Spoilers With Speculation

[Binns]

Finale is titled "Alpha and Omega"....hmmmmmm

[catrox14]

Ohhhh. shit. 

 

I'm leaning back to one of my original specs that the beginning of the season was the end ( in media res) and we end with Dean in the Vortex and all of this is has been what will happen if Dean doesn't kill her and go to the empty with her .

 

"I am the alpha and the omega

"I am the beginning and the end"

 

Shit.  This is gonna be a wild ride to the end methinks...hopes...terrified?

[SueB]

Expectation alignment for me: It's Buckner Lemming. If there are no dog F*cking jokes it's positive. But I expect them to do a stupid Dean & hetro sex joke because I think they are allergic to Dean showing any kind of concern for Cas. It's always jarring.

But I worry a bit: why is Dean with Amara that she shows him Casifer being tortured. And why does he get to leave?

Edited April 23, 2016 by SueB

[Binns]

It's definitely twinging some thoughts for me. I think it's like 99.99% that we will see God, for one.

[catrox14]

Expectation alignment for me: It's Buckner Lemming. If there are no dog F*cking jokes it's positive. But I expect them to do a stupid Dean & hetro sex joke because I think they are American to Dean showing any kind of concern for Cas. It's always jarring.

But I worry a bit: why is Dean with Amara that she shows him Casifer being tortured. And why does he get to leave?

 

I think it will be a vision she imparts to him. Like she zaps him away again and does like a vulcan mind meld thing. But because it's buck leming and Dean will super worried and fighting to save Cas and being loving towards Cas they gotta NO HOMO that shit and it will be a vulcan mind meld via kiss. Mark my words. 

Edited April 23, 2016 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

I won't be at all surprised if Dean ends up in the Empty with Amara at the end of the season.  The Sam/Dean hug pics we saw had goodbye written all over them.  There has to be some sort of payoff to their season long bond.  

[Aeryn13]

I gotta say BuckLeming`s episodes this Season were FAR better than Dabb`s for Dean so I stopped dreading them so much. At least he will get a scene with Amara even though it is totally random for her to show him how she tortures Lucifer/Cas. Why? She has to know he won`t appreciate it in terms of Cas. So it`s not like "let me show you my kickass album collection" in the hope`s of impressing your date.

[Demented Daisy]

Collection of spoiler links for Alpha and Omega at the wiki.

[MysteryGuest]

Well, we basically have 4 myth arc episodes left this season, since The Chitters looks like straight up MOTW.  Some of what's left will be taken up with the explanation of whoever Chuck is, and I'm assuming some sort of confrontation between him and Amara.  Unless Chuck isn't God (fingers crossed!), and he just gives the boys some ideas as to how to lock her back up.  I'm really leaning more and more toward the idea that the Amara storyline continues into next season.  

 

Dean is the one who had the Mark of Cain.  He has the bond with her because of that.  He is going to have to be the one to lure her somewhere that they can trap her.  Or, if the rumors are true that Mary makes an appearance (in whatever form that may be), it's possible that she lures Dean somewhere with the promise that he can possibly help his mother, or something like that.  Lucifer is Sam's demon (no pun intended), so I think he's the one who will play the biggest role in getting rid of him, but I really do think that Dean is on board for dealing with Amara.  And I'm assuming it's going to involve a nice big sacrifice...just like always.  

[SueB]

And a cliffhanger.  

 

You know, I'm really curious to see Rowena and Chuck/God talk.  Did they really stick them together in the back seat of Baby?  And... I think someone needs to do a "Baby's Back Seat Chronicles" for all the varieties of people that have ridden back there.  But, I digress, regarding Rowena: I mean, what does she have to lose?  I kinda hope she rips on him for the patriarchal nature of our world.  And I kinda hope Chuck/God admits he f*cked that up.  

[catrox14]

And a cliffhanger.  

 

You know, I'm really curious to see Rowena and Chuck/God talk.  Did they really stick them together in the back seat of Baby?  And... I think someone needs to do a "Baby's Back Seat Chronicles" for all the varieties of people that have ridden back there.  But, I digress, regarding Rowena: I mean, what does she have to lose?  I kinda hope she rips on him for the patriarchal nature of our world.  And I kinda hope Chuck/God admits he f*cked that up.  

