Spoilers, Speculation & All Things Media!

[verdana]

Matt's Inside Line: Scoop on POI, Castle, Arrow, The Originals, HTGAWM, Supernatural, Jane, P.D. and More at TV Line

 

Any chance we’ll get some more clues about LokSat by the Castle fall finale? –Rachael
That Nov. 23 episode, “Mr. & Mrs. Castle,” promises to be the most LokSat-heavy of the November sweeps hours, as we gain better insight into Kate’s plan. Per co-showrunner Alexi Hawley, “Ultimately what she’s trying to do is find a way to get to LokSat through the drugs,” having secured the “fingerprint” of the heroin Vulcan Simmons once peddled on Bracken’s behalf. “That drug pipeline is still open, so if she can match the unique fingerprint of that heroin to a different dealer or a different distribution hub, then she knows she’s close to LokSat.”

 

Oh joy a "Locksat-heavy" episode to see us out of 2015, can't wait.

 

That told me nothing other than what I already know - that she's trying to get a lead through the drugs angle.

 

Better insight? They should have been giving me that right from the start not made me wait 8 episodes to find out more. Sigh. I don't see anything good coming out of this fall finale in terms of genuinely positive progression with this story, just more convoluted layers being added. 

Edited November 11, 2015 by verdana

[KaveDweller]

Do you think someone actually asked that question, or did Matt make it up to fit info he had.

Of all the questions to ask about Castle, wondering about Locksat seems pretty low on the list.

[verdana]

Heh sounds like he could have made it up. Can't say it got the blood racing reading that one.

[Sonik Tooth]

I have a feeling that Mr&Mrs Castle (storyarc wise) should have occured directly after the first two, maybe three episodes of this season. Making all the unnecessary questioning, advices, sniffing and pining obsolete.

[CastleSeason8]

I have a feeling that Mr&Mrs Castle (storyarc wise) should have occured directly after the first two, maybe three episodes of this season. Making all the unnecessary questioning, advices, sniffing and pining obsolete.

Everything has been filler and unnecessary. For those who quit watching, you havent missed a bloody thing. Not one piece of info, not one forward step. So, ur absolutely right. Oh, and werent we promised character development from the start? That was something they said that sounded like it was going to be season long progress. Funny...

[Castle75]

It's a real question.

[verdana]

Yeah if you had stopped watching after 8.02 and pick it up again at 8.08 you will have missed nothing. 

 

For all their talk about increasing continuity etc they've followed exactly the same pattern as Marlowe, the story may get more mentions but there has been no further development in the Locksat investigation or the status of their separation. 

 

After the "shift" has taken place, I predict yet more filler episodes when we come back next year until the next sweeps period. 

Edited November 11, 2015 by verdana

[KaveDweller]

Ah, but they'll be coming back in February, which is during sweeps. We skip all the filler January episodes we usually get.

Filler can be good sometimes. If it is fun filler, not angsty filler.

[TWP]

 

On the face of it the decision to write Beckett completely out of Cool Boys would also seem to be down to the showrunner because "XY" showed how they could still include a few Beckett scenes even when Stana wasn't available for most of the filming schedule. Caskett never met face to face In Plane Sight, only skyping a few scenes, and Beckett was hardly in that episode.

 

Just a guess, but maybe they didn't include her at all because they didn't want to pay her full episode rate for a 1-2 minute spot...   The promo was just a travesty, though.

[KaveDweller]

If she's contracted to be in every episode, they're paying her no matter what.

[Brit Babe]

I think you have to look at it in terms of what makes sense. Showrunners of aging shows want an easy ride, churn out some generic episodes with some crowd pleasing elements along the way. They don't want to piss off nearly every last viewer to the point where they are hurling abuse at them day in, day out and lose said viewers from the show. They are not looking to shake things up to the point where future jobs are at risk or are having to deal with press backlash. What we have in my eyes are conditions set down that the writers are having to adhere to, the fact is the leads are only working 1 day together or its hourly equivalent at the moment as evidenced by the episodes themselves. There is a tumblr out there counting up the minutes that are Caskett moments including phone calls etc which take that out and we have a days worth of filming.

 

I will say this, in very rare cases does anyone ever come out and say anything. They don’t want to be sued by the network etc so people who do say something keep it as vague as possible for plausible deniability reasons. This allows fans to believe one way or the other.

[VinceW]

I have a feeling that Mr&Mrs Castle (storyarc wise) should have occured directly after the first two, maybe three episodes of this season. Making all the unnecessary questioning, advices, sniffing and pining obsolete.

Agree. In the normal turn of events, the separation arc should have only lasted at most three episodes (3-5) and included the investigation of the assistant AG murder. Castle has access from his office to a surveillance video that shows a possible suspect. Beckett telling him about the drug "fingerprint" would have opened up both of them working on it together. If the "shift" is only about the drugs and there is no crossover with Castle about the link to LokSat, then the long hiatus will just mean another huge drop in viewership. The "Cool Boys" episode lost over 1/2 million viewers.

Edited November 12, 2015 by VinceW

[BellyLaughter]

I'm not so sure that the 'split' is the sole cause of the ratings demise and that a reunion can do anything to stop the slide. The numbers were way down from the first episode this season and they were still together then. I think it's just Castle's "time to go" - that's ok it's had a much longer run than many were ever expecting it too. I will always wonder if the ratings would be the same no matter what - not having a cliffhanger last season probably hurt but ultimately wouldn't have changed much. When even your hardcore internet groupies are abandoning ship it's time to say goodbye and be grateful for what you have!!

