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S10.E01: Black


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SueB I really appreciated the analysis. I probably should have clarified--my problem with the scene was Sam's broken shoulder/arm--no way he gets a demon on a tree like that by himself, even if she's 90 lbs soaking wet. Plus he's right handed--wielding a knife looks awkward enough. I just wish they would have come up with a different type of torture, which sounds weird as I type it. This show...

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Torturing demons for information is ridiculous anyway - they're made what they are by years of torture at the hands of people with a lot more expertise than Sam Winchester. I thought the show pretty well established that with Alistair back in Season 4.

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Now if someone can tell me what he said after he knocks Sam out.  I've listened like 5 times and I can't make it out.

I was trying to remember, and what mizkat said about Sam being right-handed reminded me: Cole said something like, "I thought you were right-handed." I think he meant that he knew he could take Sam on because he can't currently use his dominant hand.

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Wouldn't you know it.

I spend all this time writing up my 'something more is going on' spiel and then EW comes out with an article basically asking Carver about this very topic. Waste of a good logic tree... *sigh* . See spoilers for link.

Your analysis is never a waste :) even when I disagree with it.

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SueB I really appreciated the analysis. I probably should have clarified--my problem with the scene was Sam's broken shoulder/arm--no way he gets a demon on a tree like that by himself, even if she's 90 lbs soaking wet. Plus he's right handed--wielding a knife looks awkward enough. I just wish they would have come up with a different type of torture, which sounds weird as I type it. This show...

Isn't the cast a result of Jared getting hurt over his Summer vacation?  I have to cut them some slack for that.

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While this wasn`t the best Season Premiere - it wouldn`t touch Lazarus Rising and In my time of Dying in a million years - I will still give it epic points for not being "something wrong with Sam" and "Sam becomes a supernatural other" and "Dean is all about Sam". Hallelujah. And death to all those.

 

I liked Demon!Dean. He wasn`t particularly evil, that`s true but that makes sense IMO. He would not be interested in any kind of work or responsibility. Which rules out any and all evol plans of world domination. It also makes sense that Demon!Dean wouldn`t spent him time torturing in their home for fun a la Lilith. Again, what pleasure instinct in him would that sate? Regular!Dean has never shown an inclination for that or been "yay, children screaming in pain, my life is complete now".

 

Instead Demon!Dean goes for probably the one thing Dean longed for the most: freedom. Complete and utter freedom from responsibility. Now don`t get me wrong, I don`t think Dean ever wanted his life to be just hedonism but the demonic self takes everything over the top. And even then random impulses like wanting to help Ann Marie come through. He beat up the guy because the fun of it took over but he initially only noticed the guy and singled him out for a beating because of her.

 

Sating the MOC is interesting, too. I just wish we could have seen more and longer fight scenes. And displays of supernatural power. Who does one have to kill here to get DEAN to have some supernatural powers for a few episodes?

 

What I loved best was Crowley truth-dialing Sam. "Hey, we were worried you hit another dog".  HA!. And "you are more jealous over the loss of your toy" because frankly, I think there is a lot of truth to that.

 

Cole, I`m not sure about yet. It was hilarious how deflated he was when Demon!Dean`s nonchalance blew a big fat hole in his plan. "But...but..my leverage..." You could almost see it in a bubble over his head. And he is not even aware of the irony that whatever happened to jumpstart his vengeance quest was at best maybe just him misjudging the situation and at worst a mistake on a hunt, done with no ill will whereas Dean now would actually snap him like a twig.

 

Cas` parts were sadly the weakest. Hannah - the angelic equivalent to a sedative and once more "random angel shenanigans on Earth". Why in all the heavens can his storyline not be integrated with the brothers? He was introduced as a character who played a big role on Dean`s mytharc (well, when it looked like he had one back then). He became popular and was a great asset then.

 

Now it`s Supernatural with a dash of "meanwhile, on Cas..."

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I'm wondering if that demon accident that injured Sam's shoulder actually has to do with Dean. It seems like it was a pretty big deal, more so than a standard demon hunting injury.  The demon incident seems ways more personal with Cas saying stuff like "that demon" instead of just the demon.  And then Sam saying "What happened happened" and going on to Cas talking about missing Dean and then talking about the note and wondering if Dean is still even remotely Dean.  Later when Crowley and Dean are talking, Crowley says the mark needs to be sated and Dean says that otherwise he would turn into a demon, which is something he got six weeks ago.  

 

It's seeming like this was an incident between Sam and Dean right around the time Dean first woke up.  If I had to guess, I'd say Dean went demon, Sam went into defense mode, fights ensued, Cas was ineffective, Sam's shoulder was broken, Crowley teleported Dean away.  Maybe there was something else super crazy involved that was specific to Sam.  Blood drinking? Cas did start to say something with "you were out of" which could be out of control or out of your mind with grief or any other number of things.  But an incident between Dean and Sam answers a lot of questions.  Would answer why Sam never tried to call, since he thought Dean was possessed or at least that Crowley had done something to him.  It would also answer why the demons have been ordered to stay away since Crowley would be interested in keeping Dean level headed, especially if Dean's first lost of control had to do with a fight with his brother.  

 

I think it might also address why Dean seems a little too much like, well, Dean.  He's basically living his happy life.  Drinking bear, hanging out in bars, getting laid, driving his car, fighting monsters. Even when he was 'evil', it didn't seem particularly demonish.  He was an asshole to Ann Marie but considering his circumstances, that almost seemed like the right thing to do to keep her away from him and to keep him away from her.

