House Tyrell: Uprooted

[Lady S.]

22 hours ago, screamin said:

She's still a woman, and the men are legally the heads of the house. Mace rashly makes public promises to back Renly over Stannis at Loras' behest, and it's a fact - however much a Queen of Thorns she is, she has no authority to countermand him, regardless of how much hell she gives him behind the scenes. House Tyrell would lose all credibility in misogynist Westeros if he went back on his pledged word under his mother's scolding. Her role is to work behind the scenes and do damage control, wearily making sure the Tyrells have the money to cash the checks Mace's mouth wrote.

OK, but the issue is, why should we think she wanted to countermand him wrt King Tommen? You said she was proven right by the failure of a marraige which, by all appearences, she fully supported. Backing Renly without her say so didn't actually do the family any harm. In fact, were it not for Shadow Stan Jr., Renly could well have defeated his brother and the Lannisters both and left the Tyrells free to dominate his court. I just think it's odd to say Olenna resented Mace and Loras's game of thrones playing when Loras is only to blame for the Renly plot and her favorite, Marg, was the most gung-ho about the far more dangerous Lannister allaince. If Olenna didn't support Margy's ambitions, why did this not result in conflict between them? Instead she just urged Marg to seduce Tommen as soon as possible, promising that he'd be an easier husband than Joffrey. No doubt Mace would have wanted this 3rd marriage anyway but Olenna was actually the first to suggest it. Furthermore, we only have Olenna's word about Mace not listening to her told to Cersei and Sansa, the woman whose son she murdered and the girl she framed for said murder. Is it not possible that the woman who wondered what kind of person would murder a man at a wedding would play down her own power when it suited her? In any case, there's nothing to suggest that King Tommen was an issue which she needed Mace to listen to her about.

[screamin]

2 hours ago, Lady S. said:

OK, but the issue is, why should we think she wanted to countermand him wrt King Tommen? You said she was proven right by the failure of a marraige which, by all appearences, she fully supported. Backing Renly without her say so didn't actually do the family any harm. In fact, were it not for Shadow Stan Jr., Renly could well have defeated his brother and the Lannisters both and left the Tyrells free to dominate his court. I just think it's odd to say Olenna resented Mace and Loras's game of thrones playing when Loras is only to blame for the Renly plot and her favorite, Marg, was the most gung-ho about the far more dangerous Lannister allaince.

Actually, after the death of Renly, Loras was also gung-ho for allying with the Lannisters, for revenge on Stannis for the murder of Renly. And I think in the books it was very clear that Mace doted on Loras and followed his lead - not his mother's.

[Lady S.]

31 minutes ago, screamin said:

Actually, after the death of Renly, Loras was also gung-ho for allying with the Lannisters, for revenge on Stannis for the murder of Renly. And I think in the books it was very clear that Mace doted on Loras and followed his lead - not his mother's.

Not so in the show, where in both the scene with LF in 2.05 and the alternate deleted scene, he's too consumed with grief to care about family ambition while Marg still has her eye to the future and being THE Queen. Marg was the first to move from Renly to Joff,. just as Olenna was the first to move on from Joffrey to Tommen. Loras continued playing his part out of family duty and hatred of Stannis, but he was practically gritting his teeth when begging Joff to take Marg as his bride, probably because he was the only one of them who'd actually met Joffrey. So, again, how was Loras more to blame for getting in bed with the Iions than Marg or Olenna? (I wouldn't really count joining the KG in the books as being gung ho either, he did that to guard his sister, not to ingratiate himself with her new in-laws. Being keen on fighting Stannis isn't the same as wanting to marry into their fellow Stannis-fighters.)

I also wouldn't say the show has done anything to establish Mace being led by Loras instead of by Olenna. Not when he has followed his mother's lead in every single scene they've had together, from shutting up and getting lost when he interrupted her wedding talk with Tywin to inviting her to join him on the small council meetings to help deal with the Faith Militant to asking her wtf just happened when they failed to deal with the Faith Militant.(Cersei would've loved to have such control over her sons. Even Tommen broke free of her influence by the end.)At most I can believe Mace and Loras crowned Renly without bothering to consult her, not that they made deals with both Renly and Tywin against her will. Olenna may not have been a grasping social climber, but even in that first scene with Sansa she acts pretty cavalier about going along with her oafish son and seeing things through with the Lannisters, and after she did nothing but support Marg's efforts to be the Queen. So I really don't think Olenna opposed Marg's musical royal husbands in principle or ever dreamed in her worst nightmares of the game of thrones being only a danger to their Houses with no worthwhile benefits.

