Star Wars Rebels - General Discussion

[readster]

I know what you mean. Because you have that feeling of an end in the trailer, I also like they are explaining that the Death Star is taking up more money and time as Krennic would have some say on the TIE Defender. 

[Morrigan2575]

I didn't realize the show was coming back this week. Thankfully my DVR picked it up. 

There's a scene between Hera and Laban that reminds me so much of Han/Leia on Hoth 

[DarkRaichu]

For a second I thought they were going to kill all clan Wren at the end of ep1.  :P

Bo Katan was a nice call back to CW

I like how Sabine's dad was a non-warrior / artist 

Why was using Sabine's invention not a Mandalorian way but leaving an exploding Star Destroyer full of KOd Stormtroopers was a ok? That weapon could have been the turning point vs the Empire.  It could be set to stun / not kill, so what's the freaking problem ???

[Morrigan2575]

Yeah, I really didn't get that. The initial design is one of mass destruction and shouldn't be used but, a few tweeks here and there.

Of course the bigger problem, that I could see is that unlike Madalorians, the Empire has no historical connection to their armor. So a weapon designed to target the properties of a Storm Trooper Armor would a short term weapon. Unless the Emperor is too cheap to buy/manufacturer new armor ?

 

Quote

For a second I thought they were going to kill all clan Wren at the end of ep1.  :P

I very often forget that Star Wars Rebels is aimed at kids. My first thought when they were standing around during the Sabine/Dad reunion was "here it comes, sniper shot to the back, dead dad after emotional reunion". When that didn't happen and they cut to The Dutches and Clan Wren, I thought "oh here we go, Sabine gets her dad back but, mom and brother die, poor Sabine".

There are times when I expect the show to go very dark because I forget I'm not the target audience. ?

Edited October 17, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[paulvdb]

1 hour ago, DarkRaichu said:

That weapon could have been the turning point vs the Empire.  It could be set to stun / not kill, so what's the freaking problem ???

Maybe I misunderstood how the weapon worked, but I thought it heated up the armor so that the person inside it would burn to death. I don't think you can set something like that to stun.

[DarkRaichu]

1 hour ago, paulvdb said:

Maybe I misunderstood how the weapon worked, but I thought it heated up the armor so that the person inside it would burn to death. I don't think you can set something like that to stun.

Tiber Saxon originally set it to hurt Sabine and Bo-Katan but not to kill them.  After Sabine modified the weapon, it was also set to stun. The stormtroopers were NOT burn to crisp like Wren soldiers at the end of part 1.  Before the Star Destroyer exploded, you can see Saxon (still alive) moving towards the damaged weapon core.  So the it did not need to be set to maximum to be good enough to immobilize the enemy

[ganesh]

I loved the non stop fighting and aerial maneuvers in these episodes. Granted they didn't kill her mother, but the weapon she designed still killed her own people. That's steep for a kids' show. 

I feel like if Mandalore got their house in order they'd probably would have slaughtered the Empire. How high can jet packs go? I would think getting to the upper atmosphere would stall them out. 

I liked that Kanan used force push a few times while fighting. It always mystifies me how jedi seemingly never use force powers as part of combat. Honestly, the saber should only be needed to defend blaster fire. You can just toss everyone around and yank their weapons. 

I can't figure out how they're going to get rid of Thrawn to maintain the movie continuity. It's laughable that just a major asset is nowhere to be found. Unless the series ends with him suffering a huge defeat.

Honestly though, Ezra was right: wear different armor. Yes, it has history, but your history is killing you. 

[ZoqFotPik]

On 10/17/2017 at 2:03 AM, DarkRaichu said:

Why was using Sabine's invention not a Mandalorian way but leaving an exploding Star Destroyer full of KOd Stormtroopers was a ok? That weapon could have been the turning point vs the Empire.  It could be set to stun / not kill, so what's the freaking problem ???

I think had to do with how the Imperials died. Using the weapon to kill them is dishonorable, but them dying from secondary explosions is not. Their mission was to destroy the weapon and if storm troopers die because the weapon exploding destroys the ship they're on, well shit happens. Think of like this, if you attack a chemical weapons depot with intent of destroying the weapons, but use them to kill the guards first, that's a war crime. But, if in process of attacking a destroying the weapons, all the guards die, well that's just war. Admittedly, it's a fine line, but it's there.

[ganesh]

Splitting that hair awfully thin though. Would using Sabine's weapon be a war crime? 