 

 The MoC is all tied up in brother killing but even Cain was able to set it aside when he found his own little happy place.  The Mark may drive the bearer to want to commit fratricide in order to fully activate itself or something.  I wonder if Dean realizes this because the major difference between this Dean and previous Dean is that this Dean didn't rush off to save Sammy.  Yet, this Dean still promised to hunt down the dude who threatened to harm Sam.  This Dean also wanted to know his brother was still alive before issuing that threat.  He's still going to be heading towards Sam because he said he'd be hunting down Cole, but there is a bit there were he made it so that Sam might no longer be there since he had Cole believe that torturing the brother isn't a way to get Dean to come running anymore.  

Edited by bluebonnet
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I thought the show pretty well established that with Alistair back in Season 4.

I think only a few (like Dean and Mef) got Alastair's attention. Plus he's been dead for

Few centuries hell-time. I don't know who is the Grand Inquisitor now .... But again, I don't think everyone gets the personal touch.

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[excerpts] - I thought I was going to hate Demon Dean because he was actually going to be a demon.  Pathetic.

 

And, after everything Sam has been through, I'm supposed to believe that he's afraid of this moron?

 

I will have to watch that scene again, but I got the impression that Sam was more scared for Dean: maybe either of Cole finding out what Dean was and/or of what or who Cole was and what he  might do to Dean. I thought Sam was going to try to warn Dean Leia-style ("Dean! It's a trap!"). Sam knows Dean is a demon now and with the note, knows Dean doesn't want anything to do with Sam, so it would be kind of odd for Sam to yell help and expect Dean to come running in his current demon state. It made more sense to me that Sam was more scared for Dean - and Cole finding out what Dean is and that info somehow getting out to other hunters (or monsters) who might then go after Dean - because I suspect that Sam thinks Cole is not something or someone usual. He knows too much. If the show really is trying to say Sam was scared for himself... yeah that would be lame and would make little sense for the reasons you state. We'll see after this point, since now that Cole knows Dean isn't coming, Sam won't have to be concerned for Dean... so we'll see what Sam does next. I'm hoping Sam now just taunts Cole with "go ahead and kill me. Dean's not coming, so you can't get him." or something like that.

 

As for Dean as a demon... yeah I knew that they weren't going to make him that bad. I had already predicted it and accepted it as soon as Dean's eyes went black. We already saw Dean as the vampire who cared about humanity, and this group of writers would be even less inclined to have Dean do bad than those, so I expected a Demon Dean who wasn't that bad. I also predicted the anger part - which is what seems to be the thing that gets Dean going. While soulless Sam didn't really care about much emotionally, I think demon Dean might say and/or want to think that he doesn't give a crap, but he does in some ways. Revenge is the big difference. I think demon Dean is going to be a lot about revenge, whereas for soulless Sam, revenge wasn't even something he considered. Wanting revenge for something shows a connection to something and caring at least enough to plot and take that revenge*. And I think that's where the difference is going to lie.

 

* For example we have Dean here saying that if Cole kills Sam, Dean will make sure to hunt him down and get his revenge. If something happened to Dean while soulless Sam was around, evidenced by his reaction in "Clap Your Hands...", soulless Sam would've shrugged and gone on his merry way. Soulless Sam just didn't have the capacity to really care or have any sort of lasting emotional reaction at all. Soulless Sam truly didn't give a crap. That's not going to be how demon Dean is though.

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And Dean is going to kill Cole just for pissing him off. Whether or not Sam lives, Dean implies, is not the issue. Of course I don't believe that. Demons are not soulless, he actually has feelings about Sam. Exactly what those feelings are seems very complicated (more than Game of Thrones and shower sex).

Edited by SueB
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How Dean and any other person could easily flee a Winchester Bro: get out of the continental states.  Sorry, still kinda irritated they only use continental US maps to find anything going on :P  I also missed Kansas, had to listen to that stuff by myself :(  I can't wait until Castiel finds out that Dean is a demon.

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Cole, I`m not sure about yet. It was hilarious how deflated he was when Demon!Dean`s nonchalance blew a big fat hole in his plan. "But...but..my leverage..." You could almost see it in a bubble over his head. And he is not even aware of the irony that whatever happened to jumpstart his vengeance quest was at best maybe just him misjudging the situation and at worst a mistake on a hunt, done with no ill will whereas Dean now would actually snap him like a twig.

 

I'm intrigued by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter. I think "nonchalance" is exactly the right word. I didn't get a "go ahead, kill him, see if I care" vibe at all. It was more calling the guy on his BS. DemonDean is smart enough to see through him, and currently disinclined to play games or go along with the conventions of hostage negotiations. It wouldn't shock me if Dean showed up to rescue Sam, not so much because he's worried about WoobieSam, but because he's pissed off and also wouldn't mind getting into it with someone. (He and this dude have some kind of history, maybe he recognized the voice.)

 

If the difference between DemonDean and OriginalDean is a loss of inhibitions and behavioral controls, I'd imagine that he's going to be struggling with that for a good long time, even if he's "cured" early on. What is a demon, after all? A being with powers, but with agency. Meg, and Crowley, have on occasion done things that were helpful to Our Heroes, and they've also done terrible things that I think sometimes Show has forgotten (Ellen and Jo, for example). If being a demon isn't black/white, good/evil -- if the torture in hell is what turns a human into a demon and Dean missed out on that (this time) -- that's more interesting than just black eyes and being evil. He is still Dean, and he'll keep on being Dean once he's cured, but with memories of what it's like to be on the other side, some of which I bet he'll remember with some (conflicted) fondness.

