Relationships: Speed Dating

[TwistedandBored]

45 minutes ago, johntfs said:

That seems to be a big different between him and Stephen Amell.  Amell has pretty clear preferences about characters and stories that he likes.  I think if it had been fully up to him, Oliver and Felicity would be married with a couple of kids by now.  I would love to read a behind the scenes story about Arrow, especially in the first year.  It's hard for me to overstate the impression I got from that first scene of Oliver and Felicity.  Emily Bett Rickards played the scene like the bit part that it was written to be.  I imagine she answered a casting call for local actors, got handed a script and glasses and was told to play a "cute, quirky, nerdy IT girl."  The way Oliver had been previously shown, I'd have expected him be surface polite but mildly annoyed and impatient with her.  It felt like there would have been several scenes like this, with Oliver going to the IT department and meeting some new weird annoying person down there.  Instead, Amell played Oliver as being utterly charmed by Felicity, like something very close to love at first sight.  It's hard for me to believe Amell was specifically directed to play that scene that way.  I would love to know the story behind it, because I just "know" he really liked Emily and fought for her to come back and be woven into the greater Arrow story-lines, eventually becoming part of Team Arrow.

Actually EBR said that was her own glasses she wore during that scene and the subsequent scenes that followed. I believe she said she considers them Felicity glasses now and can't wear them anymore. 

As for the break in Oliver's character during that first Olicity scene, it was because Stephen Amell broke character. He was really charmed by EBR and how she played that character. 

Also, EBR came back because of the CW/WB execs saw the dailies from that scene and said more of that  blond girl with the glasses and the writers really loved writing for her as well. She was their comic relief character but EBR made that character into more than was written for her.  Her chem with SA and DR helped immensely as well.

 

Just now, doram said:

Going by the date on Barry's driver's license and the date on Iris's tombstone, Barry is a few months older than Iris. 

Thank you. I knew the show already told us Barry was older. I just didn't know by how much.  

[Trini]

23 hours ago, doram said:

The new child actors were definitely age mis-matched. The girl was age-appropriate as a replacement of the previous actress who played Young Iris, but that little boy looked 7, 8 at the most, and definitely not someone her age. Considering all he did was look sad and cry, there was no reason why they couldn't have cast their casting nets (!) wider. I chalked it up to one of the shitty micro-aggressions that tend to happen where Westallen is concerned. 

Yep. I think in this specific case, it may have just come down to laziness. They just used the same child actor they used for that one scene in "Duet" with Nora Allen. I mean, there weren't even any lines in "Cause and Effect"; it wouldn't have been that much trouble to get an actor in the right age range.  ::SIGH::

[Trini]

On 5/20/2017 at 0:51 AM, tofutan said:

Lois and Clark was always pitched as a two lead show. None of the CW shows are like that. Arrow, Flash and Supergirl (and arguably Smallville) are shows with a lead character, a supporting cast and love interests. Legends is a team show. 

To me it makes no sense to wonder why Flash is not like Lois and Clark when it has never been pitched as Barry & Iris, The Adventures of Flash. Unless you mean Lois and Clark on Smallville (which I think borrowed heavily from the Lois & Clark tv show dynamic AND only got there after many seasons of Lana AND it to me always had a more multi-cast soapy structure than the current breed of CW shows). 

I'd love for a Lois & Clark -type dynamic here; but it's true. It's Barry + his supporting characters. But that doesn't mean they can't do better by Iris, though. If she's so important to Barry, she needs to be important to the show too.

----
 

On 5/20/2017 at 9:45 AM, doram said:

And even without making the sex explicit, we should have seen more PDA. Having Harrison accidentally walk in on them in Star Labs is something that should have been a recurring joke all season long.  But S3 Westallen are not even tactile* unless they're in specific sexual situations. Even their "bed" scenes might as well be in an office for all the physical contact they make. Why not have Iris's head resting on Barry's chest in that mid-night scene or them spooning, fully-clothed and under the covers? I know someone will argue that they're trying to depict anxiety by having both of them lying on their backs, staring up at the ceiling, but they could easily be doing so by holding on to each other. Or if not in full body contact, they could be lying with their heads touching, making jokes about their childhood and high-school days.

I needed that to be a post-coital scene, honestly. No way was Iris West not getting one in on her (possibly) last day on earth when she has a vibrating fiancé. Could have been the exact reason she was hungry for caviar.  ?

Edited May 23, 2017 by Trini

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, Trini said:

reason she was hungry for caviar.  ?

Was it just me or did any one else find Iris wanting caviar odd?  Apart from fish eggs, gross, have we ever before seen Iris with such fancy tastes?  It seemed an odd enough craving that I seriously wondered for a second if they were hinting she was pregnant, but that seems unlikely with the whole dying plot hanging over her head. 

Edited May 22, 2017 by BkWurm1

[ruby24]

I wonder when they'll have her be pregnant on the show. I'm sure they'll want to bring in Bart Allen eventually, and there seems to be a popular theory that they will make Bart their son in this universe instead of grandson. Sounds right, but of course in the comics they also have the Tornado Twins, Don and Dawn Allen.

They could always give them three kids instead of two, with Bart the youngest. Maybe have Bart come in from the future at some point, but later on in the show Iris gets pregnant with the twins, and if babies do show up, that could be them. Babies are always tricky to bring on, but I could see a pregnancy in Season 7, or maybe even 6. I'm sure they'll have them get married by the end of next season, so yeah, a pregnancy in Season 6 could happen.

