Chit Chat Sunday at 11:45 PM Share Sunday at 11:45 PM I liked watching Isaac think that he was management and that he was actually helping make decisions! 1 hour ago, Katy M said: I did kind of feel bad that everyone kept brushing her off with "not now, Flower." I think if Sam hadn't been so busy, she might've taken the time to ask Flower for some details, but she probably figured it was just one of Flower's 'stoned out of her mind' stories and was meaningless. I liked the callback to the carrots for dinner. It seems those were a precious commodity to the cult! 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/151777-s04e12-it%E2%80%99s-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it-and-what-were-we-talking-about/page/2/#findComment-8582501
shapeshifter Monday at 12:03 AM Share Monday at 12:03 AM 1 hour ago, Katy M said: maybe Hetty's can be that she can take the form of animals. or water. Ooo. Interesting! 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/151777-s04e12-it%E2%80%99s-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it-and-what-were-we-talking-about/page/2/#findComment-8582512
shapeshifter Monday at 12:12 AM Share Monday at 12:12 AM 22 minutes ago, Chit Chat said: I liked watching Isaac think that he was management and that he was actually helping make decisions! Yes, Isaac sees himself as important, but he also accepted blame for getting in the way of a living and causing the apparently worse-than-my-ex's-farts odor. Isaac didn't blame the living person, as some would have. I know it's been mentioned several times here how Isaac has grown as a person to not be so self-centered, but maybe he's always had a generous spirit, and just tried to act tough and important, perhaps as a cover for his less masculine attributes? 2 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/151777-s04e12-it%E2%80%99s-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it-and-what-were-we-talking-about/page/2/#findComment-8582516
Snow Apple Monday at 12:57 AM Share Monday at 12:57 AM Hetty embracing her Irish roots in so funny. I don't remember the exact quote but something like "haven't we suffered enough?" 3 1 7 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/151777-s04e12-it%E2%80%99s-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it-and-what-were-we-talking-about/page/2/#findComment-8582544
Annber03 Monday at 01:09 AM Share Monday at 01:09 AM 52 minutes ago, shapeshifter said: I know it's been mentioned several times here how Isaac has grown as a person to not be so self-centered, but maybe he's always had a generous spirit, and just tried to act tough and important, perhaps as a cover for his less masculine attributes? Oh, absolutely. His whole pompous, egotistical, self-important persona has always been a front for him. Partly, obviously, because of his struggles with his sexuality, but also because of his struggle to fit in and be accepted for who he is as a person in general. And the more insecure he is in any given situation, for whatever reason, and the more he struggles to know how to properly resolve or deal with a difficult problem he's not ready to acknoweldge or doesn't know how to address, the more intense that pompous side becomes as a result. It's like one side of him fuels the other. I liked him literally standing off in the corner at various points this episode during the opening of Jay's restaurant. Keeping the promise he'd made to Jay last episode :D. 3 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/151777-s04e12-it%E2%80%99s-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it-and-what-were-we-talking-about/page/2/#findComment-8582595
kathyk2 Monday at 02:42 AM Share Monday at 02:42 AM 1 hour ago, Annber03 said: Oh, absolutely. His whole pompous, egotistical, self-important persona has always been a front for him. Partly, obviously, because of his struggles with his sexuality, but also because of his struggle to fit in and be accepted for who he is as a person in general. And the more insecure he is in any given situation, for whatever reason, and the more he struggles to know how to properly resolve or deal with a difficult problem he's not ready to acknoweldge or doesn't know how to address, the more intense that pompous side becomes as a result. It's like one side of him fuels the other. I liked him literally standing off in the corner at various points this episode during the opening of Jay's restaurant. Keeping the promise he'd made to Jay last episode :D. I strongly disagree. I think Isaac still has a huge ego He let Patience convince the ghosts about Sam being a witch. He misled Sam and Jay regarding his diary which made them look foolish. He has yet to be selfless. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/151777-s04e12-it%E2%80%99s-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it-and-what-were-we-talking-about/page/2/#findComment-8583048
Annber03 Monday at 02:57 AM Share Monday at 02:57 AM He also offered to move out of the mansion because he felt bad upon hearing Nigel talk about moving back to the shed. And gave up the dino bed to Nigel as well, and apologized for all he'd done regarding their failed wedding. And he did his part to try and stay out of the way during the opening night of Jay's restaurant. It's small steps, sure, but still sefless gestures all the same. And again, all those incidents you listed are prime examples of what I mean when I talk about how he can go overboard with the more pompous, egotistical, selfish side. Though even with the diary, that wasn't even intentional on his part, he genuinely thought he had written more in there than he actually did. That was more a simple mistake on his part than anything. Sam and Jay were the ones who decided to go forward with faking the diary, that wasn't even his idea. He went along with it, sure, to try and help them out, but it wasn't his suggestion. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/151777-s04e12-it%E2%80%99s-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it-and-what-were-we-talking-about/page/2/#findComment-8583117