 

Anyway, I personally enjoyed it very much. I'm pathetically easy to please when it comes to Supernatural, though.

 

(The clips we've seen of the Bunker confrontation might be presented as a flashback, no? Is that what everyone is assuming?)

 

PS -- that scene of wee little Cole leading Moose-with-bag-on-head was hilarious.

Edited by AuntTora
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(The clips we've seen of the Bunker confrontation might be presented as a flashback, no? Is that what everyone is assuming?)

I think it might be a mix.  I don't keep up with Supernatural while it's on hiatus so don't know when Jared broke his shoulder or how long he was filming while in a cast.  Most of the scenes in the bunker, Sam is wearing the sling.  But there is one where he opens the door (and I think it's the bunker) with no sling.  There's also a Dean and Sam confrontation with no sling but it doesn't appear to be in the bunker.  Might be right outside.  I'm mostly just going by the presence of the sling in determining what would be flashback and what would be something that happens in the future.  

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I definitely don't think any of the Sam/Dean/Bunker scenes are flashbacks.  I do think what we saw in the promo for next week will be at the end of the episode and will lead into the third, since that's where the comic con clip came from.  I can't really go much further without getting too spoilery here.

 

Sam only wears one sling, which is Jared's. Every clip I've seen from the first three episodes (which I'm pretty sure is all we've seen) he is wearing the sling.  I haven't seen any clips where he hasn't had it, including the ones mentioned above.  

 

Jared said at a con that he wears the sling through the first 4 episodes.  He wasn't able to film without it until episode 5.

Edited by kimrey
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It looks like he isn't wearing the sling around the 1:10 mark in the Deanmon Rises trailer.  There's another moment when he opens a door in the bunker near the start of the trailer but it's shadowy and so hard to tell without pausing.  It's likely that someone has screencapped tiny moment so we can know for sure, but I woudln't know how to find that sort of stuff.  

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Interesting theories about how Sam hurt his shoulder with Cas... but I got the impression from this episode that Sam didn't know Dean was possessed/ a demon until he saw it on the surveillance video... so that sort of makes a demon Dean/Sam confrontation weeks ago not work so much... But maybe I missed something ?

 

I think Dean disappeared and Sam was trying to figure out where he was/ what happened to him. The "my brother is dead" thing, I thought was because he was possessed by a demon (though we know people can be saved from possession) Or did Sam see Dean die and then his body disappeared or something?  I guess I should have rewatched the finale before this :P

 

I dunno... a lot of that was a big confusing to me, but I'm hoping more pieces will fall into place with the next few episodes.

 

I do agree that dean wasn't as evil as I was expecting. Not that I expected him to just be torturing random people or anything... but getting drunk, having sex... those are sort of old school normal dean things... minus the weight of the world, I suppose.

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Interesting theories about how Sam hurt his shoulder with Cas... but I got the impression from this episode that Sam didn't know Dean was possessed/ a demon until he saw it on the surveillance video... so that sort of makes a demon Dean/Sam confrontation weeks ago not work so much... But maybe I missed something ?

 

I think Dean disappeared and Sam was trying to figure out where he was/ what happened to him. The "my brother is dead" thing, I thought was because he was possessed by a demon (though we know people can be saved from possession) Or did Sam see Dean die and then his body disappeared or something?  I guess I should have rewatched the finale before this :P

 

I dunno... a lot of that was a big confusing to me, but I'm hoping more pieces will fall into place with the next few episodes.

 

Sam didn't know Dean was a demon until he saw the surveillance footage.  When he saw that he just assumed it was a demon possessing Dean's dead body.  He found out from Crowley on the phone that that wasn't the case, Dean was alive because of the mark, but now his soul is twisted.  

 

So, Sam and Dean have not confronted each other since what happened in the finale.  So the stuff from the promo and the comic con clips can't be flashbacks.

 

As for how Sam hurt his shoulder, I do hope they can do flashbacks and show what happened now that Jared isn't in the sling anymore.  But the time has probably passed.

Edited by kimrey
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But the time has probably passed.

Nah....we had flashbacks in S8 up to like, IDK...EP10?  Pretty late at least.

 

Comic Con trailer was from EP3.

Edited by SueB
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Lol, it seems like one isn't really able to get involved in discussion unless they spent their summer reading all the spoilers possible.  Thanks for that!

 

Dean isn't going around wearing his demon eyes.  He didn't have black eyes while he was killing the guy in the convenience store or the one in the alley.  The only reason Sam was able to see the the flash of black was because he was able to freeze each screen. It would have been entirely plausible if they had a confrontation without Sam seeing his eyes.  But whatever, guess I should have spent more time in the spoiler thread even though I didn't really want spoilers for this show.  

Edited by bluebonnet
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I'm sorry!  I honestly don't think I'm giving that much away?  I'm honestly going off of what I saw in the episode.  To me it definitely seems like Sam and Dean have not seen each other since what happened in the finale and I get that vibe from everything Sam said in this episode.  He has been looking for Dean since he disappeared from the bunker and made no indication that he had seen him since.  He and Cas discussed that specifically in the beginning with the whole "why would he just disappear" and "maybe he didn't go willingly" (totally just paraphrasing, but that was the gist).

