S06.E07: Family Matters

[Guest]

Dean becomes suspicious of Samuel's motives, but Sam isn't sold on the idea that their grandfather is doing anything wrong. The brothers go along on a hunt with Samuel and the other Campbells, but things go terribly awry.

 

 

[Demented Daisy]

Maybe I missed it (a distinct possibility), but how did Crowley pull Gramps from Heaven?  It doesn't seem right that a demon (even a powerful one) should be able to take souls that are already in Heaven.  

 

I know that Cas later said that he's the one who pulled Sam out of the pit, but did he ever say if he was also the one who tapped Samuel?

[DittyDotDot]

I don't know DD, it seems rather unlikely unless it's what's under that spoiler tag. Even then it's rather iffy. Didn't it take many, many angels to rescue and resurrect Dean from Hell? And Adam was brought back by an arc angel, right? I just didn't realize Crowley

or Cass for that matter

was that powerful. I always wonder if Grampy Campbell was pulled up or down?  Might've been interesting to learn that Grampy had been in Hell--although he'd been down there for a few decades so would probably be a demon at this point--another wasted opportunity?

 

I also wonder why it makes sense to torture these Alphas in attempts to find Purgatory? Just because they go there when they die, why would they know how to access it? If they knew how to open it up, why don't they do just that and let out all their children? I just can't quite figure out the logic to this whole storyline.

 

Another episode I'd give a solid meh to. Best part of the episode is Rick Worthy giving Sam and Dean a philosophy lesson. Oh yeah, the beginning where we learn what's wrong with Sam is at least forward movement. And Old Blue Eyes got his cameo in too, so there's also that. ::shrugs::

Edited November 18, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[GirlyGeek]

A pretty forgettable episode, though I do like Rick Worthy.

Liked the beginning and finding out about Sam's soul. It's, again, interesting to watch RoboSam pretend to be regular Sam. He's taking cues from his own memories of himself, and from Dean, and basically mimicking what he thinks he supposed to do and say. He even puts on the right faces and looks, but with kind of dead/blank eyes. Actually, in retrospect, pretty good work from Jared.

It was tough for me to see the first time around because not knowing what was up with Sam made it seem like Jared was missing the mark or something... Idk. But on rewatch, I find the subtle (and some not so subtle) hints to be pretty interesting and well done.

Crowleys always a good time in my book, too, so there's that. But over all not anything I'd pick to rewatch.

Also, if Crowleys so all powerful, why doesn't he just snatch up the alphas himself? He's got demons at his disposal that I'm sure could make it happen, too. The whole Purgatory plan, and torturing the info out of the bad guys (who I don't even understand why they would know this info) just makes no sense.

Edited March 9, 2015 by GirlyGeek

[Hanahope]

So I get the idea that Sam was trying to appear normal, taking cues from Dean and others on how to act.  And I get he doesn't have a soul, which explains why he doesn't feel emotion, doesn't care what happens to others, a complete sociopath.

But, even if Sam doesn't care what's right or wrong, he still should know what's right and wrong.  its not like he's been souless his whole life.  He has his memories and knows what he's done before.  Being souless doesn't give him a good excuse for his actions, he still knew his actions were wrong most of the time, he just didn't care.  but he still knew. (a good example, is Julia in the Magicians, when she was without her shade - she didn't care about her acts, but she still knew some were not good things to do - and when she was faced with a choice in a couple of instances, she did act more in a good way). so yeah, Dean still is well within his rights to be made at Sam and not trust him.

And speaking of the Magicians, Hey!  Its Dean Fogg, and he can see!  The alpha vamp was cool.  Can't wait to find out more about him.

I agree that how would the alphas know where Pergatory is if they don't go there until they die?

And I suppose Crowley is now considered the "king" of hell gives him some extra power, but still I wouldn't think it would be enough to pull someone down from heaven.  And if Lucifer was in the cage before (i.e. they had to 'put him back in the cage'), then who was leading hell before?

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, Hanahope said:

So I get the idea that Sam was trying to appear normal, taking cues from Dean and others on how to act.  And I get he doesn't have a soul, which explains why he doesn't feel emotion, doesn't care what happens to others, a complete sociopath.

But, even if Sam doesn't care what's right or wrong, he still should know what's right and wrong.  its not like he's been souless his whole life.  He has his memories and knows what he's done before.  Being souless doesn't give him a good excuse for his actions, he still knew his actions were wrong most of the time, he just didn't care.  but he still knew.