Dramatic pregnancy storylines always work (I can only imagine the episode where Iris gives birth), but it's what to do with the baby (or babies) after that that becomes an issue. If the show goes on to last ten seasons, it could be a problem. If it only goes for 7, then a birth in Season 6 or 7 is perfect.

[Grace19]

On 5/19/2017 at 2:23 AM, Mellowyellow said:

I don't understand SnowBarry and never saw it on the show! In fact when they introduced the new BC and Olicity were broken up I used to run around the Arrow forum saying "I hope the new BC only has a Caitlin/Barry relationship with Oliver" because to me it was a good friends/colleagues relationship, nothing more. 

Granted I am completely neutral when it comes to shipping on Flash so maybe I don't read as much into things.

I always thought that Iris was set up as his great childhood romance and I grew up on this stuff with the Chinese/Korean series that I watch so it didn't ever occur to me that they were anything but endgame even if I didn't ship them. Plus she ends up with him in the comics. 

This. IMO, Snowbarry has never been a thing, I don't know why some westallen shippers are worried about that ship. From the promo and the leaked pilot, it was obvious to me that the writers were going with westallen. Iris being Barry's childhood best friend made it harder to write her out of the show without affecting the west family and Barry.

It was also clear that they put a lot of effort in season one to make people have less to complain about iris. Until this season, they tried not to damsel iris much and few times she was in trouble she helped save herself. It backfired a bit as they went overboard and made her too humble in season two. She wasn't mad at her father for lying about her mother where she had every right to be and we didn't see her grieve for Eddie, I guess they didn't want to repeated the mistakes they made with Laurel. Its a shame that they cared too much about what some fans that were never going to like Candice/iris think so much so that they took away some of iris interesting traits.

From season one, Caitlin has never been Barry's confidant, he never had much one on one scene with her, they are always in a group. Barry/Cisco and Cisco/Caitlin were mostly what we got. The two scenes closest to a snowbarry tease were insulting to Caitlin's character and had nothing to do with Barry.

The last episode scene between Barry/Caitlin where she said Barry and Caitlin together again was not ship bait in my opinion. It was a scene to remind us that savitar has all Barry's memories and might not find it easy to kill Iris, I don't know why some people saw it as a snowbarry scene. I wasn't even worried about Barry/patty because it was so obvious that she was a temporary love interest.

I don't like some of the choices the producers and writers made while writing iris and westallen, but one thing I can give them is that they've been clear about the ship they want on the show. 

[Grace19]

On 5/20/2017 at 5:17 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Yeah, I've made similar suggestion with regards to her reporting.  I think part of the problem goes back to how the show makes everything start and end with Barry.  I get it, it's his show, but it all can lead back to Barry still and they are fine with starting stuff with Joe or random news alerts.  Why not Iris's reporting?  

Thank you so much for reminding me of two things I hated about last episode. Yes, we get that the show is about Barry, but the writers literary make everything about Barry, even when its not supposed to be. 

When Wally failed to stop savitar, instead if being mad and unhappy about failing to save his sister who he loves, the show had him apologise to Barry for failing him. As if saving iris is a favour he was doing for Barry and not because he loves his sister. It came across as some guy trying to help his friend save his girl. That scene made me mad and took me out of the show, I was like, "really writers?".

They did it with Joe too. When Barry told Joe that he can't know where iris is, that they should take her far away from him. Joe said, " don't worry Barry, we will protect her". Don't worry Barry? She is your daughter! How about you? Or iris? Why dose everything has to be about Barry? I swear this writers can be trash sometimes.

At least they finally gave us Joe/iris scene that was about them, I wish iris/Wally got one too. I mostly love that iris acknowledged that her death will be hardest on her dad, which is true. Nothing is as bad as a parent outliving his/her child.

[Grace19]

On 5/20/2017 at 9:18 AM, tofutan said:

I think the more interesting question, when we talk about race and how it affects fandom popularity, is why Barry/Cisco is not more popular, compared to Barry/Snart for example. 

Oh, you know why. The same reason Caitlin/Cisco is not popular, Cisco is not white. I bet that if Cisco is white, Barry/Cisco and Caitlin/Cisco would be very popular. Seriously Barry/Cisco is the only non canon ship that makes scene to me, they are so close and trust each other.

[Grace19]

On 5/20/2017 at 1:42 PM, BkWurm1 said:

I think for The Flash, I assume Iris really isn't dead so there should be some kind of epic reunion when Barry and Iris are back in each other's proximity.  Though it would be horrifically hilarious if instead of a big smooch, we get Joe and Barry hugging each other in celebration that Iris isn't dead.  While Iris watches from the sidelines.  

I wish I found that more unlikely than I do.    

Its a shame that this won't surprise me.

[LolaRuns]

6 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Was it just me or did any one else find Iris wanting caviar odd?  Apart from fish eggs, gross, have we ever before seen Iris with such fancy tastes?  It seemed an odd enough craving that I seriously wondered for a second if they were hinting she was pregnant, but that seems unlikely with the whole dying plot hanging over her head. 

I immediately assumed that Iris didn't actually want caviar, she just made that up to come up with something that would take Barry a while to fetch so she could record her goodbye message to her. 

[Grace19]

On 5/21/2017 at 0:33 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Personality probably is a factor as well.  GG is great and friendly but I can easily imaging him being more passive and more likely to just defer to the directors or the script.   

