Spencer Reid: Gorgeous Gray Matter

[JenJenBosco]

@Danielg342

I understand what you're saying with him being 'that character' that they can get away with beating up on because he has female traits, but is a male.  Which is definitely not fair to him or any other character.  He shouldn't be victimized just because they can get away with it.  

I completely agree and love your analysis of the writers, and the differences between the Reids in those episodes.  I think that's part of the issue with his character always getting beaten up.  We need to see him come out on top against the unsubs or bad guys that are causing his pain, but lately he doesn't seem to come out on top like he did against Hankel.  I wonder when that change was made.  I'd love to see the pain if there was follow through, but generally there isn't much follow through.  

I definitely think there should be fleeting happiness along the way to make it seem more even in the writing, and do feel he's been failed by the writers, as well.  Poor Spencer.

[JMO]

I don't know, Danielg.  I'm pretty sure we've seen males struggling with repeated tragedies since a story was written about a guy named 'Job'.  And there's a host of material in traditional romance literature.  

I can't agree with you that we haven't seen Reid overcome his obstacles.  I think he did so with Hankel, and he did so with the prison arc .  I think he was at his most helpless with Maeve.  

Maybe I missed the gist of your post, because I don't really understand the whole masculine/feminine thing.  But I think that distilling Spencer Reid down to a feminine foil is to miss the essence of the character.  

[Danielg342]

19 minutes ago, JMO said:

I don't know, Danielg.  I'm pretty sure we've seen males struggling with repeated tragedies since a story was written about a guy named 'Job'.  And there's a host of material in traditional romance literature.  

I can't agree with you that we haven't seen Reid overcome his obstacles.  I think he did so with Hankel, and he did so with the prison arc .  I think he was at his most helpless with Maeve.  

Maybe I missed the gist of your post, because I don't really understand the whole masculine/feminine thing.  But I think that distilling Spencer Reid down to a feminine foil is to miss the essence of the character.  

I realize I spoke with a lot of generalities, and I have to be careful not to turn this into a gender-based discussion since it's beyond the scope of this thread.

Anyway, though I understand exceptions exist, the gist of gender roles within Western storytelling is that generally men are active while women are passive, in that men will actually be seen in the story doing things and affecting the plot while for women the plot generally affects them.

The only time you'll really see exceptions is if a woman is battling another woman- if men and women are prominent characters within the story, the only characters who do things and affect the trajectory of the story will be men while the women in the story are simply there to absorb whatever the plot throws at them.

As this relates to Reid, what I see- especially since S7- is a character who does little except have the plot come to him. Even during the prison arc, he didn't do anything to save himself- he only got out because Garcia found partial prints and Prentiss presented it as proof that Reid couldn't have committed the crime. The rest of the time Reid was only there to get bludgeoned and threatened by his stronger male prisonmates, and perhaps even raped if Calvin Shaw's heteroflexible "joke" is to be believed.

It's a stark contrast to Reid providing Hotch the pivotal clue that allows the BAU to rescue him from Hankel.

Yeah, Reid bested a woman in "Red Light"...but it was the BAU doing the legwork to rescue his mother, and it's telling that the only storyline where Reid actually gets to affect the plot it comes when his antagonist is a woman.

I also think you have to look at the Reid-Cat fight from another perspective- irrespective of his ability to do so, could you ever imagine the show allowing Morgan or Rossi taking on Cat and eventually getting so angry that they physically choke her? I would bet my bottom dollar against it.

Yet, because it's "womanly" Reid, that sequence is somehow OK.

Perhaps you see some depth and other nuances in the characterization of Reid that I don't see...I'll grant you that. I'll also agree that Reid in S1-S5 and perhaps S6 had quite a bit of depth and very much had more traditional "masculine" qualities to him.

Since then, I just don't see that depth. Mind you, I don't see that depth in any CM character since S7, so the criticism of Reid being one-note isn't just one that applies to him, but I do believe it's more pronounced because of what that note is. Since he's playing "the weakling" it become far more noticeable and it's far more sickening than simply seeing ninja JJ or graybeard Rossi.

1 hour ago, JenJenBosco said:

@Danielg342

I understand what you're saying with him being 'that character' that they can get away with beating up on because he has female traits, but is a male.  Which is definitely not fair to him or any other character.  He shouldn't be victimized just because they can get away with it.  

I completely agree and love your analysis of the writers, and the differences between the Reids in those episodes.  I think that's part of the issue with his character always getting beaten up.  We need to see him come out on top against the unsubs or bad guys that are causing his pain, but lately he doesn't seem to come out on top like he did against Hankel.  I wonder when that change was made.  I'd love to see the pain if there was follow through, but generally there isn't much follow through.  

