The Sleepy Hollow Therapy Thread - What went wrong with Sleepy Hollow?

[MissAlmond]

Every time Mark Goffman opened his mouth to change the direction of an interview, all I could hear in my head was “Is you or is you ain’t my constituency?” 

 

After reading the new FOX heads wanting to be the #1 network, I plan on keeping my eyes opened on future interviews.  Because I think that’s where the future of SH past season three will be revealed.  My take?  If Goffman suddenly starts sprouting viewpoints closer to season one, a change probably is in the works.  OTOH, if Goffman keeps up with the same old, same old and ratings continue to drop, then SH is most likely a place holder until the new FOX regime comes with up a replacement.  Time will tell.

[MissAlmond]

Remember "Blood Moon" when Serilda was hunting down the descendants of SH residents who had done her wrong?  Didn't that give the impression that Moloch, Headless, and crew were wrecking vengenace on the entire town?  What happened to that? 

[DearEvette]

I thought the whole reason Abbie and Jenny were estranged was that Abbie lied about what she saw in the woods and went on to a normal life while Jenny told the truth and was institutionalized? It's been a while so I could be wrong there.

 

 

I don't think Jenny was institutionalized immediately after the lie in the woods.  But the girls were separated in the system. Remember the terrible foster home Jenny was in?  I think Abbie was placed in more stable homes because she was less threatening whereas Jenny was considered problematic and probably got placed in homes that would only take the problem kids?  But then Abbie herself fell in with a bad crowd and was gonna get sent to juvie and that is when Corbin stepped in.  I get the impression that he stepped into Abbie and Jenny's lives around the same time, but separately. 

 

IIRC, Jenny didn't allow herself to get committed until after she was possessed by the demon that possessed Macy & Luke.  She knew that the demon wanted her to harm Abby so she that was the reason she let herself get put away and refused to see Abbie, to keep her safe.

 

 

The show has a continuity problem and it's rules are so arbitrary.

 

 

Yeah, this is bothersome.  In a fantasy show you need rules or your world begins to implode.   I never understood the whole War as Avatar business with Henry.  And Abraham is beheaded, yet Katrina is worried that Orion will kill him or that he can be saved.  He's dead.  He has no head.   '

 

And Katrina's "magic" i so situational and convenient.

[theatremouse]

Yeah, and I think part of the continuity problem is a genuine intention on behalf of the show to be sort of "please forget we said some of these things; we're changing our minds", but then they've still got ongoing plots related/dependent upon those things. So you don't know whether you're coming or going because you can't know whether information you've seen in past episodes still matters or if it's part of the stuff that been (re?)written out. It's like...if the issue were just stuff from the pilot vs forward, it'd be easier to digest because lots of stuff can happen between pilot and rest of show, and if the pilot's not completely reshot to a new first episode, some of those things you can kind of expect and/or understand might just disappear and the audience is expected to run with it. But then it seems like maybe every six episodes there's some new conflicting continuity point. Then I find myself asking: was this a mistake, was it a conscious decision to change direction and hope we wouldn't notice, did they know they introduced a giant continuity error but liked the idea so much they didn't care, have the writers all been instructed to throw spaghetti on a wall of post-it ideas and only write what sticks? I just don't like having no ground to stand on where some details from past episodes can and do and are still intended to give me context and/or insight for current goings on, but others I have to pretend I never saw for anything to make sense.

Edited January 13, 2015 by theatremouse

[HalcyonDays]

And that's what I don't understand about Goffman and co. They killed Moloch because they felt that sticking to the bible stifling their creativity and put them in a box. Personally, that tells me that they are not very good or creative or inventive writers. I get not wanting to stick with one mythology, but really? They could have stuck with the biblical twistory, then brought in other religious elements, since they are all related anyway on some level or another.

 

On top of that, there are so many things established early on, that they could have fleshed out, but because of the focus on all things Katrina, that was thrown to the side. As DearEvette mentioned above about Corbin. Why couldn't they flesh out WHY Corbin took Jenny under his wing, and Abbie under his wing, and WHY he didn't tell each other about the supernatural he was investigating. You have one or two episodes right there. HOW did Corbin know about the supernatural - was it just a personal whim, or was their more going on?

