Robert Goren: Batshit Crazy Or Merely Eccentric Badass?

[WendyCR72]

Discuss Bobby Goren and his love of the weird, obscure, and crazy here.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Despite what the show tried to "tell" me in the latter years, and inspite of D'Onofrio wanting to that horrific episode where he went into the mental ward, I never thought of Bobby as crazy, batshit or otherwise.  Just extremely intelligent and what's wrong with that, I'd like to know? Because he wasn't perfect--he was flawed.  And his cerebral and knowledge of all things, made for some funny and light hearted moments between him and Alex, when he tried to apply said knowledge against, you know, woman stuff!

[WendyCR72]

Hee! To "woman stuff". But I think Bobby always feared ending up like his mother and that drove his demons.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Hee! To "woman stuff". But I think Bobby always feared ending up like his mother and that drove his demons.

Well, he did say "Right. It's a girl thing" in "Cold Comfort" when Bobby was doing the walk through of how the victim's purse landed on the floor! Alex telling him it was on the hook of the stall door. Made him pause and utter that funny line.

[WendyCR72]

Well, he did say "Right. It's a girl thing" in "Cold Comfort" when Bobby was doing the walk through of how the victim's purse landed on the floor! Alex telling him it was on the hook of the stall door. Made him pause and utter that funny line.

Oh, I know. And it was funny seeing Goren look out of his element, but it was funny. Eames getting one up on him was nice.

[photo fox]

Yeah, I never thought he was crazy. But I think he thought he was.

[Happytobehere]

Bobby was not crazy. He suffered from fears of ending up like his mother and years of emotional abuse at the hands of his family, especially the parents who could never truly love and accept him because of what he represented to them through no fault of his own.

I'm glad we got the final season to see Bobby back on the force and in a better place.

[WendyCR72]

Yeah, I mainly put that title because crazy seemed to be a running theme with Bobby more than he was actually WAS. But, yeah, I think his fears of being like his mother drove his dark side. (Schizophrenia is genetic, I believe.) 

But it made for a fascinating character and character history because of it. Vincent D'Onofrio did a great job bringing Bobby Goren to life.

[roseha]

I agree with your post above WendyCR72 (nice to see people moving over here already)!  Of course one of the many damaging things Warren Leight did during his tenure was to write out any mention of Frances Goren's schizophrenia and have her die of cancer.  Like you, I'm glad new showrunners took over and the series ended with Bobby in a better place (yet more authentic to his original character).

[WendyCR72]

<Waves to roseha> Nice "seeing" you here, too!

As for Warren Leight, I have noticed in the credits that he was at L&O: CI in some capacity or other early on (if not head honcho), so his dumbing down of the show and removing the psychological undercurrent is even more unforgivable, to me. Then again, Mr. Leight strikes me as a lowest common denominator type, out for just big events and exaggerated drama (I don't even watch SVU anymore, but I know enough that some villain returning to terrorize Olivia Benson for the 3rd or 4th time is a perfect example!).

Like GHScorpiosRule, I think CI really lost something when Rene Balcer left the show in any real capacity and Leight took the reins. But, as you again point out, roseha, I'm glad a new show runner in Chris Brancato - no Balcer, but eons better than Leight - closed CI out on a somewhat higher note!

[GHScorpiosRule]

Watching, or rather bingewatching all the early seasons, it's a wonder Rene didn't burn out--he wrote or co-wrote practically ALL the episodes the first three seasons, I think. Whenever he was hands on? That was a fucking fantastic season, if'nye ask me. He's my tv male version of Nora Roberts.

[BizBuzz]

To answer the titles question, I think Bobby was an Eccentric Badass with a little Batshit Crazy thrown in, at all the right moments.

 

The head games, that is what made this show so good.  The games he would play with the criminals, and OMG, the headgames that were played on him (especially from Nicole Wallace).

 

It's a fine line to grow up with people that are certifiable (I speak from experience having a brother that recently passed with diagnosed paranoia and schizophrenia), every time you deal with doctors or case workers, believe me your mind takes you places that it shouldn't.  You sometimes get so involved with their sickness, you start to doubt your own sanity. 

