The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why

[Amerilla]

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/jan/08/t2-trainspotting-robert-carlyle-begbie-interview

And Vancouver, while diligently praised, isn’t Glasgow. “It’s a lovely city. But culturally it is different, and I miss the craic. I’m at the stage where even though Britain is in a mess politically, I think it’s time to pack up and come home.”

"Craic" is the culture of news, gossip, fun, music, drinking. Dude's gotten homesick after all these years away.  

[kitticup]

If the show is ending, it might explain all the cons JMO is doing.  It gives her chance to strike while the iron is hot.  

[Souris]

Brigitte had to write her ep she was just assigned in 15 hours. That doesn't exactly inspire confidence they're on top of the story, does it? Or that it's going to be good. I'm sure they're scrambling and changing things left and right, since they have only a few eps to wrap up the story in a way that could serve as a series finale (if they bother to do that). Also it made her cry, of course.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Souris

[Free]

1 hour ago, Souris said:

Brigitte had to write her ep she was just assigned in 15 hours. That doesn't exactly inspire confidence they're on top of the story, does it? Or that it's going to be good. I'm sure they're scrambling and changing things left and right, since they have only a few eps to wrap up the story in a way that could serve as a series finale (if they bother to do that). Also it made her cry, of course.

Just 15 hours, that explains a lot.  They've done rewrites before, none of them ended well as usual.

[Rumsy4]

She doesn't say that she had to write an entire episode in 15 hours--only that she had a 15 hr work day so she could meet the "impossible" deadline. 

It could be a good thing if the writers are forcing themselves to wrap-up storylines. 

[KingOfHearts]

I don't understand how A&E could go back on exploring Will's story because "they just didn't have the time", when there's so many episodes that feel like meaningless filler. They can't complete dropped plots because we just have to see Regina and Emma run around Mirror World or the Count of Monte Cristo dying for no reason. This is why I'm not worried that they won't have sufficient warning for the series ending. They waste so much time on stuff no one cares about, that even if they only had two hours to wrap everything up, it's about all the concluding they could really do. We're not going to get a full season of dropped storylines getting tied up. We're just going to watch the main characters get their crap together with some cameos sprinkled here and there.

[Camera One]

Yes, they could have tackled some of the gazillion loose ends in Storybrooke instead of those pointless 6A stories.  Heck, doing so for Cinderella actually led to the only good episode in the half-season.  

And then wasting time on Robin Hood AGAIN even though they sent him to the forest to babysit for 5B and I don't even remember what he was doing in 5A?  What can they do with him now that they couldn't have done when he was alive?

Edited January 15, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

14 minutes ago, Camera One said:

And then wasting time on Robin Hood AGAIN even though they sent him to the forest to babysit for 5B and I don't even remember what he was doing in 5A?

This is what infuriates me about Robin's return. If it was a one-off episode, or alternately that he was coming back for good, I wouldn't mind so much. But what wish!Robin has to do with the original recipe Robin, who they stopped caring about past S3, is beyond me. 

Edited January 15, 2017 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

This is what infuriates me about Robin's return. If it was a one-off episode, or alternately that he was coming back for good, I wouldn't mind so much. But what wish!Robin has to do with the original recipe Robin, who they stopped caring about past S3, is beyond me. 

I wouldn't mind Robin coming back for good at all. Not that I miss him... like at all, but it would give Regina something to chew on that isn't angst. Whenever she was with him in S5, she was much more tolerable and less in your face. She had someone to go to. When all is said and done, I want Regina to have her "happy ending" so the show's validation of her whining isn't all for naught. I think it would be stupid if all the gain and loss for Outlaw Queen amounted to nothing. If all the other couples can go through hell and still come back, why can't they? 

Again, I'm not some big OQ shipper. It's a worse pairing than Rumpbelle because of how boring it is. However, I don't like wasting my time. I eventually accepted them as a couple, and I'm tired of Regina always "getting the short end of the stick" for no reason but REC and cheap angst. I still hate her, but I didn't stomach her arc to see her end up without her "happy ending". What is the point of drama if it doesn't go anywhere or get resolved?

Edited January 15, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I couldn't care less if Robin Hood is suddenly alive again because.  It's not like this show is some hard-hitting series with stakes, so stop pretending.  At least with Robin back, on paper, Regina can talk to him about all her problems instead of using up Emma and Snow's screentime (not that this happened when Robin Hood was alive, of course).  It's more exhausting to have Fake Robin Hood around temporarily and then watch the angst like we actually care.  I just wish there was a way to retool Robin Hood so he's not so completely devoid of any personality, but I'm afraid the ship has sailed on that one.  Has there ever been a series regular who has been so ill-defined?

Edited January 15, 2017 by Camera One

[Souris]

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

She doesn't say that she had to write an entire episode in 15 hours--only that she had a 15 hr work day so she could meet the "impossible" deadline. 

It could be a good thing if the writers are forcing themselves to wrap-up storylines. 

She posted the day before about just starting writing the ep, then after 15 hours of writing, she posted the "end episode" pic. That implies she wrote an ep in 15 hours to me.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Has there ever been a series regular who has been so ill-defined?

Will, if you don't count Once Upon a Time in Wonderland.

[Shanna Marie]

The return of Robin strikes me as having far more to do with writer stuff than with anything the story required. I don't know that there was a huge outcry for Robin's return, but there was a fair amount of criticism for how he was written out, from the actor and from fans. So, did the notoriously thin-skinned writers scramble to try to deflect the criticism and make everyone like them again? And/or was it a case of them regretting one of their "wouldn't it be cool?" impulsive decisions. Wouldn't it be cool to have a big, dramatic death scene that would excuse Regina going evil (at least by splitting), but then once he was dead they kind of missed having the character to work with (or felt bad for Regina)?