 

Also, from the Pilot - why did Headless not kill Abbie. Remember, he rides away, turns, see Abbie on the ground, then leaves. He should have killed her, could have, never did. That could be fleshed out also - paint some mythology around it. There was so much set up in the first few episodes that could have been expanded into a creative rich mythology, that they blew, because Goffman wants to showcase his Muse and make all things Katrina. Just a terrible waste.

[DeLurker]

.Then I find myself asking: was this a mistake, was it a conscious decision to change direction and hope we wouldn't notice, did they know they introduced a giant continuity error but liked the idea so much they didn't care, have the writers all been instructed to throw spaghetti on a wall of post-it ideas and only write what sticks?.

You give it a lot more thought than they do - they being writers/show runners/ whoever.

[DearEvette]

And that's what I don't understand about Goffman and co. They killed Moloch because they felt that sticking to the bible stifling their creativity and put them in a box. Personally, that tells me that they are not very good or creative or inventive writers. I get not wanting to stick with one mythology, but really? They could have stuck with the biblical twistory, then brought in other religious elements, since they are all related anyway on some level or another.

 

On top of that, there are so many things established early on, that they could have fleshed out, but because of the focus on all things Katrina, that was thrown to the side. As DearEvette mentioned above about Corbin. Why couldn't they flesh out WHY Corbin took Jenny under his wing, and Abbie under his wing, and WHY he didn't tell each other about the supernatural he was investigating. You have one or two episodes right there. HOW did Corbin know about the supernatural - was it just a personal whim, or was their more going on?

 

Also, from the Pilot - why did Headless not kill Abbie. Remember, he rides away, turns, see Abbie on the ground, then leaves. He should have killed her, could have, never did. That could be fleshed out also - paint some mythology around it. There was so much set up in the first few episodes that could have been expanded into a creative rich mythology, that they blew, because Goffman wants to showcase his Muse and make all things Katrina. Just a terrible waste.

 

And this is why S1 is so much better than S2.  Not just because it was fun and exciting and bonkersawesome.  But because in S1 you got the sense they were working with some deep backstory and were devel;oping the story logically.  We get how complicated the relationship between Abbie & Jenny is because it was layered throughout the season so well.  We had questions/theories  about why they didn't see each other.  Jenny not wanting to see Abbie was established in S1 Ep. 3.  We assumed it was because of Abbie's betrayal.  But ti was more than than and we learn about it in S1 ep 11.   You were always left with the impression that the stuff in S1 was well reasoned and made logical sense.  Like everything else, S2 is frittering that sense of cohesion away.

[ChelseaNH]

You were always left with the impression that the stuff in S1 was well reasoned and made logical sense.

 

I wasn't particularly impressed with their plotting in season 1.  I compared it to another Kurtzman/Orci show:  Hawaii Five-0, where the "investigations" are driven by convenient tech-fu, because solving crimes isn't really what the show is about.  Sleepy Hollow was more about being a wild ride than connecting the dots.  I enjoyed the first season immensely, but I never thought it was particularly well structured.

 

I do agree that season 2 was the time to focus on world-building.  That would have been the time to figure out Jenny's personal history, instead of letting it be one of their handy plotwave engines.

[Amethyst]

Co-sign with the continuity issues; especially with what Savinggrace mentioned about Purgatory.  It seems that when anyone dies or goes missing, they're in Purgatory.  Pretty sure that's where Irving has been all this time, along with Andy Brooks, Lori Mills, and honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if we learned Corbin was there, too.  And Caroline.  And the Weeping lady (can't remember her name).  Even Orion was trapped there.  Is there no Heaven or Hell?  And when someone gets released from purgatory, their body is completely intact with no problems.  Seriously, if you can avoid the demons, purgatory doesn't sound so bad.

 

Killing Moloch was a mistake.  Why spend all this time going on about the apocalypse and how powerful he is just for Henry to take him out like that?  And now Abbie and Ichabod are just fighting the leftover demons from Purgatory?

 

I can't even start with the confusing avatars of the Horseman.  It just confirms that Irving's death was a waste because he didn't really kill Henry.

 

I hope FOX takes note that SH's competitor Jane the Virgin now boasts a Golden Globe, which means more publicity and live viewers.  

[DeLurker]

 

Killing Moloch was a mistake.  Why spend all this time going on about the apocalypse and how powerful he is just for Henry to take him out like that?

The murky rules about killing will come in handy here when they realize they made the mistake and need Moloch.  He'll be "dead" the same wasy Irving is dead.