 

Again, sorry if you felt I was giving away spoilers.  I really didn't think I was.  I'm really going off this specific episode and the trailers we've seen so far.

Edited by kimrey
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I'm very likely being overly sensitive and I apologize for it.  I get what you're saying and I think it's valid.  I'm projecting my feelings about this particular forum onto someone who really doesn't deserve it.  I tried to get involved in the Supernatural forum at TWOP and found it incredibly hostile and uninviting.  I was excited to jump on board here pretty early on, but towards the end of last season, it started to resemble the TWOP forum.  Supernatural is a show I really love but not one I'm able to invest time in during the hiatus so I missed out on lots of relationship building with these particular fans.  It feels uncomfortable here in a way it doesn't in other show forums, but it was very wrong of me to take it out on you when you didn't do anything wrong and aren't even part of the problem I'm describing.  I'm sorry for for being such an asshole.  

 

I'll probably check in again if there is an especially great episode but I think it's best for all if I just move along because it's not really fair for me to vomit asshole over everyone.

 

Btw, to keep this relevant, I can't stand what they are doing with Cas.  Who is this person?  

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I'm sorry too.  Since you mentioned the trailers, I presumed discussing their source was okay.

 

I should have spent more time in the spoiler thread even though I didn't really want spoilers for this show.

 

I am spoiler-free for many series, this is not one of them. However, except for acknowledging the episode associated with the trailers (which typically DO show more than the first episode at both the start of the season and mid-season return -- and clearly several scenes were NOT from Black as we didn't see them in the episode) I believe everything is episode-based.

 

 

Based on how S9 went and Carver's proclivities, it's not surprising that there are a LOT of subtle things going on in this ep. My assessment (from the episode alone) of 'What Sam Thought at Specific Points':

- Confrontation w/ the demon gal - he doesn't know what's happening but he suspects Crowley is involved. That's why he slit the girl's throat and wanted her to call Crowley -- so they could talk.  To me this makes sense because we know Sam summoned Crowley.  Also, in 9.23, Crowley left sulfur behind when he and Dean took off from the bunker.  It's not unreasonable to presume he left sulfur behind when he showed up at Dean's bedside at the end of S9.  So... Sam looking for Crowley seems like the first move he'd make. I presume both Crowley and Dean are ducking Sam's calls.

- Conversation w/ Cas - I think Sam thinks Dean is alive. Mostly because of the note 'Sammy let me go'. Clearly in Dean's handwriting. He even stated he didn't understand why he would take off.  As to HOW Dean was alive... Sam said to Cas that he didn't know if Dean was 'still Dean'.  Dean told him the blade was changing him.  Now he is apparently alive and Crowley is likely involved. 

- Sees the video tape and the black eyes - At this point Sam thinks that Dean stayed dead and Crowley shoved a demon in him.  So, seeing the black eyes really upset him because while he knew his brother was in trouble, he lost hope again of him being alive. 

- Conversation with Crowley - Crowley sets Sam straight that it's not a demon in a Dean meatsuit but Dean AS a demon. 

 

Poor Sammy.  He was really put thru the wringer last night. 

 

 

Btw, to keep this relevant, I can't stand what they are doing with Cas.  Who is this person?

II am seriously bummed about this too.  I have my pet theories on the WHY but in-story I think there's some serious awkwardness with Sam going on.

Edited by SueB
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I'm very likely being overly sensitive and I apologize for it.  I get what you're saying and I think it's valid.  I'm projecting my feelings about this particular forum onto someone who really doesn't deserve it.  I tried to get involved in the Supernatural forum at TWOP and found it incredibly hostile and uninviting.  I was excited to jump on board here pretty early on, but towards the end of last season, it started to resemble the TWOP forum.  Supernatural is a show I really love but not one I'm able to invest time in during the hiatus so I missed out on lots of relationship building with these particular fans.  It feels uncomfortable here in a way it doesn't in other show forums, but it was very wrong of me to take it out on you when you didn't do anything wrong and aren't even part of the problem I'm describing.  I'm sorry for for being such an asshole.  

 

I'll probably check in again if there is an especially great episode but I think it's best for all if I just move along because it's not really fair for me to vomit asshole over everyone.

 

Btw, to keep this relevant, I can't stand what they are doing with Cas.  Who is this person?  

 

Aw, please stay!  Also, I sent you a message because I felt so bad, but that was before I saw this post so feel free to ignore it haha.    I hope you can feel more comfortable here!  We appreciate all opinions and speculation!  I'm definitely going to try to check myself more often and make sure I'm not giving anything away outside of what's out there officially.  

 

As for Cas, I don't even know because I honestly zoned out at basically all of his scenes besides the phone call with Sam.  Even when I've gone back to rewatch the episode I fast forward through all the Cas/Hannah stuff because it was a snooze fest.  I hope they do something more interesting with him soon!

Edited by kimrey
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That's it!  Just went back and watched.  Thanks!

 

Now if someone can tell me what he said after he knocks Sam out.  I've listened like 5 times and I can't make it out.

