Relationships: Speed Dating

[adora721]

55 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

know people have opinions on things, but I don't buy Caitlin being Barry's best friend. I just don't. They don't come off as being best friends like Barry/Cisco do

I agree wholeheartedly. I'm not sure why people have made so much of Barry and Caitlin's closeness in season 1. Season 1 was all about establishing trust among these four people thrown into a unique situation together. That's why so much time and focus was spent on these relationships.

To a large degree, Caitlin was a fill in for Iris as a confidante (not a romantic interest) since Barry couldn't confide in Iris completely as he normally would have. There are some who claimed that Iris took Caitlin's spot or stole Caitlin's lines in season 2 onwards, but that's only because they ignored the fact that Barry has always looked to Iris for support for years before even knowing Caitlin or Cisco, which was established in season 1.

Once that trust was established among the burgeoning team members and Iris was in on the secret, Barry's closeness to Caitlin diminished since his real confidante, Iris, was now in on his secret.

I believe that Barry has called only two people his best friends, Iris and Cisco, with Iris being at the top of that list. 

I find it interesting the way the writers have really diminished the closeness of Caitlin and Cisco this season, especially compared to season 3. Cisco (and Julian) were the only ones to prioritize Caitlin's dilemma as KF in season 3. 

Edited April 27, 2018 by adora721

[BeautifulFlower]

3 hours ago, adora721 said:

 

I find it interesting the way the writers have really diminished the closeness of Caitlin and Cisco this season, especially compared to season 3. Cisco (and Julian) were the only ones to prioritize Caitlin's dilemma as KF in season 3. 

I don't think they diminished Cisco and Caitlin closeness that much. 

[Kate45]

3 hours ago, adora721 said:

I agree wholeheartedly. I'm not sure why people have made so much of Barry and Caitlin's closeness in season 1. Season 1 was all about establishing trust among these four people thrown into a unique situation together. That's why so much time and focus was spent on these relationships.

To a large degree, Caitlin was a fill in for Iris as a confidante (not a romantic interest) since Barry couldn't confide in Iris completely as he normally would have. There are some who claimed that Iris took Caitlin's spot or stole Caitlin's lines in season 2 onwards, but that's only because they ignored the fact that Barry has always looked to Iris for support for years before even knowing Caitlin or Cisco, which was established in season 1.

Once that trust was established among the burgeoning team members and Iris was in on the secret, Barry's closeness to Caitlin diminished since his real confidante, Iris, was now in on his secret.

I believe that Barry has called only two people his best friends, Iris and Cisco, with Iris being at the top of that list. 

I find it interesting the way the writers have really diminished the closeness of Caitlin and Cisco this season, especially compared to season 3. Cisco (and Julian) were the only ones to prioritize Caitlin's dilemma as KF in season 3. 

Yes, to all of this. 

One note, Barry called Cisco and Caitlin his best friends in 3x07 in the scene with Iris after Caitlin is locked up. That's the only time I can remember Barry referring to her in that manner. 

Barry and Caitlin pretty much talked about pining over Iris and Ronnie in season 1. Beyond that, they didn't have that much of a friendship. To me, leaving those "grown up" conversations to Barry and Caitlin was about infantilizing Cisco. You can especially see how low on the totem pole Caitlin falls when Barry hardly cared about saving her from Zoom, or when he didn't look for her in FlashPoint. It was very obvious in that situation. 

I believe they have absolutely played down the relationship between Cisco and Caitlin this year. Caitlin claiming to have no one to confide in about her KF situation in 4x05, supports that idea. 

[Trini]

23 hours ago, Kate45 said:

I believe they have absolutely played down the relationship between Cisco and Caitlin this year. Caitlin claiming to have no one to confide in about her KF situation in 4x05, supports that idea. 

They just seem to prefer to give Cisco scenes with Harry.

I'm not pleased with everything on Supergirl this season, but I appreciated that they've tried to have different pairings of characters, and had a few character-focused episodes/A-plots. I think The Flash should try more of that. They tend to be very superficial about most people who aren't Barry; and that's a problem 4 seasons in, when they insist on having all the characters around all the time. And when there's stuff happening to them that really should have more profound effects.

[adora721]

On 4/27/2018 at 7:36 PM, Kate45 said:

I believe they have absolutely played down the relationship between Cisco and Caitlin this year. Caitlin claiming to have no one to confide in about her KF situation in 4x05, supports that idea. 

Yes; so much yes. This was another bad case of retconning. Cisco was the first person on the team that Caitlin told about her burgeouning KF powers in season 3. He helped her confess to the team. Cisco (and Julian) was her biggest supporter, even after her many attempts to kill him. Cisco brought her back into the fold in season 4. Why, oh, why would Caitlin say she had no one to talk to? Just to create a SnoWest friendship? Come on! 

