into a costumed vigilante.

Yes, I knew you were being tongue-in-cheek. However, that same type of argument is used frequently as to why Iris isn’t/shouldn’t be in the crossovers. 

That’s why I mentioned that I believe that favoritism plays a large role, because certain characters are always in the crossovers even when it doesn’t actually make sense for them to be there. If it can be done for others, it can be done for Iris. That was my point. 

[Trini]

[BeautifulFlower]

It still baffles me that there are people still fault Iris for the reason Linda/Barry failed.

[Trini]

Posting this here since Grant and Candice give a bit of their takes on WestAllen: https://youtu.be/x7i9Y01dvaM

[wingster55]

On 8/21/2018 at 5:38 PM, BeautifulFlower said:

It still baffles me that there are people still fault Iris for the reason Linda/Barry failed.

To be fair...indirectly it was. 

[adora721]

Spoiler

"Dr. Snow is an extremely intelligent geneticist who has been MIA for decades. Upon returning to Central City, he will try his best to make up for lost time with Caitlin (Danielle Panabaker). But what Caitlin doesn’t know is that Thomas is hiding a big secret — because he wouldn’t be a new Arroweverse character without one."

 

The irony is how similar this is to the Francine/Iris story, and it would be a good reason to improve the friendship between Cait and Iris over having supposedly dead parents returning to their lives after decades. However, most likely, the writing will treat Cait like her experience is unique and ignore the fact that the same thing happened to Iris. Somehow, Cait's experience will be handled better or treated as special. I'll be shocked if the writers have Iris chime in to let Cait know that she knows what Cait is feeling.

Edited August 23, 2018 by adora721

[adora721]

3 hours ago, wingster55 said:

To be fair...indirectly it was. 

How so?

[BeautifulFlower]

3 hours ago, wingster55 said:

To be fair...indirectly it was. 

Linda asked Iris what was going on with Barry. Iris didn't even say directly it was her that Barry was trying to get over. That's what most people seem to fault Iris for and view as the reason Linda/Barry.  These people are solely blaming Iris, while ignoring the fact Barry is the reason.

I can understand Iris being indirectly responsible as Barry was only dating Linda to try to move on. I agree with you on that. But as I said, these people believe Iris is directly responsible, no blame on Barry whatsoever.

[wingster55]

44 minutes ago, adora721 said:

How so?

Iris confessed her feelings and they kissed. Barry erased that from existence, but he remembered it. Thus immediately breaking up with Linda so he could be with Iris. Ergo, indirectly they did break up because of Iris. I believe Linda even said so in that scene. 

 

41 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Linda asked Iris what was going on with Barry. Iris didn't even say directly it was her that Barry was trying to get over. That's what most people seem to fault Iris for and view as the reason Linda/Barry.  These people are solely blaming Iris, while ignoring the fact Barry is the reason.

I can understand Iris being indirectly responsible as Barry was only dating Linda to try to move on. I agree with you on that. But as I said, these people believe Iris is directly responsible, no blame on Barry whatsoever.

Well that's another SB issue. 

[BeautifulFlower]

3 hours ago, wingster55 said:

Iris confessed her feelings and they kissed. Barry erased that from existence, but he remembered it. Thus immediately breaking up with Linda so he could be with Iris. Ergo, indirectly they did break up because of Iris. I believe Linda even said so in that scene. 

 

Well that's another SB issue. 

Oh, yeah I didn't even think of that being an SB issue. However, I've seen people who said they don't ship (then again, could've been a cover). This reminds of the incest thing. The people who claim to not ship WA due to it being incest seem to be mostly disgusted with Iris, while shipping Barry with someone else. Ship what you want, but stop ignoring Barry's faults.

[phoenics]

Thought you guys might like to see this deleted WestAllen scene where Barry just got out of prison and he's, um, extra amorous... https://www.etonline.com/the-flash-barry-and-iris-cant-stop-making-out-in-this-season-4-deleted-scene-exclusive-108569

Edited August 27, 2018 by phoenics

[Trini]

Okay, so they actually wrote and filmed this scene, so which one of the editors/showrunners/network execs hates us??? ????

 

 

Another deleted WestAllen scene here: https://www.eonline.com/news/963045/the-flash-s-barry-and-iris-have-some-wedding-planning-to-do-in-season-4-deleted-scene

[wingster55]

I'm still waiting for ANYONE to release the cut scene from I believe 2.03

[phoenics]

3 hours ago, wingster55 said:

I'm still waiting for ANYONE to release the cut scene from I believe 2.03

Awwww Grant's infamous "heart to heart with bae" scene... I'm still salty we haven't gotten to see it.  I swear they refuse to let WA be great.

[Trini]

Some random musings on a couple of topics that have come up before:

When it comes to signaling a potential romance (or "'ship teasing”, if you want), as far as I've observed, TV writers tend to never be subtle about it. I was thinking back on shows I’ve watched years ago and shows that I’ve only recently picked up, and if the writers are going to do a romance, they want the audience to know it and root for it, 98%* of the time. It’s better storytelling (especially for TV) if they can build up to it, and take the audience along for the journey.

There are, of course,  examples of pairings that happened that were intended to be surprises/shocks for the audience, but if it something that is supposed to last longer than that, most times there’s some clue beforehand, even if it’s in that same episode. Generally, there’s no point in hiding something like that from the audience. Signs can be subtle, but they still have to be there.

And I've found this signaling happens whether it’s a long-term romance, short-term romance, a one-episode fling, potential romances that may never actually get to play out, or even pairings that will never, ever 'go there’, but the show wants to highlight the chemistry of the characters/actors.  (Then there are examples where - if a show lasts long enough - the writers might wink/throw a bone at fans of a pairing that will never really happen.)

