S02.E09: Mama

[MDKNIGHT]

Even a Doctor is not supposed to give you medication without your consent.  If a male decided that HE knew best and slipped something into a woman's drink "for her own good" (for example to keep her out of trouble not to rape her)   I think we'd clue into it being wrong.  Just because it was a guy taking away another guy's agency doesn't make it less wrong.  Also how would Hawley know what dose to give Ichabod or that Ichabod wasn't allergic to it?  It is only because this is fictional and Ichabod is the star and therefore won't die that prevents this from being a guy taking a chance on killing another guy, all because the drugged guy won't take a nap as ordered to by his non-superior. Made me think Hawley is even more of an egotistical jerk than I already did.   It is just all kinds of wrong and I'm disappointed Abbie was OK with this.  If she weren't so awesome the rest of the time I'd have lost some of my love for her (and also really questioned both her morals and her intelligence.)

[fantique]

I wouldn't have changed my mind if it had been a man giving it to a woman. I don't value gravity of actions based on the genders of the people involved. Just like I don"t judge the writing based on the fact that Abbie is a woman or black. You can check every single thing I said since I got on this forum. I've always said that when writing a successful female character, it's about just conceptualising a human who happens to have female reproductive organs. My focus is always on whether they are written with intelligence and thoughtfully.

I didn't perceive it as wrong, if it had been Hawley giving the medicine to Jenny, the same as with Crane, I would have found it funny as well. To me it's about intent, do I think they were being malicious? No. So it didn't bother me. 

From a practical standpoint, Crane stumbling behind them with a fever and sneezing all over the place wouldn't exactly have been ideal. I don't see how they could have done their job with a sick Crane in tow, so I didn't doubt Abbie's intelligence. 

 

Like I said earlier, it was obviously played for laughs and I didn't feel the intent was nefarious. Of course I can see that it offended some people, that's not my business to say they're wrong. That also means others can't tell me I am looking at this wrong and if Crane was a woman, I would change my mind and find it a horrible and disgusting act. It had nothing to do with that, this is one of those scenes were experiences and mindset colour the scene. Arguing for specifics is not going to change anything because it's not like we saw a different scene and have a totally different story of what happened, we just don't have the same value judgement for the act committed and that's fine. The only reason why I even addressed this question is because someone brought up roofies which made the intent seem very horrible and careless. I felt the show obviously was not going for that vibe and, as much as I don't particularly like Hawley, I don't think he'd give Crane something that leaves damage in his system. If someone says to me "Ooh, that scene... IDK, I am not amused by this and found it shady because he didn't agree to this", I would have thought "oh interesting, I didn't see it that way" and wouldn't even have commented. Bringing up date rape drugs and trying to make a parallel there was making it about facts that would change the show's intent with this scene and therefore arguable.

 

There are a lot of things some people say here that I don't agree with but when they're about their feelings and their perception and not facts, I don't comment because it doesn't add to the discussion which is the point of this forum.

Edited November 21, 2014 by fantique

[Indi]

"Eyes open, heads up, trust no one." - Lori Mills

"My faith in you is my greatest weakness.” - Abbie Mills

 

I hope this means something. Abbie's trust in Ichy is completely unjustified and even though she knows this, she can't help herself. Lori warning makes me think Ichy will try to kill Abbie at some point. It doesn't make sense to me that he's such a failure as a Witness (and as a human being), so I'm hoping they'll reveal he's not actually one and that he'll end up siding with Moloch.

[HalcyonDays]

"Eyes open, heads up, trust no one." - Lori Mills

"My faith in you is my greatest weakness.” - Abbie Mills

 

I hope this means something. Abbie's trust in Ichy is completely unjustified and even though she knows this, she can't help herself. Lori warning makes me think Ichy will try to kill Abbie at some point. It doesn't make sense to me that he's such a failure as a Witness (and as a human being), so I'm hoping they'll reveal he's not actually one and that he'll end up siding with Moloch.

 

Interesting about those quotes - yes, they do mean something for sure - very deliberate. Lori knew that anyone and everyone had the potential to be a demon, hence the trust no one (channeling X-Files, I see writers!). And you are right, her trust for Ichabod is going to cause some issues.