 

Do they not bring back the same writers for these? Or do the new writers not watch the older episodes or read the previous scripts to make sure there is continuity? I guess not....

Edited April 30, 2018 by adora721

[LeslieMusicFan]

On 4/3/2018 at 5:29 AM, paulvdb said:

Dawson and Joey on Dawson's Creek were the first (and so far only) couple I could think of.

I don't think they were so much dropped per se lol I think Pacey and Joey were supposed to be just a catalyst for Dawson and Joey angst but Pacey and Joey proved to be more popular due to Katie Holmes and Joshua Jackson's incredible chemistry so they just stuck with the triangle (did a crappy job at it) but to me it was always a no brainer. Joey and Pacey were DC's Otp imo.

[BeautifulFlower]

On 4/27/2018 at 9:36 PM, Kate45 said:

 

Barry and Caitlin pretty much talked about pining over Iris and Ronnie in season 1. Beyond that, they didn't have that much of a friendship. To me, leaving those "grown up" conversations to Barry and Caitlin was about infantilizing Cisco. You can especially see how low on the totem pole Caitlin falls when Barry hardly cared about saving her from Zoom, or when he didn't look for her in FlashPoint. It was very obvious in that situation. 

I believe they have absolutely played down the relationship between Cisco and Caitlin this year. Caitlin claiming to have no one to confide in about her KF situation in 4x05, supports that idea. 

Oh it was in 4x05? Yeah, I tried to suppress that episode.

 

Yeah, that's why I'm not sold on them being "best friends". Caitlin is literally a last priority to him. He treats anything that happens to her as an afterthought. Speaking of Barry/Caitlin, I know they haven't shared that many scenes anymore, but the theory that the SB fandom came up with is ridiculous. If you don't know, some think the writers stopped giving them scenes, because they recognized the chemistry between Barry/Caitlin, and decided to with Barry/Iris instead. I just don't understand how you can come up with a theory like that.

[phoenics]

1 hour ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Oh it was in 4x05? Yeah, I tried to suppress that episode.

 

Yeah, that's why I'm not sold on them being "best friends". Caitlin is literally a last priority to him. He treats anything that happens to her as an afterthought. Speaking of Barry/Caitlin, I know they haven't shared that many scenes anymore, but the theory that the SB fandom came up with is ridiculous. If you don't know, some think the writers stopped giving them scenes, because they recognized the chemistry between Barry/Caitlin, and decided to with Barry/Iris instead. I just don't understand how you can come up with a theory like that.

These are the same people who are theorizing that the mystery girl is Barry and Caitlin's child, but that she gets her coloring from Joe.   #cuckoo4CocoaPuffs

[BeautifulFlower]

8 minutes ago, phoenics said:

These are the same people who are theorizing that the mystery girl is Barry and Caitlin's child, but that she gets her coloring from Joe.   #cuckoo4CocoaPuffs

Oh god, how could I forget that theory. That theory is on another level. I remember reading that and 3 things came to mind.

1. They clearly don't like Barry/Iris

2. They don't know how being biracial works. The mystery girl's actress is half black/half white in real life. 

3. That person probably thinks Barry is Joe's actual blood related son.

[SevenStars]

1 hour ago, BeautifulFlower said:

 If you don't know, some think the writers stopped giving them scenes, because they recognized the chemistry between Barry/Caitlin, and decided to with Barry/Iris instead. I just don't understand how you can come up with a theory like that.

I think this theory exist cause I heard CW did it on TVD show with the actors who played Damon and Bonnie. 

[BeautifulFlower]

51 minutes ago, SevenStars said:

I think this theory exist cause I heard CW did it on TVD show with the actors who played Damon and Bonnie. 

Yeah maybe. However, whenever I see this theory, it comes off as they think Snowbarry were going to be the main couple, but went with WestAllen instead. That's my interpretation of it.

[Starry]

10 hours ago, SevenStars said:

I think this theory exist cause I heard CW did it on TVD show with the actors who played Damon and Bonnie. 

That theory exists because they can't fathom that Grant has more chemistry with the black woman. They needed to come up with this backwards logic to make sense of Snowbarry not happening, even though no show in the history of television has passed up the opportunity to mine the chemistry between two actors...

...unless one of those actors is a POC. There was a degree of spite behind the writing for Bonnie. I didn't ship them but Bonnie and Damon had something going on in the books the series was based on. Bonnie was a more significant character than Caroline but the latter got all the screen time, stories and love interests. Caitlin on the other hand has no significant role in the Flash comics but the show has turned her into a major supporting character who gets treated like a delicate flower. She and Bonnie are on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Fanboys believe the same thing about Patty Spivot, that she was written off because she and Barry had too much chemistry. Let's forget the fact that Patty was there, as love interest, because those same writers who were apparently so scared by her "chemistry" with Barry wanted her to. Let's forget that it's Iris who disappeared during the Patty era.