I definitely think there should be fleeting happiness along the way to make it seem more even in the writing, and do feel he's been failed by the writers, as well.  Poor Spencer.

Thank you. I appreciate the compliment.

I think the issue is very much with the writers who I don't believe see the character in any other fashion. As I said to JMO earlier, since we've seen from earlier episodes the gifts and talents he's able to bring as well as the knowledge that he's been a resilient, "tougher than he looks" person, it gets doubly frustrating when those traits get ignored by the writers.

The writers often complain they can't "write for Reid" but it seems like they found something they can write for the character. Unfortunately it's the stories where he gets beaten up and needs to be rescued by the team, because "weak Reid" is apparently more compelling to these writers than the sneaky, smart Reid we started the season with.

Reality is, we as an audience want the smart Reid, not the weak one. Unfortunately, these writers can't write characters with depth, so I'm not sure we'll ever see the Reid that bested Hankel ever again, sadly.

[JMO]

Danielg, I can’t agree with you on any of it—-not your analysis of antecedent literature, which serves as a basis for the rest of your opinion, nor your view of how Reid has been portrayed, nor the idea that ‘smart’ and ‘weak’ are antonyms. You are, course, entitled to your own perspective, and I, to my very different one.  But ‘perspective’ is all this really amounts to. 

[K42]

I think that, initially, Reid was meant to be someone who was analytical and a thinker I don't think the character was ever meant to be emotional and non-imposing. I always thought he was supposed to be stoic and mentally intimidating.

I haven't watched any of MGG's interviews but I always got the impression that the actor himself was emotional and sensitive. There's something about the way he talks and expresses with his eyes that makes him seem a like an old souI. I think the actors' personality spilled over to the character of Reid and when that happened, the writers saw an opportunity to run with the "tragedy for Reid" storylines. 

Edited April 23, 2018 by KatsDivision

[Danielg342]

I think the main takeaway is that if Reid is meant to be a tragic figure then the writers have ultimately failed to write him properly. It's not an effective or compelling tragedy if all you do is kick the poor guy repeatedly and incessantly (figuratively and relatively)- we have to see Reid do what he can to overcome his tragedies and mix in some positive moments, even if they only serve as "false hope".

[normasm]

8 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

Even during the prison arc, he didn't do anything to save himself- he only got out because Garcia found partial prints and Prentiss presented it as proof that Reid couldn't have committed the crime. The rest of the time Reid was only there to get bludgeoned and threatened by his stronger male prisonmates, and perhaps even raped if Calvin Shaw's heteroflexible "joke" is to be believed.

Yeah, Reid bested a woman in "Red Light"...but it was the BAU doing the legwork to rescue his mother, and it's telling that the only storyline where Reid actually gets to affect the plot it comes when his antagonist is a woman.

These two points I totally and vehemently disagree with, along with disagreeing with your post in general. Reid only got out of prison - after 3 months of the BAU whining about how much they needed to get him out of there - because he recognized Linsdey, and knew his mother was in danger. Emily didn't even believe him until it was made evident by Cassie's stinking corpse (poor Cassie), hours later, and only then did the BAU begin the "legwork" needed to get him out. Oh, and, he had to stab himself to get to protective custody.

Reid affecting the plot when his antagonist was a man include LDSK (with Hotch), Derailed ("I totally saved your life!"), Fisher King Part2, Revelations, Damaged ("I do some of my best work under intense terror"), Elephant's Memory, Corazon, True Genius, Persuasion, there are probably others, but you get my drift.

[K42]

3 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

I think the main takeaway is that if Reid is meant to be a tragic figure then the writers have ultimately failed to write him properly. It's not an effective or compelling tragedy if all you do is kick the poor guy repeatedly and incessantly (figuratively and relatively)- we have to see Reid do what he can to overcome his tragedies and mix in some positive moments, even if they only serve as "false hope".

 

The writers' are very inconsistent with Reid. 

[Danielg342]

3 hours ago, normasm said:

Reid only got out of prison - after 3 months of the BAU whining about how much they needed to get him out of there - because he recognized Linsdey, and knew his mother was in danger. Emily didn't even believe him until it was made evident by Cassie's stinking corpse (poor Cassie), hours later, and only then did the BAU begin the "legwork" needed to get him out. Oh, and, he had to stab himself to get to protective custody.

Again, Reid didn't get out of jail until the partial prints were presented. He didn't need to do anything for that plot point to come up (except in the technical sense that he had to have provided his fingerprints). I'll give him points that stabbing himself worked, but it didn't help move the main plot- get Reid out of jail- all that much. I'll also not say much about Calvin Shaw since his plot meant nothing in the grand scheme of things except as a diversion.