Lol, I wonder why most people think Grant cannot be sexy, its not just here. People always blame him for westallen few PDAs. I don't think that's fair, it might not even be his fault. Anyways if there is any truth to that, then after this show is over it may affect his ability to get lead roles, a lead should be able to play whatever role is required of him.

[Katsullivan]

1 hour ago, Grace19 said:

When Wally failed to stop savitar, instead if being mad and unhappy about failing to save his sister who he loves, the show had him apologise to Barry for failing him. As if saving iris is a favour he was doing for Barry and not because he loves his sister. It came across as some guy trying to help his friend save his girl. That scene made me mad and took me out of the show, I was like, "really writers?".

They did it with Joe too. When Barry told Joe that he can't know where iris is, that they should take her far away from him. Joe said, " don't worry Barry, we will protect her". Don't worry Barry? She is your daughter! How about you? Or iris? Why dose everything has to be about Barry? I swear this writers can be trash sometimes.

This was beyond aggravating. I will clarify that it's beyond a Barry thing, it's also a race thing. It's common place in mainstream media for black people to be dissociated from their families: providing home sets for them, parents, siblings, strong family relationships... Think for example about Bonnie Bennett from TVD. It's the same thing here. The Wests are important because they're Barry's defacto family. But see how hard it is for the show to make them important to each other, or at least more important to each other than Barry. When Joe scolded Barry in the Pilot, Iris rushed to defend Barry. But she couldn't do the same when Barry attacked Wally. Many comments have been made about how much Joe prioritizes Barry over both his children. Wally's entry into the West family was made all about Barry, and Joe to a lesser extent. None of Iris's family has any negative reaction towards her life being endangered because of Barry twice, for Flashpoint or for him being Savitar. 

[johntfs]

3 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

None of Iris's family has any negative reaction towards her life being endangered because of Barry twice, for Flashpoint or for him being Savitar. 

Yeah, this.  There's not even a simple "Jesus, Barry, can't you get yourself under control?"

[BkWurm1]

On 5/22/2017 at 7:07 AM, Grace19 said:

Oh, you know why. The same reason Caitlin/Cisco is not popular, Cisco is not white. I bet that if Cisco is white, Barry/Cisco and Caitlin/Cisco would be very popular. Seriously Barry/Cisco is the only non canon ship that makes scene to me, they are so close and trust each other.

I never considered shipping Caitlin and Cisco because Cisco has been just too juvenile. Nothing to do with race.  He still half the time looks like he's barely out of high school.  It's why I had such a problem with him and Hawkgirl.  She was way out of his league.  It's why I still have a problem with him and Gypsy.  I actually was fine with him and Lisa Snart because why she was initially interested in him made sense (she wanted his talents) and why she might continued be interested also made senses (part tease but also she liked that he was different and a nice guy and she herself is also really juvenile.)

But Caitlin is a serious person and Cisco 90 percent of the time is this yipping puppy that she tolerates.  How can I take them seriously as an option.  They've had some very nice friendship moments but he still just feels sooo much younger than her.  Also didn't help that when Caitlin started to get her powers, he automatically assumed she was going to go full on evil.  Even before she had powers he was afraid she was going to go evil just because she had an evil counterpart on E2.  But that he also had an evil counterpart apparently meant nothing.  Not sure I'll ever get past that attitude he has toward her.  (Same goes for Barry)     

On 5/22/2017 at 8:57 AM, Katsullivan said:

This was beyond aggravating. I will clarify that it's beyond a Barry thing, it's also a race thing. It's common place in mainstream media for black people to be dissociated from their families: providing home sets for them, parents, siblings, strong family relationships... Think for example about Bonnie Bennett from TVD. It's the same thing here. The Wests are important because they're Barry's defacto family. But see how hard it is for the show to make them important to each other, or at least more important to each other than Barry. When Joe scolded Barry in the Pilot, Iris rushed to defend Barry. But she couldn't do the same when Barry attacked Wally. Many comments have been made about how much Joe prioritizes Barry over both his children. Wally's entry into the West family was made all about Barry, and Joe to a lesser extent. None of Iris's family has any negative reaction towards her life being endangered because of Barry twice, for Flashpoint or for him being Savitar. 

If it was something limited to the Wests, I think I'd be more inclined to think race was an influence, but the same thing happened repeatedly with Caitlin as well.  In the first season, shes in mourning for Ronnie but then when he was alive, half the time she seemed to be totally fine with him not sticking around.  Then when Ronnie is really dead in season two and the show took Caitlin's grief and made it all about Barry.  She gets to apologize to him for her distant behavior and make him up as a hero cause he's feeling bad about his death, when it should have been the other way around.  

And Barry's mother has never been her own person.  She's nothing but a damsel and an ideal for him to miss.  And Barry's dad hardly was ever allowed to express his grief for his wife, that was only for Barry to do.  

I think the show has shown over and over that women and their PoV are not a priority on the show.  

Edited May 23, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Trini]

19 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Was it just me or did any one else find Iris wanting caviar odd?  Apart from fish eggs, gross, have we ever before seen Iris with such fancy tastes?  It seemed an odd enough craving that I seriously wondered for a second if they were hinting she was pregnant, but that seems unlikely with the whole dying plot hanging over her head. 

Well, besides to send Barry off so she could make the recording, caviar is typically regarded as an expensive delicacy; something that Iris has probably never had before, so she wanted to eat some before she possibly dies. 
 