[Trini]

Cross-posting some of Helbing's comments on the DeVoes:

Quote

“Kim is amazing,” Helbing said. “Kim [Engelbrecht] and Neil [Sandilands] together are an amazing team, but I think one thing that we didn’t realize was how much the emotional story was going to be reliant on Kim. Her performance this whole season has just been mind-boggling. She’s so amazing, and to be up on set and watch her do that in person is something to behold. Writing them as a couple, what’s so great about The Thinker this season as well is, it’s really this love story that goes awry.”

The episode actually uses some of the same language tonight that Helbing did when he spoke with us.

“What kind of future do I have if you’re not by my side?” DeVoe asked his wife Marlize in tonight’s episode, “Therefore She Is.”

“Marlize DeVoe is the true believer,” Helbing told us. “She was somebody that really wants to fix humanity and she really believes that, but as this season has progressed and DeVoe got more and more intelligent and less and less emotional — that’s the reason why he created the Weeper, was he knew that going in, ‘I’m going to need something to keep my wife by my side.’ But I don’t think that he even saw how detached emotionally he was going to become and how that was going to affect Marlize and the two of them.”

I think Kim and Neil do have good chemistry, and they're both good actors in general. They did do some parallels between the DeVoes and the West-Allens, but I think they could have done a little more throughout the season, just to really emphasize it.

[Trini]

Tear my heart out and rip it to pieces why don't you, Carlos:

I knew the possibility of a break-up was there, but this was still so sad. At least it was mutual, and they still care for each other (Cisco used the 'L' word!!), but they didn't agree on terms. So the possibility of them getting back together if something changes is definitely there.

I wish there had been more mentions of Cynthia and the Cisco/Cynthia relationship throughout the season - especially when the dialog acknowledged that they'd been together for 'almost a year'. Clearly a significant relationship for Cisco (if not the show - SIGH). I know it was an actress availability thing, but it sucks that we finally get to see her again and it's the same episode they break up. :(

I'm just not sure how they will move forward with them when it depends on if Jessica Camacho is available or not. The show seems to have trouble getting people to commit to Vancouver.

[phoenics]

Well unless Taken climbs out of its pit of low ratings, she might be back.  

[ruby24]

So since two scenes of shirtless Barry in bed were technically unnecessary to the episode, I'm going to assume that at least one of the writers of this ep (both women I see) agrees with me or at least heard the questions of why they never show Barry and Iris in bed together and decided to cram it in at least once before the season ended. 

But I am still holding you to a sex scene or a post-coital scene at SOME POINT, show. You will not get away with never giving us that.

Also, it makes sense for Barry and Iris to talk about stuff in their actual house anyway- they're a married couple, they should be seen being domestic far more often than this. 

[adora721]

Did we just see the start of “Harlize” or “Marry”?

It wasn’t lost on me that Harry was swooning a bit over Marlize when he and Iris were looking at her history. “Cute, little button nose always buried in a book; that’s so nice!” And then Marlize stroked Harry’s cheek later in the episode, and I think he liked it.

It seems the plot for Harry to get in touch with his emotions is also a potential setup for him to have a new romance. It also ties into his sweet scene with Jesse earlier where he shared his thoughts of his wife with his daughter.

I actually like the thought of those two together. They have both done dark things and lost (Marlize will lose Clifford) the spouses they adored. And Marlize can stand up to Harry's curmudgeon ways. I think Kim is fantastic! She's the best addition to the team since Tracy Brand.

Edited May 16, 2018 by adora721

[Trini]

I know that Joe/Cecile is a low priority relationship for the show, and it's not as taboo anymore to have a child out of wedlock, but I still find it disappointing that they haven't had Joe "I wore this ring for 20 years even though my marriage was over" West even mention marrying Cecile - the mother of his child. He seems the type to want to make things official to me.

[Trini]

I appreciate these nuggets in the last couple of episodes:

-------

After Barry's time in the Speedforce, and his prison term, I'm confident that Barry & Iris end the season together, even if there's a cliffhanger. Unlike last year, i don't see any hints of separation.

[BeautifulFlower]

On 5/18/2018 at 1:22 AM, Trini said:

I appreciate these nuggets in the last couple of episodes:

-------

After Barry's time in the Speedforce, and his prison term, I'm confident that Barry & Iris end the season together, even if there's a cliffhanger. Unlike last year, i don't see any hints of separation.

Oh Grant already leaked in an interview that Barry and Iris are together at the end of this season. No separation at all

[BeautifulFlower]

Team Flash counts as a relationship, I think?

 

I' sure some of you have heard about the "Original Team Flash" thing. I agree with whomever said on here that the team has never consisted of just Barry, Cisco, and Caitlin. 