I've already granted that Reid was more active in "Red Light", but it bears repeating that he was only active once his adversary was known to be a woman.

3 hours ago, normasm said:

Reid affecting the plot when his antagonist was a man include LDSK (with Hotch), Derailed ("I totally saved your life!"), Fisher King Part2, Revelations, Damaged ("I do some of my best work under intense terror"), Elephant's Memory, Corazon, True Genius, Persuasion, there are probably others, but you get my drift.

The fact that most of your examples ar3 early seasons episodes just reinforces my point. I have never argued that early seasons Reid wasn't active- he often was in the early seasons- just that lately he's mostly just a passive spectator.

[normasm]

The partial prints they got were Lindsey's, and she wasn't even on their radar until Reid told Prentiss "Find Lindsey!"

And my points aren't to dispute your criticism of later writing being inferior and inconsistent, I've said this many times. But Reid's being more sensitive and less likely to be confrontational, especially physically, has nothing to do with whether his adversary is male or female, and this trait is present throughout the canon.

[JMO]

I don’t think you can consider Reid’s time in prison without factoring in Calvin Shaw. The weak, needing-to-be-protected Reid that you propose would have continued to lap up Shaw’s favor. But Reid figured him out quickly enough, and became his adversary.  Hardly weak. 

I see Reid as someone who knows where he excels and where he doesn’t. He uses his brain where someone else might use brawn. But that should in no way be construed as weakness.  It’s smart, and capable and, frankly, more admirable than it would be if he’d beaten his point into someone.  If you want to characterize those traits as feminine—-thank you!

[Danielg342]

I'm not saying I agree at all with "feminine=weak". That's just how Hollywood tends to think.

[Danielg342]

I also think my original point is getting lost. Yeah, I do very much think Reid is supposed to play Hollywood's idea of a "feminine woman", but that just informs my point.

Rather, I think CM wanted to have a "feminine woman" to continuously torture and destroy, but, knowing they couldn't actually put a woman in that role, they "feminized" Reid in order to get the desired effect.

This, I find, to be rather revolting. There's the obvious disgust at framing a story just to have an excuse to cause pain to anyone, let alone directing that pain at a woman.

What I find troublesome is that there seems to be a double standard in effect. If this was Garcia who was constantly tortured by having loved ones killed in front of her eyes, physically beaten in prison and maybe even raped, The Mary Sue and Everyday Feminism would never tire of writing lazy outraged diatribes at how evil CM is for "destroying such a poor woman".

Because it's Reid? No one raises a peep, even though I'd argue his vulnerability is the same as Penelope Garcia's.

This is what I find to be very troubling- the idea that men who aren't "masculine" somehow don't deserve respect like a woman or a more masculine man would.

I think one of the qualities that drew me to Reid was that, like Reid, I'm not what you would consider a "macho" guy. I'm not as skinny as he is and I probably do have some muscle strength, but I'm the kind of guy who abhors violence and would rather solve problems diplomatically and with my head.

I live in a society that constantly tells me that I need to "man up" and "not be so emotional", that only by physical prowess can I really gain respect.

Heck, some idiot at work made chicken noises at me because I would rather complain to HR than punch someone out. I think of that as the smart thing to do, but, sadly, it seems the only way another man ever gets his point across to another man is through aggression.

Anyway, for me, to see Reid getting constantly pummelled with no end in sight feels like, to a guy like me, as a subtle reminder that if I'm not physically strong and willing to use my physicality, I "deserve" whatever pain I get, because Reid gets pummelled all the time simply due to the fact that he doesn't fight back.

That just doesn't sit well with me. No one deserves pain and suffering, and certainly no one deserves said pain and suffering because they don't want to be a "masculine" man.

Yet this is what the CM writers do to Reid, and I'm sick of it.

[JMO]

I'm going to end my part in this conversation, because I don't agree with you on pretty much anything, but I've said all I'm inclined to say.  

[JenJenBosco]

2 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

Yet this is what the CM writers do to Reid, and I'm sick of it.

I understand what you're saying, DanielG, and this is exactly my issue with what keeps happening with Reid.  I'm tired of them beating him up just because he uses his brain more than his brawn.  It was different in early seasons, a lot better, because there were moments of happiness...like with Lila or Austen or when he visited his mom right before being named Henry's godfather.  It's later seasons that he loses things, but doesn't have fleeting happiness, and it's just sad.  

