Glee Relationships: Taking the fun out of disfunctional!

[Ceeg]

 

I don't agree that Klaine wasn't written - from the series's perspective - as a big epic romance. It's just that the series has a particular view on what the big epic romance is, like school love is meant to be forever, the soulmates and endgame tropes. Finchel also cheated and went back and forth, and quarrelled for tootpaste-level things like Klaine (using the bathroom at Rachel's, don't remember which Season 3 episode it was). Brittana had squabbles and back and forths too, lbr. From the POV of the show, Klaine was always the big epic romance, and got the trials and tribulations edit. None of their midgames were even remotely framed as viable. I'm talking about the show's POV . What opinions various viewers formed is a different issue.

Clearly my definition of "epic romance" is different from RIB's. I guess their definition of "epic romance" is cheating, whining, inability to live together because of dumb bickering, inability to get married bc of dumb bickering, and moving onto your ex's former tormentor. And no one's midgame was framed as viable, because this show sucks.

 

I haven't done a re-watch in a long time, but Finn/Rachel never fucked someone else while they were together. They also squabbled, but resolved their issues over those small minor things. In Heart, they bickered over bathroom stuff, but by the end of the episode, had worked it out. Klaine were unable to overcome those issues though. Brittana never argued over petty things, either. Their only major disagreement was about Brittany not breaking up with Artie, and I think a lot of that had to do with Santana making herself vulnerable at Brittany's request, only to be rejected in a way. All their other minor problems (Brittany talking to abuela, the prom thing, Sam, seeing the wedding dress) were resolved within the same episode the problem appeared. Even Finchel's and Brittana's breakups were framed in a way so that they were each doing what was best for the other, in the short-term, so there was always an element of care there.

Finchel's larger issues, like Rachel going to NY and Finn staying in Lima, were still framed as life's obstacles getting in the way of this ~epic romance. Finn didn't move to New York only to realize that Rachel sings in the shower and it was too much for him to handle, or whatever.

 

I'm not necessarily saying that I think Finchel and Brittana were purposely conceived as being more "epic" than Klaine. I think the first 2 seasons of Klaine are pretty clear that the writers viewed Klaine as a huge romance. But when I look at the series, overall, it's hard for me to grasp how exactly Klaine, as a whole, were this huge epic romance. Even in the episode threads from this season, most people have speculated that RIB seem to have gotten tired of Klaine and their loud demanding fandom, so they wrote this utter shit for them, and then slapped them back together in someone else's wedding, and have now backgrounded them the rest of the series. Contrast that with Brittana this season, and it's night and day. Even Sam and Rachel's small arc this season was more thought out and caring than what Klaine got, and that ship started by hypnosis.  (Btw I can't believe I just typed that sentence)

 

Maybe it's all by accident, but I don't see how any writer can write everything they have for Klaine seasons 4-6 and still believe they are an epically romantic couple, with a wonderful, healthy relationship that will last 5eva. (And yes, I'm ignoring whatever flashforward nonsense is happening in the finale)  If I came in as a viewer in season 5, without ever watching Glee before, no way would I buy that Klaine are some hugely epic romance. It's just not in the text. If anything, I'd think they were a joke ship because of the inclusion of Crazy Sue as #1 Klaine Shipper.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Ceeg

[fakeempress]

I didn't agree only because you explicitly referred to the series' perspective. Purely from RIB's / series's perspective, Klaine is undoubtedly a big epic romance, and RIB always put some, often inane and misguided, pointers -- but they didn't think of them as inane and misguided! For instance, the sweeping dream-sequence Come What May in the midst of the Kurt-Adam story was a big flashing light from RIB how Kurt-Adam had nothing on the big epic Klaine; or Finn coming to NYC to fend off Brody and ended in a physical fight, the examples are numerous. 

 

I can say very assuredly for at least Finchel, Wemma, and Klaine, that ever since their inception they were always framed by the show as the big epic romances that were going to end the series, come what may (lol). It's wish fulfillment which was marred by really bad plotting and writing, I agree about that.