 

You know I would have 100% been on board Rowena doing that if was the Rowena of s10 and the Rowena right up until Devil In the Details.  Damn I really do hate that episode in the end.

 

They were selling Rowena as woman of her own choosing who got pregnant at a coven orgy or something celebrating the solstice or whatever. That's a very feminist idea. I don't want marriage and I don't want to be controlled, so I'll join the coven and have some fun. She was making her way in her own diabolical manner. She seemed to be going for the "girl power" covens but has the nasty habit of killing those women but weren't of use to her.

 

Fucking Buck Leming and Andrew Dabb took all of that away in 11.09 and 11.10 especially Dabb. I don't understand why the did this or what they are going for. 

 

It started in 11.09 with Rowena fangirling over Lucifer. It was humorous until 11.10 and we learn she was seduced by Lucifer into helping him or her thinking she will be by his side as the Queen of Hell as a reward for helping him (RUBY 3.0?)

 

But then Dabb puts her in GD collar so Crowley could control her and ultimately he uses that to compel her to tell him why she hates him. And you know I could live with that because Rowena had a plan, and it backfired. Fair enough. She's still doing her thing and it's still "fuck the patriarchy", I'm doing my thing.

 

But then we get this nugget of shit.

 

 

I hate you, because when I look into your eyes I see the woman I used to be, before magic, before the coven. When I was nothing but Rowena, the tanner's daughter. A pale, scared little girl, who smelled of filth and death. I hate you, because when you were born, your father said he loved me, then he went back to his grand wife and his grand house, whilst I lay pathetic and half dead on a straw mat -- my thighs slick with blood. I hate you, because if I didn't, I'd love you. But love, love is weakness. And I'll never be weak again.

 

IMO the bolded really undermines EVERYTHING about Rowena that was interesting to me.  I don't know why they did it that way. I mean was it to make us feel sorry for Rowena? Or to make her look worse?

 

But it raises questions about why Rowena was with a married man. 

Was she forced into it by her poor father?

Was she seduced when she was too young to understand the consequences for herself?

Was she okay with being with a married man because he made promises he didn't keep?

Did she seduce the married man because she saw a way out of her impoverished life and it blew up in her face?  

 

Don't get me wrong. I completely understand that society in her day and age were the literal worst for women. Heck, I would be okay with her choice to be with a married man because few choices in her day. Yet I'm left with a sense that if Rowena had not had an impoverished childhood she wouldn't have cared quite so much about the patriarchy. Or if that representative of the patriarchy, the married man, had left his wife and stayed with her and their child maybe she wouldn't be quite as upset with the patriarchy as she seems to be now.    Even as she claims to be about female empowerment, she's seducing them with promises of food, clothing and shelter and using them for her best interests. She's doing the same thing as the married man that didn't stay with her.

 

I dunno. I'm just really unhappy with that choice to do that to Rowena. I mean it almost reduces her to being angry because she was a jilted lover and a baby mama to a married man.  UGH. Terrible writing choice IMO. I don't get it.

Edited April 23, 2016 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

Rowena has had no problem using and killing women in her own quest for power and domination so for me it would be eally hypocritical to have her be a key-note speaker on the evil of female oppression to God. The way the SPN-God has been depicted in his absence paints quite an unflattering picture but I don`t want him to called out by villains. I have two and a half shows on the CW where villains can call out villains and have it make sense. This ain`t one of them.

 

Amara, she has a case because we know she has imprisioned by him for eons and how/why that all went down is still unclear. So they should hash it out. Dean, I would just love to see slam the door in his face. But the likes of Rowena, Crowley or Lucfer can zip it. What would they call God out on? Being cruel and mean? Ha. They can hate him fine, I`d have no problem with that but lecturing, no. 

[Demented Daisy]

catrox, did you miss the most important part of her speech?

