TCM: The Greatest Movie Channel

[3pwood]

I agree that this is a wonderful movie with excellent romantic leads.  But my favorite part is Charles Coburn (which is usually the case whenever he appears).  He was equally effective as a charming curmudgeon with a romantic streak, & as a sinister vindictive monster in King's Row, & everything in between.  Can't miss with him. 

Edited September 30, 2015 by 3pwood

[Milburn Stone]

I agree that this is a wonderful movie with excellent romantic leads.  But my favorite part is Charles Coburn (which is usually the case whenever he appears).  He was equally effective as a charming curmudgeon with a romantic streak, & as a sinister vindictive monster in King's Row, & everything in between.  Can't miss with him. 

 

I know. It's like, you can't take him out of any movie he's in and imagine that it could be anything like that movie with anyone else. As superb as Barbara Stanwyck and Henry Fonda are in The Lady Eve, it simply wouldn't be the movie it is with anyone else in the Coburn part.

 

I just looked him up on imdb. Some facts that surprised me:

 

*For some reason I always thought he died young. That's because he made his last movie in 1960. But it turns out he was already 83 then! (At the time of the Wright Brothers' first flight, he was already 30.)

 

*Always thought he was English. He was from Savannah, GA.

 

*Never really pictured him being especially tall. But he was 6 feet.

 

*After an illustrious stage career, he didn't begin making movies until he was 60.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Milburn Stone

[Milburn Stone]

Ruminating more on Coburn, and your phrase, 3pwood, about "everything in between"...so true, in that he could blend a range of attributes into the same performance. In The Lady Eve, one reason the movie's so good is that Coburn isn't just "comically villainous" in it. He's mainly amusing, of course (in the way only he could be), but there's a streak of genuine malevolence (maybe about 5-10%) in his portrayal. He really wants to destroy our hero. With Stanwyck, we understand her loathing of and wish to punish Fonda is driven by hurt. With Coburn, it's driven by a streak of pure evil! One that doesn't disappear just because his daughter is in love with the guy. Even when Coburn wasn't playing a sadistic small-town surgeon, he could introduce that coloration.

[elle]

Ruminating more on Coburn, and your phrase, 3pwood, about "everything in between"...so true, in that he could blend a range of attributes into the same performance. In The Lady Eve, one reason the movie's so good is that Coburn isn't just "comically villainous" in it. He's mainly amusing, of course (in the way only he could be), but there's a streak of genuine malevolence (maybe about 5-10%) in his portrayal. He really wants to destroy our hero. With Stanwyck, we understand her loathing of and wish to punish Fonda is driven by hurt. With Coburn, it's driven by a streak of pure evil! One that doesn't disappear just because his daughter is in love with the guy. Even when Coburn wasn't playing a sadistic small-town surgeon, he could introduce that coloration.

Add to that, one gets the impression that he genuinely loves his daughter, that she is not just another player in his "gang".  I think it stands out most of all when he is hearing about the wedding, there is a sentimentality there that one wouldn't expect from a heartless con man.  I wouldn't call him "evil", devious, yes, but I think that the reason he wants to destroy Fonda is to get revenge for Jean.  And the money, that's just the cherry on top.

[Milburn Stone]

Add to that, one gets the impression that he genuinely loves his daughter, that she is not just another player in his "gang".  I think it stands out most of all when he is hearing about the wedding, there is a sentimentality there that one wouldn't expect from a heartless con man.  I wouldn't call him "evil", devious, yes, but I think that the reason he wants to destroy Fonda is to get revenge for Jean.  And the money, that's just the cherry on top.

 

That's an interesting POV, that the reason he has it in for Fonda is to avenge his daughter. It doesn't look that way to me, but I admit it's valid. What I see is more along the lines of, "This guy is a chump, and I exist to destroy chumps."

[Julia]

I thought he cared about his daughter, but I also thought he reacted like a butcher whose daughter joined PETA. I think he genuinely regretted that she ended up getting hurt, but what he mostly cared about was her disturbing fit of scruples going away.

[bluepiano]

You know since we are talking about it, in your opinion, what films captured an actress in all of their beauty?

I hope I worded this right. Let me give you an example: I believe that Leslie Caron was photographed at her most beautiful in 1961's Fanny. Vivian Leigh in Waterloo Bridge, etc.

Who are your choices?

 

Is it really lame to comment on a post from months ago? Well, I practically live for TCM, and just now discovered there is forum for it on this site. I've been reading posts going back almost to the start of this forum, and loving all the insightful and informed analysis from my fellow classic movie lovers. What a joy!

 

This topic of which film captured which actress at their most beautiful fired my imagination, so i can't resist joining it, even at this late date. Some very good calls already. "Gilda" is probably the quintessential Rita Hayworth movie, but I agree that she never looked more beautiful than in "Cover Girl," where she positively glows. It's almost heartbreaking to watch how vibrantly beautiful she is in this movie, knowing that her path through life was not going to be easy.

 

Also really liked the call on the sadly forgotten (except for her role in The Munsters) Yvonne DeCarlo in "Criss Cross," one of my 5 or 6 favorite film noirs. I actually think she's more beautiful than Ava Gardner. (Who starred with Lancaster in "The Killers," which is almost a companion movie to "Criss Cross.")