17 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I wonder when they'll have her be pregnant on the show....

Dramatic pregnancy storylines always work (I can only imagine the episode where Iris gives birth), but it's what to do with the baby (or babies) after that that becomes an issue. If the show goes on to last ten seasons, it could be a problem. If it only goes for 7, then a birth in Season 6 or 7 is perfect.

I'd be very surprised if they ever have Iris go through a whole pregnancy on the show. Ever. For those^ reasons, and because I don't think "Barry Allen: Family Man" is the show they want to do. I do expect flashbacks/flashforwards and future Flash kids to show up, though.
 

11 hours ago, Grace19 said:

Lol, I wonder why most people think Grant cannot be sexy, its not just here. People always blame him for westallen few PDAs. I don't think that's fair, it might not even be his fault. Anyways if there is any truth to that, then after this show is over it may affect his ability to get lead roles, a lead should be able to play whatever role is required of him.

I think it's the writers/producers/directors. Not the actors. (Or the network.) None of the other couples on the show are getting much PDA either.

[Katsullivan]

On 5/22/2017 at 8:07 AM, Grace19 said:

Oh, you know why. The same reason Caitlin/Cisco is not popular, Cisco is not white. I bet that if Cisco is white, Barry/Cisco and Caitlin/Cisco would be very popular. Seriously Barry/Cisco is the only non canon ship that makes scene to me, they are so close and trust each other.

This. Caitlin/Cisco are basically Hermione/Ron aren't they? Caitlin is the uptight bookworm and Cisco is the brilliant joker. If Cisco was White, that pairing would be catnip to the  fangirls. 

12 hours ago, Trini said:

I think it's the writers/producers/directors. Not the actors. (Or the network.) None of the other couples on the show are getting much PDA either.

Linda/Barry and Iris/Eddie got loads of PDA in season 1. And I remember the Hawkes getting it on in season 2. 

It looks like the no-PDA ban only came in effect when they realized they had to do Westallen.

[BkWurm1]

Well I hated Hermione and Ron.

[notagain]

or it could be that the top shipping couples follow the " fine thin line between love and hate" and or "opposites attract", therefore it's usually a pairing of hero/villain, hero/ anti-hero, and protagonist/ antagonist. It may be why Barry/Leonard is more popular, and if you look at other fandom m/m slash fanfic pairings (I used a03) this tends to hold true... Harry/Draco, Steve/Tony, Naruto/Sasuke. 

Of course this all depend on which fanfiction site you use, cause on a3o Hermione/Ron has the most works, but on fanfic.net Hermione/Draco has the must works over Hermione/Harry(2nd) and Hermione/Ron (3rd), and on harrypotterfanfiction.com the same pattern follows. 

[johntfs]

For my part I never saw Caitlin/Cisco as a romantic pairing.  In Season Two I figured Cisco would be paired with Jesse.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

 All those m/m pairings are all pretty little white boys.

And yet the assertion that they are also 

 

1 hour ago, doram said:

"opposites attract", therefore it's usually a pairing of hero/villain, hero/ anti-hero, and protagonist/ antagonist

remains completely valid.  

[tofutan]

And their argument is that opposites attract doesn't come into effect anymore as soon as one person isn't white. 

I think there have been many popular ships that were "on the same side". The are often still opposites attract, for example if one character is serious and the other is more snarky or fun loving. Sterek from Teen Wolf are on the same side, Arthur and Merlin from Merlin, McShep on Stargate Atlantis (interestingly both Merlin and SGA had poc canon love interests). Dorky nerd guy and main guy is popular just like dorky nerd girl and main guy is. 

Edited May 24, 2017 by tofutan

[tofutan]

I never perceived Scott as looking very POC, so I just assumed fandom wouldn't either (like with Wentworth Miller). He for example doesn't strike me as darker than let's say Bellamy from The 100 who is popular. But I was always puzzled by the lack of Scott shipping, so maybe you do have a point. 

I'll never get over how there is more Shawn/Lassiter than Shawn/Gus in the Psych fandom: https://archiveofourown.org/tags/Psych/works 

I can get that antagonistic personalities are appealing, but then I remember that there was next to no Ronon slash in SGA despite the show having Jason Momoa, somebody who is arguably one of the most attractive people in Hollywood and his character was if you look at the writing and setup basically perfect to be either an angst bunny in fandom or a growly top guy. 

It would be interesting to see whether slash, femslash or het is traditionally, percentage-wise more open to characters of color (and whether in het there is difference on whether the man or the woman is POC). 

Anyway, back to relationships and Flash, were you happy with how Westallen was done in the finale? I kind of hated how happy Barry looked being all "this is my penance" while Iris is crying. 

Do you see things going into the right direction? It would be cool if season 4 could start off with Barry still missing and Iris being the driving force to try to get him back rather than it being about Barry trying to free himself, but what do you think are the chances?

As for Cisco and Caitlin, I still think that on paper they seem perfect to be a couple that has him pining and eventually down the line maybe in the last season have her fall for him for all his loyalty and faith in her. I know that "nice guy" pining has (rightfully) gotten a bad rep but I think it can be done well. I think Kira/Odo on DS9 was a decent portrayal of him silently being in love with her for a loooooooooooooong time and her being floored when she finds out the depth of his feelings. 

Edited May 24, 2017 by tofutan

[ruby24]

Yeah, AGAIN the camera cuts away from their kiss and we see like .10 seconds of it, plus it's close mouthed. Someone needs to tell those two to OPEN their mouths when they kiss and also the camera needs to not immediately cut away from it! The hell? 