[KaveDweller]

What we have in my eyes are conditions set down that the writers are having to adhere to, the fact is the leads are only working 1 day together or its hourly equivalent at the moment as evidenced by the episodes themselves. There is a tumblr out there counting up the minutes that are Caskett moments including phone calls etc which take that out and we have a days worth of filming.

 

But regardless, they didn't have to break them up to give them less screen time. That was the writers call.  I don't think they'd be getting nearly as much criticism if they had them still together but investigating separately with the PI vs. Captain angle.

[WendyCR72]

Beckett should not even be captain. I know, I know. TV. But hell, even most TV captains are desk jockeys, providing direction for the "main" cops on other TV shows. With Beckett as the main cop, the show wanted to have its cake and eat it too, and it just doesn't work.

 

And even with fiction, Beckett the Bestest Cop Ever is at least 5 to 10 years too young for this. And Castle as a PI is just dumb. The whole concept was a writer shadowing a cop. Again, the changes undermine the premise and don't work.

 

Then again, not much is working right now.

[oberon55]

For all their talk about increasing continuity etc they've followed exactly the same pattern as Marlowe, the story may get more mentions but there has been no further development in the Locksat investigation or the status of their separation.

 

So far I have been underwhelmed by all the promises made by the new bunch. Lets check the progress of some of them after six episodes:

 

1) Hayley was going to be a mentor for Alexis. So far her mentoring includes teaching Alexis how to manipulate men & giving Alexis a double thumbs up when she basically told Castle to kiss her ass. That's about it.

 

2) Kate's obsession pretty much boils down to working out with a heavy bag, a file & a phone call.

 

3) Castle is now a grown ass man. We know this because of the mature & adult way he has approached the breakup (also because Lanie told us).

 

4) Delving deeper into the supporting cast:

 

a. Ryan - taking a bribe, failing his sergeant's exam & shooting his partner. Conclusion: Ryan is now a complete fuck up.

 

b. Esposito - passed his sergeant's exam & got shot in the ass. Conclusion: Potential butthurt sergeant.

 

c. Alexis - she drinks skotch & knows about S&M. Conclusion: She is now an adult because we all know sex & drinking are a great sign of maturity.

 

d. Martha - Really don't know much new about her except she has an amazing understanding of Beckett's motivations. Conclusion: She is the writers mouthpiece. Her job is to push their agenda.

 

e. Lanie - Nothing new. She still gives the worst advice in the Northern Hemispere. Conclusion: Same as always.

 

5) Beckett & Castle are still deeply in love. We know this because of Castle's devious plan to win his wife back & because Beckett has pheromones when Castle is around. Oh yeah they also smell each others shirts. They have really done a good job of reigniting the sparks from seasons past.

[Chado]

I'm not so sure that the 'split' is the sole cause of the ratings demise and that a reunion can do anything to stop the slide. The numbers were way down from the first episode this season and they were still together then. I think it's just Castle's "time to go" - that's ok it's had a much longer run than many were ever expecting it too. I will always wonder if the ratings would be the same no matter what - not having a cliffhanger last season probably hurt but ultimately wouldn't have changed much. When even your hardcore internet groupies are abandoning ship it's time to say goodbye and be grateful for what you have!!

I don't buy that at all. 2-3 years ago Bones was dead to rights, they made the changes at the top, they turned it around. Who would have thought Bones would out live Castle 2 years ago? Nobody but the most die hard fans.

 

Castle had a chance to be bold, to fix the errors from 6x23. They 'removed' Marlowe and added his puppet David Amann. He had a chance to pull away and correct things, didn't even try. Continued down the same path. Ratings continued to bleed.

 

This season, you get two new showrunners. Thier masterplan? Split up Castle and Beckett. They continue to write filler episodes, move the season plot at an incredibly slow place. Add guest characters to chew up screentime. Nothing that corrects, or attempts to correct, what was wrong with the show. ABC probably had thousands and thousands of words from viewers last season, about what they did and didn't like. They should be intelligent enough to realize this wasn't going to fix anything.

 

The DVR numbers, the ones who don't feel the need to watch the show live anymore, would watch the show live if they felt it was worth watching over something else. The show could easily still be getting 1.6 if there was a storyline that generated an interest, but there isn't. If the show was getting 1.4-1.6 in the live demos, there would be no talk about cancellation at all. That's on the current showrunners, that's on the current writers. Yes the show started off to low ratings, but it was picking them up in DVR, so ask yourself, why do none of them watch live anymore?

 

"It's just Castle's time to go" is removing the accountability of it all. It's time for the show to get cancelled because the showrunners have and still are, failing. They are unable to properly send their message to their audience. They are not getting the audience to buy in to their vision. That's on them.

 

All this negativity, is because of choices made by the showrunners. Those choices are why the show will not get a season 9.

[BellyLaughter]

I don't buy that at all. 2-3 years ago Bones was dead to rights, they made the changes at the top, they turned it around. Who would have thought Bones would out live Castle 2 years ago? Nobody but the most die hard fans.

 

Castle had a chance to be bold, to fix the errors from 6x23. They 'removed' Marlowe and added his puppet David Amann. He had a chance to pull away and correct things, didn't even try. Continued down the same path. Ratings continued to bleed.

 

This season, you get two new showrunners. Thier masterplan? Split up Castle and Beckett. They continue to write filler episodes, move the season plot at an incredibly slow place. Add guest characters to chew up screentime. Nothing that corrects, or attempts to correct, what was wrong with the show. ABC probably had thousands and thousands of words from viewers last season, about what they did and didn't like. They should be intelligent enough to realize this wasn't going to fix anything.