[Luckylyn]

It's interesting that Olenna was her House's strongest protector but that she inadvertently helped destroy her house.  Tywin and Tyrion were the only Lannisters to truly appreciate the Tyrell alliance.   Tywin and Tyrion have been the most pragmatic people and understood the Tyrell contribution (funds, food, and soldiers).  By killing Joffery and framing Tyrion, she took out one supporter (Tyrion) and then unexpectedly it led to Tyrion eliminating Tywin their other Tyrell supporter.  That left weak Tommon who wasn't strong enough to protect anyone from Cersei's machinations.  Olenna actions got rid of the only buffers House Tyrell had from Cersei's viciousness.  She wanted to protect Margery from Joffery, but their were consequences that made things worse.  Olenna's focusing all her rage at Cersei,  but Olenna played a part in weakening her house.  She underestimated how much damage Cersei could do and overestimated the value in Margery being able to manipulate Tommen.  What made Tommen malleable to Margery also made him vulnerable to the Sparrows. Tommen was the sort to be manipulated by almost anyone even against Tyrell/Lannister interests.   Still, she couldn't have foreseen Tyrion killing Tywin but framing Tyrion was I think an error since Tyrion was a potential aid to getting around Cersei.  It would have been better to try to use Tyrion than try to eliminate him.  I wonder why Tyrion and Sansa were Olenna and Littlefinger's targets.  Joffery was widely hated and another could have been framed.  Was Olenna trying to weaken the Lannisters by getting rid of one of their best strategists and cause fighing within the family which would then make the family more vulnerable to Tyrell influence?

[screamin]

On 7/21/2016 at 11:45 PM, Lady S. said:

Not so in the show, where in both the scene with LF in 2.05 and the alternate deleted scene, he's too consumed with grief to care about family ambition while Marg still has her eye to the future and being THE Queen. Marg was the first to move from Renly to Joff,. just as Olenna was the first to move on from Joffrey to Tommen.

However grief-stricken Loras was, he would never have consented to the Tyrells siding with Stannis, the murderer of his lover. And that's what the Tyrells are now up against, due to Loras' power-hungry scheming. They took sides with Renly (the man without a claim) against Stannis. If Stannis wins the war, he will have the Tyrells' heads as traitors, unless they pre-empt his vengeance by bending the knee to him NOW and begging his pardon most humbly while putting their armies at his service (and even then he'd likely exact some punishment for their former faithlessness - look how he treated Davos, who saved his life). However disgusted Loras was with Joff, do you think he'd have bent the knee to Stannis instead?

On 7/21/2016 at 11:45 PM, Lady S. said:

So, again, how was Loras more to blame for getting in bed with the Iions than Marg or Olenna?

We're talking specifically about the QoT here. Margaery was the one with the most sympathy with her grandmother among all the family, but they were certainly not one flesh. We saw that Margaery was in fact more in sympathy with her ambitious brother than her grandma (to the point of being willing to get in bed with her brother AND her reluctant husband to get an heir). If Margaery was ambitious to be a queen, we can't say it must've been because of the QoT, because they are two separate people with their own agendas that we cannot assume always match...as was made abundantly clear when Margaery was blindsided by the QoT's revelation of how she'd murdered Joffrey and framed Sansa and Tyrion for it to protect Margaery from the deadly trap her ambitions had gotten her into.

[screamin]

20 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

I wonder why Tyrion and Sansa were Olenna and Littlefinger's targets.  Joffery was widely hated and another could have been framed.  Was Olenna trying to weaken the Lannisters by getting rid of one of their best strategists and cause fighing within the family which would then make the family more vulnerable to Tyrell influence?

Littlefinger had a grudge against Tyrion; he also wanted a shake-up that would give him an opportunity to 'rescue' Sansa and have her be absolutely dependent on him for protection - since everywhere else she's wanted as Joffrey's murderer. As for Olenna, it was no doubt common knowledge that Tyrion loathed King Joffrey, slapped him in the face; he's the likeliest suspect. Also it's probably common knowledge that Tywin (the true power behind the throne) loathed Tyrion and was likely to believe the worst of him. All in all, Tyrion looked like the perfect fall guy.

[screamin]

24 minutes ago, doram said:

Mace didn't back from the stupid alliance with Renly - not because his credibility - but because of his own silly pride and ambition. Olenna had her own chance to be married into a ruling family, and she ran like hell. Mace had designs of someday becoming a King's grandfather and decided to back the Baratheon that looked more likely to be King, not the one that had more right. 

I'm not disagreeing with any of that.

[Advance35]

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 If Margaery was ambitious to be a queen, we can't say it must've been because of the QoT, because they are two separate people with their own agendas that we cannot assume always match...as was made abundantly clear when Margaery was blindsided by the QoT's revelation of how she'd murdered Joffrey and framed Sansa and Tyrion for it to protect Margaery from the deadly trap her ambitions had gotten her into.