[phoenics]

The murky rules about killing will come in handy here when they realize they made the mistake and need Moloch.  He'll be "dead" the same wasy Irving is dead.

Maybe he'll be Voldemort dead... and he just needs a worm tail to raise him again with the blood of his enemies (Abbie and Crane).

[Pete Martell]

I hope FOX takes note that SH's competitor Jane the Virgin now boasts a Golden Globe, which means more publicity and live viewers.  

 

I hope they don't, as I'm afraid Goffman will decide to give Katrina an immaculate conception pregnancy. Either that or say mystic magic has revirginized her and have Abraham and Crane fight over who gets to...make her a woman.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Pete Martell

[jhlipton]

I hope they don't, as I'm afraid Goffman will decide to give Katrina an immaculate conception pregnancy. Either that or say mystic magic has revirginized her and have Abraham and Crane fight over who gets to...make her a woman.

 

Ewwwwwwwwwww!  Do not like times 1000.

[cassandle]

I hope they don't, as I'm afraid Goffman will decide to give Katrina an immaculate conception pregnancy. Either that or say mystic magic has revirginized her and have Abraham and Crane fight over who gets to...make her a woman.

 

Ewwwwwwwwwww!  Do not like times 1000.

 

Yeah, I just threw up in my mouth a little bit--mostly because I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if that's what they did.

 

I also wouldn't be surprised if Moloch gets sent back to Purgatory and we have a giant repeat of them trying to raise him again in Season 3.  I have ZERO hope for this show anymore.

[savinggrace]

Making the the Horsemen of the Apocalypse avatars was a big mistake. The Horseman should be mysterious entities. We shouldn't know jack shit about them other than to fear them. Seeing them should signal the end of days is near and therefor there should only be one being representing each horseman-- not a revolving door of whiny men enlisted to wear a "horseman" costume.

[jhlipton]

a revolving door of whiny men enlisted to wear a "horseman" costume.

 

"Hey, wotcha doin' for Halloween?

"I'm gonna go as Death"

"Dammit, dude! I was gonna go as Death!  And Fred is going as War, which means I gotta be sucky Petulance!"

[savinggrace]

Making Frank a horseman would mean we have yet another neutered villian and candidate for redemption.

 

I don't think the actor Max Brown was signed to any more episodes so Orion could be yet another plot thread left hanging.

[Yolapukka]

Redemption ought to mean that a character back from the dead has their soul cleansed and can pass cleanly into the next life. It should not mean that they get to hang around  self-actualizing, leading a satisfying mortal life or having further chances to commit bad acts whether evil (murdery, soul-pilfering stuff) or petty (incessant whinging).

 

You know, that cleansing bit kind of sounds like the theological purpose of purgatory.

Edited January 17, 2015 by yuggapukka

[marceline]

Didn't Goffman already say they were moving away from the mythology because they wanted to "simplify" the show?

 

How far are they into taping? There's not time enough left to make any real changes to what happens onscreen is there?

[HalcyonDays]

Didn't Goffman already say they were moving away from the mythology because they wanted to "simplify" the show?

 

How far are they into taping? There's not time enough left to make any real changes to what happens onscreen is there?

 

They are filming the final episode now. However, we do know that some changes were made to the final episodes, after the big fallout recently. That's why the final two episodes will be Abbie-focused. Small changes will be made - like Hawley suddenly being back into Jenny.

 

Goffman said that the current focus on biblical Apocalypse hampers the writers in storytelling. That tells ME that they are just not good  or creative writers.

 

I'm surprised they didn't bring out the 'core competency' bullet point that companies always say when they over-reach. In case there's any doubt - "Core competency" = Mison/Beharie.

 

Exactly it. The sooner they get rid of those writers and show runner who don't fully comprehend or understand this, the better for the show and renewal. Goffman needs to go, along with anyone else who muses over Katrina/KW. John Noble needs to be resolved and written out, I don't care how good of an actor he is. With that done, CFD and the useless Katrina is no longer present. Now the show can focus on the Core Competency again. Now the show can return to its "fun" side.

[DeLurker]

I don't agree with "stupid, bad acting" but que sera, sera and I love your closing line.