I went searching for why they believed this, besides the obvious reasons why the OTF came up (getting rid of Iris). It seems some people think Team Flash is a Star Labs crew only team. They think if you worked in Star labs or is in Star Labs all the time, you're apart of the Team. This is apparently why some don't consider Joe apart of the team back in season 1. Last time I check, team flash is a crime fighting team, not a star labs only team.

 

They're also being very transparent as for why they want OTF back. If Joe wasn't apart of the team back in season 1 due to not being in Star Labs all the time, this logic should still apply this season. Joe is barely in Star Labs in Season 4, yet people are saying he's apart of Team Flash.

[Kate45]

7 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Team Flash counts as a relationship, I think?

 

I' sure some of you have heard about the "Original Team Flash" thing. I agree with whomever said on here that the team has never consisted of just Barry, Cisco, and Caitlin. 

I went searching for why they believed this, besides the obvious reasons why the OTF came up (getting rid of Iris). It seems some people think Team Flash is a Star Labs crew only team. They think if you worked in Star labs or is in Star Labs all the time, you're apart of the Team. This is apparently why some don't consider Joe apart of the team back in season 1. Last time I check, team flash is a crime fighting team, not a star labs only team.

 

They're also being very transparent as for why they want OTF back. If Joe wasn't apart of the team back in season 1 due to not being in Star Labs all the time, this logic should still apply this season. Joe is barely in Star Labs in Season 4, yet people are saying he's apart of Team Flash.

The thing that has always confused me about OTF is how they erase the crucial role EoWells played into the team, and tend to add Harry when he didn't join the team until season 2. 

Many people were important to making Barry a successful superhero, so it's very weird that all of those people are chopped liver to the OTF crowd. 

 

In the end, it's really just about SnowBarry. That is who makes up the OTF crowd, which is why Iris is constantly erased. 

[Starry]

There are only two constants about OTF, Iris is always excluded, Cisco and Caitlin are always included. The rest depends on who you talk to.

If these people consider OTF a STAR Labs characters only team, then they should call it Team STAR Labs*. When it comes to the Flash, you can't separate the man from the powers. Since the narrative constantly reiterates Joe and Iris' importance in making Barry who he is today (parallels with Zoom's situation, Savitar, alternate future Barry retiring after Iris' death...) there's no way you can take away their right to be Team Flash and have it make logical sense. The fact that Iris has been "unlocking" the Flash's powers since s1 makes her Team Flash before Cisco and Caitlin.

Like @Kate45 pointed out, you can't have OTF without Eobard Thawne. He hired Cisco and Caitlin. He was the one that put things in motion. That means that Cisco and Caitlin (and Harry?!) don't even make sense as Original Team STAR Labs. There's nothing original about any version of these people's Team Flash.

* And that wouldn't work either because Barry AND his wife Iris own the building, lmao.

Bringing this back to the actual show canon, I don't care about the Snowbarrisco friendship and never have. They've had some cute and funny interactions as the show geek club but their friendship is fairly shallow and circumstantial. Barry didn't even seek them out when he was living his Flashpoint fantasy. I get the impression that they were a bit closer in s1 only because Barry was lying to Iris/Iris was in a committed relationship and he couldn't be with her the way he wanted to. Despite all that, Barry had more profound moments with both Joe and EoWells. In the Snowbarrisco trio, it's the Cisco/Caitlin friendship that is the most consistent. Or at least it was before s4.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Starry

[wingster55]

On an unrelated note: rewatching some season 1 episodes reminds me about the Cisco and Joe relationship. They worked really well together. I miss it. Seems to have been sacrificed for Cisco and whatever character Tom Cavanagh is playing. 

[BeautifulFlower]

2 hours ago, wingster55 said:

On an unrelated note: rewatching some season 1 episodes reminds me about the Cisco and Joe relationship. They worked really well together. I miss it. Seems to have been sacrificed for Cisco and whatever character Tom Cavanagh is playing. 

And I miss Iris/Joe scenes. Those scenes have been lacking this season. I've seen some fans advocate for more Iris/Joe scenes to the writers, only to end up with Joe/Caitlin scenes.

It's like Iris isn't even his daughter at this point. The fact that most people consider Joe/Barry bond to be stronger than Iris/Joe is just sad. I want more Iris/Joe scenes.

 

Actually, I also miss West-Allen family scenes like in season 1. I want to see them have dinner again. I almost got a scene in 4x4 when Joe and Barry were coming to tell Iris the news of the baby. However, it was ruined as they shoehorned Caitlin into the scene. I want Cecile giving birth scene to be between just them, but I know it won't happen

[Trini]

"...Fill your mind with something else; something you love." --"It's you and me, Iris."

I guess since the phrase was already in the title, they might not have wanted to repeat it again (at that specific moment), but the "We are the Flash" idea is still there. I'm glad it stayed through the whole season; and that finale scene in particular reiterated that Iris powers Barry/The Flash. Glad there wasn't yet another separation in the finale. Wish they could have fit in a kiss, though.