[call me ishmael]

I don't think they were saying it was a war crime but that it was cowardly.  Mandalorians seem to still believe in face to face combat and skill.  Using the weapon would just have wiped out your opponents from a distance.  And in terms of leaving the stormtroopers did Sabine know that slicing the weapon would destroy the ship?  I figured it was just a question of there was an explosion and everyone was on their own (or at least each side was in their own).

[ganesh]

I concede the point, but I just don't agree with them. Clearly the Mandalorians have a way of how they do things. This is a galactic war and I don't think the planets under the boot of the empire really care about winning with honor. Mandalorians just aren't invested in the rebellion. I would argue that they hide behind "the right way" as an excuse not to fight the larger war.

[call me ishmael]

There is something to that.  But I think on the one hand that it is too early in the Star Wars timeline to speak of a galactic war.  At this point it is still a fairly small rebel group so I'm not sure you can blame them for not getting the big picture.  Plus there is the old and perfectly legitimate point about not becoming what you are fighting against.  If part of what you are fighting for are a particular culture of fighting it makes perfect sense.

But Sabine aside I've never been that taken with mandalorians.  They make humans seem not destructive.

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, call me ishmael said:

They make humans seem not destructive.

Aren't Mandalorians just humans that live on the Mandalor planet/system?  Like Earthlings would be humans living on Earth or Corellians would be humans living on Corellia?

Edited October 23, 2017 by johntfs

[call me ishmael]

7 minutes ago, johntfs said:

Aren't Mandalorians just humans that live on the Mandalor planet/system?  Like Earthlings would be humans living on Earth or Corellians would be humans living on Corellia?

Sorry, I should have said earthlings.

[ganesh]

3 hours ago, call me ishmael said:

But I think on the one hand that it is too early in the Star Wars timeline to speak of a galactic war.  At this point it is still a fairly small rebel group so I'm not sure you can blame them for not getting the big picture. 

Yes, but they've never been a major factor in the canon. Which is dumb because they would have wrecked shop, but because they aren't in the canon it just makes them look dumb. 

[DarkRaichu]

23 hours ago, ZoqFotPik said:

I think had to do with how the Imperials died. Using the weapon to kill them is dishonorable, but them dying from secondary explosions is not. Their mission was to destroy the weapon and if storm troopers die because the weapon exploding destroys the ship they're on, well shit happens. Think of like this, if you attack a chemical weapons depot with intent of destroying the weapons, but use them to kill the guards first, that's a war crime. But, if in process of attacking a destroying the weapons, all the guards die, well that's just war. Admittedly, it's a fine line, but it's there.

More confusing than fine line, especially on kids show about war / rebellion

11 hours ago, call me ishmael said:

I don't think they were saying it was a war crime but that it was cowardly.  Mandalorians seem to still believe in face to face combat and skill.  Using the weapon would just have wiped out your opponents from a distance.  And in terms of leaving the stormtroopers did Sabine know that slicing the weapon would destroy the ship?  I figured it was just a question of there was an explosion and everyone was on their own (or at least each side was in their own).

And using whatever surprise gadgets they carry in their wrists was ok and not cowardly?  IIRC Sabine used grappling line when saber training with Kanan/Ezra last season.  Or using the freakin rockets on their jetpacks?
And again, it was blatantly shown the weapon does not need to be used in full power to be effective. 

The only explanation I can come up with is they were still bitter the weapon was created especially to annihilate them and refused to use it because of the history.  I wished someone just pointed that out :P

[ganesh]

Funny that I couldn't really stand Saw in Rogue One but on the series, I don't mind. I can't say I like him, but I can buy that the rebel alliance isn't some monolithic body and there's going to be cells that are striking out on their own.

I'm not sure I took the argument of "if we blow up the relay, they'll build another." So blow that one up too. You have to draw a line at some point and assert yourselves. I get that they just wanted to hack it, but given it's location, how strategic was it? 

Please tell me (don't tell me really though) that the series ends with the battle of Yavin. 

Pretend you're still prisoners. We are still prisoners. 

I do like Ezra's frustration. I'm hoping he goes Rogue at the end of the series and is running his own cell during the original trilogy. I'm not buying he's Snope though. 

I tend to agree with Saw on following up to see where they were going to take the crystal. The best bet is to keep the crystal hostage until you find out what you need and then blow it up. 