[R3volver]

I really don't think the writer's intentions regarding the torturing of Reid goes beyond evoking a reaction from the viewers.  He's generally the fan favorite and the character long-time viewers are invested in the most.  That's not to say that people wouldn't feel anything about it if it happened to another character, but it's Reid.   This writing tactic goes way beyond Criminal Minds and in my opinion, it's overused.

I also don't get the impression that the torture is to show that he deserves it for not being masculine enough.  I don't think it has to do with masculinity or femininity at all, but as I said, more about getting the viewer emotionally involved as much as possible.  Conflict piques interest, and well, Reid is the best candidate for the desired effect.

[Annber03]

15 hours ago, R3volver said:

This writing tactic goes way beyond Criminal Minds and in my opinion, it's overused.

Yep. Reid is an example of the "woobie" that's common in lots of shows, the character that tugs at people's heartstrings anytime something bad happens to them, be it mental, emotional, or physical. I don't know how men tend to respond to those types of characters when they watch TV, but I know a lot of women definitely respond to seeing a woobie-type character in pain, with the whole "let me take care of you!" response I mentioned upthread a ways. I don't know if that impacts the "masculine/feminine" debate in any way one way or another, but yeah. Just agreeing with you that he's part of a common theme in television shows. 

[JenJenBosco]

I definitely agree that he is the woobie-character in the series.  Every time I see his sadness, I think 'poor Spencer' and want to give him a hug.  --> Which I'm fairly certain is common among his fans.

[Danielg342]

I never thought suggesting Reid has an air of femininity to him would prove so controversial. I don't mean that as a slight, I just believe the show uses that trait in the worst possible way.

I'm not necessarily saying Reid "deserves" his treatment because he's not "masculine enough". I don't believe the show is intending to say that. However, I feel the show is reinforcing some negative stereotypes by choosing to make him "the woobie" instead of "stronger" characters, or, worse, by never having Reid have moments where he experiences a grand triumph or a meaningful moment of happiness.

[idiotwaltz]

I really hate the scruff. My only wish for Season 14 is a clean-shaven Reid. 

[K42]

On 4/28/2018 at 12:20 PM, idiotwaltz said:

I really hate the scruff. My only wish for Season 14 is a clean-shaven Reid. 

I love the scruff! He looks so wild and sexy with it. *swoon*

[normasm]

I like the scruff, too. And how he was completely without a tie in Believer. 

[K42]

37 minutes ago, normasm said:

I like the scruff, too. And how he was completely without a tie in Believer. 

Reid in Believer was something else.. 

[JMO]

MGG can do whatever he wants, but I like Reid clean shaven, with a loose tie.  I think I wouldn’t mind the scruff so much if the mustache wasn’t so prominent.  it just evokes ‘smarmy’ in me.

[idiotwaltz]

3 hours ago, JMO said:

MGG can do whatever he wants, but I like Reid clean shaven, with a loose tie.  I think I wouldn’t mind the scruff so much if the mustache wasn’t so prominent.  it just evokes ‘smarmy’ in me.

Yes, that’s exactly it. Maybe his PTSD is manifesting through his scruff? IDK. 

I like some of the suits he wore this season, but I miss the sweater vests and Mr Rogers cardigans. 

Edited April 29, 2018 by idiotwaltz

[Lefty31]

Reid is my favorite character. By far. 

Edited July 8, 2018 by Lefty31

[Mislav]

Man, this Wikipedia summary of Spencer Reid's life (on the show) sounds just sad and almost pathetic.

It starts out OK:

"Spencer Reid (Matthew Gray Gubler), supervisory special agent (all seasons) Reid is a genius who graduated from Las Vegas High School at age 12 and holds Ph.D.s in mathematics, chemistry, andengineering as well as bachelor of arts degrees in psychology and sociology and, as of season 4, is working on a B.A. in philosophy. It has been revealed that he has an IQ of 187, can read a dizzying 20,000 words per minute, and has an eidetic memory. Most of the members on the team are intimidated by his profound knowledge. He is habitually introduced as "Dr. Spencer Reid" in contrast to the other agents, who are introduced as "supervisory special agent". The purpose of this, as explained by Unit Chief Aaron Hotchner in the pilot episode ("Extreme Aggressor"), is to create a respectable first impression of Spencer, deflecting judgments about his age. His mother, Diana Reid (Jane Lynch), suffers from schizophrenia and is currently committed to a mental institution."

And then...