 

Ok, so now that you know I am certifiable...

 

::giggle::

[WendyCR72]

As I have said elsewhere in this forum, BizBuzz, it was the psychological component that made this show for me. Well, that, and the Goren/Eames interaction. So I did think Leight made a mistake in watering that down once he became showrunner in S6. It became less about mindfucking the bad guys and more soap (but I still watched - and liked - some later episodes! "Frame" and "Lady's Man" among them!).

 

And one of those mistakes, in my estimation, was - as I said - giving Frances Goren a face. I think her presence alone worked in terms of how Bobby acted and interacted with others. A lot of the mystery and pathos evaporated once she had a true presence.

[BizBuzz]

Totally agree @WendyCR72, I never ever thought about how putting a face to the name kinda dampened things, but you are right.  I remember seeing Rita Moreno for the first time and I am like, she was on Electric Company, how can she be crazy?  ::giggle::

[WendyCR72]

Not to mention Rita Moreno - while a good actress - and Vincent D'Onofrio looked absolutely NOTHING alike. LOL! (And VDO/Tony Goldwyn [Frank] didn't look alike, either.) Roy Scheider maybe had a VERY surface resemblance to VDO, but since I still deny his serial killing character's self was Bobby's father, I tend to discount that altogether.

[GHScorpiosRule]

So, we know that Bobby only had one older brother, Frank, who only had one son. So, where did he acquire this niece that we "meet" in Season 8? The one he was talking to on the phone and at the end we saw a picture of along with a letter? If I'm not mistaken, we see him with this family around Thanksgiving as well.

 

For the past/first seven seasons, we're told that Bobby only has his Ma and junkie brother as his only living family. This just made me hit my head on my hard desk, for all the soap operaish retcon feeling it gave me.

[WendyCR72]

I infer the sister and, thus, the niece, comes from Mark Ford Brady, another offspring he maybe had that wanted zip to do with him. Makes the most sense.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I infer the sister and, thus, the niece, comes from Mark Ford Brady, another offspring he maybe had that wanted zip to do with him. Makes the most sense.

Eh? If they wanted zip to do with him, why'd they have him over for the holidays and visitin' and such? Never mind, ignore me. I'm clearly overthinking this! It's just as whatthefuckery as Mike telling the priest in "Last Rites" that he has no family, when I know damn well and good he's got some nephews and cousins out there! We were told this in the mothership, so there!

[WendyCR72]

Not avoiding Bobby, but Brady. I'm guessing maybe the sister found out about Bobby and was curious, and her family wanted to meet him since he was a half brother, even though perhaps neither wanted to deal with their origins through Brady.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Ohhhhhhhh. Yeah, that would make the most sense.

[BizBuzz]

As has been mandated in the Mothership thread, Goren is now mine.

 

Hey, it's only fair.

 

::giggle::

[WendyCR72]

Um, I did NOT approve this, BizBuzz. Bobby Goren is mine!

 

Or we can compromise and do shifts.

Edited May 9, 2014 by WendyR72

[BizBuzz]

Oh, you thought you had it sown up with encouraging a cat-fight with me and GH, eh?

 

Hmmmm, let me consider this.  I think he is definitely man enough to share...so shifts might just work...

[WendyCR72]

BWAH! But board fights are FUN, BizBuzz!  :-)  Still, yes, shifts with Bobby Goren work. I am willing to share unlike GHScorpiosRule.

 

<Runs from GHSR>

[BizBuzz]

I haven't made my decision.  There just might be a fight yet. 

[WendyCR72]

Ready if you are, BizBuzz!

[GHScorpiosRule]

That's right. I do NOT believe in sharing. I'll just sit back, munch on my kettle corn popcorn and watch.

[WendyCR72]

That's right. I do NOT believe in sharing. I'll just sit back, munch on my kettle corn popcorn and watch.

 

Just for that, I hope the kettle corn is BURNT!  :-P

[BizBuzz]

Off topic a little bit, but it's only us, so who cares. LOL

Look what was in the movies forum, OMG...