 

But there is no way Ichabod will try to kill Abbie. He's the lead of the show? Why would he do this? It's so uncharacteristic and makes no sense. This is a guy who went into the Sandman world to protect Abbie. How could the show go on if this is the case - the only way it could happen is if Ichabod was under an enchantment and was forced to do it. Other than that, no.

 

However, what I DO see is that Abbie's trust in his useless wife will somehow lead to Abbie almost being killed. She still has a bit of trust for Ichabod's opinion on his wife - just a little - which is why she hasn't taken her machine gun and blasted Henry et all to bits. But his stupid wife is going to do something that causes harm to Abbie and other people - because that's what she does - and that is where the serious divide will come.

[Lastwaltz]

"Eyes open, heads up, trust no one." - Lori Mills

"My faith in you is my greatest weakness.” - Abbie Mills

 

I hope this means something. Abbie's trust in Ichy is completely unjustified and even though she knows this, she can't help herself. Lori warning makes me think Ichy will try to kill Abbie at some point. It doesn't make sense to me that he's such a failure as a Witness (and as a human being), so I'm hoping they'll reveal he's not actually one and that he'll end up siding with Moloch.

 

Wait, what? I don't think Abbie's trust in Ichabod is unjustified at all. At least as exposed by the story. We can speculate about how this will all end up, but I don't see evidence that Ichabod is a failure in any way. 

 

Or, my affection for Tim Mison is clouding my judgment : )

[cyan]

Even a Doctor is not supposed to give you medication without your consent.  

Seriously. I was so shocked to see it played for laughs. Friends don't drug friends without their friend's knowledge and consent. Drugging someone is what *villains* do, because it's a grotesque violation of a person, regardless of intention. What concerns me is that the writers apparently didn't see this as a significant or wrong thing to do, so they are clearly not all that well-versed in, I don't know, the basic moral and psychological dynamics of basic forms of abuse. Awesome.

[stealinghome]

Yeah, I have to say that I am another person who was pretty uncomfortable with Hawley drugging Ichabod like that. I understand it was played for laughs (which is the only reason I can even somewhat roll with it), but I didn't think it was at all funny. It made me think less of Hawley, and by extension, because she went with it and laughed instead of chewing Hawley out, Abbie.

[HalcyonDays]

Wait, what? I don't think Abbie's trust in Ichabod is unjustified at all. At least as exposed by the story. We can speculate about how this will all end up, but I don't see evidence that Ichabod is a failure in any way. 

 

Or, my affection for Tim Mison is clouding my judgment : )

 

You meant Tom Mison, right?

[Lastwaltz]

Yes, I absolutely do mean TOM Mison : )

[Seychelles]

I would have been amused whether it was Abbie or Ichabod who was slipped the Nyquil. But I guess I'm a horrible person, lol. Of course I wouldn't have felt so if it hadn't been done for comedic purposes.

[Miss Dee]

I've been around people who stubbornly refuse to take medication they need. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. The difference is this: are you doing it for your benefit or theirs? Drugging Ichabod so that Hawley and Abbie can have a big laugh at his expense: abhorrent. Drugging Ichabod because Hawley and Abbie know he's stubborn and can't convince him to take medicine he needs any other way: expedient.

[Indi]

But there is no way Ichabod will try to kill Abbie. He's the lead of the show? Why would he do this?

 

Isn't that lead status, what gives the show the excuse to not deal with his betrayal to Abbie or the way he's demeaned and thrown her under the bus repeatedly? His blindness because of his ~Epic Pure Love~ seems to be more than enough to justify everything he does. At this point, I'd be surprised if he lifted a finger to save Abbie if his totally redeemable son, who actually hides a heart of gold in Ichy's mind, tried to do her harm or if his Beloved Wife asked him to kill Abbie, in order to redeem their golden little boy. I mean, he's always sided against Abbie no matter what. Why would he begin to actually respect her now? That would require a complete makeover of the character and that's not going to happen. Showrunners do love their special white dickhead male leads.

[fantique]

However, what I DO see is that Abbie's trust in his useless wife will somehow lead to Abbie almost being killed. She still has a bit of trust for Ichabod's opinion on his wife - just a little - which is why she hasn't taken her machine gun and blasted Henry et all to bits. But his stupid wife is going to do something that causes harm to Abbie and other people - because that's what she does - and that is where the serious divide will come.