 

I hate you, because when I look into your eyes I see the woman I used to be, before magic, before the coven. When I was nothing but Rowena, the tanner's daughter. A pale, scared little girl, who smelled of filth and death. I hate you, because when you were born, your father said he loved me, then he went back to his grand wife and his grand house, whilst I lay pathetic and half dead on a straw mat -- my thighs slick with blood. I hate you, because if I didn't, I'd love you. But love, love is weakness. And I'll never be weak again.

 

 

Did you not believe her?  Because if she was a little girl, then she did nothing wrong and it perfectly explains why she hates Crowley -- and explains why she doesn't want to love him, either.

Edited April 23, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[Aeryn13]

I think Rowena was young when she had Crowley but "little girl" strikes me more as her own perspective on herself now. She has so much more knowledge and life experience and power now so this persona is basically a child to her. My guestimate of her age when she gave birth would be 17ish. Which I do not qualify as little girl anymore.

[catrox14]

catrox, did you miss the most important part of her speech?

 

 

Did you not believe her?  Because if she was a little girl, then she did nothing wrong and it perfectly explains why she hates Crowley -- and explains why she doesn't want to love him, either.

 

I'm not really seeing where anything I wrote implies I didn't believe Rowena nor did I miss anything.

 

It seems to me Rowena was talking about two different parts of her life.

 

1) As an impoverished little girl who hated and was ashamed of her life. 

2) Then later when she gave birth as teenager, probably 16 or 17 probably

[Demented Daisy]

I just find it interesting that the blame for the situation seems to be on the 17 year old, not the older, rich, married man.

[catrox14]

I literally have never cared about Rowena and Crowley's relationship in that I don't care why they hated each other. They are both assholes at this point. 

 

I blame Rowena's treating other women in the same way she has been treated by men but pretending it's all about girl power. It's not. It's about Rowena power. 

 

I think my larger comment can stand on it's own as to what I was addressing with Rowena's characterization.

[SueB]

Huh.  I wrote a thing and it's MIA. Lucky for you all, I'll just summarize:

 

- I think it provided a reasonable, although somewhat cliche, backstory.  But I think more important that the backstory was how Rowena COMPLETELY reshaped her life.  Not as a woman scorned but as someone who will not be without power.  Even at 17 she had to know sleeping with a married man in that era was a risky move.  She's never struck me as remotely "dumb".  Just someone who can create a narrative in her head that works out like she plans.  So I think it's entirely possible that part of his attraction for her was the ability to improve her social status.  To get more power.  Her character has always put on airs in a way that shows this is what she desires.  So... IMO... less about a man and more about being made to feel powerless and deciding that having feelings for the man contributed to her being a mother without a husband.  But Rowena didn't just become jaded, she cut out anything that would make her weak.  That dramatic shift in personality is not from someone who was previously a kind person.  I think Amara had the sense of her - she really didn't have a sincere capacity for compassion. So I think her tears were more anger than sorrow with Crowley.  Anger that she had to become cold (in her mind) in order to have power.  That she felt she had to make that trade and it was unfair.**  But the trade (power versus love) is 100% Rowena's choice.  So, I don't feel the backstory made her either more sympathetic or more evil.  It just explained how she got to the point where she didn't ever love Crowley.  

-** I think she still holds her feminist card because it's the inherent power imbalance between men and woman that was prevalent for centuries that she's angry about.  That SHE had to make a trade while her asshole lover did not.  I also don't think her sucking up to Lucifer was anything but a power move.  Just like she was sucking up to Amara.  In both cases (and with Crowley the season before), she was looking to make herself indispensable to someone with greater power so she could leverage that power.  In all three cases, she has failed.  I wonder if she will EVER learn that if you are not really loyal to the person you are sucking up to, they are not going to be loyal to you.   

[lmdreamer]

What is the difference between luci using the HOG and crowley using it?  After casifer failed at killing amara with the weapon the boys speculated maybe only god's chosen can use it successfully.  Why was crowley able to use it against luci and simmons?  Would he have succeeded at killing luci if simmons had not jumped in front of him?  He 's evil and I have come to accept that if redemption is even remotely possible for crowley it would be really difficult but still....?  I asked my mother and she said maybe because the weapon recognised a confliction or duality in casifer that wasn't in crowley, IDK. Has this been discussed yet? Any thoughts?