Bobby = Thor

http://forums.previously.tv/topic/5769-stupid-movies-we-watch-over-and-over-and-over/#entry76770

[WendyCR72]

ACK! How the hell did I never make that connection? And I've seen "Adventures in Babysitting" more than I care to admit. LOL!

[BizBuzz]

You and me both @WendyCR72 - Even when I was watching the clip, I was looking for Vincent saying, where is he, even when Thor came up, I was like, where is he, and then, I heard the voice, it's there, his voice is there.  He was just a tad, um, thin?  And um, a tad, um, gorgeous?  Even with the long hair?  ::giggle::

[WendyCR72]

Early Bobby was yummy, too. S1 restarts on Ion this evening during the marathon (after the 8 hours of S10!), so I look forward to younger Bobby again. Shallow? Sure. LOL! But hey, older Bobby worked for me, too, BizBuzz.

[cooksdelight]

I've never been able to find anything concrete online, but when Goren and Eames were hopscotching episodes with Chris Noth and whatever partner he had, that D'Onofrio was suffering from mental exhaustion and needed a break? Someone told me that he got so into the character that he had a breakdown.

By the way, to those of you having a catfight, I have a personally autographed photo of Vincent that is framed and sitting on my coffee table where I can gaze into his eyes on a daily basis. Just thought I'd throw that out there. :)

[WendyCR72]

Welcome to the fray, cooksdelight! I saw (on Wiki) that it was said VDO collapsed from exhaustion in S4 and again at home from exhaustion (and it listed a few projects he was involved with at that time which seemed to be attributed to said exhaustion and made sense with the timing since Chris Noth came on in late S4 as a guest - maybe testing the waters?), but I read nothing about mental exhaustion and becoming the character. Either way, we'll never know, right?

 

It could have happened. That was rumored about Vivien Leigh/Scarlett O'Hara, too. But considering he stuck around through S9 and did return in S10...well, if that was the case, I'd think he would have tried to opt out long before he did. Then again, as I said, we'll never know the true dirt there.

 

As for the picture...lucky you!  :-)

Edited May 29, 2014 by WendyR72

[BizBuzz]

Welcome @cooksdelight - may I just say throwing that out there was just wrong on so many levels! ::giggle::

[WendyCR72]

Welcome cooksdelight - may I just say throwing that out there was just wrong on so many levels! ::giggle::

 

Methinks cooksdelight may have an evil streak.  >:-)

[cooksdelight]

If perchance, I ever run into him, I plan to put on my best British accent and say "Hello... Bobby"... my sister said he may put me in handcuffs.

Oh, myyyyy! :)

[WendyCR72]

If perchance, I ever run into him, I plan to put on my best British accent and say "Hello... Bobby"... my sister said he may put me in handcuffs.

Oh, myyyyy! :)

 

While this is kinky and vastly amusing to ponder, the fact that it brings up Nicole Wallace (UGH!) makes me so conflicted! (Glad Declan Gage killed her ass off screen!)

[cooksdelight]

I cannot watch the Nicole episodes. It drives me crazy, watching her pushing Bobby's buttons and making him unhappy. And off his normal even keel.

Declan Gage and his batshit crazy daughter were good TV.

[WendyCR72]

I cannot watch the Nicole episodes. It drives me crazy, watching her pushing Bobby's buttons and making him unhappy. And off his normal even keel.

Declan Gage and his batshit crazy daughter were good TV.

 

 

Exactly! Declan Gage and daughter Jo may have been nucking futs, but as far as I'm concerned, Declan did Bobby a service knocking off Nicole. Frank? Well, while it sucks that Nicole murdered Frank (I think, then Declan killed her?), Declan was twisted but right: Bobby was free then! (But it sucked that it had to come to murder and then being accused by that douchebag, Danny Ross, of killing his own brother because of Bobby's DNA...and Rodgers' flapping her gums to Ross about said DNA!)

Edited May 30, 2014 by WendyR72

[BizBuzz]

Nucking Futs.  Ok, that is very cool @WendyCR72 - stealing that.

 

Every time Nicole showed up, I was like, NOOOOOO, please don't do this to Bobby. 