This made me LOL and is the highlight of my day. 

[DeLurker]

 

"Eyes open, heads up, trust no one." - Lori Mills

"My faith in you is my greatest weakness.” - Abbie Mills

I hope this means something.

I thought Abbie said that before she ended up in purgatory and the fauxIch showed up trying to give her a drink.  Am I misremebering or has she said it more recently too?

[fantique]

She only said it once, after she got back in episode 2. They were talking about Henry being Crane's weakness.

[savinggrace]

I would have been amused whether it was Abbie or Ichabod who was slipped the Nyquil. But I guess I'm a horrible person, lol. Of course I wouldn't have felt so if it hadn't been done for comedic purposes.

 

Add me to the horrible person brigade. I was highly amused at drugged Ichabod trying not to fall asleep then finally just falling out.

 

I take my cue from the characters. Ichabod wasn't offended and was, in fact, grateful for Hawley's intervention so I'm cool with it too. I prefer to save my outrage for real life injustices.

[cyan]

I've been around people who stubbornly refuse to take medication they need. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. The difference is this: are you doing it for your benefit or theirs? Drugging Ichabod so that Hawley and Abbie can have a big laugh at his expense: abhorrent. Drugging Ichabod because Hawley and Abbie know he's stubborn and can't convince him to take medicine he needs any other way: expedient.

Abusive action is abusive regardless of intent. You can't alter someone's physical autonomy, state of consciousness and level of ability to defend themselves. If you do that, you are taking a level of control over another person that you have no right to. Hence it being abusive. (I mean general "you", not directed at a specific person). And that wasn't no NyQuil, either. 

 

Abbie! The universe needs you to be in command and use Hawley for foot massages and food delivery and booty calls, as God intended, and if you want to play doctor with him, you should be *the doctor*.

 

Anyway, I forthwith solemnly declare that I shall no longer broach this topic.

 

The thing that sticks to me in this ep for some reason is that Jenny used to be all whatevs about the psych hospital, like, I'll stay here because right now it's convenient. Suddenly she is all fearful about it? That was weird. As was the lack of any staff at all.

 

Incidentally, psychiatric hospital nurses do hourly rounds to make sure no one is running around trying to off themselves or get high, and glass or cutting objects are not allowed on ward. Incoming patients' belongings get searched, and any potential improvised suicide material gets confiscated, including headphones, phone chargers, belts and shoe laces. Just a fun bit of mental health care trivia for y'all :). So having patients try to off themselves in front of a security camera is incredibly silly and lazy. 

 

I always fail to understand why the writers feel they always have to resolve the story in one episode, when actually giving the material its due over a couple of eps would prevent the stencil screenwriting they end up resorting to. Like this episode, there was so much important stuff  that was just rushed through head-first. Abbie and Jenny even being willing to acknowledge and look at their past is major, let alone have such a reunion with their mother. It all could have been far more powerful as the culmination of some kind of proper build-up.

Edited November 21, 2014 by cyan

[Snookums]

. (Did we find out before that it won't come off? I don't remember. ).

 

 

We did. Abraham "I Found A Way To Whine Even Without A Head" said so when he put it on her; that it was all majiked up so not to bother trying to remove it and that it will project images to help her understand, or some such poppycock. Since ICHABOD is the one who picked the damn thing out in the first place I don't get why Abraham and Jeremy put such trust in the damn thing.

 

As much as I rag on Katrina, I have to give it to the writers--they tried a bit this time. She didn't let herself get sucked into the "baaaaabeeeee" thing, she concocted a poison to murder what she thought and saw as an infant (and I can't lie, I would find that hard to do), she tried. And when she ran into Draco/Moloch teen band boy, it's not like she burst into tears or threw the potion away--she was shocked and unsure what to do. I find her far more tolerable when she's nowhere near the protagonists/leads. 

 

A couple more things I found interesting: John Noble's pain as Katrina picked up BabyMoloch and held him--a great note of how he just cannot let this go. 

 

The old fashioned diaper on BabyMoloch. Nice touch.

 

How stark and cheerless the "nursery" was, and how they never bothered to cover BabyMoloch up, showing how all these trappings were simply for expedience.