Whatever it is, it doesn't seem like the sort of thing that would have been planned from the start when they killed Robin, and it doesn't seem like his return can possibly really add anything to the story, since there wasn't any real unfinished business with him and the character and his relationship with Regina were always so vague and undefined. It's more like something someone in production wanted.

[Rumsy4]

50 minutes ago, Souris said:

She posted the day before about just starting writing the ep, then after 15 hours of writing, she posted the "end episode" pic. That implies she wrote an ep in 15 hours to me.

Maybe she finished one and started another right away. In the first tweet she says "Day One of writing... already crying. It's going to be a long two weeks". Who knows... Also, why is she always crying? lol

Edited January 16, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

I guess it's appropriate that the real-life timeline for these writers is just as quizzical as the ones on the show.  On Jan 13 at 4:30pm, she wrote "Finding out you get one more chance to write a script for Season 6 of OUAT", with a screenshot of the start of the document.  One more chance?  Huh?  Yet the next day, Jan 14, is "Day One of Writing".  First full day?  So this is at 2pm.   Already crying?  About what?  Is the flashback about someone forgetting Regina's birthday?  Or is from the pain of typing "We need to save Agrabah" for the 115th time this hour?  She forsees "a long two weeks".  11pm of the same day was when she posted the End Episode, and exclaimed that she wrote for 15 hours.  Was she told Jan 14 that she had to submit a first draft at the end of the day?  Was she writing on the night of Jan 13 too?  And is it wise to complain publicly on Twitter that a deadline is "impossible"?  

I do feel for her, though... it is so exhausting to work non-stop the night before something is due... been there, done that, many times.  

With 2 writers teaming up, though, maybe she was writing half an episode.

Edited January 16, 2017 by Camera One

[Souris]

I kind of wonder if they'd go so far as to have two scripts written for the finale, depending on whether they hear about renewal before it films. There is not a lot of time at all between Once's return and when finale filming would start. A week to two.

[Camera One]

They won't need a full script.  If it's a series finale, they would need the last 3.5 minutes to re-enact the music video for Sister Sledge's "We Are Family" with everyone joining hands and dancing around Regina, Rumple, Gideon, The Black Fairy, a revived Cora, etc. at Granny's.

Edited January 16, 2017 by Camera One

[sharky]

1 hour ago, Souris said:

I kind of wonder if they'd go so far as to have two scripts written for the finale, depending on whether they hear about renewal before it films. There is not a lot of time at all between Once's return and when finale filming would start. A week to two.

While I don't think it would go as far as @Camera One took it, I can see them having two endings filmed based on renewal, similar to what they did with Castle. Although perhaps maybe a bit more thought out -- ABC got quite a bit of flack for the crap series finale for that one.

I can see Brigitte's tweets going a few ways. Either these are two different scripts that Brigitte is talking about or this is one script -- both options would make sense. If this is one script, and based on Channing's talk about A&E pitching to her, I wonder if an episode had to be rewritten or will have to be inserted based on the new idea they pitched to Channing.

Again, I don't know if this necessarily means they're wrapping up the story for a series finale. As has been speculated elsewhere on this board, there's also the possibility of a reset for next season that could involve ditching cast members to cut costs and allow the show to move on indefinitely or for at least one final season. If Channing told them to pitch her for the rest of the season based on cutting costs, I could see a drastic change in the upcoming story without having it be a series finale. Perhaps they have to kill off expensive actors in an episode before the finale. That would explain why Brigitte would have to write a quick episode like that -- based on an outline by A&E -- with A&E themselves writing the season finale after that to set up season 7.

Of course, I'm also the optimist among pessimists, I know, but again, having to write a script in 15 hours doesn't automatically mean the show has been cancelled.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

While I don't think it would go as far as @CAMERA ONE took it, I can see them having two endings filmed based on renewal, similar to what they did with Castle. Although perhaps maybe a bit more thought out -- ABC got quite a bit of flack for the crap series finale for that one.

Not really related, but A&E said they filmed another ending scene for 3B before they were approved for Frozen. They never divulged what it was because they said they "might use it in the future". It would have been in place of the Elsa scene. I've wondered for the longest time what it could have been. I'm not sure if they've used the idea yet or not.

Edit: Oh, here's the exact quotes regarding the scene:

Quote

“It’s something we’re probably going to want to use [later],” says Horowitz.

“It’s another iconic Disney totem,” hints Kitsis. “We’ll leave it at that.”

Edited January 16, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Interesting... it was probably someone else brought back with the urn, since that could easily replace the final scene.  Maybe they would have done one of the Queens of Darkness for 4A if they didn't get "Frozen" (eg. Cruella coming out of the urn, or its essence going into the library basement and "waking up" Maleficent).  Or perhaps because Will was brought in for Season 4, maybe they considered a cliffhanger which would have related to him (eg. Jafar).

[Shanna Marie]

On another note, I've been thinking about something in regards to the writing and the declining ratings, and had my feelings reinforced by something else I saw today. There's a tendency for just about all TV shows to go darker over time. No matter how light and fluffy a drama starts out, it tends to veer into darkness toward the end of the run (and may be what causes the end of the run). I think one reason is that going dark is the quick and easy way to level up or delve into characters. If the show's been running a few seasons, then you need to find new challenges for the heroes, and making it really personal for the heroes is the easy way to do that (think about just about every procedural that's ended up having a serial killer targeting one of the protagonists). Or if you really want to explore the depths of a character, psychologically (or physically) torturing the character is an easy way. Then there's the fact that even though good comedy is more difficult to write, darkness is what gets taken more seriously, so writers of lighter shows who crave recognition tend to veer into darkness. You even see that with sitcoms, where they do the serious "very special" episodes as awards bait, with the ironic result that the award for best comedy series tends to go to the show with the best serious episode. Actors like it when things go dark with their characters because it's easier to play in a showy way. Playing a character who's becoming really good isn't as meaty as playing a character who's struggling with darkness. And fans tend to praise darkness, up to a point. "Hurt/comfort" is one of the more common fanfic categories. Fan writers spend a lot of time psychologically and physically torturing the characters. The first dip into darkness will probably get a lot of praise.