 

The DVR numbers, the ones who don't feel the need to watch the show live anymore, would watch the show live if they felt it was worth watching over something else. The show could easily still be getting 1.6 if there was a storyline that generated an interest, but there isn't. If the show was getting 1.4-1.6 in the live demos, there would be no talk about cancellation at all. That's on the current showrunners, that's on the current writers. Yes the show started off to low ratings, but it was picking them up in DVR, so ask yourself, why do none of them watch live anymore?

 

"It's just Castle's time to go" is removing the accountability of it all. It's time for the show to get cancelled because the showrunners have and still are, failing. They are unable to properly send their message to their audience. They are not getting the audience to buy in to their vision. That's on them.

 

All this negativity, is because of choices made by the showrunners. Those choices are why the show will not get a season 9.

 

You can blame the show runners this season all you want but the audience for the first episode this season was down 39% from the last episode last season and that was before any of us really knew what they were attempting to do.  I am not completely absolving the show runners/writers because they could have righted the wrongs but figures like 39% sing natural attrition to me - and it wouldn't matter what they did this season the numbers were always gonna be poor.  You can compare it to Bones but thats like comparing apples and oranges.  All shows have a point where they run out of organic storytelling - lots of factors contribute to this so comparing show against show is to simplistic - to many moving parts are in play.  Castle's moving parts are just making a mess this year.  Good for Bones in reinvigorating itself but Bones is Bones and Castle is Castle.  They each have their own tale to tell and IMO Castle's is done.  We are merely feasting on the corpse at the moment.

[KaveDweller]

Beckett should not even be captain. I know, I know. TV. But hell, even most TV captains are desk jockeys, providing direction for the "main" cops on other TV shows. With Beckett as the main cop, the show wanted to have its cake and eat it too, and it just doesn't work.

 

And even with fiction, Beckett the Bestest Cop Ever is at least 5 to 10 years too young for this. And Castle as a PI is just dumb. The whole concept was a writer shadowing a cop. Again, the changes undermine the premise and don't work.

 

Then again, not much is working right now.

 

They probably felt like they had to do something because of how things were left last season and knew a senate campaign wouldn't work with the show.  It would have made so much more sense to just promote her to Sergeant and given her more to do while still being in the field.  Or do what some people suggested by creating a task force she could lead. But they sort of got screwed by having her jump to the captain's exam last season.

[Chado]

The fact is, we will never know the truth insofar as actor relations go unless someone writes a tell all or E! does another True Hollywood Story show on Castle. But with that said...

 

These rumors have been around for some time now, and...I don't know...with the separation on screen and rumors of wanting less work and those long-standing rumors of strife, the old saying, "Where there's smoke, there's fire" comes to mind for me.

 

I hope I am wrong! I'd hate to think NF/SK can be so spoiled and unprofessional, but I don't think this all comes down to complete fiction, either.

I think two things are certain in this situation.

 

1) Their relationship has changed from earlier seasons.

2) They are spending less time together on-screen.

 

The debate comes from why those 2 things are the case and what has caused them. We probably won't ever have an answer, not one everybody will agree with.

 

I personally believe the whole tweets regarding "they only want to film 1-2 days together per episode" as Castle. The reason being, that is actually what is happening. Can anybody show proof of NF and SK being on set together more than 2 days each episode? I've tried to look this season, I couldn't find any indication that they are. Maybe it's just a coincidence, but the reduction of on-screen time has completely changed since the start of season 7. It's clearly intentional.

 

As for what you said WendyCR72, agree 100% that Beckett shouldn't have been captain. I think her character needs that authority figure to clash against, that's completely gone now. Who does Beckett have to keep her in line? I do wonder if all of this Lockset business will cause problems at her job, surely it has to?

[Chado]

You can blame the show runners this season all you want but the audience for the first episode this season was down 39% from the last episode last season and that was before any of us really knew what they were attempting to do.  I am not completely absolving the show runners/writers because they could have righted the wrongs but figures like 39% sing natural attrition to me - and it wouldn't matter what they did this season the numbers were always gonna be poor. 

Did you even read what I said? I made note that the situation was occurring way before the new showrunners took over. The show started bleeding at the end of season 6.

 

The numbers can be poor, if the live demo was up near 1.4. If it was 1.4, there would no discussion at all about the show getting cancelled.

 

The numbers they need, were realistic to achieve. It isn't a case of of the current showrunners being in a situation they were never going to 'win' in. That mentality is completely absolving them of responsibility.

 

Never once did I say they had to be getting season 7 numbers, but they need to be beating NCISLA, they need to be enticing more of the DVR viewers to watch live. That is the responsibility of the current showrunners.

[WendyCR72]

Let's watch the tone with your fellow posters, everyone. I realize this is a sore subject, but there's nothing to be gained with being short with each other.

[rspad]

Love the spirited debate and share the gripes lately shared about the show's direction, but just a little side-track that helps put things into perspective for me...grateful to be here to complain about a beloved show.

 

http://tvline.com/2015/11/11/nathaniel-marston-dead-car-accident-dies/

 

He played a small role in S3 "Last Call"

[verdana]

Love the spirited debate and share the gripes lately shared about the show's direction, but just a little side-track that helps put things into perspective for me...grateful to be here to complain about a beloved show.

 

http://tvline.com/2015/11/11/nathaniel-marston-dead-car-accident-dies/

 

He played a small role in S3 "Last Call"

Sad, I heard he'd been in car accident and now this sounds as if he would have been terribly disabled if he had survived, his poor mother.

