The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why

[Shanna Marie]

"Wouldn't it be cool" is a perfectly valid idea-generation technique. The trick is that you can't stop there. You need to actually think and develop it, and consider how it fits into what you already have.

So, "wouldn't it be cool if the girls had a fun bar night and Snow challenged a bunch of Vikings to a knife-throwing contest -- and won!" is a fun idea. But think about it for a moment. What leads to the girls' night out? Isn't it a bit weird for Snow to be off playing with Vikings when they're supposedly consoling Emma after the love of her life, the man she went into the Underworld for and was willing to share her heart with, seems to just leave town and abandon her? Maybe it would have been better suited to a celebration, like if they were celebrating Emma's engagement. Emma's mother off playing drunkenly with strangers doesn't look good if her daughter is emotionally devastated. Plus, there's the problem that they get into the ragging on Hook, who's off in the other plot moving heaven and earth to get back to Emma -- and yet the reason behind his fight with Emma was her being mad that he didn't have faith in her and her family's ability to forgive him. So if they're ragging on him and assuming the worst of him, maybe you're showing that he wasn't wrong, that he had reason to worry.

If they want to send Hook off on a solo adventure, during which he runs into various characters they can't quite have coming to Storybrooke, which is kind of a cool concept, there needs to be a reason. They took care of finding a way to get him away when you wouldn't think he'd leave Emma and gave him a quest, but to have Gideon send him away, they then need to come up with with Gideon's plan is that requires Hook to be sent away and Emma to believe he abandoned her, and what they showed us doesn't fit what we just saw of Gideon. Meanwhile, Emma believing Hook just abandoned her requires Emma to forget the past 3 1/2 seasons of Hook's behavior. Maybe we needed something specific to explain why she'd believe he abandoned her, why she'd give up on "I'll always find you" and assume he would, as well.

[Camera One]

10 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

they managed to combine the two romance tropes that will have me hurling books across the room at great force. I used to have to read to judge romances for an industry award, and this is two of the things that always drove me mad.

First, there's the interrupted confession trope -- one person in the relationship has something he needs to tell the other person (and it usually is the man). He starts to tell, usually by saying something like, "There's something I need to tell you." She then does something to divert the conversation, usually by incorrectly identifying what he wants to talk about and answering as though she knows, when she's actually totally wrong. Sometimes she won't even let him talk because she assumes she knows what he's talking about and doesn't think it matters. Then when she finds out another way, she's furious and feels lied to and betrayed.

Then there's the leaping to the worst conclusion trope -- one person in the relationship learns something about the other, completely out of context, and instantly assumes the worst, not considering anything she knows about his personality and history. Then she learns the truth, and all is well. It's okay because the thing she was mad about wasn't true, after all, but the fact that she was so quick to assume the worst about him never comes up, and he's not allowed to be hurt or angry that she thought so little of him.

So here we get two tropes in one -- she interrupts the confession (which he still should have made, but she made it so much harder by assuming he was talking about the proposal), then she leaps to the worst conclusion about him. 

These two tropes are used on a regular basis on soap operas.  That's why that whole subplot reminds me of "Days of Our Lives".  

So the question is - when does writing for a primetime drama elevate above a soap opera?  

Defenders of soap operas might argue that there are tons of character moments on soap opera because they're constantly dragging things out.  

Another common feature of this show and a soap opera is repetitive writing, since characters must constantly be in turmoil with no end in sight, as long as they remain on the show.  So soap characters tend to go through the same struggles over and over again, and soap couples being featured are constantly see-sawing ad nauseum.  

In addition, just like a soap opera, secrets and lies are driving forces, because that creates drama and suspense.  

Edited April 8, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

So the question is - when does writing for a primetime drama elevate above a soap opera? 

It doesn't on Once Upon a Time. It's been a soap opera since S4.

Edited April 8, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[tennisgurl]

On ‎4‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 4:26 PM, Shanna Marie said:

"Wouldn't it be cool" is a perfectly valid idea-generation technique. The trick is that you can't stop there. You need to actually think and develop it, and consider how it fits into what you already have.

You know, over on Legends of Tomorrow (superheroes from different shows in the DCCW and others travel time and fight evil), "Wouldn't it be cool" seems to be pretty much how they came up most of the episodes from this last season, especially the one off episodes. "Wouldn't it be cool if we gave a power suit to a warlord in feudal Japan? Wouldn't it be cool if the Gang went back to prohibition and fought Al Capone, whos being aided by super villains? Wouldn't it be cool if a super powerful ancient artifact stained with the blood of Christ ended up in the hands of a film student named George Lucas?" was pretty much the entire season, alongside an overarching plot and the mechanisms of the Big Bads. However, unlike when Once half asses their cool ideas and have to make their characters act stupid or out of character to make things line up, the LoT writers fully commit to the ridiculousness of the stories, and let the characters react in ways that make sense for their personalities and relationships, and can lead to character development and examining the team dynamics of the main heroes. Once has a tendency to come up with cool ideas, but that's all they seem to have. They get an idea, but they have no idea how to get to that idea, or what that idea will mean for the characters or the story at large.  Hook having an adventure with Ariel, Aladdin, and Jasmine sounds cool, but it just comes across as padding. Hook is trying to get back to Emma, and instead ends up in this other random story that has nothing to do with anything, and will probably contribute nothing to the story arc. Its all so random and pointless. It has no ability to make its cool ideas work with the greater story. LoT has done a great job this season balancing these wacky side adventures, while also showing how they affect the main plot, and what happens actually has real consequences. Even when they end up not mattering much to the main plot, I didn't feel like it was pointless padding (usually), because we learned new things about the characters or their universe. Once could really learn from LoT, in more ways then one*.

*I actually have a whole different compare/contrast rant about LoT and Once, but that's for another day.