Look, again, no other couple has this problem, it's like they just really, really don't want to linger on them kissing at all. It's so frustrating.

[tofutan]

I liked it when I saw it  but now this thread made me paranoid and doublecheck and analyze every instance of "body acting". It had many things I liked/wanted, the Iris/Joe scene was glorious. They kinda put Westallen into an impossible situation, since HR's sacrifice would make it kinda seem inappropriate if Westallen were too happy. 

Still, kinda sucky that Barry taking part in the big HR death scene was more important than him reacting to Iris being alive and when he reacts it's right back to "chase the badguy". 

I think they could have kissed quickly when they see the changed newspaper (before the Savitar stuff hits them full force). And they could have stood closer to each other in the plan making discussions. And of course then Iris immediately finds the time for another scene where they sit together and listen to him waxing on about Savitar, hate and heroism. And they really sat too far away from each other in the couch scene. I wasn't the hugest fan of how when Barry says his goodbye, he says it to a bunch of people, then talks to Iris, then to a bunch of people again, then final goodbye with Iris. It just felt like Barry and Iris were being interrupted, they could have done it in a "save the biggest one for last" kind of way. Of course this doesn't mean that Westallen were bad, those are just some things that could have been done to make it more personal. 

Overall, since we were talking about how Flash does it versus how Supergirl does it, I think the Westallen kiss was much prettier in the way it was shot. But overall I think I prefer how Supergirl did it. It was messier overall and the focus was on what they were saying but I liked it. Probably because both of them were crying (hint: you can cry and kiss at the same time). It really didn't sit well with me how happy Barry looked to go to the speedforce (even though I'm glad that Barry if getting punished for Flashpoint). When Iris just got "them" back. 

On the plus side, that save from the building looked pretty epic. 

This is where I think they should have shared a quick kiss before going in to hug joe. 

Anyway, Supergirl goodbye versus Flash goodbye:

I don't have it from the same yet, but yeah, that was one ugly, messy kiss on Supergirl: 

Westallen makes a prettier picture. On the other hand Kara can snuggle like a champ.

Though I think my favorite part of physical acting in Supergirl was the way she gave him the necklace. 

In a weird way, Iris touching Savitar was probably the second most shippy moment after the kiss at the end. 

And I notice that the show took another dig at Snowbarry by having Savitar threatening Caitlin to get Cisco to comply. To me it even came across like that was his main purpose for working with her. BTW, Cisco's love for Caitlin was once again front line full force. So why isn't that a ship? Even if the show wants to the see the beauty in platonic love, it just smacks of a thing where at least there should be shippers who want more. 

Edited May 24, 2017 by tofutan

[ruby24]

Look how much longer Kara/Mon-El hold the kiss though. And the camera actually shows us, whereas Barry and Iris touch lips and immediately pull way, like they ALWAYS do. God, that's so annoying. 

They had ONE good kiss this season, and that was the makeout from episode 4, which was probably written in the script as "they're making out," thereby forcing Grant and Candice to open their mouths for once. They need to fix this. I demand a passionate sex scene for their reunion early next season and they need to let the camera show it.

[tofutan]

I'm not sure whether length was really the problem. the Kara kiss was interrupted very quickly by, well, Kara sending him away. And the camera was so close for most of it that you can't really see much of it for all the hair and hands in the shot. 

While for Westallen, I thought the camera did give them nice framing and did linger on them at least for the bits before, where his hands are also on face. I dunno, I just have a hard time picturing somebody from the directing being there and telling them "hop, hop hurry it up". 

That said, that reaction shot cut to Gypsy and Cisco really was completely unnecessary. 

Still my full hate on is mostly for "Stop looking so damn happy, Barry, that you are leaving your fiancee to go to jail!". 

BTW, Supergirl also featured this short but really pretty full body shot of Martian Manhunter and Miss Martian: 

That's a case where I don't mind the camera cutting for further away because it actually lets us see better how they are touching each other. 

Edited May 24, 2017 by tofutan

[ruby24]

Okay, but that first scene of MM kissing, the camera holds on their lips touching for much longer than WA- it never fails to cut away from them as soon as they connect. 

Yeah, it showed their heads touching for a bit immediately after they stopped kissing, but we never see them kissing for longer than a split second. 

[tofutan]

BTW, the Kara/Mon-El goodbye scene is Kara and Mon-El and nobody else and it's 1:44 in length. While Flash is Barry saying goodbye to everybody and their dog and it's only 1:28. That sure makes it seem like Flash rushed all of it. (even if you account for the alien ship taking off taking longer than walking into the portal, you can like at the most shave off 20 seconds for that, so at the most equal length except that Flash has like 4 times the amount of people in it)

[commenting on that because I came a bunch of people drawing parallels between the two finales, with one part of the couple walking/flying off into an unclear future]

ETA: Here is a more flattering comparison, compairing similar shots of the two end scenes, that I think comes off more flattering, especially since it focuses more on the first part of the kiss, the one before they cut to Cisco and Gypsy, which IMO was very good the way Iris grabs his neck and you can see the ring: 

http://taurusclh.tumblr.com/post/161010655940/misomeru-supergirl-2x22-the-flash-3x23

Edited May 24, 2017 by tofutan

[johntfs]

3 hours ago, tofutan said:

I'll never get over how there is more Shawn/Lassiter than Shawn/Gus in the Psych fandom

I've never gotten much out the whole "let's put two characters of the same gender who obviously are straight into a gay romance with each other."  Is there an opposite to that where somebody puts a gay man and a lesbian in a romance together?  Or even one gay one straight of the opposite sex?  Any Modern Family fanfic with with Gloria and Mitchell as a couple?