I found Erza's arguments at that point to be a little naive. The better argument for taking the prisoners with them is that they have the technical expertise to weaponize the crystal, so getting them out of there takes that away too. 

Any chance to blow up a heavy empire ship though, you have to take it. 

Good to see Ezra actually using force powers in combat. 

Edited October 26, 2017 by ganesh

[Morrigan2575]

20 hours ago, ganesh said:

I'm not sure I took the argument of "if we blow up the relay, they'll build another." So blow that one up too. You have to draw a line at some point and assert yourselves. I get that they just wanted to hack it, but given it's location, how strategic was it? 

I thought they were going for that Churchill thing. On a much lighter note.

I'm not sure why but my DVR hasn't been recording Star Wars Rebels although it's programmed too. I ended up watching episodes 3 and 4 on Demand. I enjoyed the Saw episode even though I didn't think the dilemma was that big of an issue. I enjoyed the flirtatious relationship to Hera/Kanen, I forgot how they cute they are together. 

I have a feeling the series finale is going to make me cry. The team showing up on Yavin 4 and, knowing how close they are to Rogue One/A New Hope has me worrying over every characters fate.

[call me ishmael]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm not sure why but my DVR hasn't been recording Star Wars Rebels although it's programmed too. I ended up watching episodes 3 and 4 on Demand. I enjoyed the Saw episode even though I didn't think the dilemma was that big of an issue. I enjoyed the flirtatious relationship to Hera/Kanen, I forgot how they cute they are together. 

Do you have it set up to only tape first-run episodes?  My DVR seems to think they are all reruns so i either have to let it tape or every episode when it airs or set the new ones up by hand in advance.

Edited October 26, 2017 by call me ishmael
Proofreading is a blessing

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, call me ishmael said:

Do you have it set up to only tape first-run episodes?  My DVR seems to think they are all reruns so i either have to let it tape or every episode when it airs or set the new ones up by hand in advance.

Yes I do. I'll change it to first run and repeats. Thanks.

[DarkRaichu]

Maybe 1 of you can help me figure this out: how did Mon Mothma become the de-facto leader of the rebellion ????  All we saw last season was she showed up, made a speech, and most of the factions showed up in front of the Ghost.  How did she get to decide how the rebellion should be conducted?

[ganesh]

She was a senator and then publicly resigned. We've seen that Organa also a senator supports her. So I think she has some claim to leadership.

 

But I think they could have drawn out a better debate vs her way and Saw because it makes her out to be the sole leader and it's a good question as to why everyone just accepts her. 

[DarkRaichu]

Holy crap this show is so good too bad it is ending. It is like 1 long satisfying movie

- Lothal is now desolate
- Thrawn is either crazy or brave, facing off vs TIE Defender Elite with a freakin hand blaster
- That white LothWolf.  Ezra's Force Animal Communication skill is very handy
- Lol at Rex & Kallus 
- Hera & Kanan - ship ;)
- I have a feeling Ezra is staying at Lothal by the end of the series

[ganesh]

I would love if Ezra, Sabine, and Thrawn were actually off BAMFing all over the galactic rim and wiping out all these power adversaries while the rest of them were having their little father-son spat. I mean, "hey, let me see if I can shoot the ship down with my hand blaster". The thing is, he actually scored a direct hit. When they switch to the cockpit view, you see the shot hit, but it was just too weak to have an effect. 

Thrawn nailed the op too: Huh. Transponder is off. It's the Mandalorean. Not Hera because you're ships would have been toast already. How much autonomy does Thrawn actually have? He seems untouchable. I just can't see him falling out of favor, unless someone launches a huge fake news campaign on him, nor really suffering a huge defeat.

I like how they've been keeping on with Ezra being able to communicate with nonhuman sentient beings. Also now he's Jedi Jon Snow with his own direwolf. 

"I wish I could see you." "You've always seen me." *swooooooonn*

On 10/30/2017 at 11:33 PM, DarkRaichu said:

I have a feeling Ezra is staying at Lothal by the end of the series

Or, Lothal completely falls, and he goes out into the galaxy to fight for other worlds that also didn't have a chance. It's been clear on the show that Lothal is an afterthought, and Ezra doesn't like it. He specifically mentioned Saw this episode. Otherwise, it seems like he wants to stay there for the time being. 

[johntfs]

12 minutes ago, ganesh said:

I just can't see him falling out of favor, unless someone launches a huge fake news campaign on him, nor really suffering a huge defeat.