Edited April 9, 2017 by tennisgurl

[Shanna Marie]

19 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

However, unlike when Once half asses their cool ideas and have to make their characters act stupid or out of character to make things line up, the LoT writers fully commit to the ridiculousness of the stories, and let the characters react in ways that make sense for their personalities and relationships, and can lead to character development and examining the team dynamics of the main heroes.

I really get the sense that some actual brainstorming has happened on LOT -- so they have have the cool idea that Rip has lost his memory and thinks he's a film student, and his assistant is George Lucas, but then they figure out what role George Lucas might play, how interfering with his life might affect the timeline and how that would affect these characters, and then they obviously had a lot of fun coming up with events that mirrored events in Lucas's movies that might look like inspiration. On Once, they'd have had a character named George Lucas show up briefly and just stand there. The "cool" part would be having George Lucas show up, and they'd consider that to be so cool that they didn't need to do anything else.

19 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Hook having an adventure with Ariel, Aladdin, and Jasmine sounds cool, but it just comes across as padding.

The problem there was that he didn't actually have anything that might count as an "adventure." He had conversations about their relationship with Aladdin and Jasmine, then they all stood in a hut and had a conversation, then Jafar knocked Ariel, Hook, and Aladdin out, then Jasmine had a conversation with Jafar and threw magic sand at him. Seriously, they put Captain Hook on the Nautilus, then threw in Aladdin, Jasmine, and Ariel, put them up against Jafar, and they mostly just stood around talking. They didn't do anything.

I get the feeling that they think the mere presence of these iconic storybook characters is enough. They can just have a character show up, and that's plenty cool. They don't have to use the character's history, don't have to have the character actually do anything.

23 hours ago, Camera One said:

So the question is - when does writing for a primetime drama elevate above a soap opera?  

The thing that should separate a show like this from a soap opera is that this show has plenty of external conflict in addition to the character conflicts. If Hook and Emma got together and never had another bit of relationship drama, never had any additional personal angst, the series would still go on and could still be quite interesting. As long as Rumple's in town, there's magic, there's the possibility of new villains coming through portals, there's the possibility of being portaled to another world, or there are people Hook has clashed with in the past, there will still be plenty of conflict and drama. The frustrating thing about this show is that while they're throwing in all this contrived drama, they never actually deal with the drama they've already created, and none of the stuff that they contrive ends up mattering at all.

Would it have changed much about anything in the show if Emma hadn't spent the first half of the season having the tremors and death visions? It was angst for the sake of angst that did nothing for the plot. They're doing all this Hook drama now, but never dealt with any effects from being the Dark One, being killed, coming back to life, and there's a good chance that the current drama will soon be forgotten. As a result, we get piled up random bits of conflict in a way that's very soapy without anything really mattering.

[Tiger]

20 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

You know, over on Legends of Tomorrow (superheroes from different shows in the DCCW and others travel time and fight evil), "Wouldn't it be cool" seems to be pretty much how they came up most of the episodes from this last season, especially the one off episodes. "Wouldn't it be cool if we gave a power suit to a warlord in feudal Japan? Wouldn't it be cool if the Gang went back to prohibition and fought Al Capone, whos being aided by super villains? Wouldn't it be cool if a super powerful ancient artifact stained with the blood of Christ ended up in the hands of a film student named George Lucas?" was pretty much the entire season, alongside an overarching plot and the mechanisms of the Big Bads. However, unlike when Once half asses their cool ideas and have to make their characters act stupid or out of character to make things line up, the LoT writers fully commit to the ridiculousness of the stories, and let the characters react in ways that make sense for their personalities and relationships, and can lead to character development and examining the team dynamics of the main heroes. Once has a tendency to come up with cool ideas, but that's all they seem to have. They get an idea, but they have no idea how to get to that idea, or what that idea will mean for the characters or the story at large.  Hook having an adventure with Ariel, Aladdin, and Jasmine sounds cool, but it just comes across as padding. Hook is trying to get back to Emma, and instead ends up in this other random story that has nothing to do with anything, and will probably contribute nothing to the story arc. Its all so random and pointless. It has no ability to make its cool ideas work with the greater story. LoT has done a great job this season balancing these wacky side adventures, while also showing how they affect the main plot, and what happens actually has real consequences. Even when they end up not mattering much to the main plot, I didn't feel like it was pointless padding (usually), because we learned new things about the characters or their universe. Once could really learn from LoT, in more ways then one*.

*I actually have a whole different compare/contrast rant about LoT and Once, but that's for another day.

I dont watch Legends of Tomorrow, when I do watch Agents of Shield, and when I compare the alternate reality world building Once did with the wish realm with what Shield is currently doing with its 'Agents of Hydra' arc, it really makes me question just what the fuck the Once writers at least think they're doing. 

[KAOS Agent]

Does anyone know what a potential writers' strike would do for Once? Does it help an aging bubble show because everything is pretty established and they could get up to speed with writing new episodes pretty quickly if a strike happened and they had to get stuff done fast? Or does a delay in starting the TV season mean a loss of viewers and make it more easily cancelled?

Edited April 9, 2017 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

Some gems from the Writers' Assistant who wrote the teleplay for this week's episode.

Paul Karp‏ @InterruptingDad  
See? Gideon's not so bad. Not his fault! #onceuponatime #ouat

Paul Karp‏ @InterruptingDad
Replying to @Juanfri_Juanfra @AdamHorowitzLA
Like Gideon, Roderick was abducted as a small child by the Black Fairy. I can't say which realm he's from in case we revisit his story. :)

------

Clearly, this writer is new to the show.  No way in hell they're going to revisit Roderick's story, LOL.  

Edited April 11, 2017 by Camera One

[Guest]

On ‎4‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 6:26 PM, Shanna Marie said:

"Wouldn't it be cool" is a perfectly valid idea-generation technique. The trick is that you can't stop there. You need to actually think and develop it, and consider how it fits into what you already have.

Its inexcusable that the writers clearly don't go back to the source material, its derivations, and interpretations when they introduce a new fairy tale.  I'm not even sure that they even bother to go in depth enough to read Wikipedia.