That said, Shawn and Gus would an obvious slash couple.  Hell, I kind of figured one reason Juliet O'Hare was introduced and steered toward Shawn was to make sure Shawn and Gus didn't become a couple in canon.

That said, if anyone wants a slash idea, how about Wally and Hartley (who is theoretically supposed to be friends with Team Flash)?  At least way there's a gay character with someone who is at least played by somebody who is bi-sexual in real life.  So there.

Oh and as far as inter-racial displays of affection, WestAllen could take some lovin' lessons from Jack Carter and Alison Blake off of Eureka.

[LolaRuns]

Wentworth Miller has said that as far as he's concerned Captain Cold is pansexual. 

There are many theories on why slashing happens. 

• Back in the 80s some characters really were supposed to be gay but not allowed to be so the creators had to use coded language
• It's like pornography, just like straight men don't like to look at other men's penises and might hence like looking at girl on girl porn, some women don't like looking at other women in their porn
• On male heavy shows with no romance some women still crave romance and add it by having it take place between the characters
• Some people seem to think that your romantic relationship automatically must your overall important relationship and from this comes the inverse idea that the most important relationship must also be romantic/sexual 

A typical example is Star Trek where most of the women were weakly characterized but the men had deep relationships with each other. Romantic straight relationships and attractions were presented, but usually with meaningless guest star characters which is unsatisfying for people who want to see longer, deeper relationships. So sex is added to already longer, deeper relationships, rather than the existing romantic relationships being made deeper. 

[johntfs]

30 minutes ago, LolaRuns said:

Wentworth Miller has said that as far as he's concerned Captain Cold is pansexual. 

And now I want to see a fic that has Captain Cold as one of Lucifer's exes from the show, Lucifer.

Or just have Wentworth Miller guest on Lucifer.

[Karlophe]

6 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Yeah, AGAIN the camera cuts away from their kiss and we see like .10 seconds of it, plus it's close mouthed. Someone needs to tell those two to OPEN their mouths when they kiss and also the camera needs to not immediately cut away from it! The hell? 

Look, again, no other couple has this problem, it's like they just really, really don't want to linger on them kissing at all. It's so frustrating.

Honestly, the bts footage was better than the final cut. He gives her a proper kiss and they...well, cut it. 

[Trini]

I noticed they referenced Barry & Iris' song at least 3 times in the finale. Man, they really want people to remember that musical!

[Grace19]

I get opposite attracts in fandom, but when its a POC, that goes out the window. I only started reading fan fiction after CA:winter soldier came out in 2014, since then I have noticed this in online fandom.

Go to any fandom on Ao3, the most popular ships are white m/m slash ships. There is always a reason why the person of colour is not right for anybody, and when they ship them with somebody, that ship is always a background ship and they are always too supportive of the white characters, they rarely have a life of their own.

Look at gamora and peter, they are opposites but people rarely care about them, scott from teen wolf, bonnie, dont get me started on sam wilson, as much as i love stucky, this character is mostly used as a therapist in fics. James/tony is another underrated ship, they are opposite charaters, but stony is more popular and worse is that, james rhodes rarely show up in a large role in facfictions, they will even go ahead and have tony say that steve is his best friend. Its like the poc characters are invisible, writers find it heard to relate to them or sympathies with them, they are expected to be perfect before anyone could give a damn about them. This has happened too many times to be a coincides.

[Grace19]

Back to the flash, I felt a little bad for savitar. I loved his interactions with Barry and Iris. An alternate reality where savitar survived is a fanfiction waiting to be written. 

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, Grace19 said:

I get opposite attracts in fandom, but when its a POC, that goes out the window. I only started reading fan fiction after CA:winter soldier came out in 2014, since then I have noticed this in online fandom.

Go to any fandom on Ao3, the most popular ships are white m/m slash ships. There is always a reason why the person of colour is not right for anybody, and when they ship them with somebody, that ship is always a background ship and they are always too supportive of the white characters, they rarely have a life of their own.

Look at gamora and peter, they are opposites but people rarely care about them, scott from teen wolf, bonnie, dont get me started on sam wilson, as much as i love stucky, this character is mostly used as a therapist in fics. James/tony is another underrated ship, they are opposite charaters, but stony is more popular and worse is that, james rhodes rarely show up in a large role in facfictions, they will even go ahead and have tony say that steve is his best friend. Its like the poc characters are invisible, writers find it heard to relate to them or sympathies with them, they are expected to be perfect before anyone could give a damn about them. This has happened too many times to be a coincides.

So, most fanfic writers are racist idiots with too much time on their hands?  Sounds right to me.

[tofutan]

Do you think they'll try to give Iris another love interest since they included a line about Barry asking Iris to move on and live her life etc? Personally, I really doubt it, because it just feels like they have done that already. Plus with the way they wrote them, it just seems it would require a massive time jump before that would seem even remote realistic. As a viewer I would expect for one Barry to be back and Iris just carrying the torch for him the entire time. 

I'm just kinda sad that we'll probably not get a proper portrayal of Iris grief outside of fanfiction, you know, going home to the empty apartment, cancelling all the wedding stuff, etc. 