He says something like "guessing you're a rightie"   - since Sam has his right arm in sling and he goes down so fast ;)

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I'm very likely being overly sensitive and I apologize for it.  I get what you're saying and I think it's valid.  I'm projecting my feelings about this particular forum onto someone who really doesn't deserve it.  I tried to get involved in the Supernatural forum at TWOP and found it incredibly hostile and uninviting.  I was excited to jump on board here pretty early on, but towards the end of last season, it started to resemble the TWOP forum.  Supernatural is a show I really love but not one I'm able to invest time in during the hiatus so I missed out on lots of relationship building with these particular fans.  It feels uncomfortable here in a way it doesn't in other show forums, but it was very wrong of me to take it out on you when you didn't do anything wrong and aren't even part of the problem I'm describing.  I'm sorry for for being such an asshole.  

 

I'll probably check in again if there is an especially great episode but I think it's best for all if I just move along because it's not really fair for me to vomit asshole over everyone.

 

All are welcome in any PTV forum regardless of what level of time or investment they can or want to put into a show, no-one should feel that they must justify wanting to participate in any given forum.

Time spent does not = ownership; this is an 'open to all' party and a standing invite to participate as often or little as you wish is the norm here. :)

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Speaking for myself, I am happy to see Sam apparently willing to do anything in order to try to save Dean. Sam with a hint of darkness has always been my favorite flavor and I would love to know just what he's been up to that has demons in real fear of him. After all, this is the guy who stuck Lucifer back in his cage so if there is any human that they should be afraid of, it is Sam. To see him go scorched earth on Crowley and his minions would certainly be entertaining.

 

Crowley... egging Sam on is probably not the smartest thing you've ever done. Boy King, remember? You're only running Hell because he didn't want the job. Pissing him off is probably not a good idea.

 

Cole hasn't made that much of an impression yet. Will need to see how it plays out.

 

And on second viewing, Castiel's storyline is as much a bore as it was the first time around. I see a lot of fast forwarding until this gets resolved.

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At this point Sam thinks that Dean stayed dead and Crowley shoved a demon in him.

 

But why would he think that, since Dean has an anti-possession tattoo? I'm not questioning you, just the logic of the story at that point. My take is that up until the eye reveal in the video Sam doesn't know what's going on with Dean at all. He just knows that Crowley has something to do with it. 

 

I also don't think Sam was afraid of Dean. I don't think he's afraid of Cole, either. And I don't think he's surprised that Dean told Cole to let Sam die, now that he knows Dean's a demon. 

 

I do find it interesting that the shoe is on the other foot for Sam. He has to find Dean and "save" him, whatever that entails, and he's attempting to do exactly that. It flies in the face of what he said last season about how he would have let Dean die. I didn't buy Sam saying it then, and now that he actually is in the position to let Dean die, he can't do it. 

 

As for Cas--sigh. They don't seem to know what to do with him. He needs a purpose. A goal or a quest. Like trying to find more grace, or insisting on helping Sam find Dean. Hannah shouldn't have to knock on his door and give him something to do. 

 

So demons have angel blades now? Or did I mis-see what the demons who were going after Dean were wielding? 

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Speaking for myself, I am happy to see Sam apparently willing to do anything in order to try to save Dean. Sam with a hint of darkness has always been my favorite flavor and I would love to know just what he's been up to that has demons in real fear of him. After all, this is the guy who stuck Lucifer back in his cage so if there is any human that they should be afraid of, it is Sam. To see him go scorched earth on Crowley and his minions would certainly be entertaining.

Hana Chan  You are SO right.  I rewatched the teaser and 'The Winchester are what the demons whisper about in the dark.' was my first thought. These two are the stuff of nightmares for demons ... if they have nightmares.  I need the "Demon Today" newsletter.  Someone needs to make that blog.  But Cain knew who Dean was and she clearly knew Sam's rep.  What also ran through my head... I wonder if there is a strange sort of respect for Sam (and maybe Dean).  When she was taunting him about being dark, I wondered if it was almost with disappointment. Like they sort of admire the Winchester's commitment to fighting the good fight and now he's just another killer (in her mind).  Just me then?  Okay.

 

Another interesting tidbit:

- She said they were "under orders" to not call Crowley and no one in demon-land knew what he was doing.  He's probably pulling some long con on the demons to get his Dean-partner squared away before he is actively available.

 

 

Crowley... egging Sam on is probably not the smartest thing you've ever done.

 

True... but it WAS delicious.

 

 

 

But why would he think that, since Dean has an anti-possession tattoo? I'm not questioning you, just the logic of the story at that point. My take is that up until the eye reveal in the video Sam doesn't know what's going on with Dean at all. He just knows that Crowley has something to do with it.

mizkat. Reasonable question.  Sam told Crowley, "My brother is dead, Crowley. I know you have some demon parading around in his meatsuit. And trust me, you are going to pay for that."  So Sam DID believe it.  Possible solution to the anti-possession tattoo Sam could theorize before learning the truth: Crowley carved it off of Dean's chest and THEN a minion smoked in.  Kind of like what Abaddon threatened.  If Dean was dead, it's not like he could protest. 

 

I think the purpose was to allow Crowley to be the one to let Sam know that it's still Dean's soul, just reborn twisted. I think Sam is still freakin' confused even with that data point.  He always says "Crowley lies" so he'll be hard pressed to believe it until he sees Dean himself IMO.

 

 

So demons have angel blades now? Or did I mis-see what the demons who were going after Dean were wielding?

 

Crowley definitely has at least one.  He killed with it in S6 several times.  Since there has been so much angel-on-angel violence, they are probably more easy to snatch. Since he is sending these demons in to kill Dean, he's probably handing the minion an angel blade to give them the false sense of security that they can actually BEAT Dean.  I could see him spinning a story about how whoever takes out Dean (who IS a threat to Crowley) gets to be at his right hand side.