What I mean by "darkness" is psychological or physical torture of the protagonists -- horrible things happening to the heroes, and without any real catharsis or payoff to it, sometimes in a character assassinating way. While the stuff going on with Graham in season one was pretty dark, he wasn't really our viewpoint character. Bad things weren't really happening to Emma. The show didn't really wallow in what was going on with him. We didn't know what was going on with him until the episode in which he died. We didn't have to spend half a season knowing he was Regina's helpless sex slave. And we got some emotional payoff because we saw Emma's reaction to his death and Henry's response. That's different from season five, in which we spent an entire arc with Emma being the Dark One, having voices in her head urging her to be evil, being criticized by her family for everything she did, not being able to sleep, being criticized and taunted by Nimue, then having all the stuff that happened to Hook, and having to kill Hook, but with barely any chance to deal with his death.

Some shows are capable of handling the darkness without going off the rails, using it to add some depth, but keeping the main tone of the show intact, with humor or whimsy that were there to begin with and allowing the darkness to lead into emotion. A lot of TV writers forget the "Comfort" part of the H/C stuff fans like. There may be some pure sadists, but the main fan appeal of H/C is that the hurt leads to comfort, with characters working through things together. TV writers may not be able to spend as much time as fan writers do on the aftermath and emotional bonding, but they need to remember the need for at least a little bit. I doubt many fan writers would have Hook spend multiple episodes being tormented by Rumple forcing him to do things he hated and then nearly be killed, with Emma watching, only to have Emma run off to check on Regina in the immediate aftermath. Or show Hook being physically tortured only to be healed with a wave of a hand before they lurch straight into another plot, with never another mention of what he went through.

And that's why shows tend to lose viewers after they go that dark, if it's not handled well and it's not in the show's DNA. I have one friend who quit watching last season because she used this show as a way to cope with the Sunday-night dreads, and it didn't help when she had to watch Emma being psychologically tortured as the Dark One. It's just not that much fun anymore. If you didn't read interviews or Twitter, you'd never guess that this was a show about hope. We've got thin-skinned writers desperate for recognition who don't have the chops to pull off darkness, so they went dark and lost their audience.

[Free]

58 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

On another note, I've been thinking about something in regards to the writing and the declining ratings, and had my feelings reinforced by something else I saw today. There's a tendency for just about all TV shows to go darker over time. No matter how light and fluffy a drama starts out, it tends to veer into darkness toward the end of the run (and may be what causes the end of the run). I think one reason is that going dark is the quick and easy way to level up or delve into characters. If the show's been running a few seasons, then you need to find new challenges for the heroes, and making it really personal for the heroes is the easy way to do that (think about just about every procedural that's ended up having a serial killer targeting one of the protagonists). Or if you really want to explore the depths of a character, psychologically (or physically) torturing the character is an easy way. Then there's the fact that even though good comedy is more difficult to write, darkness is what gets taken more seriously, so writers of lighter shows who crave recognition tend to veer into darkness. You even see that with sitcoms, where they do the serious "very special" episodes as awards bait, with the ironic result that the award for best comedy series tends to go to the show with the best serious episode. Actors like it when things go dark with their characters because it's easier to play in a showy way. Playing a character who's becoming really good isn't as meaty as playing a character who's struggling with darkness. And fans tend to praise darkness, up to a point. "Hurt/comfort" is one of the more common fanfic categories. Fan writers spend a lot of time psychologically and physically torturing the characters. The first dip into darkness will probably get a lot of praise.

What I mean by "darkness" is psychological or physical torture of the protagonists -- horrible things happening to the heroes, and without any real catharsis or payoff to it, sometimes in a character assassinating way. While the stuff going on with Graham in season one was pretty dark, he wasn't really our viewpoint character. Bad things weren't really happening to Emma. The show didn't really wallow in what was going on with him. We didn't know what was going on with him until the episode in which he died. We didn't have to spend half a season knowing he was Regina's helpless sex slave. And we got some emotional payoff because we saw Emma's reaction to his death and Henry's response. That's different from season five, in which we spent an entire arc with Emma being the Dark One, having voices in her head urging her to be evil, being criticized by her family for everything she did, not being able to sleep, being criticized and taunted by Nimue, then having all the stuff that happened to Hook, and having to kill Hook, but with barely any chance to deal with his death.

Some shows are capable of handling the darkness without going off the rails, using it to add some depth, but keeping the main tone of the show intact, with humor or whimsy that were there to begin with and allowing the darkness to lead into emotion. A lot of TV writers forget the "Comfort" part of the H/C stuff fans like. There may be some pure sadists, but the main fan appeal of H/C is that the hurt leads to comfort, with characters working through things together. TV writers may not be able to spend as much time as fan writers do on the aftermath and emotional bonding, but they need to remember the need for at least a little bit. I doubt many fan writers would have Hook spend multiple episodes being tormented by Rumple forcing him to do things he hated and then nearly be killed, with Emma watching, only to have Emma run off to check on Regina in the immediate aftermath. Or show Hook being physically tortured only to be healed with a wave of a hand before they lurch straight into another plot, with never another mention of what he went through.