Edited March 17, 2015 by fakeempress

[Ceeg]

I didn't agree only because you explicitly referred to the series' perspective. Purely from RIB's / series's perspective, Klaine is undoubtedly a big epic romance, and RIB always put some, often inane and misguided, pointers -- but they didn't think of them as inane and misguided!

 

Sorry, I was unclear. I didn't mean from RIB's POV. I mean the perspective of looking at the series as a whole, rather than just the first couple of seasons. If you take the whole picture of Klaine, from season 2 to season 6. And I don't think that Klaine were consistently written as a big epic romance, if you look at the entirety of their journey. That could be because RIB are incompetent writers (and they are), but it could also be because they caved to fan demand and just shoved Klaine together at the end so they wouldn't have to hear it from their fans.

 

To me, endgame doesn't necessarily mean "big epic romance"

Edited March 17, 2015 by Ceeg

[fakeempress]

 

And I don't think that Klaine were consistently written as a big epic romance, if you look at the entirety of their journey. That could be because RIB are incompetent writers (and they are), but it could also be because they caved to fan demand and just shoved Klaine together at the end so they wouldn't have to hear it from their fans.

I don't think Klaine ended up back together because of the fans. For one, Ryan wanted his gay wedding and was always going to have it, with or without Brittana I might add. It was so clear to me, from the Klaine propping by the lesbian couple in late Season 4, and the super-romanticised proposal in 501. And in general, RIB's intentions and how they end up working for the viewers are two very different things. In terms of RIB's intentions, I don't think it can be doubted they saw and wrote Klaine as the big epic romance since its inception and throughout the series. It was just a badly written one which is where all the problems come from. I say it was always that for RIB, because of some stock big epic romance plotting (again, regardless of whether it makes sense or quality of execution): 1) the couple always gravitates back to each other, regardless; 2) the midgames are clearly framed as temporary roadblocks, I already said about Come What May which was so obvious a sign that Adam isn't for long, if the hookup at Wemma's wedding wasn't enough. Karofsky was an absurd choice in itself; 3) their love conquers all (lol): cheating, insecurities, incompatibilities, what have you.  There may be more but I can't think atm. I also think Finchel and Wemma followed the same pattern. Again, how well executed, different story.

Edited March 17, 2015 by fakeempress

[jaytee1812]

I think Brittana got their wedding so that Klaine could have theirs. I think the writers figured out they wanted Klaine at a wedding and decide to get married then. Brittana was the only likely option, it gave them the double gay wedding plus the only straight couple is Quick, and they obviously weren't going to give them screen time.

[fakeempress]

 

 

I am not making a straw man argument. Maybe you and I just have different definitions of the situation. As I clearly noted, yes the words "epic romance" was not used but when people are claiming wild superlatives and declaring amazing things about a relationship that had only just started with about four lines of dialogue, then yeah I inferred from that they clearly thought it was going to be some amazing relationship. It wasn't saying, Adam seems nice and he'd certainly be better than Blaine.

As I noted, immediately after Adam's first appearance on the show, it was essay length posts after posts about how much he clearly appreciated Kurt more than anyone else had on the show (seriously, forget Blaine. According to some no one had appreciated and acknowledged Kurt's talent like Adam, ever on the show),  it was a better connection than Kurt had ever had, there was a maturity and closeness like never before and on and on. I do not see these kinds of comments as seriously thinking this was going to be the half assed mess it eventually turned out to me.

 

I disagreed with the label "big epic romance" used for Adam-Kurt, it isn't applicable in any way. The OP decided I had amnesia about that on TWOP, while you decided not the words but the notion was there. However, what you repeat here in the bolded is not the Kurt-Adam supporters' notion of "big epic romance", but their notion of "healthy and  mature" (as in better). Big epic and better are two very different things. Slapping an arbitrary label as the OP did doesn't make it a fact that Kurt-Adam was ever thought of as big epic romance.

 

And Kurt-Blaine turned out to be the full-assed mess to end all messes, and yet never ceased to be framed by both the show and the Klainers as the big epic romance. 