 

Others, in no particular order....Jane Greer in "Out of the Past," Loretta Young in "The Bishop's Wife," Claudette Colbert in "The Palm Beach Story," Joan Leslie in "Sergeant York," Margaret Sullivan in "Shop Around the Corner,"  Evelyn Keyes in "99 River Street," Carole Lombard in "Nothing Sacred," Barbara Stanwyck in "Ball of Fire," Veronica Lake in "I Married a Witch," Claudia Cardinale in "Don't Make Waves," Lee Remick in "Anatomy of a Murder" (even with a black eye).

Edited October 1, 2015 by bluepiano

[Inquisitionist]

Elizabeth Taylor in Cat on a Hot Tin Roof.  When she and Paul Newman were on-screen together, the pretty was almost too much to bear.  Same with Claudia Cardinale and Alain Delon in The Leopard.

 

I have a hard time getting past the hairstyles of the 1930s, which IMO were flattering to virtually no one.

[prican58]

For me they don't come more beautiful than Ingrid Bergman and she never looked more intriguing than in Casablanca, Bells of St Mary's and For Whom the Bell Tolls. The latter role was all the more interesting because of the very short hair and the"bronzed" skin. In Bells, she just beams with saintliness (is that even a word?) with only her gorgeous face showing. And as Ilsa in Casablanca's Paris scenes she is perfect.

 

bluepiano, your observation of DeCarlo is right on the money! While I do see why Ava Gardner was so admired for her beauty she never really jumps out at me although I bet she was a vision in person. Yvonne was gorgeous and I never really realized it till someone mentioned to me a long time ago that she was absolutely gorgeous in The Ten Commandments. As one of my fave films ever I never had noticed her but when I got to see it again I was convinced. Really lovely. Yeah, she is all that in Criss Cross. 

[WendyCR72]

Elizabeth Taylor in Cat on a Hot Tin Roof.  When she and Paul Newman were on-screen together, the pretty was almost too much to bear.

 

Yes! And while the movie is a bastardization of the play and its themes, if I separate it from its source material, it's still a damned sexy, bittersweet tale of a faltering marriage and dysfunctional family ties, and Newman and Taylor made a gorgeous and sizzling couple with not one stitch of clothing removed.

 

Why this is not on Blu-Ray forever mystifies me.

[elle]

That's an interesting POV, that the reason he has it in for Fonda is to avenge his daughter. It doesn't look that way to me, but I admit it's valid. What I see is more along the lines of, "This guy is a chump, and I exist to destroy chumps."

Oh Ford was a chump's chump!  And I can see how the Colonel would be upset about losing such a great mark.  One of the scenes that make me lean towards his affection for his daughter is in the bedroom scene the morning after she has realized that she's in love with the chump and asks her father to tell her fortune.

 

Elizabeth Taylor in Cat on a Hot Tin Roof.  When she and Paul Newman were on-screen together, the pretty was almost too much to bear.  Same with Claudia Cardinale and Alain Delon in The Leopard.

 

I have a hard time getting past the hairstyles of the 1930s, which IMO were flattering to virtually no one.

MMV!  I love the hairstyles of the 30s, the short wavy bob - Harlow, Rogers, Shearer, Roz Russell!  I also think that Joan Crawford never looked better than that time of movies.

 

bluepiano, your observation of DeCarlo is right on the money! While I do see why Ava Gardner was so admired for her beauty she never really jumps out at me although I bet she was a vision in person. Yvonne was gorgeous and I never really realized it till someone mentioned to me a long time ago that she was absolutely gorgeous in The Ten Commandments. As one of my fave films ever I never had noticed her but when I got to see it again I was convinced. Really lovely. Yeah, she is all that in Criss Cross. 

Ava Gardner - Mogambo, and later The Bible: In the Beginning

 

Yvonne deCarlo was beautiful in The Ten Commandments.  I think of her and Carolyn Jones in the same light, how they were both overshadowed by their TV roles, and they were both beautiful in those roles.  What a treat for us all these movies waiting for us to see how beautiful they are.

Edited October 3, 2015 by elle

[ennui]

Halloween, and the best time of year for classic horror movies ... tonight is The House on Haunted Hill, with Vincent Price. I love Vincent Price. He was such a gentleman, and had such a gentle sense of humor about himself (does anyone else remember his bug zapper commercial?).

[prican58]

elle, what's interesting is that both Jones and DeCarlo really loved doing those now iconic roles on tv. They didn't look down on them as being an "oh how the mighty have fallen" situation. I think one of them may have said that more people saw the tv role than any other movie they may have made.  Jones was a real good one. 

 

Yeah, Mogambo and The Bible. Ava was gorgeous but really, she just doesn't move me. Actresses have to really touch something in me, they have to move me with something other than sheer beauty. Ava doesn't strike that chord. YM *obviously* V. 

[Missmissie173]

Hi Y'all!

I never delved into the "other genre topics" at PTV until recently.  Imagine my delight to find this wonderful thread devoted to TCM and to visit with other film buffs that know about vintage Hollywood - I call that a double/double! (All though, in all honesty, I do admit to some sort of weird fascination with the RHONY, but who knows when they will be back so...)