[verdana]

As for what you said WendyCR72, agree 100% that Beckett shouldn't have been captain. I think her character needs that authority figure to clash against, that's completely gone now. Who does Beckett have to keep her in line? I do wonder if all of this Lockset business will cause problems at her job, surely it has to?

Much as I would love there to be consequences, she failed to turn up on her first few days at work as Captain and no one batted an eye at 1PP so I'm not holding my breath she gets into any strife over Lockshit. She appears to be able to do whatever she likes at the precinct which shouldn't be the case if they cared a fig about adhering to the character progression and story they've put in place. Edited November 12, 2015 by verdana

[westwingfan]

Rather than working with what he had, he tried to make it 2009 again. The characters have lost that lovin' feelin'. He should have found a way to bring it back in the present day. This was a mega-huge gaffe.

Here's some quotes from the showrunners about their reasoning and intentions for the season.

 

"The position will also provide the writers with a wealth of new story avenues for Beckett outside her professional life", says EP Alexi Hawley. “Since she doesn’t have to be boots on the ground in every aspect of the case, it also gives us opportunities with her to open up her character a little bit more and to take her down some other roads,” (EW Aug 5)

(Haven’t seen much of this so far, apart from showing off some body parts I'd say Beckett has been boring and rudderless most of the time)

 

“[Toks] plays a really dynamic, fun character,” executive producer Alexi Hawley tells EW. “It’s a voice that the show doesn’t have. (EW Aug 17)

(And didn’t need, a totally pointless character)

 

In fact, whatever challenges the couple may face this season, the producers are keen on furthering the core duo's relationship. "It's always been about the Castle-Beckett love story. That's steeped in the DNA of the show, and that's what it will always be," Winter says. "Now, it's about exploring the next evolution of it. How do we deepen that love story? What challenges can we put their way that can put their romance at a much higher, different place?" (TV Guide Aug 26)

(I really don’t understand where these writers are coming from, although their “romance” is definitely in a different place)

 

TERENCE PAUL WINTER | There are things we’ve been able to do in the following episodes that we would not be able to even broach, now that we’ve created this new paradigm in their relationship. And it’s created some really fantastic results. We’re really excited about what were able to give Nathan and Stana to play. It was a bold choice, it was a tough choice, but I can say this — and I speak for both of us: The characters of Castle and Beckett both mean a lot to us, and their relationship means the world to us as well. So we have a real plan for how to guide through this new path, and we really do believe it’s going to be something that will be satisfying overall. If people give us a chance, they’re going to really — hopefully — appreciate the journey that we’re going on. (TV Line Sept 28)

 

HAWLEY | Look, the most important thing for us is to A) tell a compelling dynamic story, but B) protect these characters. When we first started talking about doing this, the thing at the forefront was: How do we do it in a way that hopefully nobody gets mad at the characters? They can get mad at us, (TV Line Sept 28)

(Well they've done a great hatchet job on Beckett, and Castle hasn't come out looking too good either, so I'd say they have failed in their intentions)

 

WINTER | In every single episode, they do end up working together. They end up building theory together. They have all those delightful put-togethers. The sparks between them are electric if not more than ever, and that’s one of the main reasons why we made this bold choice. TV Line Sept 28)

(Cool Boys?)

 

Let’s face it, after 150 episodes we’ve done almost every case you could ever do. (Hollywood Reporter Oct 4)

(L&O SVU has managed 375 episodes, and NCIS has managed 290 episodes with much narrower COTW pools and they haven’t run out of ideas. With Castle’s imagination the writers should have a far greater wealth of plots to utilise)

 

Happily married is awesome, but it’s also not a value add in terms of dynamics. So we really came into it going, "What can we do to make this thing feel new again?’ (Hollywood Reporter Oct 4)

(Admitting they don’t know how to write a happy couple)

 

HAWLEY | Just even sitting in the editing room working on the next couple episodes, I was happy to see that I was feeling the same way about that relationship that I used to, that it makes you lean forward and you’re rooting for them again. You want them to get back together and all that stuff, which is a much more dynamic thing than just “They’re happy” — which is of course our goal but at the same time it’s not as dramatically interesting as rooting for them. (TV Line Sept 28)

(Well they seem to have failed dismally in their intentions as it seems to me that there a lot of people now who would be happy to see them split permanently because of the way they have told the story, and I wasn’t aware the audience had stopped “rooting” for them)

 

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: Was breaking them up a last resort? I’m assuming you all pondered other options.

TERENCE PAUL WINTER: Oh yeah we pondered several different options of what we could do this year and we kept coming back to this one because it created the most opportunity for interesting new storytelling. (EW Oct 5)

(So not necessarily what seemed right for the show)

[Brit Babe]

But regardless, they didn't have to break them up to give them less screen time. That was the writers call.  I don't think they'd be getting nearly as much criticism if they had them still together but investigating separately with the PI vs. Captain angle.

I suppose it depends on what the supposed “contract” of them not working together entails, if it’s just 1 day an episode - fine your statement rings true but I suspect if you’re going to go that far in requesting that you are going to have other requests, like maybe no romantic scenes, with a proviso that there maybe a couple near the end? I will saying splitting them up is an easy route to take for the above.

[madmaverick]

I personally believe the whole tweets regarding "they only want to film 1-2 days together per episode" as Castle. The reason being, that is actually what is happening. Can anybody show proof of NF and SK being on set together more than 2 days each episode? I've tried to look this season, I couldn't find any indication that they are. Maybe it's just a coincidence, but the reduction of on-screen time has completely changed since the start of season 7. It's clearly intentional.