And that's why shows tend to lose viewers after they go that dark, if it's not handled well and it's not in the show's DNA. I have one friend who quit watching last season because she used this show as a way to cope with the Sunday-night dreads, and it didn't help when she had to watch Emma being psychologically tortured as the Dark One. It's just not that much fun anymore. If you didn't read interviews or Twitter, you'd never guess that this was a show about hope. We've got thin-skinned writers desperate for recognition who don't have the chops to pull off darkness, so they went dark and lost their audience.

Agreed, the whole appeal was that it was a mostly light hearted show featuring Disney/fairy tale characters.

[Shanna Marie]

This article about plot twists doesn't mention Once (it's more about Sherlock, but does address Lost), but it might as well be about this series. Some key quotes:

Quote

 

There’s nothing more satisfying than being taken off guard by a plot twist only to find that the story now actually makes more sense. Things I had half noticed but not processed suddenly become telling—they might even have been clues I might have grasped if I’d known how to read them, and as we move to the end of the story everything seems clearer, sharper and more intense because it has morphed unexpectedly but coherently into something I hadn’t seen coming.

And then there’s Sherlock. Or Doctor Who. Or any number of other non-Moffat books and TV shows where the delight in twists seems an end in itself. “They won’t see this coming!” you can sense the writers crowing gleefully as they draft in assassin wives and maximum security prisons (which somehow aren’t) and characters returning from the dead, all justified by a scattering of faux science, a little psychosis, and (most importantly) some swift transitions which go by so fast that you aren’t supposed to have time to sit up and say “excuse me?”

 

Is this ringing any bells? I do love the twists that make things make more sense, that make you want to go back and rewatch. I'm trying to recall if this show has done any that good.

Quote

too much narrative art seems to think that it doesn’t matter if the whole doesn’t make sense so long as the moment-to-moment stuff keeps us on the edge of our seats. It does matter, if only because if we realize that the solutions and revelations don’t really stand up to scrutiny, then what’s the point of watching at all? The twist in a tale can be potent when it’s earned and part of a larger narrative design, but when it’s just a flash bomb, a distraction from the lack of substance in the story, it derails the whole plot

I think that's exactly the problem, that the twists aren't earned, aren't part of a larger narrative design, so they're just a flash bomb, a "wouldn't it be cool" moment. And worse, the writers are so focused on the twists, so determined that the audience won't see it coming, that they neglect to actually set it up, so it comes out of the blue. Then, so many of these shocking twists are subsequently forgotten, so they have no actual impact on the plot. They're just there to shock. Like the eggnapping. They didn't even use the fact that Emma had all her darkness removed when she became the Dark One. It was just something to add a shocking twist and woobify Maleficent.

On another note, that 15 hours to write a script thing is really puzzling me. TV is on a pretty strict schedule, so there shouldn't be a lot of surprises. You know when an episode is going into production, so you know when the script has to be written. It would be kind of odd to broadcast publicly that you've screwed around and are now having to write your script at the last minute or that the person with the script ahead of you was late and you needed their script to write yours. Which means something else has to be going on. It could be a shift in the production schedule -- moving the filming around because of actor or location availability, or there's some more serious effects-type work that has to be done in advance and needs a complete script. Otherwise, it could suggest that the network suddenly wanted to see the rest of the scripts for the season for making a renew/cancel decision, or something went wrong up the line -- she wasn't able to write her episode because an earlier episode hers was based on was being rewritten at the last minute and she couldn't start until later. Or possibly a planned episode up the line was being cut, with the important plot elements shifted into other episodes, and hers suddenly came up sooner, which might be something that happens if they know they're being cancelled and need to suddenly wrap everything up. They might drop any one-offs that aren't totally essential in order to devote the time they have to resolution. All pure speculation, of course.

[Souris]

It definitely sounded like she just found out she was assigned that ep she had to turn around quickly.

[Camera One]

9 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I think that's exactly the problem, that the twists aren't earned, aren't part of a larger narrative design, so they're just a flash bomb, a "wouldn't it be cool" moment. And worse, the writers are so focused on the twists, so determined that the audience won't see it coming, that they neglect to actually set it up, so it comes out of the blue. Then, so many of these shocking twists are subsequently forgotten, so they have no actual impact on the plot.

Those paragraphs describe "Once" to the letter.  It's disappointing that this problem is so prevalent.  I haven't watched "Sherlock" or "Dr. Who" but I had heard good things about them, so I assumed the writing quality was better.

----

In other news...

Brigitte Hales ‏@InkTankGirl  Jan 17

Day 7: Writing a Zelena scene in my office when @bexmader burst thru my door in full Z mode and said, "I wouldn't say that!" #101smiles

[Rumsy4]

The final episode of Sherlock was practically incoherent. It was one big Plot Twist.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

11 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

This article about plot twists doesn't mention Once (it's more about Sherlock, but does address Lost), but it might as well be about this series. Some key quotes:

Quote

There’s nothing more satisfying than being taken off guard by a plot twist only to find that the story now actually makes more sense. Things I had half noticed but not processed suddenly become telling—they might even have been clues I might have grasped if I’d known how to read them, and as we move to the end of the story everything seems clearer, sharper and more intense because it has morphed unexpectedly but coherently into something I hadn’t seen coming.

Is this ringing any bells? I do love the twists that make things make more sense, that make you want to go back and rewatch. I'm trying to recall if this show has done any that good.

If this show has done that, it hasn't been in many seasons.  If the writers really want to see how it's done - and done well - they should watch the "White Bear" episode of Black Mirror on Netflix.  As far as plot twists go, imo that was practically perfect.  

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

The final episode of Sherlock was practically incoherent. It was one big Plot Twist.

Oh, yes. Without giving spoilers, it was such a Once thing to do.

Quote

Day 7: Writing a Zelena scene in my office when @bexmader burst thru my door in full Z mode and said, "I wouldn't say that!" #101smiles

Bex is awesome.