 

Just because the RH season is over, I didn't want to leave the witty and intelligent posters that this site seems to draw, so here i am and I hope to have film chats galore!

 

May I join the convo regarding most beautiful and in which role that bluepiano has brought back to the table? Hope that is okay so away we go:

 

Agree with all on Elizabeth Taylor as Maggie the Cat - OMG even cleaning ice cream off her nylon she was special...don't make em like her anymore.

Maureen O'Hara - The Quite Man,  John Wayne slamming through the door and grabbing Maureen - sex magic and rock and roll.

Jennifer Jones - Ruby Gentry. In the swamp with Chas Heston she glows.

Natalie Wood - Splendor In The Grass. One of the most beautiful scenes at the end of the movie - I cry every time.

Olivia De Haviland - any movie with Flynn.

Barbara Streisand - The Way We Were. Brushing Hubble's hair from his face - beautiful.

Just one more for now -

Doris Day - The Thrill of It All, The perfect All American Girl.

 

Thanks for playing along - glad I found y'all!

[elle]

elle, what's interesting is that both Jones and DeCarlo really loved doing those now iconic roles on tv. They didn't look down on them as being an "oh how the mighty have fallen" situation. I think one of them may have said that more people saw the tv role than any other movie they may have made.  Jones was a real good one. 

 

Yeah, Mogambo and The Bible. Ava was gorgeous but really, she just doesn't move me. Actresses have to really touch something in me, they have to move me with something other than sheer beauty. Ava doesn't strike that chord. YM *obviously* V. 

Oh I knew that about the lovely ladies of monster TV :0)  I think that is what made the shows so good.  It is still fun to remember the first time I recognized Carolyn Jones (The Opposite Sex), definitely an "Hey!" moment.

 

What you say about your opinion about Ava is true for most actors, that there has to be something else there than just good looks.  It took me a long time to warm up to Jean Harlow to see what everyone thought was so great about her acting.

[ratgirlagogo]

My  great female role models as a little ratgirl were Morticia Addams, Honey West, Sheena Queen of the Jungle, and Emma Peel.  And yes I do remember how I felt recognizing them in other roles  - Diana Rigg not so much since Mrs. Peel is the role that made her famous and her other roles came later, and I never recognized Irish McCalla in anything but Sheena until I was much, much older.  But oh yes, Anne Francis in Forbidden Planet and for me, Carolyn Jones in King Creole.  The way she spat out at Walter Matthau "every time you touch me it makes my SKIN CRAWL!"

 

It was a little shocking for me since of course my attraction to all these characters was how powerful and self-possessed they were.  So when I saw the actresses playing "normal" female characters it was hard not to see them as diminished somehow.

 

ETA:

 

ennui:Halloween, and the best time of year

Isn't it though.

Edited October 3, 2015 by ratgirlagogo

[bluepiano]

Really lovely. Yeah, she is all that in Criss Cross. 

 

The scene in the bar which Burt stands in the doorway watching Yvonne dance is a mini-masterpiece.  She is so sexy, and the cutting between his facial expressions and hers, and the musicians in the Latin band, is breathtaking. Not to get on my soap box, but it's the kind of movie making that doesn't even exist anymore. I'd take that one scene over the entire output of some of today's big name directors.

 

(And for an added coolness bonus, the anoynomous extra Yvonne is dancing with is none other than Tony Curtis. Who would have thought at the time that not many years later Curtis would be as big a star as Lancaster and they would team together in one of the best films either of them ever made, "The Sweet Smell of Success.")

 

 

Yvonne deCarlo was beautiful in The Ten Commandments.  I think of her and Carolyn Jones in the same light, how they were both overshadowed by their TV roles, and they were both beautiful in those roles.

 

Elle, "nice catch." Jones was a highly original actress who could play offbeat characters in way that seemed very real. Maybe too real for Hollywood, which didn't quite know what to do with her. When paired with more conventional actors she could almost seem to be acting in a different movie. I'm thinking of "A Hole in the Dead" and "Kid Creole" with Elvis.

 

(To Elvis' credit, he responded with a pretty good performance. It was in that early period when it seemed that he might become a real actor, before the Colonel took over.)

Edited October 3, 2015 by bluepiano

[ratgirlagogo]

 

Jones was a highly original actress who could play offbeat characters in way that seemed very real. Maybe too real for Hollywood, which didn't quite know what to do with her. When paired with conventional actors she could almost seem to be acting in a different movie. I'm thinking of "A Hole in the Dead" and "Kid Creole" with Elvis.

Ha!  Funny we both thought of King Creole, although in different ways I think.  I agree that she WAS a highly original actress and I have thought for years that it was that original, offbeat quality that made Morticia appealing.  She (the character of Morticia I mean)  is deeply odd but always genuinely gracious.  And very beautiful of course. And of course  many before me have pointed out that Morticia and Gomez rival Nick and Nora in terms of presenting a married couple who are believably nuts about each other.

[Milburn Stone]

Caught a fair amount of House on Haunted Hill last night. WTF is it with William Castle? Even though his movies are cheap, with production values that are just good enough, there's something horribly sick and twisted at their very cores that makes them compelling. You can't watch them without your subconscious confronting the nightmarishness of existence itself! Or is just me?