[savinggrace]

I hope that by claiming  the "serialization" of the show is the problem that the Fox execs are just trying to spare the feeling of some of the writers and cast members who need to be let go. Sleepy Hollow was serialized from the very beginning and ratings were fine. People thought they were getting a story about Two Witness who were tasked with fending off the Apocalypse and were tuning in to see how things unfolded. Then they revealed the Horseman of Death was some jilted boyfriend and things started going to the crapper.

 

If they've checked any of the feedback they know damn well that the biggest issue has been the disruption of the lead characters Abbie and Ichabod. By shoe-horning Katrina in as the de-facto leading lady they messed up a good formula and sidelined the true leading lady. The shoddy writing and plot contrivances is but the stale icing on a moldy cake.

[HalcyonDays]

Well, since today's been filled with tons of news about Sleepy Hollow and subsequent drama,  - NEW POLL!! Because what the heck!

[Amethyst]

I'm also wondering how many changes they made to the remaining episodes this season, because I thought they were pretty much done filming.

 

 

Exactly it. The sooner they get rid of those writers and show runner who don't fully comprehend or understand this, the better for the show and renewal. Goffman needs to go, along with anyone else who muses over Katrina/KW. John Noble needs to be resolved and written out, I don't care how good of an actor he is. 

 

I think Goffman and his writers are out (huzzah!!) but I don't see them getting rid of Katrina and Henry.  Probably just Katrina.  Goffman is the only one pulling for her.  Plus, John Noble was a favorite on Fringe, and FOX jumped to cast him in this.  Besides the obvious CFD issue, losing Katrina won't mess up the storyline or the narrative, so she's expendable.  

[vanarnd1]

I don't think it would be the worst thing to make the show less serialized. It might be the cleaniest way to remove the CFD from the equation and allow the show to focus on the Ichabbie chemistry. Truthfully a buddy cop MOTW type show might be easier for the writers to maintain anyway as opposed to the mythology which seems to go in a lot of different directions.

 

It does changes things a little that Empire has been such a hit and that Fox seems to have clearly take notice of the creative issues of Sleepy Hollow.. I think the show will still get renewed but it seems like the margin of error is much less and hopefully that will force TPTB to make swifter changes.

[Pete Martell]

I assume the show will still be renewed, but this X-Files reboot talk should raise alarm bells with whoever is left running this show (into the ground). I'd say it's a sad harbinger, given that 20 years FOX used X-Files as a reason to clear the decks of all programming starring POC, but I guess Goffman already did a more than capable job of clearing the decks of POC on this show anyway. 

[RiddleyWalker]

I don't think it would be the worst thing to make the show less serialized. It might be the cleaniest way to remove the CFD from the equation and allow the show to focus on the Ichabbie chemistry. Truthfully a buddy cop MOTW type show might be easier for the writers to maintain anyway as opposed to the mythology which seems to go in a lot of different directions.

 

I agree whole-heartedly. The writers (at least the current ones) don't seem to be able to maintain a compelling and consistent mythology, so a less serialized show may allow them to focus on the strong points the show still has (as well as eliminate the chaff…)

 

I note that FOX is looking at bringing back The X-Files which had many stand-alone, MOTW episodes but also a myth-arc (though not a compelling one, IMO). That show was, of course, a huge hit for FOX back in the day and I wonder if TPTB think going back to that model might improve ratings on SH? 

 

That aside, it's interesting that the Fox execs are looking to diminish "serialization" when Empire (from what I can tell, haven't seen it) is essentially a soap opera which is nothing if not a serial...

 

ETA: Just saw your post above @Pete Martell. Very interesting...

Edited January 17, 2015 by RiddleyWalker

[BigEasygirl]

I think the comment that the show will be less serialized is referring specifically to SH being written like a soap opera where the supernatural elements are merely plot points that serve to drive the main soap storyline or the CFD.  I don't think that comment means the show won't return to its original premise--the Apocolypse, the Four Horsemen and the Two Witnesses--but will instead rely on a Monster of the Week format. 

 

Like others, I'm hoping FOX greenlighted a Dallas/Bobby dream to wipe away this entire season and are waiting to see what the (new showrunner and writer's) storybook/outline for season 3 entails to get the show back on track.