Edited March 17, 2015 by fakeempress

[Ceeg]

I don't think Klaine ended up back together because of the fans. For one, Ryan wanted his gay wedding and was always going to have it, with or without Brittana I might add. It was so clear to me, from the Klaine propping by the lesbian couple in late Season 4, and the super-romanticised proposal in 501. And in general, RIB's intentions and how they end up working for the viewers are two very different things. In terms of RIB's intentions, I don't think it can be doubted they saw and wrote Klaine as the big epic romance since its inception and throughout the series. It was just a badly written one which is where all the problems come from. I say it was always that for RIB, because of some stock big epic romance plotting (again, regardless of whether it makes sense or quality of execution): 1) the couple always gravitates back to each other, regardless; 2) the midgames are clearly framed as temporary roadblocks, I already said about Come What May which was so obvious a sign that Adam isn't for long, if the hookup at Wemma's wedding wasn't enough. Karofsky was an absurd choice in itself; 3) their love conquers all (lol): cheating, insecurities, incompatibilities, what have you.  There may be more but I can't think atm. I also think Finchel and Wemma followed the same pattern. Again, how well executed, different story.

 

Yeah but I just think, if you really analyzed the Big 4 couples (Finchel, Klaine, Brittana, and Wemma) and compared and contrasted each one, Klaine are the only ones who ended up being utterly destroyed. Granted, Finchel was over after season 4, but I have to use what was presented on screen. None of the other couples even come close to the levels of dysfunction that Klaine suffer from. (And I honestly hated Finchel by the end of season 3 and I have no strong opinion on Wemma either way, so it's not like I ship all these ships BUT Klaine)

 

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't care if RIB thought Klaine  was a big epic romance and I don't care what the Klaine fandom thinks. RIB also thought it was totes cool to make a lesbian WOC character's coming out arc center around a straight white guy. Just because they thought it was a great concept doesn't mean it wasn't hugely offensive, gross, problematic, and horrible example for the viewing audience. But if you solely go by what is in the text, for Klaine, I'm not seeing an "epic romance" for the ages. IMO an epic romance needs actual romance and level of actual care for each other. The couple also need to actually like each other, as people. And, I'm honestly not sure that Klaine do anymore. Yeah, they started off as friends, but so do a lot of people who end up destroyed by a relationship. 

 

And I still stand by my opinion that, if a viewer was watching season 5 and 6 in a vacuum, without seeing 1-4, Klaine would be viewed as nothing but a sad mistake and straddling the line between a joke and super unhealthy. 

 

I think there is a disconnect between what RIB think they're presenting and what RIB actually present.

[fakeempress]

 

I think there is a disconnect between what RIB think they're presenting and what RIB actually present.

I completely agree. RIB are lousy relationship writers fullstop. 

[Sara2009]

I've been saying for awhile now that Kurt/Blaine's relationship reminds me of Will/Terri.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Sara2009

[caracas1914]

There was so so many things that RIB did wrong with Klaine, that I agree with Ceeg that while they fail at ALL  relationships, there was a special level of epic disconnect for how they treated Klaine on screen.

 

Kurt and Blaine seemed not only  incompatible, with their myriad of  insecurities and personality traits, but actually toxic and unhealthy.   To me it reached it's nadir, not with Blaine's cheating or even the Karofsky relationship, but with the writers actually portraying Blaine in "Tested" as wanting to "fatten" Kurt up in order to make himself feel better about his own body issues.  Seriously, what the fuck.

 

So while the show sowed them with salt in Season 5 and 6, even in Season 4 when Adam was introduced part of the appeal of the admittedly midgame LI  was the fact  that he wasn't Blaine.  He wasn't contrasted  to Kurt as a more masculine gay, he wasn't someone who was compared as more appealing to others, and he wasn't even portrayed as competing or rivaling Kurt at even a more superficial level. 

 

So while Truthaboutluv is right that there were many things Blaine did FIRST, (and some tried to overlook) it's also undeniable that  this new midgame LI didn't have the baggage that the Klaine relationship by then had, so I find it reasonable that some fans looked forward to exploring this new relationship, even if they knew it had an expiration date.   The desire WAS a reaction to the Klaine dynamics, so I think that can't be minimized, which goes back to how the writers wrote and framed Klaine.