[elle]

The scene in the bar which Burt stands in the doorway watching Yvonne dance is a mini-masterpiece.  She is so sexy, and the cutting between his facial expressions and hers, and the musicians in the Latin band, is breathtaking. Not to get on my soap box, but it's the kind of movie making that doesn't even exist anymore. I'd take that one scene over the entire output of some of today's big name directors.

 

(And for an added coolness bonus, the anoynomous extra Yvonne is dancing with is none other than Tony Curtis. Who would have thought at the time that not many years later Curtis would be as big a star as Lancaster and they would team together in one of the best films either of them ever made, "The Sweet Smell of Success.")

 

Your post made me remember, and slap my forehead for not thinking of it before, that the one movie that Yvonne De Carlo was in which is a favorite of mine, is as one of Alec Guiness' wives in The Captain's Paradise.  They have a great dance scene together, of course Yvonne is great; it is Alec that is surprising!

 

 Hey, did you know she was Canadian?

 

Ha!  Funny we both thought of King Creole, although in different ways I think.  I agree that she WAS a highly original actress and I have thought for years that it was that original, offbeat quality that made Morticia appealing.  She (the character of Morticia I mean)  is deeply odd but always genuinely gracious.  And very beautiful of course. And of course  many before me have pointed out that Morticia and Gomez rival Nick and Nora in terms of presenting a married couple who are believably nuts about each other.

I had not heard of that comparison before, but it rings true!  How funny imagining the two meeting, Nick would just take all the weirdness in stride as would Gomez. The ladies of course would be beautiful and gracious.  :0)

[bluepiano]

Now I am imagining a remake of "The Thin Man" (or others in the series) with Gomez and Morticia in the Nick-Nora roles. I can definitely see them solving crimes together. (And drinking copious quantities of martinis).

Edited October 3, 2015 by bluepiano

[Rinaldo]

 Hey, did you know [Yvonne De Carlo] was Canadian?

I did! Largely because, as a devotee of the 1971 Sondheim musical Follies, I happened to notice from a perusal of my souvenir program that all three of its leading ladies were Canadian-born: Yvonne De Carlo, Dorothy Collins, and Alexis Smith.

 

Here's a general discussion question inspired by our sharing of "movies in which an actress best projected her beauty":

 

If someone you knew delivered one of those put-downs we've all heard at times, "I just don't get Actor/Actress X; why was s/he ever a star, anyway?", what is the one title you'd suggest the person watch? So it would be something that showed the star at his/her most characteristic, but also most irresistible. I suppose in many cases these will be "obvious" titles, but probably not always.

 

I would have no hesitation choosing Casablanca for both Bogart and Bergman. Audrey Hepburn: Sabrina. Barbra Streisand: Hello, Dolly! I'll stop there for now. Others?

[elle]

I'll play!

 

Audrey Hepburn - A Nun's Story - one sees so many facets of her character (both the part and her)

 

Barbara Stanwyck - The Lady Eve

 

Jean Harlow - Hold Your Man - this is the one that made me take another look at her career, I love the chemistry between Harlow and Gable

[ratgirlagogo]

 

Your post made me remember, and slap my forehead for not thinking of it before, that the one movie that Yvonne De Carlo was in which is a favorite of mine, is as one of Alec Guiness' wives in The Captain's Paradise.

Yes, she's a knockout in that and I have my mother to thank for turning me on to it.  Such a great comedy and it became even funnier to me once I actually saw Brief Encounter (another of Mom's favorites BTW) since much of the comedy in CP turns on us having a very specific idea of Celia Johnson.

 

WTF is it with William Castle?

WTF indeed.  This is another time that TCM has enlarged my horizons around someone.  Castle is someone that was SO entrenched in my mind as the Gimmick King of 50's and 60's drive-in movies that I didn't realize what a solid background he had in directing B-progammers like The Whistler and The Crime Doctor, etc. etc. until I saw them on TCM.   He did actually know how to put a concise thriller together years before he ever came up with his genius gimmick ideas.

[Julia]

I would have voted for What's Up Doc for Barbra Streisand. I thought she was adorable, and she fit really neatly into classic slapstick.

 

I think Idiot's Delight is underrated, and that Norma Shearer just glowed when she was given the opportunity to poke at her grande dame person and have a little fun.   

[Milburn Stone]

WTF indeed.  This is another time that TCM has enlarged my horizons around someone.  Castle is someone that was SO entrenched in my mind as the Gimmick King of 50's and 60's drive-in movies that I didn't realize what a solid background he had in directing B-progammers like The Whistler and The Crime Doctor, etc. etc. until I saw them on TCM.   He did actually know how to put a concise thriller together years before he ever came up with his genius gimmick ideas.

 

A thousand times yes! Strip away all the gimmicks (which of course are utterly meaningless when watching the films on television today anyway), and the films of William Castle have a truly disturbing creepiness about them that clings to them like a shroud. What's more, hard as it is to put your finger on what he's doing, it's an identifiably "Castle-esque" creepiness, unique to his films and arching over his whole body of work, making him as much an auteur as any director who ever lived. Maybe it's in how utterly rational they turn out to be, with the rationality becoming more horrifying than the surface spookiness. You finish a William Castle film saying, "You know what? All kidding aside, people are really effed up!" And the feeling doesn't go away after five minutes.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Milburn Stone

[Charlie Baker]

120th anniversary of Buster Keaton's birth today.  