I generally think of Soulless Sam as Sam a sociopath--it's Sam unhindered by a conscience. So, yeah, he knows his actions are wrong, but he doesn't care that they're wrong. In some ways I found it really interesting because when you think about it, a good chunk of their lives are doing things that are considered wrong--credit card fraud, impersonating law enforcement, etc.--so, if you don't have a conscience (or in this case, a soul) how do you judge when it's okay to break the rules or not? 

They weren't always consistent with it and sometimes took it too far, but I thought it was an interesting question.

But, yeah, Dean has every right to be angry. 

[Hanahope]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

a good chunk of their lives are doing things that are considered wrong--credit card fraud, impersonating law enforcement, etc.

Yeah, I sortof appreciate that they don't show us the credit card fraud stuff.  We've seen them hustle a bit at pool, which I've no problem with, but I do wonder if they're stealing credit cards from innocent people, or limiting themselves to fraud against more unsavory type people.  IOW, are they hurting innocent people by stealing from them? obviously its bad enough innocents sometimes die while the boys are killing demons, etc.  The impersonating law enforcement isn't hurting anyone.

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

Yeah, I sortof appreciate that they don't show us the credit card fraud stuff.  We've seen them hustle a bit at pool, which I've no problem with, but I do wonder if they're stealing credit cards from innocent people, or limiting themselves to fraud against more unsavory type people.  IOW, are they hurting innocent people by stealing from them? obviously its bad enough innocents sometimes die while the boys are killing demons, etc.  The impersonating law enforcement isn't hurting anyone.

I thought they were filling out applications with bogus names and addresses they made up. I don't know how that works for them anymore, but that's how I understood it in the early days of the show. Hustling pool doesn't bother me, but it's not honest either. Impersonating law enforcement isn't hurting anyone in their case, but they are breaking the law by doing it.

So, when is it okay to be dishonest or break the law or not? Especially when you've lived most your life being dishonest and breaking laws?

[Hanahope]

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I thought they were filling out applications with bogus names and addresses they made up.

Ah that would make sense, works with their fake driver's licenses and cell phone contracts.

[bettername2come]

Did Misha get a haircut? He looks good. Heh. Dean called Cas their wingman. Dean, don't say "I thought we had something special" to a cousin. Even sarcastic, it's weird. I think soulless Sam was very much "ends justify the means." Not exactly evil because he knows the technical right vs wrong because of his memories and his upbringing but can't grasp the subtleties of morality. Like chaotic neutral. And as Dean points out, he doesn't have gut instincts.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

If Sam and Dean have been working cases together for the past couple weeks - given that Dean hadn't been home to Lisa in at least that amount of time prior to last ep, how did Dean not realize that Sam wasn't sleeping at all?  I presume they were sharing a hotel room like they used to.  Unless Sam was faking sleep until he knew that Dean was out.  I don't understand why not having a soul would mean that Sam's physical body still didn't need rest though.  To me, he should also have not been eating then.  

Heh.  Love the Seinfeld reference from Dean.

That's saying something if SoullessSam scares Grampy Campbell, cause Grampy's one scary dude himself - especially those eyebrows.  But how well could Grampy really have 'known' Sam if Sam didn't have his soul?

Who was the woman in the house and why was she calling for Dean?  That was weird.  

I'm rather surprised that Dean didn't just pull his gun on Sam when he pulled to the side of the road.  As cagey as Sam was acting, I probably would have.

Monster or not, I always did like the alpha vamp.  It's too bad we didn't more of him.  

I'm with the posters above who question that Dean especially didn't question that Crowley pulled Samuel out of heaven.  Unless Samuel wasn't in heaven.  But then, as someone said, Samuel should have also been a demon.  Or that Crowley said he could shove Sam right back in the hole.  It took the rings of the four horsemen to open the cage to shove Lucifer in, but Crowley's just going to snap his fingers and do it?  'King of Hell' or not, they should have been calling all kinds of bs on that.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

So if Crowley is now King of Hell (yeah, I'm a little slow this morning)  S12 spoiler:

Spoiler

I guess this is when, in the time line, he gave the spear to Ramiel - wonder if he got it after Balthazar stole the weapons from heaven?

Edited August 16, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
added season spoiler

[Wayward Son]

4 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

So if Crowley is now King of Hell (yeah, I'm a little slow this morning)  S12 spoiler:

  Hide contents

I guess this is when, in the time line, he gave the spear to Ramiel - wonder if he got it after Balthazar stole the weapons from heaven?

It would have happened prior to Weekend at Bobby's at the earliest, as the demon Bobby was torturing mentioned he was the king of hell. It's kinda surprising Bobby didn't mention that tidbit to the brothers though. Perhaps he thought she was lying.

Although, personally, I assume the scene in question happened long before s6 even started. 

[DittyDotDot]

25 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Although, personally, I assume the scene in question happened long before s6 even started. 