 

In the same vein, Brody had an apeal to some becuase he wasn't Finn ( and he wasn't  as self centered as Jesse St. James); initially written as  a character seemingly OK with Rachel's ambitions and yet with performing arts goals of his own.

 

Personally the contrast in new midgame LI's with what transpired before is deliberate, if of course horribly executed and resolved on Glee.

Edited March 17, 2015 by caracas1914

[heyerchick]

I think Klaine went off the rails, or rather was driven into the ground, when (1) Blaine cheated (2) tried to shift the blame/responsibility for his cheating onto Kurt. As others have said, which characters/couples *haven't* cheated on this show, in differing degrees. But this particular scenario really damaged their A Capella Dreamboat. It drove off shippers who felt much more strongly about the pairing than I did. The backlash was immediate, the backtracking from the writers palpable on screen. With their usual ham-fistedness, having Blaine praised as a 'hero,' mooning after Sam, etc, only seemed to cement the ill-feeling. And then, rather than tackle it head on, or with any sort of emotional truth, we had the freight-train hit of not-together/together/engaged within the space of an episode. I have honest-to-god never seen anything so narratively shoddy on television in my life. Although not-together/together/married runs it a close second. And not one single issue aired, let alone resolved. It is, to me, as true to say that as strongly as any characterisation has been established on this show, it's been established that Kurt can't stand to live with Blaine for any period of time, as it is to say that Blaine's neediness and insecurity are pathological. Try as I might, I cannot come up with any pairing on any show, no matter how shitty the show, that's been written with such slapdash narrative neglect it can only be described as contemptuous.

[heyerchick]

Heh. This just popped up on tumblr. Seems to perfectly encapsulate the shaky relationship this group of writers has with, well, any given chapter in Screenwriting For Dummies...

 

[fakeempress]

 

So while Truthaboutluv is right that there were many things Blaine did FIRST, (and some tried to overlook) it's also undeniable that  this new midgame LI didn't have the baggage that the Klaine relationship by then had, so I find it reasonable that some fans looked forward to exploring this new relationship, even if they knew it had an expiration date.   The desire WAS a reaction to the Klaine dynamics, so I think that can't be minimized, which goes back to how the writers wrote and framed Klaine

 

There was definitely this backlash reaction to Klaine/the cheating, and it was that Adam was thought off as "better for Kurt" in each and every way. But should Adam ever have replaced Blaine as the endgame LI for Kurt, I think Kurt-Adam would have suffered a similar lousy treatment as Klaine did. RIB even threw "better" Adam under the bus  though the narrative didn't require it (the off-hand remark that he threw Kurt out of the Apples). 

Edited March 17, 2015 by fakeempress

[caracas1914]

RIB even threw "better" Adam under the bus  though the narrative didn't require it (the off-hand remark that he threw Kurt out of the Apples). 

 

In hindsight I think it actually makes Adam look better. At least he showed he "cared" enough to react to his LI going back to his ex with a rushed engagement and him not being thrilled with it, displaying anger and irritation.

 

That makes more sense than Kurt nonchalantly hooking back up with Blaine overlooking that, as the show put it, Blaine  was the Moped being fucked by  the UHAUL that had bullied, tormented and stole the first kiss of Kurt's. Hell he moved in with him and even threw it in Kurt's face.

 

Adam's anger makes him look healthy in comparison with how the show made Kurt overlook the serial fucking/cheating of Blaine.

 

Let's not even get into Karofsky's non angry  and spineless response to Blaine's cheating or Walter's letting Kurt go so easily. 

Edited March 17, 2015 by caracas1914

[fakeempress]

 

Adam's anger makes him look healthy in comparison with how the show made Kurt overlook the serial fucking/cheating of Blaine.

Personally  I thought this reaction was right out of Blaine's song book (I mean specifically DWS), compared to how Adam was presented until then.

 

But in terms of story, I saw it as a side attempt to justify the Klaine reunion. 

