S10.E01: Black

[The Companion]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

If we're going there, then strictly speaking, Dean also honored what Sam wanted, since Sam both told him he 'saw the light at the end of the tunnel' and, he chose to stop the trials and live (despite blaming Dean for that decision later). 🙂

Total agreement with the rogue angel side of things bringing the story down.

Actual spoiler

  Reveal spoiler

And given how short Demon Dean's time turns out to be, it's even more egregious to waste it on Castiel and Hannah.

 

I am never gonna endorse Sam's angst speeches from last season and particularly his blaming Dean for stopping the trials, which I think was terrible writing. There was a way to have him be upset about the consent issue and to be upset about the fallout, and the writers completely blew it. 

 

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, The Companion said:

There was a way to have him be upset about the consent issue and to be upset about the fallout, and the writers completely blew it. 

Yes, have Sam talk about Dean's lying for weeks (months?) that had Sam thinking that he was going crazy - or worse, going evil again - but I don't think the writers wanted to go that route, because then Sam would have actually had a legitimate point instead of a straw man's argument.***

However, unfortunately, Sam did call Crowley in the finale, so even though technically here in this episode - in my opinion anyway - Sam is not doing what Dean did^^^ that ship already sailed in the season 9 finale (which is one of the reasons I pretty much hate it.)
 

*** I can't say any more about that without getting into trouble so I won't.

^^^ because being a demon is a whole other animal. This isn't just bringing someone back to life from a probable peaceful afterlife. This is Dean's soul - twisted and demonized - potentially doing who knows what kind of damage that Sam knows non-demon Dean wouldn't want. And the longer Dean's soul stays demonized, the potentially longer it and/or Dean's regular soul or psyche might be damaged.

It's a bit like Bobby and Castiel's argument that Soulless Sam would be hurt by bringing back Sam's soul. Yeah, and? Wouldn't Sam's actual soul / being be getting hurt by leaving it in the box with Lucifer? Gee Bobby and Cas - way to not give a fig about Sam's soul, dudes, and consider accepting the soulless figment walking around as Sam instead. Nice.

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

If we're going there, then strictly speaking, Dean also honored what Sam wanted, since Sam both told him he 'saw the light at the end of the tunnel' and, he chose to stop the trials and live (despite blaming Dean for that decision later). 🙂

Total agreement with the rogue angel side of things bringing the story down.

Actual spoiler

  Reveal spoiler

And given how short Demon Dean's time turns out to be, it's even more egregious to waste it on Castiel and Hannah.

 

And FWIW, I absolutely agree that Dean would not want to be a demon. I am 100% glad that Sam wants to cure Dean, and that's how it should be. I only have a problem with the hypocrisy of it.

I tend to less think of this particular instance as hypocrisy for the comparison I made above concerning Soulless Sam. Dean's soul might still be in his body - unlike with Soulless Sam - but it's been damaged enough that it is no longer representative of what made Dean actually Dean. And even though, yes, technically Dean chose to get the mark of Cain, I kind of doubt he would have been okay with the fact that it would turn him into a demon.

It's likely Sam still would've tried to get Dean back if he didn't think Crowley did something to him and then found out that he was turned into a demon rather than Dean had just died (and considering what we saw in "Brother's keeper" probably likely - hence the "I lied."), but in my opinion, wanting to cure demon Dean is not the same thing.

If Dean's body had simply been possessed by one of Crowley's flunkies - as Sam had thought originally - Sam maybe might have at that point just let Dean go after some time to consider his actions from the finale. We can't say for certain.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I tend to less think of this particular instance as hypocrisy for the comparison I made above concerning Soulless Sam. Dean's soul might still be in his body - unlike with Soulless Sam - but it's been damaged enough that it is no longer representative of what made Dean actually Dean. And even though, yes, technically Dean chose to get the mark of Cain, I kind of doubt he would have been okay with the fact that it would turn him into a demon.

It's likely Sam still would've tried to get Dean back if he didn't think Crowley did something to him and then found out that he was turned into a demon rather than Dean had just died (and considering what we saw in "Brother's keeper" probably likely - hence the "I lied."), but in my opinion, wanting to cure demon Dean is not the same thing.

If Dean's body had simply been possessed by one of Crowley's flunkies - as Sam had thought originally - Sam maybe might have at that point just let Dean go after some time to consider his actions from the finale. We can't say for certain

It's hypocritical based on the comparison of one 'knowing' what the other would have wanted under normal circumstances. And we can argue degrees of 'wrongness', but as much as Dean lied to Sam afterward (which was wrong, but with extenuating circumstances), Sam tortured meat suits and

Spoiler

tricked a (scumbag) human into selling his soul (also wrong with extenuating circumstances). The hypocrisy is in being willing to go to great, unethical lengths to save their sibling, but only one of them was willing to own it.