Yeah, I'd say it happened fairly quickly after Lucifer and Michael got locked in the cage because

Spoiler

that's how Crowley became king of Hell-by making his deal with Ramiel.

Without leadership, Hell would've went...well, to hell, long before now. 

28 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

It's kinda surprising Bobby didn't mention that tidbit to the brothers though. Perhaps he thought she was lying.

Actually, Crowley says it himself, so I don't think Bobby thought she was lying. But, didn't Sam and Dean know? I seem to recall all a comment from Dean where he said he got the newsletter and all, maybe that was later in the season, though?

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Who was the woman in the house and why was she calling for Dean?  That was weird.  

You mean the vampire girl? Wasn't she in the visions Dean had when he was "connected" to the Alpha back in Live Free or Twihard? I think she was just one of the Alpha's very, very old entourage.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

It would have happened prior to Weekend at Bobby's at the earliest, as the demon Bobby was torturing mentioned he was the king of hell. It's kinda surprising Bobby didn't mention that tidbit to the brothers though. Perhaps he thought she was lying.

Although, personally, I assume the scene in question happened long before s6 even started. 

47 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Yeah, I'd say it happened fairly quickly after Lucifer and Michael got locked in the cage because

  Reveal hidden contents

that's how Crowley became king of Hell-by making his deal with Ramiel.

Without leadership, Hell would've went...well, to hell, long before now. 

Actually, Crowley says it himself, so I don't think Bobby thought she was lying. But, didn't Sam and Dean know? I seem to recall all a comment from Dean where he said he got the newsletter and all, maybe that was later in the season, though?

You mean the vampire girl? Wasn't she in the visions Dean had when he was "connected" to the Alpha back in Live Free or Twihard? I think she was just one of the Alpha's very, very old entourage.

taking the King of Hell discussion to All Seasons.

Yeah, I meant the vampire girl (as she got her head chopped off shortly after calling for Dean.)  I can't remember if she was in Dean's vision or not.  I just thought it weird that she called out for him now that he's not one of the alpha vamps 'children' anymore.  

[DittyDotDot]

32 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Yeah, I meant the vampire girl (as she got her head chopped off shortly after calling for Dean.)  I can't remember if she was in Dean's vision or not.  I just thought it weird that she called out for him now that he's not one of the alpha vamps 'children' anymore.  

Yeah, I'm pretty sure she was in Dean's vision earlier, as was the house where they captured the Alpha, as I recall. I got the impression Dean started having flashbacks when he saw the house, and I also got the impression Dean still had some sort of link with them. I'm not sure if they had planned more on this and it got dropped or if they were just trying to have some continuation here. 

It could just be that she remembered Dean and was trying to appeal to him as once being one of them? Dean was clearly off-kilter between Sam's soullessness, Samuel being so sketchy and seeing the house that was in his vision, it could be she was just trying to screw with Dean in that moment hoping he would save her?

Edited August 16, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Wayward Son]

On 8/16/2017 at 2:32 PM, DittyDotDot said:

Yeah, I'd say it happened fairly quickly after Lucifer and Michael got locked in the cage because

  Reveal hidden contents

that's how Crowley became king of Hell-by making his deal with Ramiel.

Actually, Crowley says it himself, so I don't think Bobby thought she was lying. But, didn't Sam and Dean know? I seem to recall all a comment from Dean where he said he got the newsletter and all, maybe that was later in the season, though?

Actually, Crowley never directly states it himself during the episode. The closest he comes to confirming the demon's Intel is his lack of argument when Bobby refers to him as "king of the dirt bags (demons) ". It is the demon who is tortured by Bobby that reveals the info about Crowley's new position. The exchange from Weekend at Bobby's goes as follows: 

Quote

CROSSROADS DEMON: You don't get it. He's the King.

Bobby burns her again.

BOBBY: King of the Crossroads. I've heard the speech.

CROSSROADS DEMON: (groaning in pain) No. King of Hell.

 

The show gave me the impression Dean was still unaware of Crowley's new position by the time of Family Matters as the two share this exchange. 

 

Quote

Dean: No, Cas says it takes big-time mojo to pull something like that off, and you're nothing but a punk-ass crossroads demon.

Crowley: Was a punk-ass crossroads demon. Now? King of hell. Believe me, I've got the mojo. I snap my fingers, Sam gets his soul back. Or you can be...You, and I shove Sam right back in the hole. Can't imagine what it's like in there... and I can imagine so many things. So, we clear? Me, Charlie... you, angels. Job's simple enough -- bring me creatures. Aim high on the food chain, please. Everybody wins. It's been a pleasure. See you soon.