Its baffling that introducing Aladdin to the Land of Untold Stories didn't lead to taking a look at Arabian Nights and getting ideas on how to incorporate those stories with the cast of characters on the show.  There is no collection of tales better suited to tie into the show's Author mythology by making Scheherazade an Author and Arabian Nights her OUAT book.

It often feels like they have decided that if something isn't common knowledge to the average viewer then its not suitable to be incorporated into the show, so they don't bother with research or brainstorming (so no one researches to be a show off and infect the group with *gasp* ideas).

Its as if they think that unknown tales or elements of tales that didn't make it into Disney movies or popular culture would make the show too hard for viewers to watch.  But I've always thought that if they told the story well or even drew inspiration from an obscure story, they'd get lauded for being creative with some seeing the inspiration and some not as long as people were entertained.

I guess the writers know their limitations. 

[Shanna Marie]

3 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

Its as if they think that unknown tales or elements of tales that didn't make it into Disney movies or popular culture would make the show too hard for viewers to watch. 

Heck, they don't even go deep enough to actually mine the elements in the Disney movies. Everything is woefully underdeveloped. We had a brilliant Pan, but Neverland amounted to a few potted plants, with no real sense of anything that would be appealing to the Lost Boys. They hinted at a backstory with Maleficent, but all we got to see was her encounter with Regina that led to her putting Aurora under the sleeping curse. They never bothered to get into that story. We got one bit of backstory for Ursula, but never saw what she did during her "evil" phase. Cruella was barely present. They got bored with Camelot midway through and didn't even bother to resolve that story. We never learned anything about Hades' motivation and goals. It's like they think all they have to do is trot out an iconic character and say, "Look! It's <famous storybook/Disney character>!" and that does it. The reference seldom goes deeper than a costume and a name.

[Camera One]

Watch the WHOLE Disney movie?  Are you kidding?  I'm sure there's a "Sleeping Beauty in 1 minute" on Youtube.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

17 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

The reference seldom goes deeper than a costume and a name.

Yup. It's like a famous name drop. 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Watch the WHOLE Disney movie?  Are you kidding?  I'm sure there's a "Sleeping Beauty in 1 minute" on Youtube.

They just need Wikipedia.  Seriously the ideas that come from Wikipedia.  Speaking of Sleeping Beauty.  I think I secretly want this show to be a crime procedural where Emma and friends find all the serial killers in fairy tales and bring them to justice.

It irks me that no one bothered to bring up the fact Phillip's Mom was probably an Ogre that ate people.

[Camera One]

4 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Yup. It's like a famous name drop. 

You mean you don't find the Dr. Doolittle line satisfying?

[Tiger]

A&E and all of this shows writers and producers need to be forced to watch Agents of Shield's current 'Agents of Hydra' arc to learn how to world-build.  Or they need to go audit some local college's creative writing class, because seriously these folks obviously lack the basic tools to build and explore a story.

[KingOfHearts]

OUAT sounds amazing when you tell people all the famous characters that are in it, and all the crazy adventures that happen. It doesn't even need to be a slower character drama to be interesting. It just needs to adhere to basic story writing rules. Even if it's only random adventures, it could still be entertaining. 

The writers should drop trying to replicate S1. The Saturday morning cartoons we've had have been better than S6.

Edited April 12, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, Tiger said:

A&E and all of this shows writers and producers need to be forced to watch Agents of Shield's current 'Agents of Hydra' arc to learn how to world-build.  Or they need to go audit some local college's creative writing class, because seriously these folks obviously lack the basic tools to build and explore a story.

I read an article once about how the show Terra Nova was brought to television which I wish I could find.  Basically it started as a one page memo and then got handed off to a series of showrunners who all bailed when their own shows got green lit.  It was basically doomed from the day they came home from filming overseas to realize they didn't have enough footage for the pilot (whoops).

That article stuck with me because it convinced me that there is a certain type of genre show that is just doomed to fail if the showrunners aren't actively engaged in either the conception of a show or bringing a show based on something they loved to air.

That is why I find OUAT and A&E baffling.  I can't think of a show that is more likely to succeed or fail based on world building and characterization than OUAT.  It needs to draw from fairy tales in order to thrive.  Its baffling to me that A&E could conceive of and bring a show to air that they are so ill suited to produce and write for.  How is that possible?

Edited April 12, 2017 by ParadoxLost

[Curio]

I still find it odd that A&E agreed to work on a completely different show (Dead of Summer) right in the middle of OUAT still being on the air. If I was a showrunner, I can't imagine the amount of pressure I'd be under every day trying to please the network, my co-writers, and the fandom. I work in a creative 9-5 job and it's exhausting having to be creative every day, all day, all year. So to think of A&E not only having to be creative on OUAT, but also having to be creative on a completely different show with different characters and mythology and settings and...I knew from the get go they couldn't pull it off. Again, if I were lucky enough to be a showrunner, I would want to devote every second of my free time to perfecting my current show, not getting sidetracked on other projects. I know that sometimes creative types can get writers' block thinking about one thing for too long, and focusing on other work for a little bit can actually give a better perspective to other projects, but with a show like OUAT where each season changes so drastically based on the Disney characters it uses, it's hard to imagine that as an excuse. It makes me wonder if A&E wanting to work on Dead of Summer was a sign that they already kind of checked out of OUAT mentally. Season 6 seems so slapped together that it's almost as if A&E were purposely trying to piss off every fandom on their way out the door to get back at us for being so critical over the years. 

Also, I just realized if OUAT officially gets cancelled this year, that marks two A&E shows cancelled within less than a year from each other. 

[Camera One]

22 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

That is why I find OUAT and A&E baffling.  I can't think of a show that is more likely to succeed or fail based on world building and characterization than OUAT.  It needs to draw from fairy tales in order to thrive.  Its baffling to me that A&E could conceive of and bring a show to air that they are so ill suited to produce and write for.  How is that possible?