[elle]

I would have voted for What's Up Doc for Barbra Streisand. I thought she was adorable, and she fit really neatly into classic slapstick.

 

I think Idiot's Delight is underrated, and that Norma Shearer just glowed when she was given the opportunity to poke at her grande dame person and have a little fun.   

I agree with you about What's Up Doc for Streisand.  Besides being a fun movie, it gives her a chance to show her acting and comedic talents.  It is too bad no one knew how to write movies like that after that one.

 

Idiot's Delight also has the benefit of showing a dancing Clark Gable :0)

[prican58]

Changing direction only because I just watched The Killers (Lancaster/Gardner) and I noticed the role of Charleston, Swede's cellmate in prison was played by Vince Barnett who played Paul Muni's illiterate secretary in Scarface. I'm watching him and something tells me I had seen him before. Thanks imdb.

 

Also I am always happy to see Sam Levene in anything.

[Bastet]

Also I am always happy to see Sam Levene in anything.

 

I am, too, but he'll always be Lt. Abrams (from two Thin Man films) to me.

 

WTF indeed.  This is another time that TCM has enlarged my horizons around someone.  Castle is someone that was SO entrenched in my mind as the Gimmick King of 50's and 60's drive-in movies that I didn't realize what a solid background he had in directing B-progammers like The Whistler and The Crime Doctor, etc. etc. until I saw them on TCM.   He did actually know how to put a concise thriller together years before he ever came up with his genius gimmick ideas.

 

I feel the exact same way!

[Julia]

Also I am always happy to see Sam Levene in anything.

I am, too, but he'll always be Lt. Abrams (from two Thin Man films) to me.

 

I'm very, very sorry that there doesn't seem to be any filmed version of his Nathan Detroit. I would really like to have seen that.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Julia

[bluepiano]

Audrey Hepburn - A Nun's Story - one sees so many facets of her character (both the part and her)

 

Maybe I need to see "A Nun's Story," because I've never understood the almost universal adoration for Audrey Hepburn. I admit that the whole "elfin-gamin" charm thing eludes me, but I also hear people calling her a great actress, and I don't see it. If you've watched Wendy Hiller's amazingly funny, deep, and heartbreaking performance in "Pygmalion," then Audrey's Eliza in "My Fair Lady" seems almost like amateur theatrics in comparison. (Sorry Audrey lovers. Please don't hate me).

 

 "I just don't get Actor/Actress X; why was s/he ever a star, anyway?", what is the one title you'd suggest the person watch? Bogart and Bergman. Audrey Hepburn: Sabrina. Barbra Streisand: Hello, Dolly! I'll stop there for now. Others?

 

Marilyn Monroe in "Bus Stop," where you can see that had she not become such a cultural icon she could've developed into a fine comedic actress. In a similar vein, Jayne Mansfield in "The Burglar," I believe her one "straight role," in which she's so good that I watched for about 20 minutes before even realizing who it was. (An obscure movie, but very worth seeing the next time it crops up on TCM.)

 

And though this may not be quite the same thing, I love the young Bette Davis in "The Petrified Forest." People who only know her from her later roles, which often seem to have an element of self-parody, might be surprised by how fresh and appealing she is.

Edited October 4, 2015 by bluepiano

[roseha]

If someone you knew delivered one of those put-downs we've all heard at times, "I just don't get Actor/Actress X; why was s/he ever a star anyway?", what is the one title you'd suggest the person watch? So it would be something that showed the star at his/her most characteristic, but also most irresistible. I suppose in many cases these will be "obvious" titles, but probably not always.

 

I would have no hesitation choosing Casablanca for both Bogart and Bergman. Audrey Hepburn: Sabrina. Barbra Streisand: Hello, Dolly! I'll stop there for now. Others?

 

 

 

For Bogart, and for that matter also Lauren Bacall, I'd personally recommend The Big Sleep. It's mysterious, strange, intelligent, funny, and the relationship between Bogart and Bacall is so utterly romantic. 

Since it's Buster Keaton's birthday, I should select one feature of his to introduce people to  his amazing brilliance.  I might suggest Sherlock, Jr. (by the way, the pool table scene where he keeps avoiding the "exploding ball" was not faked) but my personal favorite is Steamboat Bill, Jr., which ends with an apocalyptic hurricane/flood sequence featuring mostly Buster alone which has to be seen to be believed.  Not that I recommend letting a house front fall down around you!

[ratgirlagogo]

I don't think I could pick a favorite Keaton but I would agree with your choice of Sherlock Jr. as the best introduction to his work.  The General is wonderful but requires the audience to root for the South in the Civil War, which -  no.

[prican58]

Which is the Keaton film where he and his new bride try to build a new house? That is so supremely clever and fun to watch. I love Keaton's face.

 

Julia, I can so see Levene as Nathan Detroit. I'm not sure that I knew he played it. Love him even more!