I think in some way the best ways to deal with Thrawn would be to allow him to capture the Jedi and Sith Holocrons as well as Hera and Kanen.  Thrawn can examine the holocrons and Kanen can help him understand them.  Soon enough he'll come to the conclusion that Palpatine is a Sith - someone who gains power from dark emotions like fear, anger and hatred.  So, he reigns in a cartoonishly evil fashion to keep the Empire seething with corruption and rebellion to maintain an all-you-eat power buffet.  So the Empire, by design, will never be a lawful, orderly place with the current government.  As he comes to realize that he can also tutor Hera in the military sciences, honing her already keen skills to lightsaber sharpness.

Edited November 3, 2017 by johntfs

[paulvdb]

5 hours ago, ganesh said:

How much autonomy does Thrawn actually have? He seems untouchable. I just can't see him falling out of favor, unless someone launches a huge fake news campaign on him, nor really suffering a huge defeat.

Thrawn is a grand admiral. I don't know the organisation of the Empire's military but that sounds like a high rank, so there would be very few people who are ranked higher than Thrawn. As such he probably has a lot of autonomy.

As far as his later absence is concerned, in the books he was sent on a mission to the Outer Rim to investigate a new potential threat to the Empire that would later turn out to be the Yuuzhan Vong. But the entire Expanded Universe was declared non-canon when The Force Awakens came out so they'll have to come up with something new to explain his absence during the events of A New Hope, Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi.

[ganesh]

I could live with him coming to the realization that Palpatine and Vader are Sith and what that means. Even Thrawn can't fight that. That basically means he deserts. Unless he decides to take Ezra back to his own world and secure it from the Empire. I just can see him being forced out at this point. Unless he's the ranking officer at the battle of Yahvin? 

[johntfs]

5 hours ago, ganesh said:

Unless he's the ranking officer at the battle of Yahvin? 

If Thrawn was at the Battle of Yavin, the Rebels lose the Battle of Yavin

 

5 hours ago, ganesh said:

Even Thrawn can't fight that.

Thrawn took down a Force God in the Season Three finale.  He could absolutely fight that.  However, he might discern the existence/identity of Luke and decide to allow the Rebels/Jedi their own chance to deal with Palpatine and Vader.  In the meantime he'd be in the Outer Rim/Unknown Regions building forces to deal with equally deadly threats out there and biding his time against the need for his return.  I'd love it if he showed back up in Star Wars 9 to help drop the shit-hammer on Snoke and the New Order.

[ganesh]

Who, Bendu? "Took down" is rather generous. Bendu kicked them all off the planet, essentially. I'd say that was a stalemate at best. I'm hard pressed to think Thrawn could defeat Palpatine AND Vader in open battle. To what end either? Thrawn doesn't want to rule the Empire. I'm hoping that he concludes that this all really isn't worth it and leaves. 

2 hours ago, johntfs said:

I'd love it if he showed back up in Star Wars 9 to help drop the shit-hammer on Snoke and the New Order.

Preferably with a ridiculously powerful Ahsoka and Ezra. I mean, these characters are canon now. 

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

Preferably with a ridiculously powerful Ahsoka and Ezra. I mean, these characters are canon now.

Nah, figure Rey is going to be the one to deal with Snoke and Kylo Ren.  Figure with Han Solo dead in the movie and Carrie Fisher dead in real life, they might bring in Thrawn as a kind of "elder statesman" of the Empire determined to make amends for past misdeeds.

Hux: Thrawn?  You're with the Resistance?!

Thrawn: As far as I am concerned, the Resistance is an arm of the Restored Republic, the legitimate government of this portion of the Galaxy.  I find nothing especially new about your New Order.  You are a well-armed collection of pirates and criminals who have married the soul-crushing despotism that was the worst of the Empire with the lawless terrorism that was the worst of the Rebellion.  Removing your stain from the galaxy is both a duty and a pleasure.

Edited November 3, 2017 by johntfs

[ganesh]

No, obviously Rey is central to the original story line for the movies. 

[DarkRaichu]

5 hours ago, ganesh said:

Who, Bendu? "Took down" is rather generous. Bendu kicked them all off the planet, essentially. I'd say that was a stalemate at best. I'm hard pressed to think Thrawn could defeat Palpatine AND Vader in open battle. To what end either? Thrawn doesn't want to rule the Empire. I'm hoping that he concludes that this all really isn't worth it and leaves. 