Edited by SueB
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Sam with a hint of darkness has always been my favorite flavor and I would love to know just what he's been up to that has demons in real fear of him.

 

And yet a human, Cole, in the very same episode, took out Sam so easily he didn't even break a fingernail.  Sam didn't even seem suspicious that his car suddenly died on a lonely, dark stretch of road with a convenient savior driving in right behind him.  The writers should have come up with something more plausible.  If Sam is someone demons should fear then he shouldn't be easy pickings for a human!

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There have been lots of times when the Winchesters were able to take on all sorts of supernatural critters, yet got pinched by ordinary people who by any rights shouldn't have gotten the jump on them. My guess is that Sam is so completely focused on finding Dean and Crowley (and probably not taking care of himself too good in the process) that he forgot that he has a lot more to worry about than just his newly demonic brother.

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Late to the party as usual. I'm totally confused, I thought S10 was supposed to be the year of the Deanmon, when do you think he will show up?

 

I'm also confused as to what exactly got the angels panties all in a twist. Daniel and (sorry I forget her name) killed another angel, so they need to be punished? Haven't they been killing each other since forever? I must have missed something here when all the yammering lulled me into a coma.

 

Do not give a crap about this Cole fellow or that truckstop waitress. Just plain don't care. This show needs to learn how to shut the hell up. So much yammering on and on and on and on and about stupid shit that I either knew or didn't need to know. Blah, blah, blah.

 

 

ETA: I forgot to end on a positive as is my want lately. Well, they did give us some real Sam POV, haven't seen that in a while, so that was sort of refreshing. Boring, but refreshing none-the-less.

Edited by DittyDotDot
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I'm also confused as to what exactly got the angels panties all in a twist. Daniel and (sorry I forget her name) killed another angel, so they need to be punished? Haven't they been killing each other since forever? I must have missed something here when all the yammering lulled me into a coma.

 

 

I think they said that once the doors to Heaven reopened, everyone was supposed to go back.  But who made that call? Who's in charge?  They never said.  Lazy writing.  Cheap drama.  Cheap kills.

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I think they said that once the doors to Heaven reopened, everyone was supposed to go back. But who made that call? Who's in charge? They never said. Lazy writing. Cheap drama. Cheap kills.

I think maybe the key to it was when Hannah showed up at Castiel's door and said "I need your help" and then, after a second, "Heaven needs your help." She also told him that nobody was in charge in heaven, so there's no-one to be giving those orders. I think the one running the fatwas is Hannah. I think she's decided on her own that someone needs to be smiting on behalf of the kind of heaven she believes in and she got together a bunch of fellow enthusiasts to start doing it.

Edited by Julia
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I think maybe the key to it was when Hannah showed up at Crowley's door and said "I need your help" and then, after a second, "Heaven needs your help."

I think you mean Castiel's door? Otherwise, she would have been even more stupid. And I can imagine Crowley's face if that had happened. A cat with catnip couldn't have been happier.

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I think you mean Castiel's door? Otherwise, she would have been even more stupid. And I can imagine Crowley's face if that had happened. A cat with catnip couldn't have been happier.

Yes, sorry. Fixing.

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I think maybe the key to it was when Hannah showed up at Castiel's door and said "I need your help" and then, after a second, "Heaven needs your help." She also told him that nobody was in charge in heaven, so there's no-one to be giving those orders. I think the one running the fatwas is Hannah. I think she's decided on her own that someone needs to be smiting on behalf of the kind of heaven she believes in and she got together a bunch of fellow enthusiasts to start doing it.

 

Apparently angels aren't happy unless they're smiting someone/something. They don't know what to do with themselves otherwise. 

 

Cas, Cas, Cas. What to do with you? He needs his grace back, pronto. He needs to zap himself to wherever Dean is and invade his personal space on the regular. Even if he couldn't head-tap the demon out of Dean, he could be the good angel on Dean's shoulder to counteract Crowley. If Dean's not willing to look at himself in the metaphorical mirror, then let Cas be his reflection, reminding him of who he really is. He's not that far down the demon path to turn around. Plus I miss Dean/Cas interaction.

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If they want Demon Dean to look really evil, they're going to need to ramp it up, imo. They're fairly bad at doing things like that, but if they want him to be really evil they need to figure it out. If that's as bad as they intended him to be then, idk, I was misled, he hooked up and was a dick. Oh, and he enjoyed the violence, eh. They've tried to sell worse things as good. Maybe if the mark is sated it's better, now, which works for a hunter. I don't know.

I believe the "evil" in Dean is kept under control by "feeding" the Mark of Cain with demon kills.  This is why Crowley keeps sending demons to kill and/or attack Dean.  Like Crowley said, Dean gets darker and more violent if the Mark of Cain isn't fed.  So my take on that was it's also why Demon Dean isn't terribly evil.  He's a douche, but he's not out to murder the town.  He just doesn't care about anything or anyone except himself - which is very un-Dean-like.  Demon Dean wants sex, booze, porn, and to hang out in bars all day long.  He's probably eating tons of cheeseburgers too.  THAT's what Demon Dean wants to do.  Now if he doesn't kill or become violent, that Mark of Cain is going to fester like a bad infection, and then we'll probably see sides of Dean we hadn't anticipated.  Frankly, Crowley is keeping the "beast" fed and sated.  If that stops, then watch out.