Edited January 19, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

The one surprise twist on this show that I think was really good was that revelation that "Prince Charming" was actually the twin brother of the prince, who'd been secretly bought/adopted by the king, and now the farmboy twin was having to pose as his brother. It was such a huge shock when we saw the person we thought was Charming being a total jerk, but I figured at first that we were going to see him getting a comeuppance and learning a valuable lesson that made him the man we know today, and then it was a bigger shock when he was abruptly killed. After that episode, I wanted to rewatch "Snow Falls" because it put everything in a totally different context, knowing that the prince had only just become a prince, so the valuables stolen from him were truly valuable to him, and the princess wasn't just a bitch but was mourning someone and forced to marry this stranger (it was a nice little twist later when she turned out to be pretty cool). But that was so early in the run that it had to have been planned in advance and was always part of his character (though I wouldn't be surprised if they hadn't told Josh he wasn't really a prince before that), which kept it from being a terrible retcon.

Since then, we kind of have to grade on a curve. I think the "Snow cast Curse 2" twist could have been really clever if it had been executed better and done in a way that wasn't so obviously tearing down the heroes to show they're just like the villains. But for that to have been a cool twist, we maybe needed some clues in the present that would allow you to rewatch and realize what was really going on and there needed to be more setup in the flashbacks, so that we saw them actually trying lots of other stuff so that this was a desperation move instead of just an "oh well," and they needed to have at least mentioned a plan for finding Emma and getting her memories back or getting her to believe in them before Zelena wiped their memories. As it was, Zelena's memory spell didn't really change much of anything other than them not remembering what they needed Emma to do. They'd have tried to find Emma anyway (I hope), but they didn't even have anything figured out that Zelena erased. And then there was the problem that it was all about the Shocking!Twist! but the twist ended up not mattering at all to the story, since Emma contributed nothing to the resolution, so the actions that led to the twist were pointless, and they didn't even bother letting the characters realize that so that it became an ironic twist.

Otherwise, I think "Hook was a Dark One all this time" was kind of good. There were a few clues you could look back at, so it was interesting to rewatch with that knowledge. The problem was that there were too many red herrings thrown in that were actually contradictory and done just for momentary shock, like Dark Emma's "you did something terrible and failed me" routine or her trying to entice Hook into accepting her the way she was. Then there were the things that didn't make sense, like Hook not knowing what he was just because his memory had been wiped. Wouldn't the Dark One entity still know what it was? Did the memory spell also affect Head Rumple and Head Nimue? Didn't they say that they didn't tell Colin until late in the game, but he'd figured it out by then? Or was it that they told him, even though Hook didn't know, and they didn't tell Jen, even though Emma knew? I just remember that there was something odd about who they told what and when. Even so, I think Colin's performance is part of what made that twist work because he was playing it like Hook was just utterly emotionally fried, so you could buy that he wasn't sleeping, but was interpreting that as being because he was so upset about Emma and didn't realize it was because as a Dark One he didn't need to sleep. You could interpret the way he was acting both ways, so it made sense when you didn't know what was going on, and then it had a different meaning when you did. Though the fact that he flipped so quickly once he learned then didn't make sense because he was able to be so good when he didn't know that you'd think he'd have resisted better. Or you'd think that when he didn't know, that would have made him easier to manipulate by the Darkness, while when he knew he would have known to resist. It comes across like they didn't put much more thought into it than "wouldn't it be cool if Hook was a Dark One all this time?" and the way it's written, I could easily believe that they didn't actually come up with it until a few episodes into the season -- like they hadn't come up with that when they wrote the scene where they all returned to Granny's six weeks later and Dark Emma seemed really pissed at them, and that part of the arc was a retcon to try to figure out what had gone wrong.

[Free]

^My problem with 5a was that it all went nowhere, the writers completely neutered the threat of the Dark Ones immediate and it didn't help that they stood around and did nothing and in the end, it just looped back into Rumple being an evil caricature all over again.  Even when Emma was the DO, she spent most of the time sitting in a corner crying and making dreamcatchers.

[KingOfHearts]

7 minutes ago, Free said:

^My problem with 5a was that it all went nowhere, the writers completely neutered the threat of the Dark Ones immediate and it didn't help that they stood around and did nothing and in the end, it just looped back into Rumple being an evil caricature all over again.  Even when Emma was the DO, she spent most of the time sitting in a corner crying and making dreamcatchers.

Emma had many reasons to struggle with darkness and the show didn't utilize any of them. Clippy!Rumple didn't tempt her in any believable way. She actually took a page out of her parents' book. She put darkness into a person against their will and lied about it. In 4B, she was so ticked at her parents about the eggnapping thing, but shortly after she made her own questionable decision in a similar vein. The writers created their own monster instead of using what had already been setup for Emma across multiple seasons. She is someone who is always punished for doing the right thing, yet she didn't waver at all as the Dark One. That wasn't very human, imo. That's a bit too Jesus-like.

Edited January 19, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

27 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

The writers created their own monster instead of using what had already been setup for Emma across multiple seasons. She is someone who is always punished for doing the right thing, yet she didn't waver at all as the Dark One. That wasn't very human, imo. That's a bit too Jesus-like.