 

Okay, moving onto the main event: YES. THIS IS AN EPISODE. Lots of the Mills sisters, working and bonding, just enough explanation to cover plot contrivance asses--yeah, yeah, you've got the total lead on this case, bring in your crazy sis and that weirdo you hang out with, whatever. Hawley in the background where he belongs (had the show had the patience to do this all along I don't think the character would be generating half the resentment he is), fantastic family stuff, and highlighting how stark and painful being "chosen" for this kind of thing is, the extent of the damage it does to the support staff/loved ones of the main actors. 

 

Since Crane was sidelined, Mison did such great work with the whole "ugh my head feels like it's filled with elephants on roller skates" misery of a cold. His beaming smile when he drank the soup was gold. 

 

Did we really need to see Lambert beat Lori Mlls like she ran off the Plantation?

While screaming for her to eh, obey?

 

 

That scene shocked the hell out of me, not only for the racial horror implicit in it but how it came the fuck out of NOWHERE--the nurse wasn't some former owner of the Mills family forbearer--they made quite a point of showing Grace as a freewoman. I honestly don't get what they were going for.

[Snookums]

The thing that sticks to me in this ep for some reason is that Jenny used to be all whatevs about the psych hospital, like, I'll stay here because right now it's convenient. Suddenly she is all fearful about it? That was weird. As was the lack of any staff at all.

Incidentally, psychiatric hospital nurses do hourly rounds to make sure no one is running around trying to off themselves or get high, and glass or cutting objects are not allowed on ward. Incoming patients' belongings get searched, and any potential improvised suicide material gets confiscated, including headphones, phone chargers, belts and shoe laces. Just a fun bit of mental health care trivia for y'all :). So having patients try to off themselves in front of a security camera is incredibly silly and lazy.

 

 

Oh, ALL that made me nuts. It was absolutely ridiculous. The idea that a mental patient could get a mirror, break it and attempt to slit their throat/wrists with no one noticing, especially with staff watching on video! If they'd had a scene where Evil Nurse was blurring or blocking the feed or sending false images that would have been one thing, but apparently only three people work here and none of them bother, you know, taking care of patients.

 

Also, I really wish the tradition of "creepiest damn building in town, half of it falling apart and the rest icy cold to the touch, is the perfect place to pursue mental health" trope could be retired. 

[catrox14]

Well this was much better than the other episodes this season  and IMO that is because it got back to Team Witness so to speak.  I didn't like that Ichabod was sidelined in favor of Hawley but I do like Hawley and I hope he and Ichabod become friends.

 

I think Katrina works better on her own away from Team Witness dealing with Moloch and Henry. 

Edited November 22, 2014 by catrox14

[phoenics]

I always fail to understand why the writers feel they always have to resolve the story in one episode, when actually giving the material its due over a couple of eps would prevent the stencil screenwriting they end up resorting to. Like this episode, there was so much important stuff  that was just rushed through head-first. Abbie and Jenny even being willing to acknowledge and look at their past is major, let alone have such a reunion with their mother. It all could have been far more powerful as the culmination of some kind of proper build-up.

I think this is because the writers deem Abbie only good enough (or compelling enough) for "a very special episode", whereas they deem the Cranes worthy of an entire long story arc (that is slowly killing the ratings).

I really wish they had built up to this all season - I honestly think the writers made a huge mistake with not doing that - it's SO MUCH more compelling than the CFD and it ties so well with LAST season and all of the questions people have about Abbie and even the Witnesses as a whole.

I think I'm still sore that this only touched on some of the themes from last season... Moloch wanting Abbie delivered to him... Grace and how she died... etc. I mean - it even ties into Henry - and it is much more compelling than coming at it from the Crane POV. And as I said - the whole "hunted" angle that was so strong in the first season with Jenny and Abbie... it's a shame the writers dropped that.

Especially since they seem so intent on pushing the CFD STILL.

I do wonder if

Orion isn't them redirecting a bit. But even if they are, if they still persist with the CFD and the focus on Katrina, the ratings will continue to plummet

.

Edited November 22, 2014 by phoenics

[DearEvette]

The thing that sticks to me in this ep for some reason is that Jenny used to be all whatevs about the psych hospital, like, I'll stay here because right now it's convenient. Suddenly she is all fearful about it?