[RiddleyWalker]

I'm seeing more and more similarities between the course of  SH and Twin Peaks which I've watched recently for the first time. Both were quirky, difficult to pigeon-hole shows that were very successful their first seasons. After the creators lost interest/moved on, whatever weird (but in a strange way-- coherent) vision that made it successful was lost. In the case of TP, the show nose-dived and was cancelled. Without David Lynch and Mark Frost being intimately involved, I think that was inevitable. In the case of SH, I think the show is pretty easily salvageable though perhaps not as it was in S1.

[savinggrace]

I think the comment that the show will be less serialized is referring specifically to SH being written like a soap opera where the supernatural elements are merely plot points that serve to drive the main soap storyline or the CFD. .

Well the execs specifically said they didn't want viewers to feel like they couldn't follow the show if they missed a couple of episodes. I definitely think they want to nix long-term plot arcs. That's good news if it ends the CFD but bad news if it ends the Witness/Apocalypse story.

Edited January 17, 2015 by savinggrace

[Pete Martell]

I'm seeing more and more similarities between the course of  SH and Twin Peaks which I've watched recently for the first time. Both were quirky, difficult to pigeon-hole shows that were very successful their first seasons. After the creators lost interest/moved on, whatever weird (but in a strange way-- coherent) vision that made it successful was lost. In the case of TP, the show nose-dived and was cancelled. Without David Lynch and Mark Frost being intimately involved, I think that was inevitable. In the case of SH, I think the show is pretty easily salvageable though perhaps not as it was in S1.

 

A lot of Twin Peaks was insustainable, especially for that era of TV, where shows like Jake and The Fatman (car chases, lots of guns, but ultimately an episodic reminder of the safety of family and friendship)  were still more of the norm for TV drama. Twin Peaks did implode, but it was miraculous that it even held together as long as it did, or that it had an audience in the first place.

 

It was called miraculous when Sleepy Hollow was a hit, because of the subject matter, because of the diverse cast, because it had a female POC lead and did not treat her as some sort of bizarre curio. Yet this was ultimately a hint of viewers being more willing to talk the talk and walk the walk on diversity - to actually watch shows that had diverse casts and diverse perspectives and challenged the norm, instead of just being something on a cable channel that got Emmys but a handful of viewers. We've seen that further this season, with shows like Empire or How To Get Away With Murder.

 

Goffman, instead of seeing the trend, a trend that the show helped jumpstart, pissed it all away. He made the show more of the same, an afterthought. He's made the show, after only a year on the air, seem completely irrelevant to the landscape at large, and unlike Twin Peaks and David Lynch, I doubt he has the talent or creativity or work ethic to really hunker down and try to salvage what was left. The other difference is I think this show really, truly broke trust with many of their viewers, and trust is the hardest thing to get back from a fan. Once it's gone, it's gone.

 

It's sad to see just how ignorant Goffman and whoever else were about why people watched this show.

 

The whole thing is sad, really.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Pete Martell

[BigEasygirl]

Well the execs specifically said they didn't want viewers to feel like they couldn't follow the show if they missed a couple of episodes. I definitely think they want to nix long-term plot arcs. That's good news if it ends the CFD but bad news if it ends the Witness/Apocalypse story.

 

When I started watching SH, I watched episodes out of sequential order and was still able to keep up until I saw the other or preceding episodes.  I don't think a running Apocalyptic theme precludes a new viewer from doing that.  What does seem to require watching episodes in order is the ever changing and evolving fuckery that is the CFD. 

 

I still think the show can do MOW epis too.  However, there needs to be some central theme or the show is going to continue to struggle with its identity and purpose, and although it won't be as bad as it is now, it's might not make it to a fourth season without some kind of cohesive narrative.

 

edited to add quote 

Edited January 18, 2015 by Reese

[savinggrace]

I think breaking the serialization is necessary as a last resort because this season is a lost cause. They aren't going to regain viewers with the current focus on the Colonial love triangle. They need to wrap that crap up, bid the should-be-dead colonials (i.e. Katrina, Abraham and Henry) adieu, and bring the focus back to the man out of time navigating the modern world with his feisty partner.

Edited January 18, 2015 by savinggrace

[BigEasygirl]

I couldn't vote for Less Crane Drama because I want No Crane Drama.  Less is still too much.

[DearEvette]

I watched Empire's premiere - I don't remember seeing that many SH promos - but I wasn't paying much attention during commercials, so...

They didn't promo Sleepy Hollow during the premiere.  But after the premier got monster ratings (a 3.8 in the demo) and a ton of Social media buzz, they heavily promoted SH during the second episode.