 

I have no idea how many days Nathan and Stana or any of the other actors are on set, or how many minutes of those days are spent filming together.  For this season or any of the previous ones.  That's a level of stalking that's not for me.  I have no idea how many minutes Castle and Beckett are on screen in any given episode either and I don't care to know.  What a strange hobby to have to count screen time or actor schedules.  I would much rather go watch the copious amounts of quality television out there, go read a book, go outside.  Basically, anything that gives me enjoyment or is constructive.  I don't see how knowing the answers to screen time or on set time accomplishes anything useful for the audience experience of the work.  Quite the opposite.

 

Maybe I should start counting the screentime of the leads on Madam Secretary to discern the real life relationship of the actors and the state of their romance. ;)   Or the screentime between other actors on Castle.  Does the lack of screentime between Alexis and Beckett portend to bts strife also?  Same for Beckett and Lanie as well.  Where's the bts conspiracy theory about those actors resulting from the neglect of that friendship by the writers?  At various points, the Elementary writers broke up the partnership of Sherlock and Watson too and the actors shared more scenes with new characters.  Actors on shows like Game of Thrones or The Walking Dead can go for episodes without being seen.  My point is, screentime can ebb and flow depending on the story being told and that's not unusual.  It doesn't have to mean the actors don't want to work together. The simplest explanation to me is still that screentime is dictated by storytelling.

 

There were also a lot of people gnashing their teeth when Hayley's casting was announced coupled with Beckett's promotion to Captain and Alexis being in the P.I. office.  Some people feared Alexis and Hayley would dominate the screentime and sideline poor Captain Beckett in her office.  Reality has shown Beckett to be out in the field as much as ever, and Alexis and Hayley have not taken over the show.  My point is, people have made a lot of assumptions about screentime and other things in the past which turned out to be wrong.  

 

If there's a reduction in screen time, the simple reason could be that they are trying to tell a separation story.  Actually doesn't make sense for the characters to be together all that much when they are supposed to be separated.  Caskett have actually been together more than I expected since embarking on this separation storyline, to the extent that people are wondering about the point of separation for safety if they are together so much.

 

YMMV, but give me quality over quantity any time.  The Caskett scenes during endless banter free interrogations and dull as ditchwater superficial wedding planning scenes that lasted an entire season never did much for me.  The Caskett scenes during the P.I. arc where there was a change in their usual dynamic were more high energy and exciting to me.  I get that people don't like the separation story, but if Marlowe had stayed in charge, there's no guarantee it would have been any better.  We could have gotten another season of boring Caskett with him not knowing how to write a happy couple in an interesting, passionate way.  He never showed he could in the time Caskett got together so I don't see that changing.  Or we could have gotten a new obstacle story in another soapy, absurd way like season long amnesia.  The show's imperfect and far from the glory days of S1-2, but it was always unlikely it would recapture that quality.  As long as I still find things to enjoy about the show, and I still do, then I"ll keep watching.  If not, I'll stop watching.  It's as simple as that.

Edited November 12, 2015 by madmaverick

[Chado]

If there's a reduction in screen time, the simple reason could be that they are trying to tell a separation story.  Actually doesn't make sense for the characters to be together all that much when they are supposed to be separated.  Caskett have actually been together more than I expected since embarking on this separation storyline, to the extent that people are wondering about the point of separation for safety if they are together so much.

 

YMMV, but give me quality over quantity any time.  The Caskett scenes during endless banter free interrogations and dull as ditchwater superficial wedding planning scenes that lasted an entire season never did much for me.  The Caskett scenes during the P.I. arc where there was a change in their usual dynamic were more high energy and exciting to me.  I get that people don't like the separation story, but if Marlowe had stayed in charge, there's no guarantee it would have been any better.  We could have gotten another season of boring Caskett with him not knowing how to write a happy couple in an interesting, passionate way.  He never showed he could in the time Caskett got together so I don't see that changing.  Or we could have gotten a new obstacle story in another soapy, absurd way like season long amnesia.  The show's imperfect and far from the glory days of S1-2, but it was always unlikely it would recapture that quality.  As long as I still find things to enjoy about the show, and I still do, then I"ll keep watching.  If not, I'll stop watching.  It's as simple as that.

The reduction of screen time started to happen in season 7, it has nothing to do with their separation/break up.

 

Where is the banter between Castle and Beckett now? I don't see it. The writing as a whole is much stronger, but I don't see anything to get excited about in terms of Castle and Beckett. For most of this season, their interactions have been awkward and/or lackluster in my opinion.

 

The enjoyment is coming from things completely removed from Caskett, when that becomes the case, they've kind of removed what the essence of the show originally was.

 

Look at how many people rate 'Cool Boys' as their favorite episode of the season, an episode that didn't even feature Beckett in it. I think that's telling.

 

westwingfan has a great collection of quotes by the showrunners above, in my opinion...everything they've said, hasn't been evident in the show this season.

[KaveDweller]

The reduction of screen time started to happen in season 7, it has nothing to do with their separation/break up.

 

Where is the banter between Castle and Beckett now? I don't see it. The writing as a whole is much stronger, but I don't see anything to get excited about in terms of Castle and Beckett. For most of this season, their interactions have been awkward and/or lackluster in my opinion.

 

The enjoyment is coming from things completely removed from Caskett, when that becomes the case, they've kind of removed what the essence of the show originally was.

 

Look at how many people rate 'Cool Boys' as their favorite episode of the season, an episode that didn't even feature Beckett in it. I think that's telling.

 

westwingfan has a great collection of quotes by the showrunners above, in my opinion...everything they've said, hasn't been evident in the show this season.