 

I spec maybe it will be either dean or castiel once he expels luci.

[SueB]

It DID generate power (blast of something shot at Amara) but it wasn't enough.  So, I think Dean was speculating that to be "enough" it has to be God's chosen.

Personally, I think this will NOT be a power vs power confrontation.  They've laid plenty of groundwork that a slugfest won't work.

[MysteryGuest]

So, since this week's episode appears to be another MOTW, shall we take bets on which brother will give the obligatory "we have nothing on Cas or Amara, so we might as well go on a hunt" speech?  I'm thinking it's Dean's turn.  I hope the writers try something a bit different this week, since we've heard that same dialogue in multiple episodes this season.  Maybe they'll be actively looking for Cas and just stumble on the Chitters.  

 

Have we actually had extra hiatuses this year?  I don't remember having a break after the long break last year.  3 separate hiatuses in one season is too many, IMO.  I'm ready to see how they intend to wrap up this season's storyline.

[SueB]

Hmmmm..... I see Sam pushing Dean into the hunt this time. It's definitely Dean's turn BUT he's been consistently distraught about the Cas situation.

What would be nice is if we had a passage of time thing. Like it's been 4 weeks and they think it might be related but turns out not.

[catrox14]

 

"Some seriously weird stuff is coming down the pipe," Misha Collins (Castiel/Lucifer) told fans at Creation Entertainment's Las Vegas Salute to Supernatural. "I told some of my friends some of the stuff that's in the final scripts that we're shooting now and they're like, 'That's awesome...I think I might watch the show.'"

 

http://www.enstarz.com/articles/155839/20160424/supernatural-season-11-finale-title-revealed-what-does-it-mean-for-the-winchesters-video.htm

 

So if this was at VegasCon, which was in March when there was a Hellatus for the viewers, he must have been talking about Hell's Angel and beyond. And Misha...I hope you had your friends sign non-disclosure agreements!

Edited April 25, 2016 by catrox14

[catrox14]

11.20 Promo

I've been wondering when Metatron would show up again....and there he is. 

[Binns]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

11.20 Promo

I've been wondering when Metatron would show up again....and there he is. 

 

It's interesting to me how distressed he looks. Maybe he found his humanity. 

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Binns said:

It's interesting to me how distressed he looks. Maybe he found his humanity. 

Or he knows something about something and he's not telling and he's terrified that he's gonna be killed by Amara.  He knows more than he told Cas. There is NO way he doesn't. NO way. He's the Scribe of God after all.

[SueB]

3 hours ago, Binns said:

It's interesting to me how distressed he looks. Maybe he found his humanity. 

I thought the same thing too!  I don't know if I can handle a Metatron redemption plot BUT, he sure looked freaked.

[catrox14]

Just now, SueB said:

I thought the same thing too!  I don't know if I can handle a Metatron redemption plot BUT, he sure looked freaked.

I thought he looked freaked to but I thought as would be typical of Metatron it was more like "Oh, shit, I'm dead" vs 'Oh shit, y'all are screwed."

[SueB]

Looking at the finale pictures: well at least Dean isn't wearing the demon red shirt.  He IS, however, wearing the blue jacket of bad ideas.

 

Looking at NEXT weeks' promo pics and Chuck's absence from the promo: I wonder if Chuck only communicates with the boys via either computer or Metatron.  I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't interact with them face to face until EP21.  It looked like he was hiding behind a computer again and not in the same place as the fog monster.  We need Tippi's picture again....

[catrox14]

Looking at the finale pictures: well at least Dean isn't wearing the demon red shirt.  He IS, however, wearing the blue jacket of bad ideas.

LOL. Have I sparked an obsession in you too, Sue?

[SueB]

Absolutely. 

Other guess, I think Chuck is in the same bar as Metatron based on decor. 

[Demented Daisy]

9 hours ago, SueB said:

Absolutely. 

Other guess, I think Chuck is in the same bar as Metatron based on decor. 