[ruby24]

Nah, I think Iris is going to be the one to pull Barry out of the speedforce in the first episode, tbh. She'll be the one determined to get him out. 

Also, the save-the-date card said November 28, 2017 on it, which cannot possibly be a coincidence. Several people have confirmed this and I couldn't see the exact numbers, but I definitely saw the word November on there. That to me means the writers want to attempt a big crossover wedding episode. 

[Trini]

I don't think they will bring in another love interest, either. (And I'd feel sorry for the poor guy that would immediately get forgotten once Barry comes back -- because you know he will.) I can't see Iris moving on so fast (5 or so months, most likely) when she knows Barry is gone but not dead. The chance of him coming back is still there. Also it would negate everything they built up with Barry & Iris this season. Which I wouldn't put it past them to do, but I think the chance is very low.

I think the references and reminders of their engagement and wedding planning in the finale indicate that they will be able to pick up where they left off when Barry returns.

About the wedding date; I'm keeping my expectations in check because it could just be a placeholder/easter egg. A November wedding would have worked before, but with the Savitar drama, and Barry missing in the Speed Force (for how long?), I can see them postponing it to later in the season. But I do like the idea of all the characters from all the shows coming together for a wedding.

[ruby24]

9 minutes ago, Trini said:

 

About the wedding date; I'm keeping my expectations in check because it could just be a placeholder/easter egg. A November wedding would have worked before, but with the Savitar drama, and Barry missing in the Speed Force (for how long?), I can see them postponing it to later in the season. But I do like the idea of all the characters from all the shows coming together for a wedding.

They could also could have left that card blank or complete scribble, but it definitely said November and that particular month, imo, can't be a coincidence. 

[Trini]

Yeah, it's not a coincidence; but between the time they wrote that in, and when TPTB work out the details for the crossover and arcs for each show, I can easily see the wedding date being changed if necessary, that's all.

---------

In non-WestAllen news: Cisco and Gypsy have a connection that spans the multiverse! I like them together, so I appreciate the sentiment; but I hope they actually explore that and show rather than just tell.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

 

Did you miss this 

Quote

 

 ON 5/23/2017 AT 4:07 PM, DORAM SAID:

Compare instead, the popularity of Kylo/Hux 2 pretty white boys on the same Team Evil against Kylo/Finn.

 

? (Sorry if I assumed wrongly that you knew these characters from Star Wars.)

 

I saw the movie once.  Zoom, right over my head.  

On 5/23/2017 at 8:51 PM, tofutan said:

can get that antagonistic personalities are appealing, but then I remember that there was next to no Ronon slash in SGA despite the show having Jason Momoa, somebody who is arguably one of the most attractive people in Hollywood and his character was if you look at the writing and setup basically perfect to be either an angst bunny in fandom or a growly top guy. 

Shepard and McKay pretty much cornered the slash crowd on SGA before Ronon ever showed up, but i can point out that Ronon got heavily featured with just about every female on that show in fan fic.  I know this because believe me, I went looking.  He may be the one reason that I absolutely will be going to see the likely to be crappy Justice League movie. Rrowwrrr!!  (Sorry, you triggered a happy place for me)

[BkWurm1]

6 hours ago, tofutan said:

Do you think they'll try to give Iris another love interest since they included a line about Barry asking Iris to move on and live her life etc? Personally, I really doubt it, because it just feels like they have done that already. Plus with the way they wrote them, it just seems it would require a massive time jump before that would seem even remote realistic. As a viewer I would expect for one Barry to be back and Iris just carrying the torch for him the entire time. 

I'm just kinda sad that we'll probably not get a proper portrayal of Iris grief outside of fanfiction, you know, going home to the empty apartment, cancelling all the wedding stuff, etc. 

I think you can count on the show NOT doing a big time jump since it has to stay relatively in line with Arrow and MG has already gone on record that Arrow will have it's normal summer hiatus time jump when it starts up.  

My guess is that Iris is NOT going to cancel the wedding stuff and that she is holding onto hope but everyone around her will be looking at her with pity and concern since she isn't really moving on.  

Quote

Don't get me wrong - I liked that the writers finally acknowledged that there should be a twisted/dark kind of connection between Iris and Savitar. And they got scenes together that highlighted their chemistry: - the way Savitar melted when she placed her hand on his scars, the way they kept looking at each other, even that hilarious moment when Iris told Savitar "I will be there for you" and Barry's brows knotted in this "I'm not sure I like where this is going" way. But considering that it was on the heels of her just barely escaping being murdered by him, that whole scene lacked narrative integrity. 

If time remnant can be made just by grabbing someone out of the recent past and bringing them forward like Barry describe, they could have just made a time remnant of Iris for Savitar.  Of course Iris might be a little pissed that instead of marrying Barry, she's supposed to reform EVUL Barry before she has a shot at her HEA, but who knows, maybe she has a secret weakness for the badboy type.    

Edited May 26, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Mellowyellow]

44 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I think you can count on the show NOT doing a big time jump since it has to stay relatively in line with Arrow and MG has already gone on record that Arrow will have it's normal summer hiatus time jump when it starts up.  

My guess is that Iris is NOT going to cancel the wedding stuff and that she is holding onto hope but everyone around her will be looking at her with pity and concern since she isn't really moving on.  