It'll be interesting to see Barry & Iris deal with the next stage of their relationship as parents (but not really) next season.

[Trini]

In non-WestAllen relationships:

The parallels between the West-Allens and the DeVoes broke down - only one couple survived. Flash and Thinker remained enemies, but Iris and Marlize managed to becaome friends (or at least friendly). I wouldn't mind Marlize showing up some more, and more scenes with her and Iris, but I know the chance of that are so low. ::SIGH::

Joe and Cecile are still together; now with a baby that we'll see probably 5 times. With the theme being "family" next season, I hope they don't forget that Wally and Joanie exist, are are part of the West family, too. If Diggle, Felicity, and Lyla can crossover, they better find a way for Keiynan to guest star, too.

I was disappointed that Cisco/Cynthia had to be cut short; and that Cisco's relationship with Harry was actually his main focus overall. I'm just so over any version of Wells now. They should have had more of the Cisco/Caitlin friendship, since she was dealing with Killer Frost all season.

No love interest for Caitlin this year - which I think is a good thing. Her next one would have to be cool with KF, too. (And hopefully NOT a meta or attached to STAR Labs.) I don't know if the writers would bother with that, since they've been so sloppy with Caitlin/KF's story. They're going back to Caitlin's family next season, so more relationship intrigue there.

Speaking of, I hope they remember Cisco has a family too.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Trini

[Trini]

Also this was a cute scene:

Barry was so ready to start making a baby 'right now'!

[BeautifulFlower]

You know I get the show is trying to portray the Star Labs characters as family, but how much does it cost to have a few extras? I don't believe for a fact that neither Joe or Iris have relatives in the city. Or Cecile? It's beyond annoying that for things like the welcome home party for Jenna in the finale, consisted of not only her actual relatives, but also Cisco, Ralph, and Caitlin. Also, Cecile's baby shower. She didn't have any friends from work or college to come to the shower? It's bad enough Joanie didn't come to either of these things. 

So how much does extras cost?

[adora721]

2 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

You know I get the show is trying to portray the Star Labs characters as family, but how much does it cost to have a few extras? I don't believe for a fact that neither Joe or Iris have relatives in the city. Or Cecile? It's beyond annoying that for things like the welcome home party for Jenna in the finale, consisted of not only her actual relatives, but also Cisco, Ralph, and Caitlin. Also, Cecile's baby shower. She didn't have any friends from work or college to come to the shower? It's bad enough Joanie didn't come to either of these things. 

So how much does extras cost?

Ditto for Iris' bachelorette party and bridal party. Does Iris not have close female friends to ask to be her MoH instead of a "work friend" who also tried to help murder her? 

[BeautifulFlower]

You know it's kinda sad that Barry and Iris are the only ones who didn't become friends through him being The Flash. This show needs more friendships outside of Star Labs.

[Trini]

Responding to some stuff from the Caitlin thread:

On 6/24/2018 at 6:36 AM, Starry said:

Look, I completely agree that the show wanted the audience to see the Snowbarry potential. I just disagree that, in retrospect, it was anything deeper than a tease (and biased/unsure showrunners trying to immediately present an alternative to their interracial OTP). I don't believe that there's a plan, a grand design and that we're meant to take as canon that Caitlin has carried a torch all this time. They teased the ship in s1 through dialogue and directing choices but how am I supposed to take it seriously if they didn't build on it? After 1x19, there's nothing in canon that supports Caitlin's attraction to Barry. And said attraction didn't show up between 1x12 and 1x19 either. Long periods of time without a hint, then a small hint in ONE episode does not a story make.

Exactly. It doesn't matter to me if people like, or want to see this pairing, but it's clear to me that Barry/Caitlin as a romantic couple were never a thing happening on the show.

 

On 6/24/2018 at 12:00 PM, adora721 said:

There's a reason the showrunners set up this distance between these women. ...

The way I see it, the show has always had issues with a) having enough female characters, b) writing for the female characters, and c) writing relationships between female characters in particular, so I don't know if that's evidence of Snowbarry teasing. If they actually wanted Iris and Caitlin to be rivals for Barry's affection, they'd have to either have Barry's relationship/feelings for Caitlin to be somewhat equal to his relationship/feelings for Iris, OR have a more solid/close relationship between Caitlin and Iris -- and neither of these things happened.

 

On 6/24/2018 at 12:00 PM, adora721 said:

I'm saying they might have a point that Caitlin Snow did have romantic feelings for Barry Allen even though it lead nowhere.

I just don't see it, past the obvious teasing in the first season. Plus, does it even count as a ship-tease if it's completely one-sided? I feel that a Barry/Caitlin romance would be somewhat valid if there was any reciprocation from Barry's end, but there hasn't been.