It seems like their presentation of the show to the network and their Season 1 plan was vastly different from what they actually wanted to do.  Their pilot was rejected many times until they got help from Damon Lindelof of "Lost", who polished up their presentation.  So the show SEEMED like it was going to be about a bunch of fairy tale characters with the focus on Snow White's family.  But actually, the whole thing was meant to be about The Evil Queen and how she never got her happy ending.  But you can see that past Season 1, they had very little interest in actual fairy tales or folktales or mythology or any actual source material, even Disney movies.  

8 minutes ago, Curio said:

It makes me wonder if A&E wanting to work on Dead of Summer was a sign that they already kind of checked out of OUAT mentally. Season 6 seems so slapped together that it's almost as if A&E were purposely trying to piss off every fandom on their way out the door to get back at us for being so critical over the years. 

I doubt it.  They think they can do it all.  They wanted to make hay while the sun shines.  They seriously thought "Dead of Summer" was a great concept.  A&E are so clueless I'll be willing to bet they actually think Season 6 is great stuff.  These are the guys who LOVE the Evil Queen.  Such a storyline would be the pinnacle of everything they've ever written for this show.  The season sucks because their limited well has run dry for all the other characters.  They couldn't even see that "Dead of Summer" was a dead-end concept with no hope for Season 2 because what else could they do with that ending, even if the show had been okay?  Their ideas for the three-year plan was ridiculous and depended on amnesia (what else is new, eh?).

Edited April 12, 2017 by Camera One

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Camera One said:

It seems like their presentation of the show to the network and their Season 1 plan was vastly different from what they actually wanted to do.  Their pilot was rejected many times until they got help from Damon Lindelof of "Lost", who polished up their presentation.  So the show SEEMED like it was going to be about a bunch of fairy tale characters with the focus on Snow White's family.  But actually, the whole thing was meant to be about The Evil Queen and how she never got her happy ending.  But you can see that past Season 1, they had very little interest in actual fairy tales or folktales or mythology or any actual source material.  

I had forgotten about all that.  They basically came up with a show and the network made them do something different based on "Disney".  So while, I like the idea the network modified it to it kind of falls into the doomed to fail theory because the showrunners aren't doing their show and their show concept wasn't good enough to make it to screen.

7 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I doubt it.  They think they can do it all.  They wanted to make hay while the sun shines.  They seriously thought "Dead of Summer" was a great concept.  A&E are so clueless they actually think Season 6 great.  These are the guys who LOVE the Evil Queen.  This is like the pinnacle of everything they've ever written for this show.  The season sucks because their limited well has run dry for all the other characters.

Wasn't Dead of Summer basically an attempt to do a variation of Friday the 13th since MTV has Scream?

[Mitch]

I really think one of the main reasons that S1 was better and more logical..is that really they had years to work on mapping it out. Their years of rejection actually helped S1 in the long run as they had time to think about how they wanted to start it and end it. Even in S2 you could tell they didn't really care about the repercussions of the curse breaking, which would have been a logical area to explore...since the show was built around it. But they just wanted to get past that and into magic and more Disney sellplotation which was the easy and lazy way out. Imagine if we got a S2 where the first half was all about how the curse breaking effected everyone even the minor characters like Catherine, Charmings father, all the people in the town which I would guess, were seperated from their TWU WUVS and have been sleeping/"married" with people they basically hate for 28 years (at least, if I cast the curse that is how I woulda went with it, but Regina is not so great at curse casting with a charming town in Maine as her ideal of "horrible") Emma dealing with her new family, Snow dealing with Regina, Henry dealing with Regina, Charming dealing with his dad, the whole town dealing with Rump and Regina..(with hints of more bads to come, like Cruella's car driving by in the background...reports of fishing boats being destroyed...(Ursula) and a quick cameo of all of the dragon dust reforming into Maleficent and a sly ass smile on her face...) The the back end of S2 could have been Snow and Emma in the EF, Regina and her struggle for redemption, and the appearance of Cora,etc.) S2 suddenly didnt seem that well thought out (as it wasnt) and it got worse each season. 

Bascially with the show runners and the concept itself (which could wear thin quickly no matter who is writing) maybe the show should have been a miniseries, etc.

[Kktjones]

9 minutes ago, Mitch said:

 

I really think one of the main reasons that S1 was better and more logical..is that really they had years to work on mapping it out. Their years of rejection actually helped S1 in the long run as they had time to think about how they wanted to start it and end it. Even in S2 you could tell they didn't really care about the repercussions of the curse breaking, which would have been a logical area to explore...since the show was built around it. But they just wanted to get past that and into magic and more Disney sellplotation which was the easy and lazy way out. Imagine if we got a S2 where the first half was all about how the curse breaking effected everyone even the minor characters like Catherine, Charmings father, all the people in the town which I would guess, were seperated from their TWU WUVS and have been sleeping/"married" with people they basically hate for 28 years (at least, if I cast the curse that is how I woulda went with it, but Regina is not so great at curse casting with a charming town in Maine as her ideal of "horrible") Emma dealing with her new family, Snow dealing with Regina, Henry dealing with Regina, Charming dealing with his dad, the whole town dealing with Rump and Regina..(with hints of more bads to come, like Cruella's car driving by in the background...reports of fishing boats being destroyed...(Ursula) and a quick cameo of all of the dragon dust reforming into Maleficent and a sly ass smile on her face...)

 

This is actually exactly what I expected (and hoped for) in Season 2. Instead, they decided to separate Emma & Snow from Storybrooke right off the bat and never really deal with the fallout of the curse. There was so much gold to mine there! While 2A wasn't terrible, 2B was pretty bad and doing what you outlined above would have alleviated so many issues. Then we could have been off to Neverland in 3A with a really shaky partnership btw. Regina and the heroes.