 

bluepiano, I get what you say about Audrey. I happen to be a fan and I do think she was a good actress, but not sure about great. That being said, I love her and Cary Grant in "Charade" which was on last week. She is utterly adorable in it and she and Cary have great chem. It is a great movie all around with a fab supporting cast. Of course I don't think Audrey herself would call herself a great actress; certainly not great like Hiller was. But she was a Movie Star. She had "it".

 

I happen to think Marilyn was a good actress. She proved it many times. Bus Stop, Niagra, How to Marry a Millionaire to name 3.  I like her more and more as the years go by.

 

For Bogart, and for that matter also Lauren Bacall, I'd personally recommend The Big Sleep. It's mysterious, strange, intelligent, funny, and the relationship between Bogart and Bacall is so utterly romantic.

 

roseha, I could not agree more. Such a mess of a movie with regard to plot but who cares when the performances are so stellar. B & B are perfection in this.

[elle]

Also I am always happy to see Sam Levene in anything.

Add me to the Sam Levene fan club!

 

Maybe I need to see "A Nun's Story," because I've never understood the almost universal adoration for Audrey Hepburn. I admit that the whole "elfin-gamin" charm thing eludes me, but I also hear people calling her a great actress, and I don't see it. If you've watched Wendy Hiller's amazingly funny, deep, and heartbreaking performance in "Pygmalion," then Audrey's Eliza in "My Fair Lady" seems almost like amateur theatrics in comparison. (Sorry Audrey lovers. Please don't hate me).

 

 

Marilyn Monroe in "Bus Stop," where you can see that had she not become such a cultural icon she could've developed into a fine comedic actress. In a similar vein, Jayne Mansfield in "The Burglar," I believe her one "straight role," in which she's so good that I watched for about 20 minutes before even realizing who it was. (An obscure movie, but very worth seeing the next time it crops up on TCM.)

 

And though this may not be quite the same thing, I love the young Bette Davis in "The Petrified Forest." People who only know her from her later roles, which often seem to have an element of self-parody, might be surprised by how fresh and appealing she is.

I hope you give Nun's Story a chance.  It is an interesting movie in and of itself.  Audrey is not the typical gamine in this role.

 

I agree with you about Bus Stop.  If there were any role for which she should have been recognized, it was that one.  I also love her in How to Marry a Millionarie, that one she really gets to show off her comedic skills and timing.

 

As to your last comment, you could replace "Bette Davis/movie" with "Joan Crawford/movie" and it would have the same meaning.  Sad how they both became parodies of themselves.

[ratgirlagogo]

For Marilyn I have to go with Gentlemen Prefer Blondes.  As I've said before I consider it THE great female buddy picture (and because of that in obvious ways it's more Jane Russell's picture than Marilyn's) and it's a huge favorite of mine.  What Marilyn brings to the role of Lorelei is vulnerability - a quality that Lorelei does NOT have in the book, or, I suspect, in earlier versions of the play.  It's just killing the way all these guys are willing to do ANYTHING for her - except inconvenience themselves, even if it means her going to prison.  Lorelei is both shrewdly aware of her power and naively unaware of its limitations and having seen Marilyn in this part I can't imagine another actress being able to do it in such a comic but emotionally wrenching way.

Edited October 5, 2015 by ratgirlagogo

[roseha]

Which is the Keaton film where he and his new bride try to build a new house? That is so supremely clever and fun to watch. I love Keaton's face.

 

That's one of Buster's very first shorts, One Week.  He had a charming rapport with Sybil Seely, his leading lady that film and several of his other shorts.  (She married screenwriter Jules Furthman in 1920.)

[Julia]

I don't think I could pick a favorite Keaton but I would agree with your choice of Sherlock Jr. as the best introduction is to his work.  The General is wonderful but requires the audience to root for the South in the Civil War, which -  no.

 

Which is sad, really, because except for what it's romanticizing, The General is a brilliant movie. But there's no way around that for me.

Julia, I can so see Levene as Nathan Detroit. I'm not sure that I knew he played it. Love him even more!

He didn't just play it, he created it. He was Nathan to Robert Alda's Skye Masterson (which I just this minute noticed is kind of on the nose for the name of the guy a mission doll has been waiting for all her life).

[Rinaldo]

Maybe I need to see "A Nun's Story," because I've never understood the almost universal adoration for Audrey Hepburn. I admit that the whole "elfin-gamin" charm thing eludes me, but I also hear people calling her a great actress, and I don't see it. If you've watched Wendy Hiller's amazingly funny, deep, and heartbreaking performance in "Pygmalion," then Audrey's Eliza in "My Fair Lady" seems almost like amateur theatrics in comparison. (Sorry Audrey lovers. Please don't hate me).

I would never defend Audrey Hepburn on the basis of My Fair Lady; not good casting for her at that stage (and age), and she wasn't exceptional in any way (except wearing the Cecil Beaton clothes well -- including all the extras' costumes, see the photos in Beaton's book about the movie). And if her brand of charm doesn't appeal to you, maybe she's not for you. 

 

But ​The Nun's Story is certainly worth a look, in case you find she offers something extra there. Pauline Kael was apt to insist (rightly, IMO) that we don't need to falsify our liking for certain movie stars by claiming that they're "great actors" (Sophia Loren was another of her examples): being charming and appealing and good company at the movies is justification enough. But on more than one occasion she complained of producers and directors using the older Audrey almost mechanically for her audience rapport without writing her a good character, and she would add "What about Audrey Hepburn the great actress -- the one who gave a magnificent performance in The Nun's Story?" So, worth a try. I actually like her best in Charade and Two for the Road.