Well, this is a character who's become such good friends with the person who's the reason her life was a mess and who tried to murder her that she puts her friend's happiness ahead of her own and that of the other people she cares about, so Emma's never very human. But the eggnapping set them up for something that could have worked with the Dark One stuff. Did the fact that she had no inherent darkness of her own make it easier for her to manage being the Dark One because it didn't have any darkness to work with? Why was this never mentioned? (I mean, other than the writers realizing what a big screwup that was and pretending it never happened, or else them being all "squirrel!" and forgetting what they wrote the previous season.) The lack of darkness could explain a lot about what Emma does. With no darkness at all, she should be kind of Jesus-like. Except that didn't fit with what we'd seen of Emma up to that point, and they threw in the "but she could still develop darkness" which made it pointless. And was Lily really dark or just unlucky? She had bad taste in friends, but was she really dark? If she had double darkness, shouldn't she have been more like the Evil Queen? It's like the way they can't seem to decide what splitting the darkness into its own entity really means -- with Jekyll and Hyde it was more like splitting weakness and strength, but with Regina, splitting gives us the Evil Queen without changing Regina at all. And then Jekyll turned out to be as bad as Hyde.

For writers who have darkness vs. goodness as a major theme underlying their entire series, they don't seem to have put much thought into what that actually means or how it works in their universe.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Well, this is a character who's become such good friends with the person who's the reason her life was a mess and who tried to murder her that she puts her friend's happiness ahead of her own and that of the other people she cares about, so Emma's never very human.

Which is ironic, because her character is meant to be the most "human" and realistic of the lineup. She's supposed to insert the moral grayness of the real world and bring the show down to earth. Ever since 4A, she has totally lost that. She's not much different from everyone else. The writers forced her to agree with the EF folks more to show she had "character development" and accepted her heritage. Along the way, she stopped bringing her own unique take to the table.

Edited January 19, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Free]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

Emma had many reasons to struggle with darkness and the show didn't utilize any of them. Clippy!Rumple didn't tempt her in any believable way. She actually took a page out of her parents' book. She put darkness into a person against their will and lied about it. In 4B, she was so ticked at her parents about the eggnapping thing, but shortly after she made her own questionable decision in a similar vein. The writers created their own monster instead of using what had already been setup for Emma across multiple seasons. She is someone who is always punished for doing the right thing, yet she didn't waver at all as the Dark One. That wasn't very human, imo. That's a bit too Jesus-like.

Exactly, it was supposed to be about her struggles.

36 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Which is ironic, because her character is meant to be the most "human" and realistic of the lineup. She's supposed to insert the moral grayness of the real world and bring the show down to earth. Ever since 4A, she has totally lost that. She's not much different from everyone else. The writers forced her to agree with the EF folks more to show she had "character development" and accepted her heritage. Along the way, she stopped bringing her own unique take to the table.

Agreed, this was supposed to be a character that was supposed to bring her own pov from the real world in contrast to the fairy tale characters.

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

Which is ironic, because her character is meant to be the most "human" and realistic of the lineup. She's supposed to insert the moral grayness of the real world and bring the show down to earth. Ever since 4A, she has totally lost that. She's not much different from everyone else. The writers forced her to agree with the EF folks more to show she had "character development" and accepted her heritage.

I think a lot of that was the Regina Exception Clause at work, and the writers pulling strings to make the characters do what they wanted without sufficiently motivating that so that the characters as they were established would do that. I could kind of maybe buy that Snow White the fairy tale princess who talks to birds and chirps a lot about hope and faith might be willing to be friends with her evil stepmother who murdered her father, tried to murder her, stole her throne, and cursed her, separating her from her daughter because she's supposed to be weird and unrealistic, in a way (okay, I don't really buy it, but if it's going to happen, it needs to be treated as something only a Disney princess would do). Emma as she was established in the first season and a half wouldn't be so cool about it. She'd think her mother was insane to trust Regina and would be keeping a suspicious eye on Regina to make sure she wasn't pulling a long game to try to get her revenge. If you remove the Regina part, Emma's still reasonably down to earth and has some good "seriously?" moments. Oddly, Hook seems to be the most down-to-earth, realistic character right now, even though he's from the same world as the other fairy tale characters and spent most of his life in Neverland. He's most likely to look askance at some of the more bizarre decisions.

[Camera One]

 I could kind of maybe buy that Snow White the fairy tale princess who talks to birds and chirps a lot about hope and faith might be willing to be friends with her evil stepmother who murdered her father, tried to murder her, stole her throne, and cursed her, separating her from her daughter because she's supposed to be weird and unrealistic, in a way (okay, I don't really buy it, but if it's going to happen, it needs to be treated as something only a Disney princess would do).

I don't buy it either, since it contradicts the defiant, strong and angry Snow we saw in the opening sequence of the series. 

[Free]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

 

I don't buy it either, since it contradicts the defiant, strong and angry Snow we saw in the opening sequence of the series. 

In fact, it defeats the whole purpose of having her being a skilled archer who was able to evade the EQ while being on the run all that time.

[ParadoxLost]

I think that the major problem is that they didn't have the characterizations nailed down.

They should have clearly delineated in their minds the fairy tale personalities, the cursed personalities and how they related to Regina's motives, and how they would integrate the separate personalities (or not) post curse.

I think that Hook is the most realistic and consistent character because he didn't have a cursed peronality to confuse A&E.  I don't think they can keep it straight with everyone else.  We had Bandit Snow and MM and then all of a sudden Snow started acting like MM in flashbacks.  Sadly MM didn't often act like Bandit Snow in Storybrooke.

I think it was also a huge mistake to give Emma magic.  For lack of a better comparison, she needed to be Alice in Wonderland.  Someone from the "real" world reacting to the fairy tales.