Well, technically Thrawn had his AT-ATs shot Bendu's "storm form" until it fell down from the sky.  Bendu was lying on the ground before pulling Obi Wan's disappearing act as Thrawn shot him with his hand blaster

23 hours ago, ganesh said:

Also now he's Jedi Jon Snow with his own direwolf. 

Triple likes for this :D :D :D 

[ganesh]

I don't remember the battle fully, but I'd still say given the collateral damage to Thrawn's forces and the fact they got kicked off the planet, that is was a stalemate. And we know Bendu became one with the force, so it's not like Thrawn killed him. Anyone else though, this would have been a slaughter, so I don't take anything away from Thrawn's considerable talent. 

My main point initially was that given Thrawn's skills, and the fact we know he's not anywhere near the original trilogy, the task of removing him from the main universe is daunting imo. It would seem a waste if he was actually defeated unless there was an enormous price, or if there was some weird contrivance where he's sent away. 

I like the idea of him 'figuring out' what's really going on and becoming disillusioned with what he's actually doing for the empire. I mean, they had the same thing happen on the show with Kalus, so there's precedent. 

I always love the premise of the 'unholy alliance' where Thrawn and the gang end up joining forces. 

[DarkRaichu]

Re-watch the last episode of season 3. Objectively speaking, Thrawn won the battle of Atollon.  Of course he did not crush the rebellion cells gathered in Atollon, but he still managed to destroy most of their forces, got 1 of their leaders killed (Sato), and destroyed Chopper base.  All those at the cost of 2 anti-hyperjump Cruisers, a few AT-DTs, AT-ATs, and a handful of TIEs.  Thrwan and his deathtroopers even managed to surround Kanan & Co before Bendu interfered.  Yes some stormtroopers ran away at the sight of Bendu, but Thrawn stayed with his Deathtroopers and AT-ATs and shot Bendu down.  Thrawn technically forced a Force creature to leave this plane of existence to be one with the force.  Thrawn & his troops were the ones left standing on Atallon

On the other hand, the Ghost crews and whatever left of Phoenix Squadron only escaped by the skin of their teeth.  That was not a stalemate

Although given how Thrawn was legitimately good at this job, I agree that removing him out of the picture convincingly before Ep4/R1 would be a very hard task for the showrunners.

Edited November 4, 2017 by DarkRaichu

[ganesh]

I'm not going to rewatch. There's far too much original programming on television, and I have a long queue. Suffice it to say we're in agreement that Thrawn is a considerable adversary, and if Palpatine is as all knowing as he thinks he is, there's no way he'd willingly waste that asset. 

It would be awesome if Thrawn's forces were providing defensive support for the death star, but then were sent away on another mission for some reason. 

[johntfs]

48 minutes ago, ganesh said:

I'm not going to rewatch. There's far too much original programming on television, and I have a long queue. Suffice it to say we're in agreement that Thrawn is a considerable adversary, and if Palpatine is as all knowing as he thinks he is, there's no way he'd willingly waste that asset. 

It would be awesome if Thrawn's forces were providing defensive support for the death star, but then were sent away on another mission for some reason. 

Of course Palpatine would waste Thrawn.  As a Grand Admiral commanding great respect/fear in the Imperial Forces, Thrawn is likely the most dangerous adversary Palpatine and Vader could fear to face.  Hell, Thrawn just proved he could defeat someone at least close to the Emperor's level given what happened with Bendu.  The things keeping Thrawn alive in Palpatine's mind are his sheer usefulness and the fact that he is honestly, genuinely loyal to Palpatine and the Empire.  I suspect that Thrawn's fall will come because the Rebels achieve some relatively minor victory that Palpatine can use as an excuse to have him executed (or try to, with Thrawn escaping into the Unknown Regions).

As to your second point, Spoilers for the book, Thrawn:

Spoiler

In the book Thrawn has actually figured out that the Death Star or at least some kind of "Ultimate Weapon" exists - and he thinks it's a stupid idea.  He believes the Emperor would be far better able to maintain order and crush resistance by spending the resources going into the "Death Star" on conventional forces like ships and troops instead.  He's certainly right about that, but he assumes that the Emperor's goal actually is to crush resistance and not to simply spread terror and anger across the galaxy, the better to maintain and expand his own personal power in the Force.