He is.  They're sitting across the table from each other.  In the picture of Chuck at the computer, in the lower left corner, a man's hand is holding pages.  I suspect that's Metatron.  Sharing story ideas?  Does Metatron know Chuck?  Does Metatron know Chuck's (potential) secret?

[SueB]

That's what I thought too (that this is Metatron's hand).  And I think Metatron will recognize God straight off, as they spent so much time writing together before.

 

Different thought:  I keep trying to explain why I feel God can't overpower Amara.  And I keep falling back to a frequency analogy (which NO ONE is going to get because it's too nerd-ish).  But the promo for next week pinged that feeling again.  So let me 'splain:

- In the promo, the fart cloud converts the sheriff to a rabid and she tells Dean that Amara has a message for him.  This is yet another case of it feels like they can 'sense' each other (Amara and Dean) but they don't have a constant connection they feel.  And this promo, IMO, tells me that Amara can't reach into Dean's mind from afar.  She can't just give him a message directly.  Apparently she doesn't have a phone (quick... someone write a 'fic about Dean giving Amara his phone and her starting to call people randomly... like Uncle Crowley, and Sam, and Jody...).  So maybe her solution is to send off a fart cloud, knowing he'll show up and then she can get Dean's attention.  

- But this is another example of how her power is not part of this universe.  She's got raw power that can damage, but she doesn't 'heal' in this universe. She moves herself about and has that telekinesis thing working for her, but while it's powerful, she seemed to have to develop it as she grew up.  Like when she killed the three angels attacking her in the field.  The first one she sort of worked at.  The second she tried something different.  By the third, she just poofed him away.  

- Then you've Lucifer and a Hand of God and there's nada impact.  Again, I'm reminded of frequency.  It's like Luci was wielding a boat-load of energy but not a frequency that hurt Amara.  So she just let it bounce off or get absorbed.  She wasn't damaged.

All this brings me to... she and God have equivalent but DIFFERENT power.  It's why he had to lock her away before... because her power is incompatible with his and his universe.  She can destroy but she doesn't create here (is my guess).  

[catrox14]

Metatron claims to be the Scribe of God. He says he knows God. IF he didn't already know Chuck was God then he should ping right away that Chuck is God IF Chuck is God. IMO If he doesn't ping that Chuck is God then either Chuck isn't God or Metatron has been lying about knowing God.

[Demented Daisy]

IMO, if Metatron doesn't ping that Chuck is God, then God might be hiding from Metatron -- just like the amulet never worked in his presence. God can pretty much do whatever he likes.  If he doesn't want Metatron to recognize him, then he won't.

[catrox14]

Well that's it then. Everything is explained Because God! 

****************************

This does bring up many thoughts about God, Amara and possession in the SPNverse.

Angels need consent to possess a human but demons do not. Why is there a difference? 

Archangels and angels are God's children and humans are God's other creation but they are not the same species.

Demons were all human at some point so they still have human DNA. So maybe that is why then can possess a human. Humans and angels are different species so I thought maybe biology would prevent possession but it doesn't make sense that consent would nullify biology.  

If biology is not a factor then why does the rule exist for angels? Was it something God decreed? If so, why would God make that rule? To prevent his children from taking over his other children? That would make sense. God should practice what he preaches. If he follows his own rule then God would need consent from a potential vessel. Which means if Chuck is God's vessel then at some point Chuck would have given him permission. So does Chuck just NOT remember giving that consent? What if God didn't make the rule but angels did? What if they made that rule because they saw God destroy vessels? 

Amara took an infant. She could not have gotten consent from an infant and it doesn't appear that the father gave consent...so did Amara possess her in the womb or after she was born? Did the mother die in childbirth because she gave birth to the Goddess' vessel. Did the mother give consent for Amara to take her child? Since we have no information one way or the other, I'm going with Amara did not get consent.

If Amara didn't need consent then it stands to reason God doesn't either. But why would he do that to a human being yet his angel children must get consent? If God took Chuck but never told him and never got his consent then he's really no better than Amara and demons.

[Omegamom]

Morals and ethics.  Angels need permission because it's The Right Thing To Do.  Demons, and Amara, don't, because they're evil and don't give a hoot about other people's agency.  "Permission?!  We don't need no steenking permission!"