Edited July 1, 2018 by Trini

[Katsullivan]

23 hours ago, Trini said:

If they actually wanted Iris and Caitlin to be rivals for Barry's affection

Caitlin could never have been written as Iris's rival. At least not by these particular set of showrunners. That would mean pitting them as equals with Iris potentially coming up as winner if they had a mandate to deliver Westallen, regardless of their own personal inclination. 

If you think SB hate Iris now, imagine how much they'd loathe her if the Flash writers pulled a Smallville and had a white woman be repeatedly rejected and demeaned to prop up a WOC. 

[Starry]

I'm not mad they didn't set up Caitlin as Iris' rival but I will always be bitter that role was given to Linda and not to Patty. Linda should have been introduced as Iris' friend, CCPN colleague and sounding board. Patty is the one who's actually threatened by Iris in the comics. There was also no natural reason for Patty to be Iris' friend. A rivalry between them would have made more sense.

I enjoyed the few friendship moments we got in s2 but I wish I didn't have to suddenly pretend the narrative used to pit Iris and Linda against each other.

[Katsullivan]

1 hour ago, Starry said:

I'm not mad they didn't set up Caitlin as Iris' rival but I will always be bitter that role was given to Linda and not to Patty. Linda should have been introduced as Iris' friend, CCPN colleague and sounding board. Patty is the one who's actually threatened by Iris in the comics. There was also no natural reason for Patty to be Iris' friend. A rivalry between them would have made more sense.

I enjoyed the few friendship moments we got in s2 but I wish I didn't have to suddenly pretend the narrative used to pit Iris and Linda against each other.

As I said on the Caitlin Snow thread: There's a reason why the showrunner/writers were more comfortable setting a WOC as Iris's rival than a white woman. 

Linda/Iris would have been a really nice dynamic. In fact, Linda, Mason and Scott were the only characters on the Flash that "orbited" Iris and it's not a coincidence that they were all sent off/killed off while Caitlin has characters like Amunet recurring. 

[Kate45]

2 hours ago, Starry said:

I'm not mad they didn't set up Caitlin as Iris' rival but I will always be bitter that role was given to Linda and not to Patty. Linda should have been introduced as Iris' friend, CCPN colleague and sounding board. Patty is the one who's actually threatened by Iris in the comics. There was also no natural reason for Patty to be Iris' friend. A rivalry between them would have made more sense.

I enjoyed the few friendship moments we got in s2 but I wish I didn't have to suddenly pretend the narrative used to pit Iris and Linda against each other.

I agree. But, I also liked that it changed in season 2 so that Iris and Linda were able to be friends. The fandom ragged on Iris so much for “interfering” in the Linda/Barry relationship that I’m personally glad that she didn’t “interfere” with Patty/Barry. They could have done it in a tasteful and intriguing way without making Iris look bad, but these writers aren’t that subtle. 

It would be pointless for them to put Caitlin and Iris as rivals, because Caitlin would lose every time. In someways that happened with the crises that Caitlin and Iris went through in season 3, and Caitlin lost in that “rivalry”. Caitlin stans swear she was alone because Barry didn’t care about her KF situation. So, in terms of Barry caring about one or the other, Caitlin loses every time. Which is how many in the fandom determine winners or losers on this show. 

[Starry]

21 hours ago, Kate45 said:

I agree. But, I also liked that it changed in season 2 so that Iris and Linda were able to be friends. The fandom ragged on Iris so much for “interfering” in the Linda/Barry relationship that I’m personally glad that she didn’t “interfere” with Patty/Barry. They could have done it in a tasteful and intriguing way without making Iris look bad, but these writers aren’t that subtle.

I don't care about what Iris haters think. They are welcome to get comfortable on their high horse and rage. The fandom is full of hypocrites. When Iris kissed Barry in a life-and-death situation she was labeled a cheater. When Caitlin kissed the shapeshifter back, four episodes before getting married to Ronnie, it was a hint at her feelings for Barry. There's no pleasing them because they have double standards. And no Iris/Barry/Patty love triangle suddenly meant that Iris was giving in to destiny in the back half of s2. Iris didn't have to interfere but they should have never forgotten about the complicated relationship Westallen had in season 1B to conveniently put them back in the "just friends" box.

 

21 hours ago, Kate45 said:

It would be pointless for them to put Caitlin and Iris as rivals, because Caitlin would lose every time. In someways that happened with the crises that Caitlin and Iris went through in season 3, and Caitlin lost in that “rivalry”. Caitlin stans swear she was alone because Barry didn’t care about her KF situation. So, in terms of Barry caring about one or the other, Caitlin loses every time. Which is how many in the fandom determine winners or losers on this show. 

I agree only in part because Caitlin getting cold powers does not compare to Iris losing her life. I was actually irritated when in 3x22 Barry sent Cisco to Frost to stop her from making a big mistake. That wasn't the time and Cisco could have been useful in the final fight against Savitar.