 

 

I don't think it was quite that casual though.  If I am recalling correctly, Jenny stayed in the mental institution because supposedly it was best place for her to be in order to not be a threat to Abbie's welfare.  When she became possessed by the Demon, she knew that it would use her to kill Abbie so she couldn't be out and about, so she allowed herself to be institutionalized.  It was (apparently) well regulated and she couldn't get out without it being a BFD.  I can see how she could still be apprehensive of the place, even under those conditions. 

[Moonsky]

“Mama” is probably the most emotional episode of Sleepy Hollow so far. Kudos to Nicole Beharie, Lyndie Greenwood, & Aunjanue Ellis for portraying a complex family dynamic that involves an extremely troubled past but the love for each other is still present.

 

There was a bit of Crane Family Drama but for the most part it was great to get the chance to focus on the Mills family's involvement in the war. Grace’s journal containing information on how to fight this war helps to strengthen Abbie’s role as a witness & Jenny's part in the war.

 

It was good to see the showrunners remembered that Lyndie Greenwood was made a regular cast member this season. Jenny, you have been missed.

 

It was nice to see Orlando Jones get more than five minutes of screen time again.

 

I needed a break from Season Two Ichabod so I didn’t mind him not having a huge role in this episode.

 

Hawley wasn’t really needed in this episode, so I was happy that his presence didn’t get in the way of many of the Abbie & Jenny scenes.

[TV Juriste]

 

Katrina's actions were confusing so I'm going with my own head canon . . . 

 

Thank you for giving me a new line, which I intend to start using - "I'm going with my own head canon." 

[DeLurker]

Sadly, Katrina makes me use my head cannon.

[vanarnd1]

I think this is because the writers deem Abbie only good enough (or compelling enough) for "a very special episode", whereas they deem the Cranes worthy of an entire long story arc (that is slowly killing the ratings).

I really wish they had built up to this all season - I honestly think the writers made a huge mistake with not doing that - it's SO MUCH more compelling than the CFD and it ties so well with LAST season and all of the questions people have about Abbie and even the Witnesses as a whole.

I think I'm still sore that this only touched on some of the themes from last season... Moloch wanting Abbie delivered to him... Grace and how she died... etc. I mean - it even ties into Henry - and it is much more compelling than coming at it from the Crane POV. And as I said - the whole "hunted" angle that was so strong in the first season with Jenny and Abbie... it's a shame the writers dropped that.

Especially since they seem so intent on pushing the CFD STILL.

 

I hope the writers find a way to expand on Abbie and Jenny's roles withing the overall mythology now that they have emotional closure. As a viewer I felt much more invested in their struggles in one episode than I have for the Cranes this entire season and I think that is a major issue the show has.

 

What you mentioned is one of the reasons why I liked the dynamic of the witnesses much more in Season 1. Last season I felt Abbie and Ichabod were both equally involved in the overall storyline and that created a greater sense of urgency. I think the focus on the CFD has slowed down the pace of the show and hasn't allowed for much time to expand on what was teased in Season 1 in regards to Abbie's role and lineage as a witness.

 

I hope there is some kind of shake up in the mid-season finale because this past episode was like a breath of fresh air that should be the norm instead of the exception

[phoenics]

Because of

spoilers that we will get MORE Katrina backstory - Salem Witch Trials - in episode 14, I don't believe we will be getting much more with Abbie/Jenny. I really, really dislike the show runners right now. They honestly don't get it and I think I am very close to dropping this show.

[RiddleyWalker]

Oh, hell!

 

First off, I love you all….especially Phoenics,,,  ;) 

 

For all we know this episode 14 will show how evil Katrina was back then and why Ichabod is right in leaving her! It's not that I think the show runner and writers are so great, it's just that we really DON'T KNOW where they're taking the story, Why think the worst of anyone?  My feeling is that they're slowly moving Katrina away from Ichabod in order to free up Ichabod for the inevitable Ichabbie conclusion. That being said, there are so many flaws with the way season 2 has unfolded that I don't know where to start. (Though I'll give it a shot on the new thread tomorrow).

 

I guess my point is that though the writers and show runner may be inept, the only ending in sight is an Ichabbie one. It may take awhile and you may think Ichabod isn't worth it at times, but that's where the show's going (if it's not cancelled).