There are people who say Cool Boys is there favorite episode of the season? I haven't noticed that.

For all the problems this season, I do think the chemistry between Nathan and Stana has been quite good. The storyline makes no sense, but they are portraying it really well, IMO.

[Chado]

For all the problems this season, I do think the chemistry between Nathan and Stana has been quite good. The storyline makes no sense, but they are portraying it really well, IMO.

Really? The only episode I think their chemistry has been anything resembling good, was in the Stanford Prison Experiment episode. The rest has been pretty bang average to me.

[Bubbi63]

Is there any basis of fact for how many days the two leads work together or this still rumor? if so could someone lead me to that info--thanks.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Bubbi63

[Julia]

I would have guessed that blind item was about David Boreanaz and Emily Deschanel, honestly. 

[westwingfan]

The fact is, we will never know the truth insofar as actor relations go unless someone writes a tell all or E! does another True Hollywood Story show on Castle. But with that said...

 

These rumors have been around for some time now, and...I don't know...with the separation on screen and rumors of wanting less work and those long-standing rumors of strife, the old saying, "Where there's smoke, there's fire" comes to mind for me.

 

I hope I am wrong! I'd hate to think NF/SK can be so spoiled and unprofessional, but I don't think this all comes down to complete fiction, either.

I think "Castle" had the seeds for its demise sown from the very beginning, irrespective of the what the two leads think of each other now. NCIS and L&O SVU are pure procedural where the backstories of the characters have been built up because of the longevity of those shows, Bones is not as dependent on its two leads as it was always written more as an ensemble piece and the romance wasn't as front and centre. Marlowe always emphasised that Castle was a love story, possibly influenced by his own situation with Terri, and built up the audience on the premise of a writer and his muse solving crimes together, and this inevitably required Nathan and Stana to be very prominent in every episode, but even if everybody got on famously it would eventually take its toll, the actors aren't getting any younger, so it might have been better if Marlowe had written it as a six season project and it could have ended with another feather in his cap. Sometime ago Nathan gave an interview where he talked about the British practice of ending a show on a high after a shorter run where there was less chance of boredom and staleness setting in. But I guess for a number of reasons they tried to keep the show going, but Nathan and Stana have not unreasonably negotiated a lessening of their load, and the showrunners are now forced to accommodate that. But as I said the core audience was built on Caskett being very prominent so they are not as interested in watching the other elements take up more air time at Caskett's expense. Yes there are people who don't watch for Caskett, yes, there are people who love Esplanie, Alexis, and Martha, yes there are Firefly orphans who watch just for Nathan, it appears from twitter that some even love Hayley, although for the life of me I don't know what she's doing on the show, but the core audience is the one that is not being satisfied at the moment, and it probably won't ever be anymore.

Those other shows I've mentioned have managed to keep their core premise pretty much intact over the years, despite some personnel changes, and I'm sure that is the reason for their continued success. "Castle" has ripped the heart out of what made it successful and will never be able to get that back, promoting Beckett was possibly the key decision as Castle and Beckett cannot function now as they used to, and this has caused Ryan and Espo to be used in a diffferent way which has further fragmented the four most important characters. Benson's promotion didn't take her away from working the cases, and Gibbs is still in exactly the same role as he started. I'm not interested in watching Castle 2.0 so it looks like Hollander's Woods will become my series finale. Watching reruns of earlier seasons just highlights what we're missing now, and, Mr Hawley please note, it isn't the WTWT. All in all I think we had a good run.

[KaveDweller]

Really? The only episode I think their chemistry has been anything resembling good, was in the Stanford Prison Experiment episode. The rest has been pretty bang average to me.

I thought it was best in that episode, but so wasbthe writing. Chemistry us really subjective though.

[madmaverick]

For all the problems this season, I do think the chemistry between Nathan and Stana has been quite good. The storyline makes no sense, but they are portraying it really well, IMO.

 

Really? The only episode I think their chemistry has been anything resembling good, was in the Stanford Prison Experiment episode. The rest has been pretty bang average to me.

Agree with KaveDweller.  The chemistry was especially good in the prison scene and in the scene where Castle made coffee for Beckett but didn't divulge the secret ingredient, to name two.  Actually reminded me of the energy in scenes in S3 where there was all that yearning and they were on the edge of diving in.  YMMV of course, but I think the yearning element adds something to the scenes for me.  I don't think anyone can say this season that Castle isn't a man in love who really wants his wife.

 

Nathan Fillion ‏@NathanFillion  

Occasionally, I see hateful tweets. When life seems bad, is the only answer spreading pain to others? Think on it.

Hugs.

 

Here, here.

 

I also loved the F. Scott Fitzgerald quotation that Stana tweeted.

 

Obviously, I don't know either actor but they don't seem like unkind people to me.

Edited November 12, 2015 by madmaverick

[Chado]

I don't think anyone can say this season that Castle isn't a man in love who really wants his wife.

Still waiting to see it from Beckett.

 

I also think that season 7x03 episode with the invisible person/suit was a better episode than this season's prison one. That had way better Caskett interactions and they were actually 'together' in that.

 

There still hasn't been a standout episode this season yet.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Chado

[westwingfan]

I'm not so sure that the 'split' is the sole cause of the ratings demise and that a reunion can do anything to stop the slide. The numbers were way down from the first episode this season and they were still together then. I think it's just Castle's "time to go" - that's ok it's had a much longer run than many were ever expecting it too. I will always wonder if the ratings would be the same no matter what - not having a cliffhanger last season probably hurt but ultimately wouldn't have changed much. When even your hardcore internet groupies are abandoning ship it's time to say goodbye and be grateful for what you have!!