"In season 6, Reid starts suffering from cluster headaches and when doctors can't diagnose why, Reid thinks he might be in the early stages of schizophrenia himself. Reid takes SSA Emily Prentiss' death very hard and, when it was revealed the death was faked, was distrustful of both Prentiss and SSA Jennifer Jareau (who helped in the cover-up) for some time. During season 8, Reid becomes involved with a woman who was being stalked. In the episode "Zugzwang", her stalker ultimately kidnaps her and kills her, devastating Reid. In season 11, he is deeply affected by Derek Morgan's decision to leave the BAU, but understands and supports his reasons. Initially Reid had a crush on JJ, even going as far as taking her on a date to a football game. As the series progresses, their relationship becomes more of the brother–sister kind, however they confess feelings for each other in seasons 14 and 15, but nothing ever becomes of it, due to J.J.’s marriage and children. Morgan and Reid maintained a brotherly relationship and Morgan refers to Reid as his "little brother" prior to his departure in season 11. Spencer is also the godfather of Jennifer's son, Henry, and Derek's son, Hank. In season 12, Reid is himself arrested and finds himself in prison for the back half of the season."

And, as icing on the cake:

"In season 15, he gets another girlfriend, Max, but she only appears in two episodes (Episode 4 & 6). He also has a flirty relationship with serial killer Cat Adams, starting in season 11. It is obvious she has feelings for Spencer, though it is never made clear whether he also had feelings for her, or if he simply flirted to get her to reveal her plans."

It just goes to show how much the writers and showrunners cared about his character... not. Especially in later seasons.

[Mislav]

Just leaving this here...

https://youtube.com/watch?v=VTx0egqqehU

[Mislav]

When I think about it, I can kind of see MGG starring in (and possibly also writing/directing) a reboot of some old, dark, campy mystery anthology series, such as "Alfred Hitchcock Presents". (And I don't usually like reboots/remakes.) Possibly even with the rest of the Criminal Minds cast. I can imagine Matthew starring as a young, quirky, go-lucky gambler in a reboot of the legendary episode "Man from the South" (woman in this case); with either Beth Riesgraf or Michelle Trachtenberg portraying his girlfriend, Aubrey Plaza portraying a crazy (but supposedly rich) girl from the bar who wants to cut his finger off if he can't light his lighter ten times in a row without failing, and Joe Mantegna starring as a jolly, slightly eccentric bar patron who agrees to serve as a referee for their bet. And at the end, Paget Brewster or Jeanne Tripplehorn shows up in a role of Aubrey's girlfriend (or mother, or... supervisor of some kind) to end the bet, right after the eighth try. Once everything is over, his girlfriend pulls out a cigarette and Matthew's character goes to light it; his lighter fails to ignite.

Edited September 16, 2020 by Mislav

[idiotwaltz]

I was watching Horsegirl on Netflix and caught MGG in a cameo ... playing a detective on TV. 

[JMO]

Quote

7 hours ago, idiotwaltz said:

I was watching Horsegirl on Netflix and caught MGG in a cameo ... playing a detective on TV. 

What did you think of it?  I liked it more than I expected to.  
 

 

[idiotwaltz]

8 hours ago, JMO said:

 

I don’t think I really understood what was going on, which might have been the point of the movie. As Reid says, how it feels to be scared of your own mind.

I was impressed by Alison Brie’s performance in this because I’d previously only seen her in comedies and I had no idea she could do drama so well. 

[Hathaway]

SO late to this show, but utterly addicted now.  Thanks Netflix.  Who could have guessed?  Spencer as a sex symbol.  Nah.  Just one of me favorite characters of all time!

[Hathaway]

Prentis looks like Morticia Adams in the Mexico scenes.  

[trudysmom]

Hathaway, YES!  I even call her Morticia when I talk about her to friends and family (who don't watch the show and don't get my fascination with it).  

[Hathaway]

6 hours ago, trudysmom said:

Hathaway, YES!  I even call her Morticia when I talk about her to friends and family (who don't watch the show and don't get my fascination with it).  

What was she thinking??  I was so distracted I stopped worrying about cutie Spence!  At first I thought she was a delusion, and about to start snapping her fingers!

[Mislav]

Zugzwang is a frustrating episode in many ways, but it made me think that Matthew Gray Gubler and Michelle Trachtenberg would make good leads/couple in some Gothic horror-thriller. Especially if it was made (visually) in the 90s grunge style, like The Crow. I know most would suggest Aubrey Plaza, but we already saw her and Matthew play off each other on Criminal Minds (more often, closer to that way, unlike with Diane Turner), and they also both starred in Life After Beth.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Mislav

[idiotwaltz]

Caught MGG in a recurring guest role in Dollface, in which he plays a cat doctor. Got to hear him say, “Do you know how many dicks he ate?” in relation to the sick cat. 

There was a moment or two where the character reminded me of Reid and his very first scene is reminiscent of his meet-cute with Max in the park.