[Tiger]

13 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

OUAT sounds amazing when you tell people all the famous characters that are in it, and all the crazy adventures that happen. It doesn't even need to be a slower character drama to be interesting. It just needs to adhere to basic story writing rules. Even if it's only random adventures, it could still be entertaining. 

The writers should drop trying to replicate S1. The Saturday morning cartoons we've had have been better than S6.

Heh, its uncanny that the mid 90's Disney Channel cartoon show managed to perfectly capture the badassery of Al & Jas from the movies, yet the writers and producers of a major broadcast tv show in 2016 totally fucked them up.  

[Shanna Marie]

I've seen the opening of the animated Aladdin movie used as a case study in a screenwriting book for an opening sequence that does everything you need an opening sequence to do -- introduce the protagonist, establish his situation and skills, build empathy for him, and establish the world. We see that he's a thief and has those skills, as well as the ability to elude pursuit and find his way around the city, but what he's stealing is food, which helps build some empathy because we can see he's stealing to survive rather than for greed, and then there's even more empathy when he shares the food he stole with a starving child. Meanwhile, his journey through the city gives us a good overview of Agrabah, and it establishes what conditions are like there with the sultan under Jafar's thumb, with children starving in the streets and the law so harsh that the guards bother to pursue someone for stealing bread.

They seemed to be trying to mirror that opening when they introduced Aladdin on this show (aside from that bit in the season premiere), except they seem to have missed the point entirely. Aladdin is pickpocketing jewelry, not stealing to survive, and he's being pursued by Jasmine, who thinks he's a Savior. They never use his thievery or evasion skills in the story, so there's no point to establishing him as a thief, and there's nothing to build empathy other than whatever carryover there is from his animated counterpart. Worse, we keep seeing him stealing in Storybrooke, where there's no indication that he's starving or can't find a job. There's nothing about him, other than his Savior power, to even hint at why Jasmine would be in love with him. They only seem to be put together because their animated counterparts are together. There's nothing about this Jasmine and this Aladdin that shows them having any common ground or even interest in each other. We never learn how Jasmine figured out that he was a Savior, never saw them doing anything together to set up why it might have been any kind of dilemma that required her choosing duty over love, never saw what might bring them together now that he's no longer a Savior. Mostly, they ended up being two random people named Jasmine and Aladdin, with their source material, Disney or otherwise, barely being used or touched upon.

[KingOfHearts]

I really hate the pigeon-holing on this show. The writers need x to happen, but the characters wouldn't normally make it happen, so they use extraordinary means to force them to do what's required. In the end, you can't blame a character for doing something stupid, because some contrivance backed them into a corner. For example, Rumple's entire goal was to reach a Land Without Magic and find his son. But, along the way, it became apparent that he was ignoring big-ass beanstalks and all these other methods of travel. The writers wanted to expand world-hopping possibilities, but they had to come up with a solution for why Rumple could act so seemingly stupid. They came up with the prophecy chokehold. Because destiny said Cora's daughter would cast the Curse that would lead him to his son, nothing else mattered. The writers could come up with literally anything as some prophecy to clumsily patch up plot holes.

It bothers me the most when it comes to Emma. I would be fine if no one could have helped her because they were trapped in the Curse or other realms. But the fact that an army of people were capable of helping her but didn't because they didn't want to mess with the Savior mojo irks me. It wasn't because giving her a loving home would have stopped her from being a hero, but because the writers wanted flashback material without altering what was already in place. Retcons-but-not-retcons. If it doesn't change our view of Emma's story, why show it? All the people around her were forced to do stupid or douchey things to preserve the timeline. 

[Camera One]

The Writers think it is okay to just ignore plot points they themselves raised until they feel like bringing to the foreground.  In this week's episode, Emma FINALLY talks to Rumple and Belle about Gideon.  Even though he has had the sword for two episodes now and could have killed her at any point.  Why didn't Belle warn her "friends"?  Is Rumbelle hiding Blue's comatose body in the shop?  Did no one else in town notice Blue was gone?  Why was Gideon MIA for two episodes?  What was The Black Fairy doing all that time?  Having a coffee break?  The sloppiness of the writing is just astounding.  

[Curio]

24 minutes ago, Camera One said:

The Writers think it is okay to just ignore plot points they themselves raised until they feel like bringing to the foreground.  In this week's episode, Emma FINALLY talks to Rumple and Belle about Gideon.  Even though he has had the sword for two episodes now and could have killed her at any point.  Why didn't Belle warn her "friends"?  Is Rumbelle hiding Blue's comatose body in the shop?  Did no one else in town notice Blue was gone?  Why was Gideon MIA for two episodes?  What was The Black Fairy doing all that time?  Having a coffee break?  The sloppiness of the writing is just astounding.  

 

This is primarily because of the rigid character-centric formula they wedge themselves into. Belle can't warn the group about Gideon because it isn't her episode to shine in a centric. If they dropped the heavy focus of character centrics and only focused on telling a good story, we'd have a much better show.

[Camera One]

I agree that's the reason.  Though it has rarely been this egregious.

Edited April 13, 2017 by Camera One

[Curio]

6 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I agree that's the reason.  Though it has rarely been this egregious.

The longer the show stays on the air the more egregious it'll become because, at a certain point, we already know most of these characters' stories very well. At the beginning of the show in Seasons 1 and 2, the centric style of focusing on a character each episode worked better because we were still learning about these characters. But now that we know so much about the main cast, giving them centric after centric just leads to more retconning and repeating of story lines we've seen time and time again. The writers refused to evolve the show over the years and now they'll probably get cancelled because of it.