[cooksdelight]

Exactly! Declan Gage and daughter Jo may have been nucking futs, but as far as I'm concerned, Declan did Bobby a service knocking off Nicole. Frank? Well, while it sucks that Nicole murdered Frank (I think, then Declan killed her?), Declan was twisted but right: Bobby was free then! (But it sucked that it had to come to murder and then being accused by that douchebag, Danny Ross, of killing his own brother because of Bobby's DNA...and Rodgers' flapping her gums to Ross about said DNA!)

Yes, Declan killed Nicole and put her heart in a cooler, delivered it to a bed & breakfast, where Goren and Eames were sent with more cryptic clues. Loved that episode.

I never warmed up to Rodgers. She was a bitch from the beginning, I think. And Ross boinking her just made him all that much more sullied in my eyes.

[photo fox]

Oh, I loved the Nicole episodes! She tortured Bobby and pushed him to a really dark place, but VDO was always so amazing when Bobby was approaching the deep end.

IIRC, wasn't there some kind of online vote at the end of one of Nicole's episodes as to whether she would live or die? And the east coast voted to see one ending, and the west voted for the other? I always thought that had to be really odd for the folks who saw her "die", only to crop up again like nothing ever happened.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I never warmed up to Rodgers. She was a bitch from the beginning, I think. And Ross boinking her just made him all that much more sullied in my eyes.

Oh, I totally disagree about Rodgers being a bitch. She's always been snarky and I've loved her since waaay back when she was on the mothership. Hell, she was doing triple duty--Mothership, SVU and this show, and then double duty, after SVU got Warren.

 

I just thought that she and Ross had gone out a couple of times, but that they never boinked. And she could totally tear incompetent boobs a new one when warranted. Like in "Blasters" I think it was? The one that was a rip off of Saved By the Bell's Screech?

[WendyCR72]

IIRC, wasn't there some kind of online vote at the end of one of Nicole's episodes as to whether she would live or die? And the east coast voted to see one ending, and the west voted for the other? I always thought that had to be really odd for the folks who saw her "die", only to crop up again like nothing ever happened.

 

There was, as I have the DVDs, and the episode (forget which it is now) mentions this in the description. So on the east coast, she died? Awesome. I'm on the east coast. We had brains. Alas, the west coast got the final word. LOL!

 

As an aside, the alternate ending is a bonus on the DVD.

[WendyCR72]

Nucking Futs.  Ok, that is very cool @WendyCR72 - stealing that.

 

Every time Nicole showed up, I was like, NOOOOOO, please don't do this to Bobby. 

Feel free to steal away, BizBuzz! :-) 

[cooksdelight]

 

I just thought that she and Ross had gone out a couple of times, but that they never boinked

 

When he died, she was a basket case. Totally breaking down. To me, it seemed they had more than just a friendship. Just my observation/opinion on the matter. :)

[WendyCR72]

When he died, she was a basket case. Totally breaking down. To me, it seemed they had more than just a friendship. Just my observation/opinion on the matter. :)

 

I would have thought Rodgers would have had better taste.

Edited June 2, 2014 by WendyR72

[millennium]

I loved Nicole Wallace and thought her ill-used by the show in the Declan Gage episode.   Bad enough they killed Nicole, but to do it off-screen, and to reduce her role in that episode to nothing more than a cameo, was unforgivable.

 

She was Goren's Catwoman.    You don't kill Catwoman.

[BigDfromLA]

Robert Goren was one of the most intriguing characters I have ever seen on a TV show. Vincent is an outstanding actor, going all the way back to Full Metal Jacket, obviously. He was also great playing a rogue police detective in "Strange Days".

 

Like Joe Friday on Dragnet, Goren's ENTIRE LIFE is his job. It gives him  everything and other aspects of his life are either disfunctional or non existent. Like Friday, he was a fish out of water in the rare scenes when he was not working. It was a little odd that he never had a romantic encounter, interest or even entertained the thought of a relationship. You talk about having a laser focus on his work. I really enjoyed the scenes in the last season with the therapist. It was a chance to have the tables turned on him, which was fascinating. The greatest joys of Goren's life occurred when he toyed with his perps before doing that final bust to wrap his case. There was absolute glee in his eyes when he was able to screw with the "bad guys". That was his life.