 

 Loved the store clerk guy, he was hilarious with his descriptions of "Porn Guy".

The store clerk guy was awesome.  His snark back at Sam was hysterical, I agree.

 

I really love Cas but I will agree with the other posters here, the angel storyline is so boring!  Get Cas his damn grace back and send him after Dean.  I wish they would just stop with the separate angel storylines and give us Cas back.

I think we are all in agreement that the angel storyline needs to end - ASAP.  I don't care about fallen angels, missing angels, angels that are going rogue.  I.Don't.Care.  Just get Cas back looking for Dean - and in good health.

 

It was really weird to see the non-reaction from Dean about Sam being in danger.

 

 

I think the best part was when Dean didn't care that Cole was going to kill Sam. No reaction. That was good. That finally brought home that there was something significantly different.

 

That was, by far, the best scene of the episode.  I think Dean was still there inside Demon Dean because if he didn't really care about Sam, why threaten to hurt the guy?  Why threaten to track him down and kill him?  I think Demon Dean didn't want to make the effort to save Sam, and the Dean inside him was pissed off for the harm to his brother - hence the threat to Cole. 

 

Jensen played that scene beautifully - just enough menace and contempt.

 

I think Crowley is in love with Squirrel, pardon, NotMoose.

 

I think so too.  Crowley has a mad crush on Dean, and yes, Moose is jealous of Dean having a new BFF.

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Is this an unpopular opinion - I actually really love what was done with demon!Dean? It's so much more interesting to me that he is not a mindlessly evil moustache twirling villain. This was not at all what I expected. It's a very different characterization from soulless Sam, who was more... methodical? I can't quite put my finger on it. Demon!Dean is completely missing the air of vulnerability that regular Dean has. It's a totally different vibe, all sleazy and careless and I don't know... there are actually scenes where his expressions and body language make him physically look less attractive to me. LOL. Yet there are also moments (like the scene with Anne Marie after he is cruel to her) where I suddenly can't really tell if he does still care after all? There's still an odd undercurrent of self loathing in what he says. It's hard to say how much of this character is still Dean, and it raises interesting questions about what it means to have a twisted soul vs no soul at all. I'm loving the ambiguity. There's actually a lot of subtlety with this character, a lot under the surface that hasn't been revealed yet, which really has my interest. I find later seasons of this show very lacking in subtlety generally (that fish metaphor was a giant sledgehammer *eyeroll*), so I am very pleasantly surprised how much I enjoyed it. 

Really looking forward to Dean stalking Sam through the bunker with a hammer in the next episode too. :D

  

 

Other than Dean, it was satisfying to see Sam actually try to look for Dean this time, what I wished he had done in Season 8. Crowley had some great lines in this episode - the dig about hitting a dog was gold, so hilarious and also SO loaded and manipulative and intentional. Agree with the rest of you that the angel storyline is extremely boring though. Haven't we gone through this same problem enough times? None of the current angels are interesting as characters, there's no mystery or fierceness or otherness at ALL about them these days. I just want to fast forward through that storyline, it doesn't fit with the rest of the episode at all, and really messes with the pacing IMO. I liked the episode overall though, and think it's a great setup for the rest of the season. 

Edited by Mcolleague
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I agree. Jensen is really amazing. IT'S DEAN but not. I also thought that discussion with Anne marie was more about Dean than her. I think he is still the same self loathing guy as before. I do want Dean to wield some demonic power though besides uber killer.

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Is this an unpopular opinion - I actually really love what was done with demon!Dean? It's so much more interesting to me that he is not a mindlessly evil moustache twirling villain.

 

While I would have liked a more variety of scenes, especially more fight/stunt scenes with demons and some freaking powers, in general I agree with that. On the TV show Haven the lead character is currently having an "evil incarnation" storyline and while it`s not quite the same context as Demon!Dean, it`s played so over-the-top arch villain, two episodes in, I was completely bored and annoyed with it. And that is with a clear-cut evil agenda and all that. It just doesn`t make it entertaining to watch.    

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I thought it was dumb and weird for Castiel not to say something to Hannah like, "Hey, you're kind of really acting like the very angels you hate!" It just seems like potentially another iteration of the same angel storyline they've trotted out before.

 

As for why Castiel is staying in a grubby motel instead of the bunker, I like to think he got tired of Sam asking him to blow-dry and style his hair for him after the shoulder incident.

Edited by Tippi Blevins
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As for why Castiel is staying in a grubby motel instead of the bunker, I like to think he got tired of Sam asking him to blow-dry and style his hair for him after the shoulder incident.

Sam: (whiny voice) C'mon Cas I need it!

Cas: Dean told me no means no Sam!

Sam: Uh, what, why, oh, (wanders off to get brain bleach)

 

ETA some topic relative comments....so those angels are just so interesting huh? I can't wait to see more about them.<eyeroll>

Edited by trxr4kids
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Can someone remind me? Did Cain die too at some point or did he just get the Power of the Mark? How did he stay so calm with his bees in his retirement? Did he not have to "feed" the Mark?

Why was and is Dean different?

 

Castiel should have stabbed Hannah instead of that angel who liked fishing. He was nice. I liked him.

 

It made no sense for Castiel's character.

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Can someone remind me? Did Cain die too at some point or did he just get the Power of the Mark? How did he stay so calm with his bees in his retirement? Did he not have to "feed" the Mark?