I can so see Levene as Nathan Detroit. I'm not sure that I knew he played it. Love him even more!

As noted, Levene was the first to play the role. It's written the way it is because of him -- almost no singing because he had trouble with singing and his songs had to be cut out or assigned to others. He was to have had a duet with Sky (a jazz waltz called "Traveling Light") which was beyond him and was cut. He was to have been the one who did "Sit Down, You're Rocking the Boat" (doesn't it seem odd that suddenly Nicely-Nicely is this central crucial character for 10 minutes?), but he couldn't sing it and it was reassigned to Stubby Kaye. And in "Sue Me," which they needed to keep for plot reasons, they had to add the little scales up into the start of each refrain ("Find a lawyer and sue me...") so he could find his way to the note.

[Milburn Stone]

Levene...was to have been the one who did "Sit Down, You're Rocking the Boat" (doesn't it seem odd that suddenly Nicely-Nicely is this central crucial character for 10 minutes?), but he couldn't sing it and it was reassigned to Stubby Kaye.

 

I never knew this, but it makes sense musically as well as dramatically. By that I mean that Loesser was great not just at writing words to portray character, but at writing music to portray character, and I can absolutely "hear" the character who sang "Sue Me" also singing the notes of the introductory verses of "Rocking the Boat." (The high notes especially, on "brought my dice along" and "washed me overboard," etc.) And "I hollered someone save me!" would have been an amusing counterpoint in the audience's memory to the same character singing "sue me!" From now on when I hear the song I'll imagine Levene/Detroit singing it, and will revel in the deliciousness.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Milburn Stone

[elle]

quote]Levene...was to have been the one who did "Sit Down, You're Rocking the Boat" (doesn't it seem odd that suddenly Nicely-Nicely is this central crucial character for 10 minutes?), but he couldn't sing it and it was reassigned to Stubby Kaye.

I never knew this, but it makes sense musically as well as dramatically. By that I mean that Loesser was great not just at writing words to portray character, but at writing music to portray character, and I can absolutely "hear" the character who sang "Sue Me" also singing the notes of the introductory verses of "Rocking the Boat." (The high notes especially, on "brought my dice along" and "washed me overboard," etc.) And "I hollered someone save me!" would have been an amusing counterpoint in the audience's memory to the same character singing "sue me!" From now on when I hear the song I'll imagine Levene/Detroit singing it, and will revel in the deliciousness.

To me it would be odd for Detroit to be singing that particular song, since he doesn't seem to be reformed, really, whereas Nicely Nicely does seem to have an epiphany.  I also can't see anyone else other than Stubby Kaye singing that song.

[bluepiano]

As to your last comment, you could replace "Bette Davis/movie" with "Joan Crawford/movie" and it would have the same meaning.  Sad how they both became parodies of themselves.

 

Elle, yes to this. Thanks to TCM, I've been able to some early Joan Crawford movies, like "Dancing Lady" and "Forsaking All Others," and it really changed the way I think of her. I always respected her as an actress (she was obviously great in "Mildred Pierce" among others), but seeing the likeable, vulnerable young Joan was a real eye opener. And as Ann Blythe said in her TCM tribute clip to Joan, you forget how pretty she was.

 

 

I get what you say about Audrey. I happen to be a fan and I do think she was a good actress, but not sure about great. That being said, I love her and Cary Grant in "Charade" which was on last week. She is utterly adorable in it and she and Cary have great chem.

 

I love "Charade" also, mostly for Cary, my favorite actor, but Audrey is very good in it, and I love how she delivers the line, "you know what's wrong with you? Nothing." So I am not totally anti-Audrey, she has had her moments. I'm just not enamored of her. And I'm glad to read that even some Audrey fans agree that "My Fair Lady" was not her finest hour.

 

Regarding "Guys and Dolls," that could be the starting point for a discussion of what movie versions of musicals had the most inappropriate or unfortunate casting.

Edited October 5, 2015 by bluepiano

[mariah23]

Elle, yes to this. Thanks to TCM, I've been able to some early Joan Crawford movies, like "Dancing Lady" and "Forsaking All Others," and it really changed the way I think of her. I always respected her as an actress (she was obviously great in "Mildred Pierce" among others), but seeing the likeable, vulnerable young Joan was a real eye opener. And as Ann Blythe said in her TCM tribute clip to Joan, you forget how pretty she was.

I love "Charade" also, mostly for Cary, my favorite actor, but Audrey is very good in it, and I love how she delivers the line, "you know what's wrong with you? Nothing." So I am not totally anti-Audrey, she has had her moments. I'm just not enamored of her. And I'm glad to read that even some Audrey fans agree that "My Fair Lady" was not her finest hour.

Regarding "Guys and Dolls," that could be the starting point for a discussion of what movie versions of musicals had the most inappropriate or unfortunate casting.

I bet a ton of mouths dropped when they found out that Brando was going to be in a musical after winning the Oscar for On the Waterfront.