I mean, we knew Cynthia was Cisco’s love interest because every single interaction they had in her intro episode was in some way flirty**. And on the other end of the spectrum, there’s a different show I seen where there are two characters with many good reasons to never ever get together, but the writers can’t help giving them a few flirty lines, because the actors generate sparks in their scenes!

**And that reminds me that there needs to be some degree of reciprocity between the two characters, even in an unrequited love story. Because it's hard to root for a pairing that has a 0% chance of happening. And the writers generally don't want to make it hard for the audience to root for the couple they want showcase. (It can totally happen by accident, though.) For instance, on Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, I knew that the lead character, Rebecca, was going to actually going to be able to get together with her crush the moment when he started showing signs that he liked and respected her in a (slightly) deeper way -- when it was previously very one-sided.

How much and far the writers go with signaling depends on the type of show, and how important romantic relationships are to the show and its structure overall. Sometimes there’s one main relationship that *is* the whole show; and then there are shows where significant others barely exist, or they only show up for specific reasons/plots. I also think there are differences in tropes and execution if a potential romance is going to be long-term or not, but not every show has a 'One True Love' format, so romances might be a string of short-term relationships.

*(Completely unscientific number)

---

Thoughts? Counterpoints?

[Trini]

On 8/27/2018 at 12:39 PM, phoenics said:

Thought you guys might like to see this deleted WestAllen scene where Barry just got out of prison and he's, um, extra amorous... https://www.etonline.com/the-flash-barry-and-iris-cant-stop-making-out-in-this-season-4-deleted-scene-exclusive-108569

Where's ruby24? This is probably the closest thing to a sex scene this show will give us, and I need to know if she saw it!

...More thoughts on that scene:
Okay, so I can see why the other deleted scenes got cut, but this one really should have stayed in. I'm a bit biased because I like Barry & Iris, but I think this was also an important scene for Barry - our hero lead. It completes the mini-arc of him (and Iris) dealing with his incarceration, and shows him adjusting to being back. What was the reasoning to not have this happy moment for the hero?? (Especially since he was going to lose his job in the very same episode.) Yeah, so whoever is making these editing decisions needs to get over whatever is keeping WestAllen scenes (a big part of the 'heart' of the show) a low priority.

Also, $5 says that the original line was "horny" not "clingy".  ?

[ruby24]

I've seen it. It's pretty bad that they cut this, considering the almost total lack of intimate scenes these two get.

On the bright side, after skipping over their first time, a post-speedforce reunion, and a love scene post-wedding, I suppose it's good that there was somebody who thought that implied sex was called for between them after him getting out of prison at least. That could possibly be a sign that there may be some kind of bed scenes in the future for them, if the network doesn't cut it.

[Trini]

And one more thing about 'ship teasing' I forgot: One sure sign that the show/writers want the audience to take note of a potential romantic relationship is if there are other characters in the narrative that comment on the pairing. I've seen one show that did this so much with its OTP that it became almost a running joke how guest stars, etc. would always somehow point out how the couple should be together!

They seemed to do this a lot in Season 1 with Barry & Iris; with Joe, Felicity, Oliver, Caitlin, Eddie, and Linda (and more I'm forgetting) all commenting on Barry & Iris' feelings for each other.

--------

And the other random musings topic: love triangles.
I feel like a real (or better) love triangle is one where all three corners interact. Especially for TV, so that the most story/drama can be milked from it. The show did this with Barry/Iris/Eddie. It could have been better, though. Eddie was shortchanged a lot, even if he was destined to be cut out of the triangle eventually.

There were Barry/Iris scenes, Iris/Eddie scenes, and Barry/Eddie scenes; but most importantly (for drama's sake), each of these pairings had conversations about the other corner of the triangle. Barry/Eddie could have had more scenes, IMO. They also had the Barry/Linda/Iris 'triangle' interact like this, too. (I know Iris was with Eddie, and they all were on that double date; but I don't think Eddie was really part of that arc with Linda.) I think this kind of structure works to spread out the "weight" of the relationships -- it's not all on one corner of the triangle to decide who to be with. [I'm not sure if I phrased that the best way!]

And I want to say they also did this minimally with Barry/Patty/Iris; but I can't remember if Barry and Patty ever talked about Iris. (Daily reminder how much they dropped the ball in 2A...)

Thoughts?

Edited August 30, 2018 by Trini

[Katsullivan]

10 hours ago, Trini said:

They seemed to do this a lot in Season 1 with Barry & Iris; with Joe, Felicity, Oliver, Caitlin, Eddie, and Linda (and more I'm forgetting) all commenting on Barry & Iris feelings for each other.

I remember Felicity telling Barry that he was "clueless" about Caitlin's feelings for him. It was completely apropos of nothing and ridiculous, like most Snowbarry baiting, but it was there.

 

10 hours ago, Trini said:

And I want to say they also did this minimally with Barry/Patty/Iris; but I can't remember if Barry and Patty ever talked about Iris. (Daily reminder how much they dropped the ball in 2A...)

Because 2A was actively trying to un-make Westallen. 

 

On 8/27/2018 at 4:23 PM, Trini said:

Okay, so they actually wrote and filmed this scene, so which one of the editors/showrunners/network execs hates us??? ????

 

 

 

Another deleted WestAllen scene here: https://www.eonline.com/news/963045/the-flash-s-barry-and-iris-have-some-wedding-planning-to-do-in-season-4-deleted-scene

Well this is yummy. So naturally, they had to delete it. Can't depict a black woman being loved and desired by the leading man, especially in a season when they had banned the white self-insert's love life. If Caitlin has to be sexless, then by gawd, Iris will be too.

[ruby24]

When did Felicity tell Barry that? I don't remember that.