If time remnant can be made just by grabbing someone out of the recent past and bringing them forward like Barry describe, they could have just made a time remnant of Iris for Savitar.  Of course Iris might be a little pissed that instead of marrying Barry, she's supposed to reform EVUL Barry before she has a shot at her HEA, but who knows, maybe she has a secret weakness for the badboy type.    

haha I am sooooo trained to spot fanfic opportunities on the Arrow forum as soon as I read this I thought "Faaaaan fiiiiiiic"

[johntfs]

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Of course Iris might be a little pissed that instead of marrying Barry, she's supposed to reform EVUL Barry before she has a shot at her HEA, but who knows, maybe she has a secret weakness for the badboy type.

If I was a writer for a day on the show, I'd put together a scene with Iris and Julian (who is British and therefore not just White, but, like, Chlorox White).  They'd talk about missing Barry and Caitlin and someone would make a comforting gesture.  And then it would turn into a 3-5 minute steamy, sweaty, roam-the-house, wreck-the-furniture sex scene.  Just one random, unintended, but center-of-the-sun hot hook-up.

And then Barry comes back and I'd be like "Okay, go back to that peck on the cheek, pat on the shoulder bullshit now, bitches."

[phoenics]

23 hours ago, doram said:

It bothered me that Savitar did not play a more direct role in HR switching places with Iris and that Barry did not save Iris. The man she loved failed to save her, and the man she loved succeeded in murdering her.

I agreed a while ago that the only acceptable outcome of the Savitar=Barry theory would be if Savitar had no intention of killing Iris herself, but always planned on using a decoy that would deceive Barry. He needed Barry to think Iris was dead, after all and it would make a twisted kind of sense for him to callously sacrifice someone in her place, wreck Barry enough to do-whatever-it-is-he-does-to-create-Savitar (the particulars of which were never made clear to us, time remnant theory notwithstanding), while all the while keeping Iris alive for himself. There was even a theory on tumblr that this was why he needed Killer Frost to destroy Cisco's hands and his ability to vibe because Cisco would have been able to know that Iris was still alive if he still had the ability to vibe.

This last-ditch effort to restore Savitar's humanity would have made far more sense if Barry & Iris had somehow discovered this - that Savitar had no intention of killing Iris. It would also have made the "sympathy for the devil" moments have more weight. But that was too much for the writers. Instead we have the emotional whiplash of Savitar snarling and smirking at Iris and "look Joe, she's accepted her fate" to him mumbling, "I proposed to you. I sang to you. And you're gonna spend your life with him and somehow expect me to be OK with that?" 

Don't get me wrong - I liked that the writers finally acknowledged that there should be a twisted/dark kind of connection between Iris and Savitar. And they got scenes together that highlighted their chemistry: - the way Savitar melted when she placed her hand on his scars, the way they kept looking at each other, even that hilarious moment when Iris told Savitar "I will be there for you" and Barry's brows knotted in this "I'm not sure I like where this is going" way. But considering that it was on the heels of her just barely escaping being murdered by him, that whole scene lacked narrative integrity. 

So I completely agree with this... but man did I ship the hell out of Savitar and Iris in that scene. I mean - no one can claim GG and CP don't have chemistry after that.  I mean, I was in actualy PAIN watching that scene and how angsty and charged it was.  GG's Savitar just melted into a puddle when CP's Iris touched him and talked to him... and the way she walked over to him before that and he couldn't even look at her?

Good grief - that was so so powerful.

And a fic must happen.  

But I agree that it was whiplash because Savitar had tried to kill her - HER!  Honestly our theories that SAvitar just wanted Barry to think Iris was dead made MUCH more sense because seeing him absolutely melt like that in her hands makes it impossible to believe that he could ever kill her.

I wailed like a wounded animal after Iris told him they were gonna help him and then he said thank you and then they were interrupted but still seemed held together with some invisible string - good lord.

Whew.  

[Trini]

2 hours ago, phoenics said:

And a fic must happen.  

Soooo much fanfiction fuel just in the last few episodes! It's like they knew they were going on hiatus or something. ?

[BkWurm1]

7 hours ago, doram said:

Time remnants only exist for speedsters. (At least, until the show retcons even that). 

It's not like the show has ever tried to go for a non speedster remnant.  Maybe they only think it would only work for speedsters.  Honeslty, time remnents (or at least the killing of one) is a conceit that makes zero sense so one should be able to make it work to cough up a spare Iris.  Maybe whatever magic they were going to whip up to "save" Savitar could also be applied to an Iris remnant an make her stable.  

Again, it seems on some level wrong to conjure up a girlfriend for Savitar without the Iris having a say in it, but the fan fic writer could fix that by having the present Iris know deep down that she would want to connect to Savitar, therefore the time remnant could be of an Iris that would have already agreed.

 Or they could go the extra step and set it up that they bring forth an Iris and ask her and if she says, no, they could just return her to the time stream.

Originally I was going to say they could give her the option of just fading away (by not engaging the thing that would stabilize her remnant)  if she didn't want to mend his broken heart but that seemed too close to telling her to do it or die, lol.  

Edited May 26, 2017 by BkWurm1

[phoenics]

I like the idea of finding an Earth without a Barry...  and matching Savitar with that Iris...

[Mellowyellow]

20 hours ago, Trini said:

Soooo much fanfiction fuel just in the last few episodes! It's like they knew they were going on hiatus or something. ?

I've never looked into Flash fan fic but how are they for you guys? Do you have lots of really good authors who consistently write and update stuff?