 

 

Dana Walden did point out the chemistry between NB and TM in that interview. Hopefully this means the focus will return back to the witnesses, their relationship and away from Katrina/CFD.

I'm also going to believe the reference of getting way from serialization is changing this show from a melodrama back to Sci-fi/fantasy. I watch Empire for melodrama. I watch show like SH for Sci-fi / fantasy.

 

One thing that has been remarkably consistent in various articles, interviews etc. throughout SH's run is that Fox is all about Tom and Nicole.   After a day of some calm reflection I have to agree @Halcyondays' suspicion that what they were saying is corporate double speak.  They love Tom and Nicole means that those two are the only things really safe.  And although they say no cast changes, I have worked in enough places where the first thing the captain of a floundering ship says is that they are not going to get rid of anyone ... until the first bodies start disappearing overboard. I have hopes of who those casualties might be.

 

I also don't think serialization is quite the problem they think it is.  Unlike even five years ago, we now have tv show viewing capabilities that remove those old barriers to serialization.  All of Netflix's shows are predicated on serialization.  People can now watch shows one after the other to bring themselves up to speed.  You are no longer stuck with just the most recent episode and the fear of having no point of reference anymore.  Now you can go to a streaming service and pick up the ones you missed.  And even with all that, Sleepy Hollow's own broadcast fills in the blank for you.  Every show began with a summary up to date 'My name is Ichabod Crane..."

 

I am kind of hoping that 'Less Serialization' is just code for less soap opera.  I don't mind some of the MOTW, but like S1 they worked in context within a larger story frame.  I just don't want the show to turn into Abbie and Ichabod as a wacky supernatural crime fighting duo.  I don't know if I could co-sign with that.

Edited January 18, 2015 by DearEvette

[HalcyonDays]

I couldn't vote for Less Crane Drama because I want No Crane Drama.  Less is still too much.

 

Okay, I threw in the NO Crane drama for you to vote on. I do think that Crane will never be drama free - Every character is going to have some drama in their lives/on the show. However drama I want to see --> Crane and his father at odds. Drama with him fighting in the war. Drama in conflict with other soldiers. Drama in dealing with the modern life. I would love to see this. What I don't want to see anymore is Katrina/Henry/Baby/Marriage/Blah drama. That needs to be done.

 

*crossesfingers*

 

Anyone else find is amusing that there is more engaging drama behind the scenes on the show, then on the actual show.

[DeLurker]

Brought over from the Abbie thread since this follow up pertains to more than just Abbie:

 

I understand subtleties. I've been a film editor (yeah, big Hollywood, small tv, docs for decades..some are Oscar/Emmy-winners). I couldn't even calculate how many hours/years of acting I've watched/scrutinized/"fixed"...sorry, but, I see bad writing AND acting.

LinaLamont - If I've read your posts correctly, you find Tom Mison to be doing a good job in this role, but find most other characters lacking to the point where you would classify them as "bad".  Given your credentials, is it your opinion that TM's character is just written better, that TM elevates subpar writing, both?  Or some other factor at play?

 

I don't disagree that TM seems to be a good actor and, in general, I like how he plays Ich (despite the fact that Ich has suffered greatly from the writing this season), but what is your read on TM's scenes with Katrina?  Again, poor writing aside, I find this normally engaging actor incredibly flat in these scenes.  My theory that Katrina, and possibly KW, is the Black Hole of Acting, but ...

 

And this is wandering away from SH, but in the world of TV, who do you think is a good actor?  Not just limited to SH.  I'm looking for a basis of comparison to help me appreciate your perspective since my own varies substantially on this topic.  I think NB, LG and Orlando Jones (can't do "OJ" either) are doing the best they can with some substandard material and, in lesser actors, would lose all the appeal that these characters have.  Further, I find NB as strong an actor (in this show) as TM.

 

And, what would you suggest to "fix" things?

[savinggrace]

I have a theory that, everything being equal, the person with the British accent will be perceived as the better actor. I don't mean this in the case of Tom Mison but  It amazes me how British accents can allow an actor to get praise for otherwise mediocre acting. Emilia Clarke on Game of Thrones and Emma Watson in everything she does comes to mind. Considering that theory, it's amusing that Katia Winter's acting is so bad her accent can't compensate.

[Indi]

Okay, I voted the changes I'd like to see, not what I expect to see, because my expectations are at an all time low.