[BeautifulFlower]

23 hours ago, Kate45 said:

 Caitlin stans swear she was alone because Barry didn’t care about her KF situation.

GOD, I HATED THAT. They were so annoying with that bull. Unfortunately, it revealed their true colors. Just like the "Bring Back OTF", they don't care about Cisco. Every time they kept claiming Caitlin was alone in s3, I'm glad people refuted by reminding them that Cisco and Julie were there for her.

Ugh, some of them claim Caitlin was alone this season. It's not like Caitlin decided to do things by herself and decided to work for a human trafficker.

[Katsullivan]

I don't know if anyone has seen the gag reel, but it has a lot of "Grandice" moments i.e. affectionate interactions between Grant and Candice. It's clear that they have no problems showing physical affection towards each other so the writing/direction are deliberately holding them back. Of course, this was already obvious to anyone who knew how certain guest writer scripts were edited to downplay Westallen affection but it was nice to see a confirmation.

[phoenics]

On 7/2/2018 at 2:08 AM, Katsullivan said:

I don't know if anyone has seen the gag reel, but it has a lot of "Grandice" moments i.e. affectionate interactions between Grant and Candice. It's clear that they have no problems showing physical affection towards each other so the writing/direction are deliberately holding them back. Of course, this was already obvious to anyone who knew how certain guest writer scripts were edited to downplay Westallen affection but it was nice to see a confirmation.

Do you have a link?  I'd love to see it.

[BeautifulFlower]

On 7/2/2018 at 1:08 AM, Katsullivan said:

I don't know if anyone has seen the gag reel, but it has a lot of "Grandice" moments i.e. affectionate interactions between Grant and Candice. It's clear that they have no problems showing physical affection towards each other so the writing/direction are deliberately holding them back. Of course, this was already obvious to anyone who knew how certain guest writer scripts were edited to downplay Westallen affection but it was nice to see a confirmation.

What? Spill the tea

[Katsullivan]

9 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

What? Spill the tea

Give me a while to dig up the receipts but there are at least 2 episodes where this happened: S2E16 Trajectory and S3E19 Once and Future Flash were both penned by guest writers (not part of the "on-the-job" writers' room), and they spoke in interviews later how their Westallen content was edited out. I distinctly remember Carina MacKenzie, who wrote the season 3 episode, tweeting that she was just as surprised as the audience that there was no passionate Westallen reunion when Barry returned from a Future where she was fricking dead ---- instead Barry brushing her off to hug Joe. 

Then the season 2 writer, whose name I forget, saying that all the Westallen flirting she wrote for the bar scene, was removed by the editors. 

[Kate45]

9 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Then the season 2 writer, whose name I forget, saying that all the Westallen flirting she wrote for the bar scene, was removed by the editors. 

The writer’s name is Lilah Vandenburgh. She did a podcast about being a writer, I think, and she talked about her experience writing The Flash. I don’t have a link, so hopefully @Katsullivan does. 

I remember her saying that she’s a huge WestAllen shipper, and given the material her co-writer for the episode has written (Lauren Certo), I would say that is true for both of them. She said something about writing several flirtataious scenes between Barry and Iris (like the Netflix and Chill scene) but that a producer (she may have even said AJK) told her they weren’t going there YET. 

I have to say it makes very little sense to me that they would do that considering that  2 episodes later, Iris starts talking about her feelings for Barry. I’m sure she was telling the truth, but having them flirt more would have helped build up to WestAllen. Super strange.

Carina mentioned the change to her episode on Twitter. She also said she’d never write for The Flash ever again because of her experience with AJK. Hopefully KatSullivan can bring those as well. 

That’s all I remember about those two episodes. 

[BeautifulFlower]

Thank you  @Kate45

[ruby24]

It was especially irritating because what they left in was so minimal. That episode at the bar was supposed to establish them awkwardly flirting and they let it go for like one line and quickly interrupt it, and never go back to it later in the episode. And they tell the writer she was doing too much when she tried to put more in that scene? What exactly did they want?

This is the kind of stuff that made people think it was strange and abrupt when Iris tells Barry maybe they're meant to be together. It wasn't built up enough! I know of no other show that wouldn't have wanted it to milk it for all it's worth, if you're planning to put two people together.

For example, bookend scenes of the flirting in the bar episode would have signaled the show's intentions much more clearly. A couple more scenes where it's made clear that Barry DOES still carry a torch for Iris (until she confesses to him in 2x21, the only hint of this comes from his reaction to Earth-2 Iris, but he never indicates that he now carries fresh hope for them getting together on Earth-1 until her confession).