Edited March 17, 2015 by fakeempress

[shantown]

Heh. This just popped up on tumblr. Seems to perfectly encapsulate the shaky relationship this group of writers has with, well, any given chapter in Screenwriting For Dummies...

 

This is perfect. Source?

[fakeempress]

 

Let's not even get into Karofsky's non angry  and spineless response to Blaine's cheating or Walter's letting Kurt go so easily.

Add Mercedes being so impossibly invested in Sam  and Rachel, and you have the cheerleading ex trifecta of Season 6. 

Edited March 18, 2015 by fakeempress

[Florinaldo]

I'll respond in Relationship, because the labels are confused here.

I think that part of your confusion may arise from the fact that your argument has shifted and morphed somewhat. You went from "I have no idea where the notion of Kurt-Adam as a supposed big epic romance comes from" to "I was there and I know how the anti-Blaine Kurt fans saw Adam"; so it turns out that you do remember how the relationship was viewd by a number of fans.

 

I think that the strawman argument you accused truthaboutluv of making was simply that poster stating the facts as they remember it and drawing the logical conclusions (which I agreed with).

 

I never used the term big epic romance as a quote from way past then; it was my characterisation of how things were stated by some at the time Adam was introduced, hence the absence of quotation marks. And I still stand by it. I think it represents quite well the "wild superlatives" and "declaring amazing things about a relationship that had only just started with about four lines of dialogue", as well as the "essay length posts after posts about how much he clearly appreciated Kurt more than anyone else had on the show" or "elevating Adam's brief first appearance to some monumental status", examples truthaboutluv recalled upthread. Not to mention those who still hang on to such an exacerbated view of the pairing as any Web search will show, especially on tumblr.

 

[Florinaldo]

I disagreed with the label "big epic romance" used for Adam-Kurt, it isn't applicable in any way. The OP decided I had amnesia about that on TWOP, while you decided not the words but the notion was there.

I agree that the label is not applicable to the relationship as depicted, but as the OP in question I fully stand by it to describe how some reacted to it at the time. I will not repeat here the post I just made in the Let's Try To Market This thread (from which this discussion was imported in case anyone is confused), in which I leaned heavily on examples listed there by truthaboutluv.

 

I think that the notion was very present at the time, and it led to "a lot of rewriting of canon and history" and "just a whole lot of superlatives and praising from what was at best 3 or 4 scenes and maybe four lines total" as that other poster said.

 

You seem to cling to the fact that the label was not used at the time, whereas I did not present it as a quote. Since I had in mind the reception of the pairing by a segment of fandom, I think that the notion is indeed very crucial because I see it as underlying in great part how some fans overamplified the results; they went much beyond just saying that this was a healthier and more mature relationship for Kurt. And it still goes on.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Florinaldo

[caracas1914]

Add Mercedes being so impossibly invested in Sam  and Rachel, and you have the cheerleading ex trifecta of Season 6.

 

OMG, what did they do to poor Mercedes!

[phoenixrising]

I think what SOMETIMES saves Finchel, Wemma, and Brittana, but not Klaine, is a certain level of chemistry. Those couples had it, and Klaine did not. Kurt always looks uncomfortable around Blaine, at least in season 3 or 4 on (that first kiss was still pretty good as much as I don't ship them). The only person I saw have romantic chemistry with Kurt was Elliot and he obviously wasn't going to even get midgame. Well, I kind of saw it with Karofsky too but they would've had to do a LOT of work to make that happen. There's no one that really sticks out as having chemistry with Blaine to me, but Blaine needed something other than Kurt and I would've taken it.

I'll also agree that Tested was my ultimate stopping point with Klaine. That was really messed up, and he hasn't redeemed himself for me since (although he hasn't bugged me as much since).

I'll also further agree that Klaine is meant to be a big epic romance, but the writers/nonexistent chemistry in later seasons makes it just seem sad. At least up until season 6, in which it felt like they got them married for the hell of it and to shut fans up, but not without poking fun at them along the way (although klainers I've seen didn't mind it which I do not understand).