 

 

Crowley's speech at the end of 9.23 explained: Cain ALSO was overcome by the Mark and committed suicide using the Blade to prevent himself from killing.  The Mark held on and THIS is how he became a demon.  Sequence:

- Cain makes Deal with Lucifer and takes on the Mark.

- Cain kills Abel (Speculation: This moment was akin to Dean killing Abaddon.  Dean killing Abaddon was what triggered the out-of-control-yak-your-guts-out-response. In both cases, the purpose of taking the Mark was fulfilled.  Again...speculation.)

- Cain gets sick and starts to need to kill.

- Cain takes his own life, is RESURRECTED as a demon by the Mark.

- Cain goes nuttty, becomes a Knight of Hell, creates an Order of Knights, runs a terror party for a few millenia

- Cain meets Collette. SOMEHOW Collette reaches Cain through the power of love because she sees his inner goodness. She marries Cain if he agrees to stop killing. Apparently they have some peaceful time together until the Knights find him and take Collette.

- Cain kills all the Knights but Abaddon, who possesses Collette -- and then Cain inadvertently kills Collette while trying to kill Abaddon.  Cain obeys Collette's dying wish and throws the Blade into the deepest ocean. 

- Cain lives another century+ raising bees (he IS the original farmer BTW, but doomed to not grow anything so the bees are REALLY poetic as they are nature's little farmers). He seems to have found some peace away from the Blade and living with Collette's vision of who he was.

 

Why was and is Dean different?

 

So far he really isn't except he didn't commit suicide, Metatron killed him.  And more importantly, Crowley is midwifing him.  I think it's much more than waking his ass up (because I think that would have happened anyway). I think Crowley is keeping him sane by "feeding" the Mark but stopping Dean from just gorging out on Bloodlust.  So Cain had no "Dummy's Guide to Demon".  Crowley is doing that for Dean.  Further, Cain is not Dean in terms of motivation.  Maybe Cain was pissed at the world and so reckless killing worked for him.  Dean, OTOH, has been a killer since the age of 16. Mostly a killer of Monsters and Demons but he's been slicing throats for a VERY long time.  All Dean wants is zero responsibility.  So to make him happy -- he wants to party.  To keep him sane, he apparently HAS to kill to keep the Mark sated. Cain, OTOH, was doing exactly what the Mark wanted so there was no need to keep it "sated". It was a very happy demonic Mark with Cain at the start.

I think Cain was able to live without sating the Blade because; 1) He had been a demon a very long time before he met Collette so he likely was more in control of his abilities than Dean is now; 2)power of love is a greater counter-drug than booze/babes/karaoke (I KNOW, blasphemy!) and 3) after losing Collette, he threw the Blade away and this seemed to lessen it's hold on him.  Dean has the thing tucked into his belt in the back. 

 

Castiel should have stabbed Hannah instead of that angel who liked fishing. He was nice. I liked him.

It made no sense for Castiel's character.

I liked Hannah a BIT last season.  Now?  Totally agree with you.

Edited by SueB
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Yeah, the Hannah of last year was interesting and showed signs of complexity. This year she seems to have defaulted to the angelic standard of "ZOMG! Former comrade-in-arms disagrees with me about what we should do with directionless freedom—MUST KILL THE HERETIC!!!1!"

 I can't wait until Castiel finds out that Dean is a demon.

Is there any guarantee that he'd be overly disturbed by the change? Cas spent the better part of a season awfully chummy with Meg.

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Cas` parts were sadly the weakest. Hannah - the angelic equivalent to a sedative and once more "random angel shenanigans on Earth". Why in all the heavens can his storyline not be integrated with the brothers?

 

I thought that this has been fairly transparent since last season.  Supernatural's mytharc is now brothers vs. bromance and Supernatural only does triangles not squares. Dean is the Bella Swan in this triangle.

 

The show figured out that they suck at juggling all three of those last season.  Cas got sent away because it was best for Sam, but not really.  That was the excuse to cover that they wanted to set up Crowley and Dean: partners in demonic crime.  Cas is going to be sidelined until they have a little Sam and Dean conflict/reconciliation and Crowley rift.

 

The whole show would work better if Sam and Cas related to each other as more than mutual acquaintances through Dean; but for whatever reason they decided not to let that happen.  The original reason seemed to be Sam's demon blood but that isn't really enough to explain it anymore.

 

Anyway I enjoyed this episode.  I can't really articulate why.  Summarizing the episode it sounds like everything I've hated since the apocalypse and yet I liked it.  I've decided not to question it and hope it continues.

Yeah, the Hannah of last year was interesting and showed signs of complexity. This year she seems to have defaulted to the angelic standard of "ZOMG! Former comrade-in-arms disagrees with me about what we should do with directionless freedom—MUST KILL THE HERETIC!!!1!"

 

I'm guessing she's really trying to keep the angels that did return from descending.  Didn't they do that episode where Sam and Dean learned that Heaven was extremely boring.  She will inevitably die and give Cas her grace to save him.

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Cas got sent away because it was best for Sam, but not really.

Personally I think Cas got sent away because of Destiel. S8 really fed that potential for many and that is 'not the story they are telling' per cast and writers. I ADORE Cas/Dean but don't Destiel. So, I'm kinda bitter that they are ruthlessly deconstructing a beautiful friendship because they couldn't see obvious/completely reasonable interpretations to what they wrote before. JMO YMMV.  

Edited by SueB
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