[Camera One]

In this case, I guess I was referring more to illogical sequencing rather than the flashback problem.  Ep 13 was when Gideon got the sword back.  Ep 14 had The Evil Queen plot dominating, and the B plot was Hook/Emma.  They didn't want to bring Gideon up at this point because it would probably have stopped Hook from even considering leaving.  At the very least, Ep 15 should have Belle telling Emma about Gideon, maybe telling Emma the sob story about his childhood.  It is very probable that Emma would "deal" by trying to find Gideon.  That should have replaced the bar plot, which served zero purpose but squeeze out Emma's tears, which could have fallen in many other ways.  Heck, Emma and Snow could have gone looking for Gideon together and they could talk about Emma's feelings after finding out Gideon was also an orphan separated from his parents and Snow could reflect on all those lost years with Emma. The episode could end with Gideon confronting Emma and Snow together at the end, as Gideon takes the sapling of true mother-daughter bonding.

Edited April 13, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

The longer the show stays on the air the more egregious it'll become because, at a certain point, we already know most of these characters' stories very well. At the beginning of the show in Seasons 1 and 2, the centric style of focusing on a character each episode worked better because we were still learning about these characters. But now that we know so much about the main cast, giving them centric after centric just leads to more retconning and repeating of story lines we've seen time and time again. The writers refused to evolve the show over the years and now they'll probably get cancelled because of it.

6x15 was by no means a masterpiece, but I would like to see concurrent events in other realms replace flashbacks. Have some characters go on an adventure in Agrabah or Wonderland, with the others in Storybrooke.

[Kktjones]

10 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I would like to see concurrent events in other realms replace flashbacks

I would too. I think the problem with 6x15 and 6x16 is that they were trying to squeeze in events in other realms AND flashbacks in addition to Storybrooke. So you ended up with three, or even four storylines, going on in the same episode. The best example I can think of is 5x21, Last Rites, which had the Hook/Arthur team up in the Underworld and the "defeat Hades" story in SB. The action in both places was working towards the same goal so the pacing was great and it felt very cohesive. I hope if they make it to S7 they completely do away with flashbacks unless they are related to new characters and even then, used sparingly.

Edited April 13, 2017 by Kktjones

[KingOfHearts]

3 minutes ago, Kktjones said:

I would too. I think the problem with 6x15 and 6x16 is that they were trying to squeeze in events in other realms AND flashbacks in addition to Storybrooke. The best example I can think of is 5x21, Last Rites, which had the Hook/Arthur team up in the Underworld and the defeat Hades story in SB. The action in both places was working towards the same goal so the pacing was great and it felt very cohesive. I hope if they make it to S7 they completely do away with flashbacks unless they are related to new characters and even then, used sparingly.

Another good example is "Into the Deep", the 2A episode with the burning room. There were no flashbacks there. Though, 2A had a knack for balancing flashbacks, Team Princess, and Storybrooke. "Fall" and "Snow Drifts/There's No Place Like Home" are great too.

Edited April 13, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I agree the two realms format worked well in "Last Rites" since they were working towards a common goal.  It's definitely not a guarantee of a good episode, though.  "I'll Be Your Mirror" was a two-realm, no flashback episode, and meh.

Flashback or not, it's an engaging story which is most important.  I sometimes prefer flashback stories to the go-nowhere Storybrooke plot.  With "Mother's Little Helper", they did flashback, present-day Storybrooke AND present-day Other Realm... the bigger problem was 2 out of the 3 were boring.  If anyone expects A&E to give up flashbacks entirely, they'd be sorely disappointed.  It's their writing crutch and there's no way they will (or can) give it up.  There was a Black Fairy origin story that could have been worth telling, but they decided to go sob story Gideon and "surprise twist!", his heart is being controlled!  Which is the format they prefer and like best.

Edited April 13, 2017 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

Quote

There was a Black Fairy origin story that could have been worth telling

You say this like you don't believe a Black Fairy origin story is coming. Do you not know these writers? 

Edited April 13, 2017 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

29 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

You say this like you don't believe a Black Fairy origin story is coming. Do you not know these writers? 

I do know it's coming, but I was referring to an example of a flashback story that might be worth the screentime, as opposed to the Gideon one, which shed zero light on anything, really.

[KingOfHearts]

Just now, Camera One said:

I do know it's coming, but I was referring to an example of a flashback story that might be worth the screentime, as opposed to the Gideon one, which shed zero light on anything, really.

Sort of like a certain flashback featuring a green witch and a god on a power trip.

[Camera One]

Just now, KingOfHearts said:

Sort of like a certain flashback featuring a green witch and a god on a power trip.

You mean you didn't enjoy their love story (bike ride of love... swoon)?  I can't believe I'm saying this, but at least that one explored Zelena finding for the first time someone who could identify with her.  

[KingOfHearts]

1 minute ago, Camera One said:

You mean you didn't enjoy their love story (bike ride of love... swoon)?  I can't believe I'm saying this, but at least that one explored Zelena finding for the first time someone who could identify with her.  

It was a good step for Zelena, but it failed at giving Hades any sort of satisfying backstory. We were really missing an episode that showed his rivalry with Zeus.

Edited April 13, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Agreed.  I guess there are two worthwhile purposes of flashback... one is to explore an untapped aspect of a main character, and another is to explore the backstory and do worldbuilding around a guest character.  In that case, one purpose was fulfilled.   Whereas in "Mother's Little Helper", neither was fulfilled.  Exploring Gideon's backstory was not a bad idea per se.  But that story they wrote for him was lame.

[KingOfHearts]

2 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Agreed.  I guess there are two worthwhile purposes of flashback... one is to explore an untapped aspect of a main character, and another is to explore the backstory and do worldbuilding around a guest character.  In that case, one purpose was fulfilled.   Whereas in "Mother's Little Helper", neither was fulfilled.  Exploring Gideon's backstory was not a bad idea per se.  But that story they wrote for him was lame.

Flashbacks like The Milller's Daughter and Sympathy for the DeVil were fun to watch because they had entertainment value on their own. It wasn't just about relaying new information to the audience. Gideon's flashbacks were boring, regardless of whether or not we learned anything. Bleeding Through was the worst of everything because we learned nothing of value and it was as dull as watching paint dry.