And I'm sorry, but we needed several more scenes of Iris thinking about Barry in a new light, because the only episode where her feelings for him are clearly shown was episode 1x15, imo. After that, nothing. The entirety of the first half of Season 2 was a total blank (she had NO reaction to him and Patty whatsoever). If realizing they were married on Earth 2 changed her feelings, we barely saw that either (I guess the bar scene we were supposed to assume she did now, but it was SO short and again, not referred back to).

It's complete amateur hour when a writers room can't figure out to build to a simple coming together of two people within a few episodes. And I was never satisfied with Iris's confession because they had her literally say that maybe they were meant to be together because of destiny (the newspaper and Earth-2) and they couldn't even have her say that she realized she was in love with him? Or maybe they couldn't have her say that because they knew they hadn't shown it properly? It felt obligatory. They knew it had to happen and they could not figure out any way to build to it naturally. 

[Starry]

4 hours ago, ruby24 said:

A couple more scenes where it's made clear that Barry DOES still carry a torch for Iris (until she confesses to him in 2x21, the only hint of this comes from his reaction to Earth-2 Iris, but he never indicates that he now carries fresh hope for them getting together on Earth-1 until her confession).

I completely agree with your post, except I think this was intentional. The trip to Earth-2 didn't give Barry any hope he and Iris could get together on Earth-1. Earth-2 Harry tells him that wasn't their life and he takes that to heart. That's why he doesn't pick up on Iris flirting with him and is in disbelief when she pours her heart to him in 2x20. I actually loved Iris confession scene. The acting and chemistry sold the moment despite the lackluster dialogue.

About the gag reel, the writers are indeed wasting the actors' natural chemistry. This particular writing team is especially bad at writing fluff. They either go for emotional, angsty moments (Grant and Candice really shine in those IMO) or they put the characters in stressful, awkward situations and play it for laughs. I'll take the deleted interrupted honeymoon scene as an example. Instead of having Ralph irritate the hell out of Barry and Iris, they could have written a brief scene of Barry and Iris flirting and having fun on their honeymoon and only then they get interrupten by an emergency. Instead we got a "funny" moment (you know you're supposed to see that scene as funny because of the music cues) while the characters themselves don't have fun, they're just mad. I miss the lighthearted banter. This is an area where the s1 writers did so so much better.

Apart from scripts being edited to downplay affection, they also tend to film and then cut Westallen scenes. In s4 they've cut the interrupted honeymoon, a scene of Iris making breakfast for Barry and burning toasts (I really wanted to see that one!), a kiss in 4x18 and another scene in 4x20. It's especially irritating when you know those moments exist but don't get to see them.

[Katsullivan]

On 06/07/2018 at 11:35 PM, BeautifulFlower said:

Thank you  @Kate45

What am I, chopped liver?

Anyway, here's Carina's tweet:

On 26/04/2017 at 6:00 PM, Katsullivan said:

This is exactly what I'm talking about. 

This is a screencap of a tweet conversation with Carina MacKenzie, the writer of last night's episode and here she clearly implies that it was not her choice to have Barry return to the Present, and ignore his fiancee for her father. It's more than Barry giving Iris a hug, or even a passionate kiss. It's the story narratively setting Barry up to "make as many memories with Iris as he can before he loses her forever", and then his big reunion when he returns to the Present is with Joe. 

The showrunners have an anti-Westallen/anti-Iris vendetta.  It doesn't matter what they do lipservice to.

[Katsullivan]

Re: the podcast. I've listened to it but I'm not sure how to find the link. But here's the first time I think it came up on this board:

On 22/09/2017 at 8:41 PM, RedVitC said:

I'm not sure if this is the start of it, but back in season 2 a Freelance Flash episode writer (she did the episode with Trajectory) did a podcast in which she speculated (while making completely clear that she was speculating and had no idea) that perhaps they would make Bart Barry and Iris' son instead of grandson (I think they were talking about Wally being Iris' brother instead of her nephew, but I'm not sure). That podcast also had some other stuff where she talked about how she was a big fan of Barry/Iris and she kept trying to put in stuff but was told to tone it down because they wanted to stretch it out more (It's been a long time since I listened to it, so  this is mostly my recollection of what she said, not sure what she said exactly anymore)

I mean "stretch it out more" sounds innocent enough until you realise, as @Kate45 pointed out, that 2 episodes later Iris was confessing her love to Barry and it seems to come out of nowhere. So basically, they just edited out Westallen content in a way that ultimately harmed their presentation for no clear reason. 

[Trini]

On 7/7/2018 at 6:31 AM, Starry said:

Apart from scripts being edited to downplay affection, they also tend to film and then cut Westallen scenes. In s4 they've cut the interrupted honeymoon, a scene of Iris making breakfast for Barry and burning toasts (I really wanted to see that one!), a kiss in 4x18 and another scene in 4x20. It's especially irritating when you know those moments exist but don't get to see them.

From the gag reel: they also cut a Cynco kiss:

:(

[Starry]

I was positive they kissed in that scene but you're right, it was cut!