And as you pointed out, Sam was calling Crowley to deal when he believed Dean was 'only' dead and still in his room. While he was torturing meat suits/killing demons, he still didn't know Dean was a demon - he was trying to get information on Crowley's whereabouts. 

Edited January 13, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[The Companion]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Spoiler

It's hypocritical based on the comparison of one 'knowing' what the other would have wanted under normal circumstances. And we can argue degrees of 'wrongness', but as much as Dean lied to Sam afterward (which was wrong, but with extenuating circumstances), Sam tortured meat suits and tricked a (scumbag) human into selling his soul (also wrong with extenuating circumstances). The hypocrisy is in being willing to go to great, unethical lengths to save their sibling, but only one of them was willing to own it. And as you pointed out, Sam was calling Crowley to deal when he believed Dean was 'only' dead and still in his room. While he was torturing meat suits/killing demons/sacrificing scumbags, he still didn't know Dean was a demon - he was trying to get information on Crowley's whereabouts. 

 

I believe this should have spoiler tags for episode 3 (which I am part of the way through). 

Edited January 13, 2020 by The Companion
Edited for spoiler purposes

[gonzosgirrl]

36 minutes ago, The Companion said:

I believe this should have spoiler tags for episode 3 (which I am part of the way through). 

You are correct.  Edited.

[AwesomO4000]

39 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It's hypocritical based on the comparison of one 'knowing' what the other would have wanted under normal circumstances. And we can argue degrees of 'wrongness', but as much as Dean lied to Sam afterward (which was wrong, but with extenuating circumstances), Sam tortured meat suits

Spoiler

  and tricked a (scumbag) human into selling his soul

 

(also wrong with extenuating circumstances).

I wasn't taking the "knowing what the other would have wanted" into consideration in terms of the hypocrisy really myself. Sure Sam knew that Dean wouldn't have wanted to be a demon, but there was much more to it than that as to why Sam went to and justified going to such great lengths to get Dean back. It was the fact that to Sam, that wasn't Dean, not really, (much like Dean didn't see Soulless Sam as really Sam)  especially if it was a demon parading around in Dean's body or whatever else he thought Crowley had done with Dean. Sam even

Spoiler

says as much when he actually confronts Dean later. "This isn't you talking."

That's why I said that this situation is more like Soulless Sam and Dean getting Sam's soul back to me, because this (Dean being missing) was the situation being discussed. I brought up the season 9 finale, because I was acquiescing the point that Sam had already been hypocritical - I'm perfectly willing to admit that, and that that qualifies as hypocritical*** - but that I don't think looking for Dean qualifies as a similar situation. To me, it's more like the Soulless Sam situation.

I don't know how arguing degrees of wrongness got into the discussion, because as far as I know that wasn't a part of my point at all.

My only points were A) Yes, Sam was a hypocrite when it came to Dean's death (the season 9 finale), but B) I don't think that this particular situation was it.

I further qualified that Sam might have still tried to get Dean back if he had just been possessed (and then the demon exorcised), especially in light of the season 9 finale, but we can't know for sure if time might have changed his mind or not.

*** I have bitched about how the finale turned Sam into a hypocrite enough times already over in the "B vs J" thread after all, so it's not like I'm now going to argue Sam wasn't being hypocritical at all.

38 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

While he was torturing meat suits/killing demons/sacrificing scumbags, he still didn't know Dean was a demon - he was trying to get information on Crowley's whereabouts. 

Because he thought Crowley had done something to Dean's body and/or Dean or influenced him somehow. That was the thing that Sam couldn't let go. Sam knew Dean's body didn't just disappear, and he knew Crowley was behind it somehow.

5 minutes ago, The Companion said:

The hypocrisy is in being willing to go to great, unethical lengths to save their sibling, but only one of them was willing to own it.

Actually technically neither of them was willing to own it, in my opinion. And only one of them

Spoiler

had any real consequences for it.

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Because he thought Crowley had done something to Dean's body and/or Dean or influenced him somehow. That was the thing that Sam couldn't let go. Sam knew Dean's body didn't just disappear, and he knew Crowley was behind it somehow.

I always wondered why though. He had no way of knowing that Crowley had been in Dean's room, or that Dean left with him. All he knew was that Dean's body was gone, with the "Let me go" note left behind.