 

So that is why I was saying I found it surprising that Bobby failed to mention Crowley's position to Dean between Weekend at Bobby's and Family Matters. At a meta level, I assume the writers wanted Dean to find out from Crowley in a dramatic manner, but within the world of the show it doesn't really make sense unless he thought the demon was lying to him. 

 

*Show dialogue comes from the episode transcripts for Weekend at Bobby's and Family Matters on the superwiki.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Wayward Son

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

Actually, Crowley never directly states it himself during the episode. The closest he comes to confirming the demon's Intel is his lack of argument when Bobby refers to him as "king of the dirt bags (demons) ". It is the demon who is tortured by Bobby that reveals the info about Crowley's new position.

But later in the episode Crowley and Bobby discuss his new position and Crowley wallows in how difficult it is to rule demons. So, I don't think Bobby thought it might not be true.

[Iju]

i just realised how much more of a torture this is. bring a body back, but keep the soul in hell. sam's been trapped a whole year in hell, a whole lot longer than dean's time. 4 months is 40 years right? 12 months is....i must refrain a shudder.

aw, i liked dean's "Hey" to sam when he got in the car. "You really thought I wouldn't come back?" "I had it 60/40." 

never, ever trusted grandpappy and co. i'm fully with dean on the no trust side of things. besides just because they are related doesn't mean they have to bond. screw that. and he knew about sam's souless problem the whole time. snake. so crowley had his soul the whole time. DANGIT ALL. if we knew ahead of time bobby could have made him give back sam's soul!

favourite lines:

"Where do you think we go?"

"Legoland?"

"If we get through this, we're going to have a hell of a family meeting."

[The Companion]

In Two and a Half Men, I wondered what the hell gate security was doing. They didn't use salt or holy water to verify the returning people weren't possessed. I guess the answer is because plot. Otherwise, how do you have a fenced compound while failing basic security.

I thought this was an okay episode. I am relieved we have the Sam has no soul stuff out in the open. I actually liked King Vampire a lot. Not sure I understand the point of purgatory as a goal.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, The Companion said:

In Two and a Half Men, I wondered what the hell gate security was doing. They didn't use salt or holy water to verify the returning people weren't possessed. I guess the answer is because plot. Otherwise, how do you have a fenced compound while failing basic security.

And this is what really bugs me about Christian having been a demon the whole time.  You shouldn't be able to be around hunters for over a year without detection.  If nothing else that whole bunker should have been full of devil's traps that Christian would have either been caught in, or really been obvious about avoiding All. The. Time.

[The Companion]

13 minutes ago, Katy M said:

And this is what really bugs me about Christian having been a demon the whole time.  You shouldn't be able to be around hunters for over a year without detection.  If nothing else that whole bunker should have been full of devil's traps that Christian would have either been caught in, or really been obvious about avoiding All. The. Time.

I mean, at least hold team meetings in the bunker. Am I right? 

[MagnusHex]

"Of course - your problems always come first."

OUCH. Castiel's right though. Dean's been a self-centered dick. Plus, he's surprised a woman could speak her mind. How 1950s. Is this The Twilight Zone or just your typical CW sexism?

I like that Gwen survived though, out of all the redshirt Campbells. She's at least the one with the most personality among all of them (and the only female character with personality this season). Here's hoping she'd survive though because I still stand by my initial desire for more recurring characters who are hunters we could have our spotlight on instead of just Sam and Dean hogging the camera all the time. I get it's their show and I get that we got a Bobby episode not long ago, but variety is the spice of life.

Crowley being the main antagonist oddly makes me like him even more. lmao Obviously, demons, and especially Crowley, are not to be trusted, so the smart choice for Dean would have been to stab Crowley anyway since Sam's supposed to be dead in the first place. Just saying. Dean could run the show alone, as we've established in my post for the last episode.

The whole soulless issue seems arbitrary by pop culture standards anyway. One could argue that the T-800 lacks a soul since he's just a machine, yet even he could be programmed to be an ally. Sam seems to possess a similar capability to learn from his mistakes, so he could probably learn some semblance of human empathy as well even if it's fake empathy; just needs a little practice.

I don't mind Purgatory being the goal, since it's always cool to explore yet another biblical location, especially one related to Dante. I doubt Crowley just wants it for real estate though. The most obvious answer is that he's looking to secure the location as an insurance in case he gets sent there someday, like all good little demons.

3/5 for the episode. I like the twist, but I would like to see more done with it first, because Supernatural, like many similar shows like it, tends to build up the hype with cool concepts but fail to deliver. The Alpha was kinda cool, so I was hoping he'd be a bigger threat (or at least had his history explored more), but alas.