Edited November 24, 2014 by RiddleyWalker

[OakGoblinFly]

What the hell was the purpose of sidelining Crane for the entire episode? Hawley drugs him and goes in his place? Hawley's standing in for Crane now, too? Shall we start calling this show "Sleepy Hawley"?

<snip>

Tweet from Orlando Jones about halfway through: "I am loving this episode so far but to be honest, it could use a tad more @TomMison #BestIchabodCraneEva RT if you agree #SleepyHollow"

<snip>

 

 

I, for one, was glad at the diminished role of Crane this episode as it felt most of the season has been center around Crane and Katrina.  It was nice to see Jenny and Abbie take center stage.

[Amethyst]

I think this is because the writers deem Abbie only good enough (or compelling enough) for "a very special episode", whereas they deem the Cranes worthy of an entire long story arc (that is slowly killing the ratings).

I really wish they had built up to this all season - I honestly think the writers made a huge mistake with not doing that - it's SO MUCH more compelling than the CFD and it ties so well with LAST season and all of the questions people have about Abbie and even the Witnesses as a whole.

 

We were long overdue for an Abbie-centric episode, especially one about her and Jenny's mother.  However, my issue with this episode was that it was so much crammed in, when it should have been spread out over the course of the season, and it would have helped balance all the CFD.  

 

I'm wondering if this was a casualty of Abbie's dropped plot in Purgatory.  It would have made a lot more sense for Lori to show up to guide Abbie out of that house of horror, and in turn, learn more about her past.  We already know that Abbie was supposed to be in Purgatory for a few episodes, and Nicole talked about it a lot in interviews.  Since it didn't work out that way, they cram several episodes of exposition into one hour.

[Miss Dee]

That's a good supposition...they might have had to course-correct really rapidly. It's even possible that Abbie wouldn't have felt so sidelined had they been able to pursue the purgatory story.

[savinggrace]

We were long overdue for an Abbie-centric episode, especially one about her and Jenny's mother. 

 

She's co-lead so pretty much every episode should be some mixture of  Abbie or Crane-centric. It's odd to have one Very Special Episode to explain the backstory of a lead character two seasons in.

[cyan]

Also, I really wish the tradition of "creepiest damn building in town, half of it falling apart and the rest icy cold to the touch, is the perfect place to pursue mental health" trope could be retired. 

It's actually a pretty oppressive trope - as if people with mental illness need to be dehumanized further. Those places are not "asylums", they are hospitals, like any regular hospital, where you get regular ol' health care, not gothic edifices where reality no longer applies simply because the residents have mental illnesses.

On a different note, what if Mama helping Abbie and Jenny was a whole-season thread? That slowly built up so that while the Cranes face their loss (one of them has GOT to be toast by end of season, please Lord), Abbie and Jenny face theirs. Because the reunion was a loss - they gained a sane, caring mother and lost her at the same time.

[BigEasygirl]

On a different note, what if Mama helping Abbie and Jenny was a whole-season thread? That slowly built up so that while the Cranes face their loss (one of them has GOT to be toast by end of season, please Lord), Abbie and Jenny face theirs. Because the reunion was a loss - they gained a sane, caring mother and lost her at the same time.

Lol @ at the bolded while completely seconding your plea. I really want to believe that the show is building up to this. I really, really do hope this is their intent even if the journey left lots to be desired. If not, they just wasted this entire season.

[RiddleyWalker]

It's actually a pretty oppressive trope - as if people with mental illness need to be dehumanized further. Those places are not "asylums", they are hospitals, like any regular hospital, where you get regular ol' health care, not gothic edifices where reality no longer applies simply because the residents have mental illnesses.

 

This is a very good point, Cyan. I'm not sure that this is a true trope though and I don't know that the point of it or the result is to dehumanize people with mental illness. I see it more as a reminder of our fears of being dehumanized if we (the audience) end up having a mental illness.

 

Our fears are what is appealed to here…the fear that we may end up in an institution like these. The mistreatment of those with mental illness has been something brought to the forefront since the 19th century (at least) and I think this "trope" is a continuation of this--our dismissal and lack of concern for these people. Any harm done by this type of depiction is to those who work in the mental health profession and minimizing their very real concern, care and professionalism. That being said, I think it continues to work well in certain situations if well done and does focus attention on the well-being of the actual patients with mental illnesses. 

Edited November 27, 2014 by RiddleyWalker