I believe that the first promo for S8 that ABC put out which talked about Castle having a new job and only showing him as a P.I, with no Beckett, plus the "Family business" poster that showed Alexis as his "new" partner, contributed to the poor ratings that the premier got. I've mentioned elsewhere that although there are people who watch for all sorts of reasons other than Caskett, I think the majority do watch because of them, so when they were given a big hint that that was about to change I think a lot of that core audience was lost before the season even started. Those that were willing to give it a try were unlikely to give up on a show that they'd sat through 150 episodes after just a few they didn't like but there has been a steady drip drip since the premier, 0.2 in the demo and three quarters of a million viewers in just six episodes, and I think we might see a further significant drop after the winter hiatus because Caskett are still separated and they've had time to see how Beckett will function as a Captain over and above the traditional drop that seems to happen after Christmas.

Edited November 12, 2015 by westwingfan

[Gant]

Is there any basis of fact for how many days the two leads work together or this still rumor? if so could someone lead me to that info--thanks.

Going from everything I read/heard it's a persistent fandom rumor based on the screen time analysis and previous fandom rumors. There was nothing published anywhere, even in gossip rags, about anything of the sort during or after contract negotiations. I guess it just seems logical to suppose, when one goes by fan lore, and what one supposes the next one claims as truth etc.

[WendyCR72]

I believe that the first promo for S8 that ABC put out which talked about Castle having a new job and only showing him as a P.I, with no Beckett, plus the "Family business" poster that showed Alexis as his "new" partner, contributed to the poor ratings that the premier got. I've mentioned elsewhere that although there are people who watch for all sorts of reasons other than Caskett, I think the majority do watch because of them, so when they were given a big hint that that was about to change I think a lot of that core audience was lost before the season even started. Those that were willing to give it a try were unlikely to give up on a show that they'd sat through 150 episodes after just a few they didn't like but there has been a steady drip drip since the premier, 0.2 in the demo and three quarters of a million viewers in just six episodes, and I think we might see a further significant drop after the winter hiatus because Caskett are still separated and they've had time to see how Beckett will function as a Captain over and above the traditional drop that seems to happen after Christmas.

 

Sure, but all that you cite - advanced previews and the like - is online based. That does not account for average offline (which, even now, is considered the majority) viewers who don't see these promos or read Ausiello's Blind Items and would know diddly about a split, etc.

 

And I know people here have complained about cliffhangers and why so shows need them, etc. But last season had none and, for good or bad, I think that made it easier for the casual offliners to go elsewhere.

[westwingfan]

Sure, but all that you cite - advanced previews and the like - is online based. That does not account for average offline (which, even now, is considered the majority) viewers who don't see these promos or read Ausiello's Blind Items and would know diddly about a split, etc.

 

And I know people here have complained about cliffhangers and why so shows need them, etc. But last season had none and, for good or bad, I think that made it easier for the casual offliners to go elsewhere.

Agreed about the relativity between the on line and off line communities, but wasn't the promo aired on TV?

 

And 7x23 was written as a possible series finale which might have given some people the wrong idea so they didn't bother to check if the show was still on.

[WendyCR72]

Agreed about the relativity between the on line and off line communities, but wasn't the promo aired on TV?

 

And 7x23 was written as a possible series finale which might have given some people the wrong idea so they didn't bother to check if the show was still on.

 

Honestly, I barely see ABC promote the show now, so if that commercial did air offline, it was infrequent enough for people to miss it.

 

Not denying many do watch for C/B, but I just think its age has caught up for "regular" viewers that want something fresher. Hence the relative success of NBC's Blindspot in the same time slot.

 

 

 

And 7x23 was written as a possible series finale which might have given some people the wrong idea so they didn't bother to check if the show was still on.

 

Yes, 7x23 was a possible series finale, but even if folks thought so, those who would usually tune in to ABC after DWTS would likely check out what is in the time slot. And as Castle has never moved, it would be quickly learned the show is still airing. So I'm not sure I buy that much in terms of why the ratings have tumbled.

[verdana]

Reminds me of campaign promises.

When you see those statements from Hawley & TPW set out like that it brings it home what they're saying in print isn't showing up on my screen on a weekly basis or simply doesn't make any sense in terms of the kind of show they're responsible for that's got 7 years history behind it. Thanks for bringing those quotes together westwingfan.

 

“[Toks] plays a really dynamic, fun character,” executive producer Alexi Hawley tells EW. “It’s a voice that the show doesn’t have. (EW Aug 17)

Her purpose based on what I've seen is to act as a supplier of information on cases to either Castle or Beckett to move the plot along, that job is already being done by Espo, Ryan etc. So unless they have bigger plans for Hayley she's adding nothing of value that isn't already being done by an existing cast member. 

 

HAWLEY | Look, the most important thing for us is to A) tell a compelling dynamic story, but B) protect these characters. When we first started talking about doing this, the thing at the forefront was: How do we do it in a way that hopefully nobody gets mad at the characters? They can get mad at us, (TV Line Sept 28)

Epic fail. Ausiello may have said in his blind item they were fully prepared to face the wrath of the fans but I don't think the writers even with their prior experience were expecting quite the level of vitriol they've had directed at them over this separation.

 

One of the most damning statements was when TPW as good as admitted they wrote a story with no thought or respect for the history of the characters and boy is that showing.