Edited November 4, 2017 by johntfs

[ganesh]

Is the book considered canon or is it EU? I don't want to read the spoilers in case they play into this series. 

[ganesh]

33 minutes ago, johntfs said:

The things keeping Thrawn alive in Palpatine's mind are his sheer usefulness and the fact that he is honestly, genuinely loyal to Palpatine and the Empire. 

But then why would Palpatine consider him an adversary? It's not like the Sith deal where you expect your apprentice to try to take you out eventually. I would guess Palpatine would consider the "regular" military to be a pawn for him. And, when ANH rolled around (and R1), Vader was still largely treated as Palpatine's bitch. Threats to his power aren't really manifest till after the Death Star was destroyed and Vader takes up that vacuum. 

33 minutes ago, johntfs said:

I suspect that Thrawn's fall will come because the Rebels achieve some relatively minor victory that Palpatine can use as an excuse to have him executed (or try to, with Thrawn escaping into the Unknown Regions).

And this is the salient point. I'm having a hard time seeing how Thrawn could have a "fall". The only real defeat of the Empire will be Yavin 4 prior to the movies. Unless he's involved with that, then the show has to make up another similar level defeat, which seems unlikely, since it means there's a Thrawn defeat, Y4, R1 (which he had nothing to do with), then ANH. That's a 4 in a row loss which seems really unlikely. 

Edited November 4, 2017 by ganesh

[johntfs]

Edited November 4, 2017 by johntfs

[ganesh]

11 minutes ago, johntfs said:

What would his response likely be to the idea that the Empire is being rules by a Sith sorcerer?  Probably not good for Palpatine.

That's also a telling point. I guess that begs the question about what Thrawn knows about Palpatine or Vader. It's not like Vader isn't out and about at this point doing things with the force. Both Palpatine and Vader are looking for apprentices. There are/were Inquisitors. It's hard to think that Thrawn doesn't know that they use the force too. 

14 minutes ago, johntfs said:

What defeat at Yavin 4 are you talking about?

I thought the battle of Yavin was the first major win for the rebellion prior to ANH, but it actually means the final battle in ANH where the death star was destroyed. So Thrawn clearly had nothing to do with the plans for the death star being stolen. Because he would have blown up the transmission tower himself by skydiving through the shield wall and blasting the transmitter with his blaster. 

23 minutes ago, johntfs said:

Since Tie Defenders/Tie Defender Elite weren't a thing in the original trilogy, it's possible that Thrawn's defeat will be failing to prevent the Rebels from destroying the factory producing the Tie Defenders (and somehow also destroying/corrupting the designs to prevent other factories from being built to resume the work).

That just seems beneath him, and why would a Grand Admiral be directly overseeing a production facility? I much lean to him learning what the Sith really are and just being like, "nope."

[ZoqFotPik]

On 11/3/2017 at 10:53 PM, ganesh said:

Is the book considered canon or is it EU? I don't want to read the spoilers in case they play into this series. 

One of the first things Disney did after buying SW was get rid of the EU. So all books, short stories, and comics published after "A New Dawn" are canon. So the "Thrawn" book is canon.

[call me ishmael]

One of the things that i have always found interesting is the responses to Thrawn (as opposed to Vader) is how no one ever seems to comment on his total indifference to whether his people live or die so long as he gets something out of their deaths.  In this episode he was not bothered by losing 3 pilots so he could get some sense of the new tie-defender.  Somehow that never seems to lose him his odd heroic status.  Vader would kill his men in rage, Thrawn in indifferent calculation.  I'm not sure the latter is any better.  And if Sabine had been less freaked out she could have easily killed him when he was stupidly standing there shooting at the Defender with a pistol.  That was less a sign of his bravery than madness.

Edited November 6, 2017 by call me ishmael
Spelling

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, call me ishmael said:

One of the things that i have always found interesting is the responses to Thrawn (as opposed to Vader) is how no one ever seems to comment on his total indifference to whether his people live or die so long as he gets something out of their deaths.  In this episode he was not bothered by losing 3 pilots so he could get some sense of the new tie-defender.  Somehow that never seems to lose him his odd heroic status.  Vader would kill his men in rage, Thrawn in indifferent calculation.  I'm not sure the latter is any better.  And if Sabine had been less freaked out she could have easily killed him when he was stupidly standing there shooting at the Defender with a pistol.  That was less a sign of his bravery than madness.