Edited April 13, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Yes, entertainment factor is definitely important.  I guess I would characterize that as how the purpose is fulfilled.  Like the Cruella flashback developed her worldbuilding/backstory in a fun-to-watch way.  The charisma of the actors also have a lot to do with it.  I'm sure it was the actor who played Merlin and Nimue that elevated the "Nimue" backstory.  

[Mitch]

14 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

he writers wanted to expand world-hopping possibilities, but they had to come up with a solution for why Rumple could act so seemingly stupid. They came up with the prophecy chokehold. Because destiny said Cora's daughter would cast the Curse that would lead him to his son, nothing else mattered. The writers could come up with literally anything as some prophecy to clumsily patch up plot holes.

This is an example of the writers, who while making everything cartoony, choose to make some things overly complicated. In that instance all that was needed was for Blue/Regina/Rump to explain that the Curse was indeed so powerful that it punched a hole permanently between the magical realms and the LWOM ( I would say our world but now we know from a Twitter no less that Storybrooke is conveniently is another universe...convenient so the writers can throw in a dumb Hamilton joke..)and with Rump smuggling magic in, made realm hopping possible. But then that would take 30 seconds and the writers couldnt waste time on that dumb prophet woman and the predictions which went nowhere.

11 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Flashbacks like The Milller's Daughter and Sympathy for the DeVil were fun to watch because they had entertainment value on their own. It wasn't just about relaying new information to the audience. Gideon's flashbacks were boring, regardless of whether or not we learned anything. Bleeding Through was the worst of everything because we learned nothing of value and it was as dull as watching paint dry.

Indeed, but the Cora flashback was important as SHE was important to the whole point of the show  (her relationship with both Rump and Regina led to the Curse being cast..) Cruella's was just a fresh of breathe air as she is fun, for once we have a villain who is just a psycho (but still likeable for some reason) it had the S1 dark thing going (she killed her mother AND dogs , but it wasn't excused by a sob story) and it was great to get out of the same old kinda but kinda not medieval world and into the 1920s world..(the show should rely less on their really, really bad CGI and more on their casting, costuming and set design people as THOSE people rock that shit...)

Edited April 13, 2017 by Mitch

[KAOS Agent]

I'm curious as to when the ABC execs told the writers to wrap up the main stories by the end of S6. It's clear by comments from both Dungey and the showrunners that they were told to do so and then told to present their case for a S7 reboot. At the very least, they were told that cast budget would shrink and they would only be able to carry so many regulars into next season if it were to be green lit. It's hard to know with these writers whether they had no plans for wrapping things up and had to adjust accordingly or whether the current storyline was always their plan. I don't care if Josh and Ginny asked for reduced time or not, there was a way to give them a real role in the wrap up of their storyline, not sleep through half of the season. That they did not (and no, waking up now does not count) shows how very little forward planning went into a final season storyline by the writers. Regardless of how much the story meandered throughout the seasons, there should always have been a fairly solid plan for the Final Battle as it were and what we're getting seems very slapdash and haphazard. It almost seems like they were surprised that the stories were running out at the same time contracts were ending and this needed to happen. How could there not have been a plan for this?

This is not a procedural show like Castle where the end really can be tacked on (no matter how badly that was done). This show has always been more arc based and it floors me that professional writers wouldn't have been plotting how that final arc would work. Preplanning like that, even if it's just little thoughts building up over the years, should have benefited the storytelling massively in terms of coherency but somehow this season is the most uncoordinated, random one yet.

Edited April 13, 2017 by KAOS Agent

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

S1 was first and foremost a character drama, S2 onwards became more plot oriented (a variation of a story arc involving certain characters and locations, finding certain plot points, flashbacks, etc.).

S1 is a completely different show from every other season onward. While the writing quality overall was better in S1, I actually prefer the more plot-oriented approach for a few reasons. It's an open secret that A&E had plenty of help to get the first season off the ground and they made a lot of compromises. S2 onward rings truer to their innate style and artistic vision. It's what the characters were originally designed for. Plot-heavy storytelling isn't inherently bad, but the writers are framing it as the character drama it isn't. 

Edited April 13, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

9 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

S1 is a completely different show from every other season onward. While the writing quality overall was better in S1, I actually prefer the more plot-oriented approach for a few reasons.

I'm also one of the few who prefers the later seasons over Season 1. While the writing and structure of Season 1 was technically better and probably a better season overall, it still lacked that "it factor" to make it a show I obsessed about. I quit the show halfway through Season 1 for a while because I started to get tired of all the random detour episodes and the frustration over Emma not learning about magic and the lack of payoff for Graham's death. Season 2 and beyond, A&E restructured the show to focus more on the core cast and turned it into an adventure soap opera, and even though the writing took a turn for the worse, they included more elements that made me become the obsessed viewer I am today. Now if only they could write good scripts and keep the fun adventure formula going and I would gladly call this my favorite show instead of reluctantly admitting I hate-watch it.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I'm also one of the few who prefers the later seasons over Season 1. While the writing and structure of Season 1 was technically better and probably a better season overall, it still lacked that "it factor" to make it a show I obsessed about. I quit the show halfway through Season 1 for a while because I started to get tired of all the random detour episodes and the frustration over Emma not learning about magic and the lack of payoff for Graham's death.

I personally didn't care for the slower pace of S1. I know a lot of people have missed that, but imo it gets conflated with the better writing quality. It's been evident that the writers are fully capable of snail-speed garbage. While Emma taking forever to believe was organic, it wasn't satisfying to watch Regina repeatedly beat her down simply because she knew the game better. In the long run, huge chunks of S1 ending up meaning nothing because everyone forgot their cursed personalities, Graham's death was never addressed, Regina didn't get punished for her crimes, the MM/David/Kathryn drama had no ramifications, and no one obeyed real world laws after the curse broke. Other than introducing the characters and setting, S1 is one big long wait for the curse to break with some detours to fill the time.

In retrospect, I can totally see why A&E wanted to break the curse halfway through S1.