Edited January 21, 2017 by ParadoxLost

[Camera One]

That's really well put.  The other thing is it's just generally easier to write for a character like Hook, because his character "journey" is clearcut, towards redemption and the demons that he must wrestle with are very obvious.  With someone like Snow, clearly, the Writers still have no idea what her character journey or character growth entails, thus the constant flip-flopping between hope and despair, MM and Bandit Snow, etc.  Even when a character has a "journey" like Emma and WALLS, they don't know what to do with the character once they have overcome their issue, so they backpedal and repeat the journey over and over again until the character has been run over about half a dozen times.  With the villains like Regina and Rumple, they're in love with two polarizing characterizations.  They love woe-is-me Regina, but they also love Mass Murderer Evil Queen.  They love poor wumple with a heart of gold that Belle can melt, but they also love sparkly imp and when the stars-in-the-hat-align Machiavellian Gold.  

[Mitch]

On 1/15/2017 at 11:05 PM, Free said:

Agreed, the whole appeal was that it was a mostly light hearted show featuring Disney/fairy tale characters.

 I disagree here...I think the show was best in S1 when it was darker and more "adult." but it actually had more of a solid "moral." viewpoint in its storytelling..Regina and Gold were definately bad, and their actions were shown as such..but they showed more conflicting emotions in S1 and they had Emma who called them out. Emma showed more shades of grey then she has now when she is the Super Duperest Most Heroic thing ever. Snow and Charming, cursed embarked on an "affair" and showed remorse for what they did..they acted human, and now they are just Super Duper people spouting about Hope but doing nothing to ensure the safety of their family and their community. Its enough that they are "heroes." in title alone.  A "dark" show is only truly dark when it shows that there are moral questions in the world,  and not just "heroes" and "villains."  The show since S1 has become a silly lighthearted show to market Disney characters but amazingly at the same time it lost its moral center. There is no right or wrong or ambiguity (which made me actually love the Regina character, Mayor Mills was a villain but they wrote her and Parrilla played her as someone with regrets though she would try not to show it, the same with Gold..he seemed tired and beaten and a bit sad even while he did really bad things, like threaten nuns...now they are full on cartoon, either good or bad..Regina whining yet not ever saying she was sorry to her hundreds of victims...Rump practically cackling in his latest dumb scheme for power.

On the surface it all lighthearted and sunny, yet scratch the surface and its just empty...that wasnt the case in S1.

[Free]

6 hours ago, Mitch said:

 I disagree here...I think the show was best in S1 when it was darker and more "adult." but it actually had more of a solid "moral." viewpoint in its storytelling..Regina and Gold were definately bad, and their actions were shown as such..but they showed more conflicting emotions in S1 and they had Emma who called them out. Emma showed more shades of grey then she has now when she is the Super Duperest Most Heroic thing ever. Snow and Charming, cursed embarked on an "affair" and showed remorse for what they did..they acted human, and now they are just Super Duper people spouting about Hope but doing nothing to ensure the safety of their family and their community. Its enough that they are "heroes." in title alone.  A "dark" show is only truly dark when it shows that there are moral questions in the world,  and not just "heroes" and "villains."  The show since S1 has become a silly lighthearted show to market Disney characters but amazingly at the same time it lost its moral center. There is no right or wrong or ambiguity (which made me actually love the Regina character, Mayor Mills was a villain but they wrote her and Parrilla played her as someone with regrets though she would try not to show it, the same with Gold..he seemed tired and beaten and a bit sad even while he did really bad things, like threaten nuns...now they are full on cartoon, either good or bad..Regina whining yet not ever saying she was sorry to her hundreds of victims...Rump practically cackling in his latest dumb scheme for power.

On the surface it all lighthearted and sunny, yet scratch the surface and its just empty...that wasnt the case in S1.

I wouldn't say more adult, but it was more grounded.  S1 was more character driven, more depth, there was a more community feel to it, instead of the same core characters going around doing basically the same variation each arc.

It wasn't that dark comparatively speaking, but there was actual tension to it.  For the most part, OuaT has been fairly predictable and even then the 'twists' don't seem to make things any better.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Free

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

It wasn't that dark comparatively speaking, but there was actual tension to it.  For the most part, OuaT has been fairly predictable and even then the 'twists' don't seem to make things any better.

It just dealt with serious issues in a more adult way. There's still murder and rape closer to the present, but in S1, these things had consequences and emotional weight tied to them. There were criminal investigations, custody battles, etc. It seemed more "mature", but the lighthearted stuff was still in there. I would venture to say it was more lighthearted and upbeat than later seasons at some points.

Edited January 20, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[ParadoxLost]

3 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

It just dealt with serious issues in a more adult way. There's still murder and rape closer to the present, but in S1, these things had consequences and emotional weight tied to them. There were criminal investigations, custody battles, etc. It seemed more "mature", but the lighthearted stuff was still in there. I would venture to say it was more lighthearted and upbeat than later seasons at some points.

I've always described this this way.

In season 1 they were exploring the original fairy tales from literature.

Then they listened to some focus group over the Summer and retooled the show to explore the rides at Disney World.

[andromeda331]

19 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

I've always described this this way.

In season 1 they were exploring the original fairy tales from literature.

Then they listened to some focus group over the Summer and retooled the show to explore the rides at Disney World.

So that's who's to blame? The focus group. Thanks a lot focus group. Or maybe not. Its hard to tell maybe it was like Charlie Brown's teacher A&E only heard blah, blah, Regina, blah, blah, blah and assumed everyone was cool with their vision of all about Regina. Or the focus group saying bad things about Regina. Like wow she's really evil,  I can't wait to see her get her comeuppance in season two for what she did to Snow, to Emma, to everyone. And every word was like a stab to the heart. They had no choice but to try and make the fans see how Regina was the victim. They vowed right then and there to make sure everyone knew Regina was the victim. With every stroke of their pen. Look see Regina cries! Look see Regina's mommy is mean! Look see Regina sad, she's not invited to dinner look how mean everyone is to her, look Regina's been falsely accused of murder! No, your not suppose to remember she did the same thing to Snow back and season one. Besides that was for love and revenge. That's different. Look Snow killed her mother! No, your not suppose to think Snow was right or simply trying to stop a psycho from becoming the Dark One, only what it did to Regina. When she's slaughtering villages in the past she's just being sassy. Your suppose to see Regina bravely stopping the failsafe at the cost of her own life and ignore the part where Regina planned to do the same thing.