[MissAlmond]

I don’t agree with the article either, especially since the author seems to believe the serialization of My Son, Henry storyline worked. Ugh.

 

Since the FOX execs mentioned going back to the concept of Season one, my guess they mean SH can have an overall arc (two witnesses, Headless being Headless, the Apocalypse) without viewers needing to watch episodes in order to decipher what’s happening each week.  It wouldn’t bother me,  SH isn’t that deep to require that much energy in watching.  One of the reasons it took off was because it was wacky, fun and willing to go batshit crazy when required, plus the great chemistry of the two leads.  There's a great chance are being diplomatic.  It’s never smart to burn bridges.  Who knows when they may need to work with any of these people again.

But if FOX really means to turn this show around, I don’t envy them.  They have to 1) Reach out to viewers who left and woo them back.  2) Find new viewers, something every television show hopes for.  3) Please viewers who stayed but were not only angry with storylines, but then felt disrespected by the showrunner.  Getting trust back from people told they weren’t true fans is probably the hardest task of all.  And there’s also this: 4) Getting the viewers who loved Season 2 to stick around too for the reboot.  There are already postings from people who preferred the direction of Season 2 and I’m sure most of them are sincere.  But, just like there was an underbelly of angry viewers who wanted Ichabod gone and the show to be all about Abbie or Abbie and Jenny, the flipside are viewers who loved the All About Katrina storylines. These are the ones who wanted more Katrina because it meant there could never, ever be an Ichabbie. It didn't matter that some some angry viewers didn’t care about Ichabbie either.  I won’t touch that which is not to be mentioned, reading their postings is enough to tell the story.  They are  are already blaming “shippers” for the possible cancellation of SH.  Regardless of the fact that I’m pretty sure it was the critics, not hashtags, along with slipping ratings (and possibly Jane the Virgin gaining traction) that put FOX into action. 

 

That’s why I don’t suggest the killing off of Katrina.  This show needs healing.  Return Katrina to where she was in early season one.  That Katrina I didn’t mind.  Do something else with Henry and make Headless Headless again.  The last thing SH needs in rebuilding is another round of angry people in social media.  If the reboot doesn’t work or if viewers of old don’t return, there will probably be a different set of hashtags to deal with.  This venting in social media, deeply divided  fandom is Goffman’s legacy. Frankly, I think if FOX didn’t own SH outright where syndication money comes in play, they probably would have called it a day and send SH on it’s way to join “Almost Human”.

[MissAlmond]

I would pay money to get firsthand, up-to-date, reliable information on the current behind the scenes drama going on with SH.  LOL

[DeLurker]

 

Anyone else find is amusing that there is more engaging drama behind the scenes on the show, then on the actual show.

There's a goldmine of a show based on the behind-the-scenes stuff!

[pcta]

I would pay money to get firsthand, up-to-date, reliable information on the current behind the scenes drama going on with SH.  LOL

Start a fund - I'm in

[HalcyonDays]

I would pay money to get firsthand, up-to-date, reliable information on the current behind the scenes drama going on with SH.  LOL

 

I sense a completely dysfunctional environment behind the scenes. From Kurtzman and Orci leaving, to Jose Molina gone, to half of the season 1 writers gone, to the Head costume designer leaving before seasons end, it's like a revolving door. I want some juicy blind items to come out about the show.

 

There's a goldmine of a show based on the behind-the-scenes stuff!

 

There is. The drama behind the scenes is fascinating. Maybe that's why they can't write good drama ON the show. They've exhausted their drama quota in there own personal behind the scene dealings.

[MissAlmond]

 

From Kurtzman and Orci leaving, to Jose Molina gone, to half of the season 1 writers gone, to the Head costume designer leaving before seasons end, it's like a revolving door.

      

Hope I used the quote feature right!

 

Kurtzman and Orci leaving doesn't surprise me.  Until recently, Orci was slated to direct Star Trek 3, something far more prestigous than keeping track of SH.  But the head costume designer?  That's all sorts of WTH. 

[Amethyst]

That’s why I don’t suggest the killing off of Katrina.  This show needs healing.  Return Katrina to where she was in early season one.  That Katrina I didn’t mind.  