Part of it is that unlike most Imperials, Thrawn actually does try to get something useful or positive out of his people's sacrifices.  Yes, three people died, but now the Empire has a really good idea of how well the Tie-Defender Elite will perform in combat (very well).  If the pilots had easily shot the thing down, that would have told the Empire that the Tie-D/E sucked Bantha balls and needed to be scrapped or redesigned.  If you die serving Thrawn, you're dying to some good purpose and not because the black-armored diaper baby had a hissy fit.  I kept expecting something like this to happen with Vader

Vader: You're telling me the Rebels not only escaped but they set the ship to self-destruct?

Officer 1: Yes, Lord Vader.

Vader: (force-chokes the Officer to death while glaring at Officer 2) Find me someone who can deactivate the self-destruct.

Officer 2: (pointing at Officer 1's corpse) That guy was the only one who knew how.  Thanks for killing us all, Lord Douchebag!

As for Thrawn shooting at the Tie D/E, it's illegal to aim a laser pointer at aircraft because they might distract the pilot and cause a crash.  Thrawn was likely trying to distract the pilot (or see if the pilot could be distracted and thus establish his skill level).  Meanwhile, it's pretty hard for a starfighters to shoot human-sized targets.  They might strafe a general area and kill people that way, but actually aiming and firing at a person would be like trying to "snipe" one specific soldier by firing a tank shell at him.

So, yes Thrawn is willing to send people to their (possible/probable) deaths, but he's just as willing to put his own ass on the line and unlike Vader, he doesn't have magic Jedi/Sith superpowers to save himself if things go south.

Edited November 6, 2017 by johntfs

[call me ishmael]

30 minutes ago, johntfs said:

Part of it is that unlike most Imperials, Thrawn actually does try to get something useful or positive out of his people's sacrifices.  Yes, three people died, but now the Empire has a really good idea of how well the Tie-Defender Elite will perform in combat (very well).  If the pilots had easily shot the thing down, that would have told the Empire that the Tie-D/E sucked Bantha balls and needed to be scrapped or redesigned.  If you die serving Thrawn, you're dying to some good purpose and not because the black-armored diaper baby had a hissy fit.  I kept expecting something like this to happen with Vader

Vader: You're telling me the Rebels not only escaped but they set the ship to self-destruct?

Officer 1: Yes, Lord Vader.

Vader: (force-chokes the Officer to death while glaring at Officer 2) Find me someone who can deactivate the self-destruct.

Officer 2: (pointing at Officer 1's corpse) That guy was the only one who knew how.  Thanks for killing us all, Lord Douchebag!

As for Thrawn shooting at the Tie D/E, it's illegal to aim a laser pointer at aircraft because they might distract the pilot and cause a crash.  Thrawn was likely trying to distract the pilot (or see if the pilot could be distracted and thus establish his skill level).  Meanwhile, it's pretty hard for a starfighters to shoot human-sized targets.  They might strafe a general area and kill people that way, but actually aiming and firing at a person would be like trying to "snipe" one specific soldier by firing a tank shell at him.

So, yes Thrawn is willing to send people to their (possible/probable) deaths, but he's just as willing to put his own ass on the line and unlike Vader, he doesn't have magic Jedi/Sith superpowers to save himself if things go south.

Yes i see that but I still don't buy it to be honest.  The notion that all imperials are incompetents except for Thrawn went away a long time ago.  And it doesn't alter the fact that he treats his people like disposable tools for his plans.  I'm not saying that he doesn't have plans but that I am not sure a coldly calculating willingness to treat living beings as fodder is much better than Vader's rage.  

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, call me ishmael said:

I'm not saying that he doesn't have plans but that I am not sure a coldly calculating willingness to treat living beings as fodder is much better than Vader's rage.  

It isn't.  Both Thrawn and Vader are villains.  Still, Vader is like Evil Superman while Thrawn is more like Evil Batman.  Vader succeeds because he has a plethora of magic superpowers at his beck and call.  Thrawn had to learn actual skills and use his brain to get where he was.  Aside from perhaps the final duel with Ahsoka at the end of season Two, Vader has never been anywhere close to real danger during his time on SW: Rebels.  Thrawn has been in danger several times and has faced up to that danger with true bravery.  Vader saw almost all his foes as little more than bugs to be crushed.  Thrawn obviously respects his enemies, even admires some of them (Hera).  In turn that makes him more worthy of respect.