[gonzosgirrl]

20 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Actually technically neither of them was willing to own it, in my opinion. And only one of them

On your spoiler.

Spoiler

I don't understand that. The whole Mark of Cain, saying and becoming a demon was a consequence of what he did to Sam. I'd say he paid a pretty big price.

And Dean did own it, he just wouldn't apologize for it. 

Edited January 13, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[AwesomO4000]

6 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And Dean did own it, he just wouldn't apologize for it. 

6 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

On your spoiler.

Even though my explanation will be short, I'll take it to a more appropriate thread so as to not go off topic. Maybe "All Seasons?"

Edit: Please see note at bottom.

As for this:

6 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I always wondered why though. He had no way of knowing that Crowley had been in Dean's room, or that Dean left with him. All he knew was that Dean's body was gone, with the "Let me go" note left behind.

I don't know how Sam knew, but he somehow did. I don't know if it was because he didn't think anyone else would know about Dean dying, how to get into the bunker or what. Sam had no reason to know that Dean didn't die and/or came back to life on his own (I don't remember Sam finding out that kind of information about the mark, or he likely would've warned Dean, too) - which is why one of Sam's theories when he saw Dean's black eyes in this episode was that Crowley had one of his demons possessing Dean's dead body. Before knowing Dean was a demon, Sam may have thought that one possible explanation was that a deal was made to bring Dean back to life - maybe with ways to control him or use him somehow  - which would also point to Crowley, since deals are his specialty.

Sam also was suspicious of Crowley's influence on Dean from early on - the original taking of the mark when Sam found out from Dean that Crowley had been involved - so maybe when Dean's body disappeared Sam thought that it had Crowley written all over it. Sam had never trusted Crowley, and interestingly, Crowley was one of the few beings that Sam tried to kill from the moment they met... and that was actually fairly consistent. Sam was often trying to kill Crowley, even if Crowley was appearing to try to be helpful. So it could've been as simple as Sam assuming it was Crowley just because, like Meg, he always thinks it's Crowley.

More purely speculative ideas are that maybe Sam did a spell to find clues, consulted a psychic, found sulfur, or somehow else determined that Crowley had been there, especially since Sam had called Crowley, so he knew Crowley had an "in."

Edited to add: Okay, I lied. My response I moved to the "All Episodes" thread somehow ended up really, really long. I swear that when I first conceived it in my head it seemed much shorter.

So sorry about that.

Edited January 14, 2020 by AwesomO4000
An apology for wordiness was now needed.

[The Companion]

11 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Even though my explanation will be short, I'll take it to a more appropriate thread so as to not go off topic. Maybe "All Seasons?"

Edit: Please see note at bottom.

As for this:

I don't know how Sam knew, but he somehow did. I don't know if it was because he didn't think anyone else would know about Dean dying, how to get into the bunker or what. Sam had no reason to know that Dean didn't die and/or came back to life on his own (I don't remember Sam finding out that kind of information about the mark, or he likely would've warned Dean, too) - which is why one of Sam's theories when he saw Dean's black eyes in this episode was that Crowley had one of his demons possessing Dean's dead body. Before knowing Dean was a demon, Sam may have thought that one possible explanation was that a deal was made to bring Dean back to life - maybe with ways to control him or use him somehow  - which would also point to Crowley, since deals are his specialty.

Sam also was suspicious of Crowley's influence on Dean from early on - the original taking of the mark when Sam found out from Dean that Crowley had been involved - so maybe when Dean's body disappeared Sam thought that it had Crowley written all over it. Sam had never trusted Crowley, and interestingly, Crowley was one of the few beings that Sam tried to kill from the moment they met... and that was actually fairly consistent. Sam was often trying to kill Crowley, even if Crowley was appearing to try to be helpful. So it could've been as simple as Sam assuming it was Crowley just because, like Meg, he always thinks it's Crowley.

More purely speculative ideas are that maybe Sam did a spell to find clues, consulted a psychic, found sulfur, or somehow else determined that Crowley had been there, especially since Sam had called Crowley, so he knew Crowley had an "in."

Edited to add: Okay, I lied. My response I moved to the "All Episodes" thread somehow ended up really, really long. I swear that when I first conceived it in my head it seemed much shorter.

So sorry about that.

My assumption would be that he narrowed it down to demons and Crowley would have to either know about it or allow it in his current position and given his relationship with the Winchesters.

Or maybe he heard Crowley rambling about something on the way out. 😂

[AwesomO4000]

8 hours ago, The Companion said:

Or maybe he heard Crowley rambling about something on the way out. 

Loving the sound of their own voice: the hallmark of all proper Supernatural baddies.