 

The only problem with that is that Katrina wasn't much use in Purgatory, either.  She would send the occasional message to Ichabod when she could, but beyond that, she was a damsel-in-distress waiting to be rescued.  Throwing her back in Purgatory would be taking a step backwards, not forwards.  The majority of SH's viewers have lost patience with Katrina so the writers either need to put her somewhere where she'll truly be of use, or get rid of her.  They can't afford to go back and forth on this anymore.

 

Something I just thought of was that Abraham is mainly linked to the show through Katrina, now that Moloch is gone.  I wonder if losing Katrina would mean losing Abraham/Headless as well.

[MissAlmond]

The only problem with that is that Katrina wasn't much use in Purgatory, either.  She would send the occasional message to Ichabod when she could, but beyond that, she was a damsel-in-distress waiting to be rescued.  Throwing her back in Purgatory would be taking a step backwards, not forwards.  The majority of SH's viewers have lost patience with Katrina so the writers either need to put her somewhere where she'll truly be of use, or get rid of her. 

 

I guess my feelings are, if FOX really is giving this show a fresh start, they need to reach a peace in fandom.  There are people - outside those who write nasty comments - who truly liked Katrina's character.  It didn't help that Goffman annointed them his true fans.  The last thing FOX probably wants to go through is another round of nasty social media comments, this time from people blaming any reboot  problems on offing Katrina.   They could make Katrina truly dead and ghost, which some say was the plan all along.  Whatever happens, I wish them good luck and strong writers because they're going to need them to turn Goffman's Folly around.

 

Now for the latest question for "Behind the Scenes with Sleepy Hollow". What are the likes of Michael Ausrillo and that Nerdist blogger thinking now?.  They were fully onboard The Good Ship Goffman, Ausrillo even tweeting that SH didn't need to be fixed.  Now that FOX has spoken, I wonder if he'll write a new column that says:  "After giving SH some thought over the holidays, I've concluded it does need major fixing after all."  LOL

[MissAlmond]

Good Lord, I just realized my post sounded like double speak.  To clairfy - I don't care if the character of Katrina is killed off, I just think it's best of keep the actress.  Katrina can one again become the half truth speaker from beyond she was before.  With limited screen time. 

[BigEasygirl]

Okay, I threw in the NO Crane drama for you to vote on. I do think that Crane will never be drama free - Every character is going to have some drama in their lives/on the show. However drama I want to see --> Crane and his father at odds. Drama with him fighting in the war. Drama in conflict with other soldiers. Drama in dealing with the modern life. I would love to see this. What I don't want to see anymore is Katrina/Henry/Baby/Marriage/Blah drama. That needs to be done.

 

*crossesfingers*

 

Anyone else find is amusing that there is more engaging drama behind the scenes on the show, then on the actual show.

YESSSS!  To Crane's relationship with his father being addressed at some point.  I actually thought about adding that caveat to my post at the time but didn't.  I echo wanting organic drama that develops from backstory and character interaction as the larger story is played out for Crane (and Abbie too).  When I said I wanted no more Crane drama, I was referring to the current CFD.  I'm just sick of it.

 

In any case, thanks for adding that option. 

 

I'm really hoping for a Bobby Ewing dream scenario for this entire season.  I can't tell you how relived and happy I was  when Bobby, my favorite character, showed up in that shower.  I know that the show was widely panned for doing it, but at the time, I was impressed with the show's admission that they'd made ginormous mistakes that couldn't be overcome any other way but by erasure.   In light of SH's current debacle of a season, my admiration for Dallas' producers and CBS has increased tenfold.

 

I hope someone has the courage and vision to duplicate that feat. 

 

eta:  The current BTS/Network drama is totally more engrossing than the show, and I'm loving it.  It's vindication for the fandom's and all the justifiable concerns/criticism that the writers and showrunners dissed so brutally on social media, namely twitter. 

 

  So yeah, I'm enjoying them having to publically eat crow.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Reese

[blixie]

I honestly can't accept any thing other than Katrina being gone from the canvas in S3, if they want to keep her they need to go the way of the Originals, turn her evil, have her totally nonesensical corporeal body still in existence life snuffed, and transfer her newly evil character into the body of some actress that is NOT Katia Winters.

 

I won't watch the show until Winters, Goffman, and his staff are all out. I just can not even with any of that any more. No amount of half-assed BTS expressed love for Nikki/Tom can make me tolerate this shit being served still! C'mon!

Edited January 18, 2015 by blixie