Quote

Season 2 and beyond, A&E restructured the show to focus more on the core cast and turned it into an adventure soap opera, and even though the writing took a turn for the worse, they included more elements that made me become the obsessed viewer I am today. Now if only they could write good scripts and keep the fun adventure formula going and I would gladly call this my favorite show instead of reluctantly admitting I hate-watch it.

I'm beginning to miss the format from S3-S5, actually. "Defeat and repeat" was more fun than S6. It got a little repetitive, but it was relatively stable. For the most part, you knew what you were getting. Now it's like, "What surprise retcon from hell am I getting this week?"

Edited April 13, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Mitch]

41 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I personally didn't care for the slower pace of S1. I know a lot of people have missed that, but imo it gets conflated with the better writing quality. It's been evident that the writers are fully capable of snail-speed garbage. While Emma taking forever to believe was organic, it wasn't satisfying to watch Regina repeatedly beat her down simply because she knew the game better. In the long run, huge chunks of S1 ending up meaning nothing because everyone forgot their cursed personalities, Graham's death was never addressed, Regina didn't get punished for her crimes, the MM/David/Kathryn drama had no ramifications, and no one obeyed real world laws after the curse broke. Other than introducing the characters and setting, S1 is one big long wait for the curse to break with some detours to fill the time.

In retrospect, I can totally see why A&E wanted to break the curse halfway through S1.

I'm beginning to miss the format from S3-S5, actually. "Defeat and repeat" was more fun than S6. It got a little repetitive, but it was relatively stable. For the most part, you knew what you were getting. Now it's like, "What surprise retcon from hell am I getting this week?"

I liked S1 not so much for the slow pace (and  I don't think it was THAT slow...there were a few duds like the annoying Grumpy and his fairy..) but that it was a better contrast between the "Real World" and the EF.  Scenery Chewing, bad CGI and idiot heroes and ineffectual villains get old if it is the whole show.  I think S1 was a great example of melding fantasy elements to a real world setting. I thought it was great that you could really believe that the EQ is now in our world, and Rump, and the Charmings as they acted like real people (as much as one can on a fantasy TV show) I also felt that Emma despite being in the dark, gave as good as she got from Regina..( I missed those days they hated each other...they have great chemistry but its antogonistic..not this watered down thing they have going now...) and Gold played them both.

And I agree, bad writing is bad writing, (the whole Kathryn framing plot is an example of S1 stinking to high heaven plot hole..) if its more character based or plot centric. I wanted to see Graham murder addressed and Regina being punished (Regina's redemption has never worked for me as she never suffered for it and I LIKE Regina's character..again, I felt more remorse and introspection from Regina during S1 then all the crying and woe is me...Mayor Mills would never cry!!!) I wanted the fall out of the breaking of the curse and the problems of that resolved before we went on goofy adventures in lands that a network TV series has no money to put on the screen. Its interesting that S1 isnt the two goofballs vision as it makes perfect sense..I think the show was a mess after that with running around that went no where and cartoon good and evil.

Im okay with the meet and defeat thing too, as long as they resolve the issues from S1 before they go there and we had villains who had clear motivations...and really good plans, which the good guys used their brains to deal with. And your right, this is "Stupid Retcon" season isn't it??

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I wanted to see Graham murder addressed and Regina being punished (Regina's redemption has never worked for me as she never suffered for it and I LIKE Regina's character..again, I felt more remorse and introspection from Regina during S1 then all the crying and woe is me...Mayor Mills would never cry!!!)

What's strange is that Regina's punishment was setup in the last arc of S1. Emma threatened her, she dreamed of being executed by the townspeople, Rumple told her the people would want "blood" after the curse broke, and it was all pushing to her desperation to keep it unbroken. We had one angry mob in the first episode of S2, then some disgruntled side characters like Whale and Leroy, but that was it until Cricket Game. After that, Regina never got persecuted for anything she did in S1. It was all new or artificial stuff, like the framing of Archie's murder or working for Cora. 

Quote

I liked S1 not so much for the slow pace (and  I don't think it was THAT slow...there were a few duds like the annoying Grumpy and his fairy..) but that it was a better contrast between the "Real World" and the EF.

This is an unpopular opinion, but I thought the realism in S1 was too heavy for what the show really was. I would prefer a mix of it with the magical shenanigans in the present day, sort of like a happy middle. 2A excelled at that. The realism put some limits and rules in the show's universe, which is why it appears so appealing now. If the magic system had some rules and the "Our World" element had any bearing, it would be better. But we wouldn't need to forgo all the fantasy stuff to do that. S1 was "all fantasy in flashbacks, all realism in the present", but that wouldn't service the show's format nowadays. Again, I would say, that's for the different show S1 was trying to be.

Edited April 13, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[oncebluethrone]

In all honesty, when I was first watching Season 1, I was just watching for the fun of it, not really thinking about why I enjoyed it. But once I started watching Season 2 and the show became more plot-oriented and the characters got to go on adventures and fight villains of the season, I realized that I enjoyed it more. Another reason why I like the later seasons better is because there is more of a connection between Storybrooke and the EF, than in Season 1. The connection in Season 1 was just that the characters were from there, but Season 2 onwards, the characters have both their EF and Storybrooke identities, plus characters from the EF and other realms who weren't swept up in the first curse came to Storybrooke. I enjoyed Season 1 because it was well-written and because the characters were compelling, but it is my least favorite. I loved the Snowing/EQ story and how the curse came to be, along with Emma's rivalry with Regina and the characters in general, but didn't like how long it took Emma to believe or the murder framing plot or Graham's death or how dragged out it seemed. However, my love for the parts I did enjoy far outweigh the parts I didn't like so I'm not sure it would be completely fair to call Season 1 my least favorite. But the funny thing is that the current season is my favorite and it is supposedly like Season 1, but in retrospect, it's more like a mishmash of all the seasons, which might be why I enjoy it so much.