Agreed in the sense that I don't think Margaery was a puppet of Olenna's.  I think they fed off each other in that two crafty minds can work together for House Tyrell's benefit.  I guess ambition wasn't the downfall of House Tyrell, I'd say it was more "hubris."  The Tyrells were the smoothest operators in the Seven Kingdoms however they like all of Westeros knew that the Lannister's had worked to systematically sub-plant and drive into extinction (even if unofficially), House Baratheon.   They dealt the seemingly mortal blow of the Red Wedding to House Stark.  I don't understand why they didn't think House Lannister as a whole was to insane to ever be allied with, let alone allies on paper only, as the Tyrells were scheming to muscle them out of control of the Iron Throne anyway.

Even if the maniac Cersei weren't the defacto head of House and Tywin had still been around, Did the Tyrell's think the Lannisters would just take that lying down?  In Season 2 Tywin and LF spoke about how The Tyrells had betrayed the throne by supporting Renly and LF seemed to intimate that Tywin would pay the Lannister debt to House Tyrell "someday."  I understand how it happened but I still say "How did they not see it coming."

[Ambrosefolly]

On June 29, 2016 at 5:28 PM, slf said:

Margaery Tyrell marrying Robb Stark is one of my favorite AUs to think about. Her political cunning combined with his military genius...they'd both be alive and King and Queen. They could have crushed the Lannisters from either side, North and South. Walder Frey would not have thought about the Red Wedding at all. And Margaery would have brought the bounty of Highgarden with her to the North. Sansa could've been saved and she and Margaery would be good-sisters, Catelyn would be alive, Arya might very well be home by now, Rickon too, and Margaery and Robb would be having hot sex.

[slf]

It's weird, the show's writers ditched huge chunks of characterization (sometimes entire characters) and motivation, but kept their actions so it's difficult at times to make sense of why a character on the show is doing this or that. In the books it's really Mace's ambitions and misplaced trust in Littlefinger that leads to the family ending up in a situation they can't control. In the show it's more Olenna's hubris and miscalculations.

[Advance35]

I actually think they line up rather well for the most part.   LF knew what he  was getting House Tyrell into in both books and show but I think both version convey that while The Tyrells managed to deal with the perceived threat of Joffrey, they failed to recognize the sleeping giant that is Cersei Lannister, or did they?  I mean they could not have counted on events shaking out how they did, with Tyrion murdering Tywin, who would have thought that Cersei would end up representing all of House Lannister in Kings Landing.   I think the Tyrells were counting on Tywin being around and they knew he understood the value of the Lannister/Tyrell alliance.  They were counting on being able to supplant House Lannister in a Courtly war.   And if Tywin and Tyrion had been alive and in Kings Landing I think House Tyrell would have ultimately won their subtle campaign for supremacy.   They didn't count on Cersei turning the whole thing into kill or be killed combat.

I do think Margaery recognized that her feud with Cersei was to the death I just think she didn't think Cersei would be willing to slaughter the entire Royal Court to do it (until it was too late).  I think Margaery allied with the High Sparrow with a mind for a deadly end to Cersei's trial.    The High Sparrow was willing to work with Margaery because she was willing to get in line on the surface.   It was Margaery that cemented the rapport between The High Sparrow and Tommen after all.   She was willing to feed Tommen to the Faith Militant to save Loras and probably thought she would be able to seduce her way into controlling Tommen again down the road, which I don't think was a bad plan.   She just didn't realize what a Mad woman Cersei was.   Margery's way was more subtle but I do think she knew that the High Sparrow intended to  see Cersei dead.

Now LF knew what kind of creature Cersei is and he probably knew that House Lannister and House Tyrell would ultimately end up destroying each other, but LF was heavily involved with the fall of Great Houses Arryn, Baratheon, Stark and Tully.  When he met with Margaery and Loras and accompanied them to High Garden after fleeing Renly's camp, he met (we are led to believe) both Mace and Olenna, he knew that The Lannisters and The Tyrells would end up cannibalizing each other.

In a way I find the feud between House Lannister and House Tyrell even more fascinating and gripping then that of House Lannister and House Stark.  With the latter, there is nothing personal or I should say, no personal interaction other then with Sansa, who's at a crippling disadvantage.   While the former offers many dynamics at play, Tywin/Olenna, Cersei/Olenna, Cersei/Margaery, Cersei/Loras, Jaimie/Loras, Tyrion/Olenna.

Though they ultimately lost, House Tyrell did far more damage to House Lannister than House Stark did or could at this point.

[Advance35]

Cool scene released with regards to House Tyrell.   It's a deleted scene between Olenna and Mace Tyrell discussing the state of things in the beginning of the Season.   Olenna recounts to Mace, how he had been fooled by Cersei into leaving Kings Landing so that she could make her move against Margaery and Loras.  I liked that Mace wasn't as passive as he has been in the past.  He put Olenna on notice that they are his children and he's cares and fears for their welfare too.  You see the exasperation but also the love between Olenna and Mace.