I imagine the conversation would go like this: " Marlon Brando, you've just won an Oscar, what are you going to do now?" "I'm going to sing and dance in Guys and Dolls!"

WHAT?!!!!

[Milburn Stone]

To me it would be odd for Detroit to be singing that particular song, since he doesn't seem to be reformed, really, whereas Nicely Nicely does seem to have an epiphany.  I also can't see anyone else other than Stubby Kaye singing that song.

 

I think the thing that would have signalled he'd reformed would be the song itself.

 

There's a very analogous moment at the end of Loesser's How to Succeed. In fact, you can almost say that in "Brotherhood of Man" he's stealing from himself--if both spiritual/gospel-esque songs weren't so very good in their own ways. In HtS, I don't believe there's any reason prior to the song to believe that any of the venal, backstabbing executives have reformed. It's the power of the song itself that makes them reform. I think it would have worked that way for Nathan Detroit.

[Rinaldo]

I think the thing that would have signaled [Nathan had] reformed would be the song itself.

Exactly. Not just the song was transferred to a different character; so was dialogue surrounding it. As the show ended up, Nathan never gets a big solo moment in song; this would've been it. And it would be forever associated with Nathan and Sam Levene.

 

I'm sometimes a little surprised that when, as part of the general miscasting of the movie version, Frank Sinatra was cast in the basically nonsinging role of Nathan, nobody tried to right the balance by restoring this song to his character. But then I regain my senses and remember that they had also cast Stubby Kaye in the movie, and the song was by now associated with him (I saw him do it on TV often in my youth, before I knew the song was "from" anything). At least they let Sinatra participate in the title song, which seems fair enough.

There's a very analogous moment at the end of Loesser's How to Succeed. In fact, you can almost say that in "Brotherhood of Man" he's stealing from himself--if both spiritual/gospel-esque songs weren't so very good in their own ways. In HtS, I don't believe there's any reason prior to the song to believe that any of the venal, backstabbing executives have reformed. It's the power of the song itself that makes them reform. 

 

 

That's kind of neat -- I've never thought of that parallel before. One difference, as I see it, is that in How to Succeed, it's possible to take that whole "reform" cynically (as I do, in fact), as another one of Finch's con jobs on everyone else. There's a certain amount of suspense early on, as to whether the others are going to fall for it, but as soon as Wally Womper speaks up, they're all in. And some of the lyrics, like "giving your brother all you can," are deliberately ambiguous, it seems to me.

[bluepiano]

I'd believe that the Guys and Dolls gamblers would reform their ways before I'd believe that any of those backstabbing execs in "How to Succeed" would have a spiritual awakening.

 

One of the things I like about "How to Succeed" is that it retains it cynicism right up until the end. Finch, under the influence of Rosemary, confesses and hands in his resignation. But the second he's presented with an angle he can use (Wally had also been a window washer) he gleefully tears up his resignation and is back to his old tricks. By comparison, at the end of "The Music Man," I'm always left thinking "Harold Hill is really going to marry Marion and settle down in River City? Really??"

Edited October 5, 2015 by bluepiano

[Rinaldo]

at the end of "The Music Man," I'm always left thinking "Harold Hill is really going to marry Marion and settle down in River City? Really??"

I find myself able to believe it easily, BECAUSE his whole scheme is so pointless and impossible, he must have been angling for an excuse to settle down all along. I'm tempted to go all Comic Book Guy and moan "Worst. Con. Ever!"

 

I mean, look at it. To work it, he has to stay in town for weeks (granted, he'll presumably run up a bill at the hotel and skip out on it in the end, but that's about his only benefit). The townspeople are actually getting the instruments and uniforms they paid for, which means that Harold had to pay the suppliers for them (if he stiffed them, he could only work the con once, and we know he's done it repeatedly); presumably he takes a markup, but even so, he's making the same profit an honest music teacher would. It's true he promised the townspeople lessons that they don't get, but they haven't paid for them yet either, have they? So he is essentially sacrificing a couple of months making an ordinary businessman's profit, and the townsfolk are getting what they paid for. Where's the scam?

 

All of that, of course, is the discovery of someone who loves the show so much, he's thought about it way too much. And I love it still; it's one of my all-time favorites, as I've said here so often before. But it's odd that this aspect of it never attracts any attention.

[ratgirlagogo]

 

 

I bet a ton of mouths dropped when they found out that Brando was going to be in a musical after winning the Oscar for On the Waterfront.

I imagine the conversation would go like this: " Marlon Brando, you've just won an Oscar, what are you going to do now?" "I'm going to sing and dance in Guys and Dolls!"

WHAT?!!!!

Even more tons of mouths dropped once they saw and heard Marlon Brando "singing" and "dancing" in Guys and Dolls.  One of the worst miscastings ever.  Grrr.

[roseha]

Even more tons of mouths dropped once they saw and heard Marlon Brando "singing" and "dancing" in Guys and Dolls.  One of the worst miscastings ever.  Grrr.

 

Totally, and I totally don't understand not giving the role of Sky Masterson to Sinatra, who was right there and could have sung it magnificently.  Worst casting ever.  I've also long thought that Doris Day would have made a great Sarah Brown, and obviously could have sung the role beautifully as well.

Edited October 6, 2015 by roseha