 

Another telling (and depressing) admission is that the showrunners can't write them as a happy couple. They're not the only writers to be fair that can't manage it but this admission convinced me this separation would drag on a long time one way or another. Once you've admitted your lead couple are boring if written together what do you do when they finally reunite as they must? Think of ways to split them up again naturally. 

 

Of course judging chemistry is a subjective thing but to me this separation has not made their interactions any more interesting or packed more spark or sizzle as Hawley has suggested and nothing like the early days if that's the general idea. The last episode where I felt they consistently hit the mark was 7.03 (it felt like "old" Castle) as for this season 8.03 was okay but nothing that special.  All their moments are tainted by their separation, instead of "spark" I see sadness whenever clueless Castle and obsessed Beckett meet up.

 

The lack of joint screen time for Stana and Nathan is hurting the show. What I noticed most about Cool Boys is two actors with chemistry are even better when they have significant shared time together. In that way they can build up a rhythm and rapport back and forth as Fillion and Baldwin so ably did. That's what missing for me, that energy and spark which is generated by them interacting together properly not by skype, phone or a 30 second meet up.

 

Castle and Beckett still have chemistry but I don't see as much of it as I should, the writers are diluting that magic because they're spend so little time together. It becomes a pale shadow of what it once was when they were sharing substantial screen time every episode and there's no way they can get around that no matter how hard they try. Sadly I doubt this current situation is set to change. 

Edited November 12, 2015 by verdana

[madmaverick]

If I were to hazard a guess, I think NBC's new show Blindspot in the competing time slot, and the massive promotional budget that went with it, affected Castle's ratings.  Blindspot's promotional budget must have been many times that of Castle's, and that made a difference.  Also, after a certain point, there's always going to be people who want to try something new and shiny over the same old.  It's human nature.  Throw in a naked lead actress covered in tattoos, you're always going to attract some eyeballs. ;)

 

OT: Just watched the new Bond movie, Spectre.  I think it had a budget of something like $300m, and probably who knows how many people looking at the script.  And yet, the ending barely made sense and the plot wasn't far off from the convoluted mess that is Locksat on Castle. ;)

[verdana]

On a positive note, the cases are more interesting and there's less boring exposition. However, I dislike what they're doing to the boys suddenly, turning them into clowns and continuing to ignore Susan and Tamala who could provide further opportunities for good storytelling, especially Martha and it's about time the writers had Lanie genuinely acting like Kate's best friend instead of them talking about it in interviews. 

[Cyranetta]

 

 

Happily married is awesome, but it’s also not a value add in terms of dynamics. So we really came into it going, "What can we do to make this thing feel new again?’ (Hollywood Reporter Oct 4)

(Admitting they don’t know how to write a happy couple)

I think it goes further than admitting not knowing hot to write a happy couple. In order to write a happy couple, you have to think a happy couple is in its very nature a "value-added thing". I may be off the wall, but that attitude and the whole frat-boy humor of S8 strikes me as some sort of reversion to almost a 7th-grade level "guy thing" -- "girls is icky," and so is any kind of emotion other than a congratulatory high-five. Martha is really the only character who manages to escape that gravity well this season.

[Gant]

If one googles four day work week Castle, one would find many, many, many entries about how Nathan was negotiating for a four-day work week, and one would assume it's true in that case. One doesn't have to go by fan lore.

 

The question was about the leads' shared time, that is assumed to be contractually limited by 1-2 days (I've seen it stated either way). Like I said, so far, going by what I personally saw/read/heard, it's fan lore.

[verdana]

As for chemistry, I don't find one person groveling and trying to figure out if the other person likes them, as real chemistry. To me, that puts two people on an unequal balance. Please love me is not sexy. Sniffing shirts in lieu of a relationship? Not sexy. One person keeping the other in the dark about why they left them takes away the chemistry for me.

 

Oh I agree what they're showing of these two and their behaviour doesn't help magnify chemistry, it's such a difficult thing to pin down though, that intrinsic connection between two actors is something magical and not easy to explain and yet it can still find a way to percolate through. But to see it being squashed by crappy storytelling is incredibly disheartening because it's right there ready to be used and these writers are throwing it away. Sigh 

 

Yes, in writing, you need conflict. Otherwise you just have people going through the motions. That's the first thing you learn. But what you also learn is plot devices and contrivances to make that conflict happen is the worst thing you can do.

I have no problem with characters enduring bad times and going through some kind of conflict because that's real life but it has to feel organic. I don't need it to be rainbows and unicorns which is an accusation I've seen fans make towards those critical of this story but they're missing the point. What many fans are upset about with this separation is the conflict they're seeing feels contrived and silly and I can't get invested in that.  

 

And let me add that there is a HUGE difference between sending hateful tweets calling people names or in general being a jerk, and criticizing a show for shoddy work.

Since when is having a difference of opinion mean you deserve to be abused and/or ridiculed?  Fans should be able to accept reading criticism or praise of their show without resorting to insulting the person giving it. You don't agree with an individual's opinion that's fine but be respectful if you choose to engage with them in a discussion about it. There's a huge difference between responsible criticism and blind hate/attacks. I have no problem with the former and disgust and embarrassment for the latter.

Edited November 12, 2015 by verdana

[FlickerToAFlame]

I have a feeling Nathan's tweet is mostly about the hateful tweets his girlfriend seems to be getting.

Edited November 12, 2015 by FlickerToAFlame

[KaveDweller]

One of the most damning statements was when TPW as good as admitted they wrote a story with no thought or respect for the history of the characters and boy is that showing.

 

When did he say that? I've been reading most of their interviews, and while they've said some dumb stuff I don't remember him saying something THAT dumb.