[Camera One]

You hit the nail on the head.  The Twitter conversations and interviews from A, E, J, etc. really reinforces that they operate on This is what you're SUPPOSED to think/feel, this is what you're SUPPOSED to care about.  You're not supposed to care about Charlotte, or Johanna, or Aunt Em, or the village massacre victims for more than 5 minutes, so neither do the characters!

[Shanna Marie]

I really doubt that the change in direction came from a focus group, since season one was considered a big success and then ratings tanked in season two. If they'd done a deliberate change in direction due to focus group feedback, you'd think they'd have course corrected rapidly rather than go on in that direction. What I suspect happened was the writers lost their adult supervision after season one. I've only been involved with one TV series pitch that didn't go very far, but from what I learned from the people I was dealing with and my agent, there's a lot of input from other people in a first season. You start with a pitch of the concept to production companies, talking about the main characters, the premise, what will happen in the pilot, the major season one arcs, and some ideas for future seasons. If the production company decides to give it a go, they'll order a pilot script, but often with requirements of what they want to see -- make the main character a cop instead of a reporter, add a romantic subplot, make the villain a man instead of a woman, get rid of the annoying best friend, add a best friend, etc. Executives can be idiots, but a lot of the people at production companies really know their stuff, so a lot of this feedback is valuable. Then they'll shop the pilot script and maybe treatments for additional episodes around to networks. If a network is interested, then they might ask for revisions of the concept and the pilot script before ordering a pilot to be shot. Again, there are idiots, but there are sometimes good suggestions/requirements (like not killing Prince Charming in the pilot). The writers don't have a lot of choice about making these changes at this point unless they want to walk away from the whole deal, and once money gets involved (usually when a production company signs on), walking away can get complicated and expensive. They may have to write additional scripts before the series gets picked up, again with feedback along the way. From the sounds of things A&E got help from at least one friend during the development phase, who wasn't credited and wasn't officially involved with the series. There may be years of work during the development phase, so they have time and are forced to dig deep.

But then once the series is on the air, the production company and network are still involved and may still give notes, but it's not quite as detailed and hands-on, and there's a lot less advance planning required. They'd have also lost whatever outside input they were getting. Season one is probably not just A&E and the credited writing stuff, but also the input of others who helped, plus the people at the production company plus the people at the network, and many drafts along the way. Seasons 2 and beyond are A&E working without as much of a net, and working more quickly as they go rather than having to develop the whole season up front.

[Camera One]

I think that's what happened too.  A&E had enough help to know how to executive an effective story within the format constraints of Season 1.  But with the cork out of the bottle in Season 2 (magic in Storybrooke, Curse broken, flashbacks do not add up to a complete story), A&E started their "wouldn't it be cool if..." approach with no safety net or guide rails, resulting in a incoherent mess.  They delayed the disaster somewhat in 2A, maybe because Team Princess provided a concrete goal, and some of the immediate-aftermath stuff from the Curse breaking was more obvious.

[Free]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

I think that's what happened too.  A&E had enough help to know how to executive an effective story within the format constraints of Season 1.  But with the cork out of the bottle in Season 2 (magic in Storybrooke, Curse broken, flashbacks do not add up to a complete story), A&E started their "wouldn't it be cool if..." approach with no safety net or guide rails, resulting in a incoherent mess.  They delayed the disaster somewhat in 2A, maybe because Team Princess provided a concrete goal, and some of the immediate-aftermath stuff from the Curse breaking was more obvious.

I think someone else helped them to structure an outline for S1, it ended with the curse breaking, Emma believing in magic, while leaving some plot threads open (Baelfire/Neal, aftermath of the curse, etc.).

S2-3 onwards had free reign, but was also messy due to changes (getting Neverland rights, dealing with Greg/Tamara/Home Office, Neal/Baelfire's storyline, etc.)

Then Frozen came in S4a, that felt more studio controlled using the Frozen characters, and then it went back to A&E doing their thing onwards.

[Rumsy4]

Damon Lindelof was their mentor through the planning of S1--before even the Show started. This is from a couple of interviews A&E have given over the years (one of which I've linked here recently). Past S1, they had noone to offer them objective criticism. Then, with the exec meddling with 4A, the Frozen-storyline was again tightly supervised. The difference is quite telling.

Edited January 22, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Curio]

19 hours ago, Camera One said:

The Twitter conversations and interviews from A, E, J, etc. really reinforces that they operate on This is what you're SUPPOSED to think/feel, this is what you're SUPPOSED to care about.

Speaking of the writers forcing us to think something, I stumbled upon one of the original scripts for OUAT's Pilot. It's obviously a rough version because Emma's name is Anna, but it's still an interesting read. Here's the part where A&E clearly want to force the audience to think a specific way:

Quote

Regina is getting emotional now, full of regret. And what we find is that in stark contrast to the fairy-tale-land-queen, we REALLY LIKE this woman.

A&E want the audience to REALLY LIKE Regina. So much so that it's in ALL CAPS in the Pilot script. If it was their goal to make the audience REALLY LIKE Regina in Storybrooke in Season 1—and particularly the Pilot—they didn't execute it well at all. I could see that being a note in a script later in Season 2 or 3 when they were giving Regina her redemption arc, but I never once got the impression in Season 1 that I was supposed to like Mayor Regina. I got the sense I was supposed to find Regina's flashback with Daniel as somewhat sympathetic, but never the Evil Queen or present-day Regina.