They also discuss how Kevan Lannister has asked that she join the Small Council and that their ultimate goal is to see to it that Loras and Margaery are freed and then to leave Kings Landing.   It sounds like they were willing to surrender Margaery's claim to the Throne and were confident that House Lannister and The Sparrows would destroy each other.   That fits with what we were shown since it seemed like Olenna wanted Margarey to return to Highgarden while Mace and Olenna stayed being and oversaw Loras's trial.   If the Sparrow hadn't threatened Olenna and instilled fear in Margaery, I wonder if Margaery would have been willing to play it that way.   In those circumstances Mace, Loras and Olenna would have died and Margaery would be left to avenge them and possibly shore up support with a marriage or something.

It was sad to see the scene because House Tyrell really were awesome schemers.

[Advance35]

Well one rose does not make up a garden but it was VERY good to see Lady Olenna again.  Though I am worried about her.  Cersei and Jaimie scheming to steal her bannerman out from under her is shrewd and is potentially very effective.  Funnily enough, it mirrors Olenna's comment about Cersei in season 4.  She told Margaery that it is fortunate that Cersei is distracted grieving the loss of her son and wouldn't notice what House Tyrell was up too and now all this time later, Olenna is grieving her murdered family and isn't keeping track of things she likely would during normal times.

Her world view has clearly changed.  The people are "sheep" and Nobles and Commoners are all just children who will follow whomever inspires the most fear.  Her commenting to Dany that her Grand Daughter was loved by Nobles and Commoners alike, the most loved Queen she can recall, and for all that, she's just ash now.  Olenna puts on a good front but she is understandably heartbroken over everything and I feel like that really comes through.   I think her new attitude is a mixture of mourning all that she's lost and a genuine belief that might can equal right. Olenna doesn't want to wage a PR war against Cersei, she did that, both she and Margaery did, and they won.  That' when Cersei kicked over the game board.

I was surprised that Dany reached out to Olenna at the end of the meeting.  I don't think Olenna was especially moved by Dany's condolences or her assurance that Cersei will pay for what she's done.   What doesn't kill you can make you stronger but it can also make you HARDER.

[RedheadZombie]

Well show Tyrell house is now gone.  While it's sad, they were nakedly ambitious, and a little too eager to jump sides to whomever held power.   Maybe this led to her bannermen having no allegiance to their house in the end.

[Lady S.]

It's somewhat fitting that the perpetual turncloaks were undone by one of their generals betraying them out of ambition (with a considerable helping of xenophobia) for Highgarden, which they only held after the previous rulers were all wiped out.

 

On 7/22/2016 at 0:08 PM, Luckylyn said:

 I wonder why Tyrion and Sansa were Olenna and Littlefinger's targets.  Joffery was widely hated and another could have been framed.  Was Olenna trying to weaken the Lannisters by getting rid of one of their best strategists and cause fighing within the family which would then make the family more vulnerable to Tyrell influence?

I always assumed Littlefinger made the frame-up choices and Olenna didn't care so long as no one looked in the Tyrells' direction. I don't think she really had reason to recognize Tyrion as a strategic asset to his family. Oberyn would have been the best alternative fall guy but if the creep supplying the poison has his own targets, why not let him handle it?

At least she realized she had some part in spreading the disease of Cersei by allowing Tyrion to be framed for Joffrey's murder. 

[Advance35]

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It's somewhat fitting that the perpetual turncloaks were undone by one of their generals betraying them out of ambition (with a considerable helping of xenophobia) for Highgarden, which they only held after the previous rulers were all wiped out.

It's also extra sad for me because I feel like the Tyrells were VERY good at subtle supplanting.  Had they been in a Courtly War against the Starks, The Baratheons, The Tullys and likely even The Martells, they probably would have cleaned up.   And The Tyrells are the reason House Lannister didn't fall, Stannis would have killed Joffrey and Cersei if the Tyrells hadn't joined their forces with Tywin.

For all her hatred and though I was a fan of the character, Cersei and Olenna are a lot alike.  Olenna's assassination of Joffrey in front of his Mother and Family takes a certain audaciousness, that many characters don't have.  Cersei has that think outside the box cranked up to 25.  But even at her end, Olenna used her last moments, not to reflect, but to inflict pain.  She set up Jaimie for a verbal KO and she also knew that it was dig into Cersei to think about all those times Olenna was within feet of her, snarking at her, while hurting Cersei more than anyone ever has. And you can tell, Olenna savors that in the end.  On the other hand, you can hardly blame her.

I don't think there is much that can hurt Cersei on an emotional level anymore but Olenna found a way from beyond the grave.  When Cersei realizes it was Olenna that murdered Joffrey, you can see the pain on her face.