I suspect angels actually don't, technically, need permission, but it's a cultural thing.  Maybe stuck in their core programming.

As for God, my head!canon is that he doesn't possess people at all, just takes on a different form and only uses a wee tad of celestial power when he's interacting with mortals.  Or maybe he just does it telepathically, and never was physically there at all.

[catrox14]

Quote

Morals and ethics.  Angels need permission because it's The Right Thing To Do.  Demons, and Amara, don't, because they're evil and don't give a hoot about other people's agency.  "Permission?!  We don't need no steenking permission!"

 

Except many angels, especially the archangels, do not subscribe to "It's the Right Thing To Do". They coerce consent through violence, manipulation, seduction, lies. Not seeing the morals and ethics there myself.

Death called The Darkness an amoral force and thus far I think that has been proven true. She just is and does whatever she wants. I don't like what she does but I can't classify it as evil. Or at least the show hasn't made that particularly clear.

I find it interesting that Lucifer, the fallen archangel, who still needs permission to possess a vessel, is the one that created demons. I think he was already a dick angel when he refused to love humanity which is why God had him cast into Hell. But because he already had the Mark when he was in Hell, I think the amoral force of the Darkness took him over more and more and combined with being an arrogant dick archangel...he decided demons were a thing to make. I still want to know WHY he made Lilith in the first place. 

Edited April 30, 2016 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

I may have to just go into deep denial and create my own head cannon that Chuck is not God.  I just don't even want to have to deal with it.

[catrox14]

I was watching the promo again. The shock on the boys' faces don't match just seeing a fog bank roll over them. IMO the message for Dean will be in the fog bank.Like literally some kind of vision of Cas being tortured. The whole town will see it but because it's supposedly causing people to go mad, they won't remember or they won't believe it happened.

[Demented Daisy]

http://www.spoilertv.com/2016/04/the-cw-primetime-listings-for-week-of_29.html

 

SUPERNATURAL
“We Happy Few” — (9:00-10:00 p.m. ET) (Content Rating TBD) (HDTV)

THE FINAL COUNTDOWN – Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) face their biggest challenge yet. Rowena (Ruth Connell) makes her move. John Badham directed the episode written by Robert Berens (#1122). Original airdate 5/18/2016.
 

Well, shockingly, that tells us a lot.  ;-)

[catrox14]

Oh great. The Final Countdown. I swear to gods if they hadn't already announced a s12 renewal I would think this is the end of the show.

The Final Countdown. I couldn't help but think of the film The Final Countdown in which a modern aircraft carrier is sent back in time due a time anomaly, to before the attack on Pearl Harbor.  IIRC there was stuff about time paradoxes and where people ended up and when and whether their actions would change the past or if they should leave everything alone and allow the attack to happen. 

Given that Berens wrote the Vessel..and we've had time anomalies...I wonder if this will have Sam and Dean getting thrown back in time before the Darkness was released. Like maybe Dean has the option to take on the Mark again and time resets before everything goes sideways. Hmmmmm

ETA: Ahh, never mind I can't read. I got confused about the episode title. But fuck it I'll leave my spec here anyway. LOL

Edited April 30, 2016 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

I think "the final countdown" is just something the promo person came up with. It`s probably supposed to be a pun on it being a little countdown to the Finale. The title is still "We happy few".  

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think "the final countdown" is just something the promo person came up with. It`s probably supposed to be a pun on it being a little countdown to the Finale. The title is still "We happy few".  

Yeah I figured that out after my reply. LOL derp

[Omegamom]

Callback to Henry V, and his St. Crispin's Day speech...

"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers."  The rallying speech just before they go to battle.

[SueB]

Or the appropriate Spike version: "We Band of Buggered"

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Omegamom said:

Callback to Henry V, and his St. Crispin's Day speech...

"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers."  The rallying speech just before they go to battle.

Yes , I know. Talked about it upthread. LOL. I just couldn't read this time

[catrox14]

[SueB]

I'm so excited for tomorrow!

[Diane]

Me too!