[fakeempress]

 

You seem to cling to the fact that the label was not used at the time, whereas I did not present it as a quote. Since I had in mind the reception of the pairing by a segment of fandom, I think that the notion is indeed very crucial because I see it as underlying in great part how some fans overamplified the results; they went much beyond just saying that this was a healthier and more mature relationship for Kurt. And it still goes on.

No. Kurt-Adam wasn't seen as a big epic romance either in word or in notion. I already said the big epic romance was how Klaine was seen, and since the anti-Klainers saw that big epic romance as bankrupt, they didn't entertain the same notion for Adam in any way. They instead were ecstatic that Kurt-Adam was supposedly this better, healthy and mature relationship, and all their superlatives and exaggerations (whatever they were), were focused on these notions: better, healthy, mature. Not big epic romance. These are two very different concepts for how relationships are viewed. I wish you didn't cross-post in two threads so I have to repeat, but we had a conversation with truthaboutluv about the romantic hero and the epic romance, and how it doesn't equal healthy or mature, on several examples (Delena from The Vampire Diaries was one iirc). 

 

If you say something is such and such, that's what you say. Own your words and give proper supporting arguments which don't invent or rewrite fandom's or anyone's opinions -- or clearly revise your opinion. 

 

From the Media thread:

 

I think that part of your confusion may arise from the fact that your argument has shifted and morphed somewhat. You went from "I have no idea where the notion of Kurt-Adam as a supposed big epic romance comes from" to "I was there and I know how the anti-Blaine Kurt fans saw Adam"; so it turns out that you do remember how the relationship was viewd by a number of fans.

 

No confusion at all. I was on TWOP at the time and as I already said for people who can read, Adam was never seen there, in word or notion, or any kind of summary of opinion, as a big epic romance by any group. That's what I said I do remember, again for people who can read. My having no idea where the notion comes from is still as much intact as it was. So, try as I might, I can't see any shifting or morphing on my side, but I'm used to this kind of straw manning coming from you by now.

Edited March 18, 2015 by fakeempress

[galax-arena]

Speaking as someone who only lurked on the TWOP Glee threads in a very cursory fashion, my impression was that a lot of anti-Klainers were hoping for Kurt and Adam to be this big romance. Not epic, necessarily, but you know, something that'd last for a while instead of being over with in a few eps. (Anything to get away from Klaine!) But that's not the same thing as actually believing that they qualified as such. 

[fakeempress]

Well, any ship fandom hopes and motivates itself for their ship to be lasting, or at least come to life. The Kummers were waving the banner of "Sam will be gay/bi any moment now", all the way until the Klaine kiss.  

Edited March 18, 2015 by fakeempress

[Florinaldo]

(...)

Own your words and give proper supporting arguments which don't invent or rewrite fandom's or anyone's opinions

(...)

The bulk of your posts give a whole new dimension of meaning to the word "slippery". First you accuse me of making things up, then you go though the motions of injecting some smoke and mirrors nuances, and you are now back at accusations of falsifying the record. This despite corroboration from others who also recalled that there was indeed way back then sudden celebration from little concrete screen time, accompanied by exaggerated comments about Adam-Kurt, described as "wild superlatives" or "elevating Adam's brief first appearance to some monumental status" for example. I gave my recollections of events and my interpretation, which I described in a manner I still stand by as a characterisation that correctly represents how I saw and still see those views which came from a sub-segment of fandom. As even incompetent fortune tellers with their fake powers could safely have predicted, you disagree. Perhaps your obsessive vivisection of posts blocks some of the basic realities of debate, like the fact that different people can come to different conclusions from the same set of events and describe them differently with different wordings.

 

I can't even derive any special status from the accusation of straw manning since you also directed it at another poster yesterday.

 

I have come to the conclusion that this exchange is akin to putting opposing opinions to people like the Pope or L. Ron Hubbard, whose status of assumed infallibility brooks no contrary opinion.

[Cranberry]

If you're going to continue this debate about whether or not random posters on other forums many moons ago thought that Kurt and Adam were some great love, do it without insulting each other. Otherwise, find another topic. Thanks!