Also, I think the show wants us to respect Thrawn.  Look at the most recent episode.  Ezra has become a pretty powerful Force user by now, but he still became a little panicky at the sight of Thrawn arriving.

Edited November 6, 2017 by johntfs

[call me ishmael]

52 minutes ago, johntfs said:

It isn't.  Both Thrawn and Vader are villains.  Still, Vader is like Evil Superman while Thrawn is more like Evil Batman.  Vader succeeds because he has a plethora of magic superpowers at his beck and call.  Thrawn had to learn actual skills and use his brain to get where he was.  Aside from perhaps the final duel with Ahsoka at the end of season Two, Vader has never been anywhere close to real danger during his time on SW: Rebels.  Thrawn has been in danger several times and has faced up to that danger with true bravery.  Vader saw almost all his foes as little more than bugs to be crushed.  Thrawn obviously respects his enemies, even admires some of them (Hera).  In turn that makes him more worthy of respect.

Also, I think the show wants us to respect Thrawn.  Look at the most recent episode.  Ezra has become a pretty powerful Force user by now, but he still became a little panicky at the sight of Thrawn arriving.

You are definitely right that the show wants us to respect Thrawn in a way it doesn't want us to respect Vader.  That is part of what I find odd.

[johntfs]

Just now, call me ishmael said:

You are definitely right that the show wants us to respect Thrawn in a way it doesn't want us to respect Vader.  That is part of what I find odd.

It isn't, really.  Vader doesn't need to earn our respect/fear.  He already has it.  He's one of the most iconic characters and especially iconic villains ever.  He doesn't even need to be shown.  Just the sound of that "Hoosh-Whoosh" breathing is enough to make our butt-holes pucker just a little, 'cause we know "Oh, shit, Vader's coming!"  Aside from those people who read the EU novels, nobody knows who that new blue-skinned dude is, so Thrawn has to earn our respect.  And the best way to do that is to have the characters we know fear and respect him.  Plus show that yeah, he really is kind of badass.

[ganesh]

5 hours ago, call me ishmael said:

 Vader would kill his men in rage, Thrawn in indifferent calculation.  I'm not sure the latter is any better.

I'd say Thrawn is better in that sense. There really hasn't been much in the way of tactics or strategy with Vader. He's basically been an errand boy for most of the Empire. He was treated like a bitch in ANH for the most part. He only really rose to any level of power because everyone who was on the death star got blown up. At the end of ANH his ship got blasted out into space. Vader couldn't even finish off Ahsoka. He never was able to beat Kenobi, and he's just there because he got the drop on everyone else and killed them first. If you look at the larger context, Vader isn't really a true force in terms of the Empire until ESB. That's a really long time from RoTS to then. Even in RoTJ, I would argue he was in a position of weakness. 

In terms of executing the civil war, I'd say Thrawn is better. 

 

2 hours ago, johntfs said:

Both Thrawn and Vader are villains. 

Is Thrawn a villain though? He's working for the Empire, and we're conditioned to see the Empire as the bad guys because we know in hindsight that that it's run by Sith. Thrawn doesn't know that. We don't know why he rose to the position he is in. Maybe he thinks he's preserving the legit government in the galaxy. Maybe he thought it was his duty to join up. 

[johntfs]

21 hours ago, ganesh said:

Is Thrawn a villain though? He's working for the Empire, and we're conditioned to see the Empire as the bad guys because we know in hindsight that that it's run by Sith. Thrawn doesn't know that. We don't know why he rose to the position he is in. Maybe he thinks he's preserving the legit government in the galaxy. Maybe he thought it was his duty to join up. 

The Empire has shown itself over time to be not just evil, but cartoonishly evil.  Thrawn has shown himself over time to be one of the most intelligent and perceptive beings in the galaxy.  So, he knows the Empire is evil.  He knows the Emperor is evil.  Now, maybe he believes that they are a necessary evil, or somehow a lesser evil (which begs the question, compared to what?) but he has to know that they're evil.  He continues to support the Empire and prosecute its interests.  So yeah, that makes Thrawn a villain.  A villain with admirable qualities perhaps, but a villain nonetheless.

Meanwhile, Force-wolves.  Cool.  Also, could anyone else tell whether Thrawn was annoyed or pleased that Hera got away?  I figure a little of both.  Also, holy shit, are the Nohgri and Rukh now officially canon?

[ganesh]

My point was how much does Thrawn know about Palpatine?