kathyk2 Monday at 03:03 AM Share Monday at 03:03 AM 3 minutes ago, Annber03 said: He also offered to move out of the mansion because he felt bad upon hearing Nigel talk about moving back to the shed. And gave up the dino bed to Nigel as well, and apologized for all he'd done regarding their failed wedding. And he did his part to try and stay out of the way during the opening night of Jay's restaurant. It's small steps, sure, but still sefless gestures all the same. And again, all those incidents you listed are prime examples of what I mean when I talk about how he can go overboard with the more pompous, egotistical, selfish side. Though even with the diary, that wasn't even intentional on his part, he genuinely thought he had written more in there than he actually did. That was more a simple mistake on his part than anything. Sam and Jay were the ones who decided to go forward with faking the diary, that wasn't even his idea. He went along with it, sure, to try and help them out, but it wasn't his suggestion. Sam and Jay had no choice her publisher needed a source. He never apologized for misleading them. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/151777-s04e12-it%E2%80%99s-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it-and-what-were-we-talking-about/page/2/#findComment-8583144
Annber03 Monday at 03:08 AM Share Monday at 03:08 AM True. But also, using a ghost as a source was always going to cause a problem eventually anyway, no matter how honest Isaac was about everything. That issue was bound to come to a head at some point for Sam no matter what. 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/151777-s04e12-it%E2%80%99s-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it-and-what-were-we-talking-about/page/2/#findComment-8583165
shapeshifter Monday at 12:04 PM Share Monday at 12:04 PM 8 hours ago, kathyk2 said: Sam and Jay had no choice her publisher needed a source. He never apologized for misleading them. This discussion should probably continue on another thread, but while we're here, my memory isn't so great anymore, so I'm just trying to recall: Didn't Isaac genuinely believe he had written down all of the stories in the diary? I suppose he could still apologize for not remembering what he had written hundreds of years ago, but did he think his stories were false? And what I'm really fuzziest about: Were any of Isaac's stories proven false? Or is the "misleading" on Isaac's part just that the diaries didn't corroborate his often repeated oral narratives and were more like (IIRC) grocery shopping lists? 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/151777-s04e12-it%E2%80%99s-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it-and-what-were-we-talking-about/page/2/#findComment-8583392
Orcinus orca Monday at 01:06 PM Share Monday at 01:06 PM 1 hour ago, shapeshifter said: Didn't Isaac genuinely believe he had written down all of the stories in the diary? It was my impression that he did. 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/151777-s04e12-it%E2%80%99s-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it-and-what-were-we-talking-about/page/2/#findComment-8583404
Annber03 Monday at 01:19 PM Share Monday at 01:19 PM Exactly. He didn't intentionally mislead them, he genuinely thought his diary had more in it than it actually did. 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/151777-s04e12-it%E2%80%99s-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it-and-what-were-we-talking-about/page/2/#findComment-8583409
Orcinus orca Monday at 01:32 PM Share Monday at 01:32 PM 12 minutes ago, Annber03 said: Exactly. He didn't intentionally mislead them, he genuinely thought his diary had more in it than it actually did. I think most of us believe the same thing! 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/151777-s04e12-it%E2%80%99s-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it-and-what-were-we-talking-about/page/2/#findComment-8583412
kathyk2 Tuesday at 02:23 AM Share Tuesday at 02:23 AM 14 hours ago, shapeshifter said: This discussion should probably continue on another thread, but while we're here, my memory isn't so great anymore, so I'm just trying to recall: Didn't Isaac genuinely believe he had written down all of the stories in the diary? I suppose he could still apologize for not remembering what he had written hundreds of years ago, but did he think his stories were false? And what I'm really fuzziest about: Were any of Isaac's stories proven false? Or is the "misleading" on Isaac's part just that the diaries didn't corroborate his often repeated oral narratives and were more like (IIRC) grocery shopping lists? Isaac wasted Sam's time by making his life seem more important that it really was. He never apologized to her for all the time and money she spent on the canceled wedding. Flower tried to fix the damage she caused. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/151777-s04e12-it%E2%80%99s-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it-and-what-were-we-talking-about/page/2/#findComment-8584152
PaulE Tuesday at 04:54 AM Share Tuesday at 04:54 AM I tend to feel that Isaac's self-centeredness and lack of consideration for others were always genuine character traits, though possibly they were exacerbated by his sexuality struggles and his unimportance during his lifetime, plus his inability to accept the fact that he'd probably never achieve anything exceptional because he simply didn't have any exceptional abilities. However, I also think he's slowly beginning to realize these flaws and is making an honest effort to change, and for me the real turning point was his jilting of Nigel. For the first time, he clearly saw (eventually) how deeply he wounded the man who had genuinely loved him, and the scuffle over the dinosaur bed made him realize how generous in spirit Nigel was, especially in comparison to him. I think he was just devastated when Nigel told him he'd made a point of learning about dinosaurs so that he could share Isaac's interests and that it was going to be a wedding present. That would have made me feel like absolute human garbage if I'd been Isaac, and I think he felt genuine regret and remorse. But that kind of character change takes a long time, and probably he'll fall off the wagon every now and then, so I don't think we've seen the last of his narcissism. Still, his efforts seem sincere to me--I think he really wants to be a better person. 8 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/151777-s04e12-it%E2%80%99s-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it-and-what-were-we-talking-about/page/2/#findComment-8584256
Annber03 Tuesday at 05:22 AM Share Tuesday at 05:22 AM Brandon Scott Jones said something similar a few months back, that this whole "be a better person" thing is going to be a bit of a journey for Isaac, and that because it's Isaac, it's just going to take a little longer than it might take someone else to take that journey :p. But yeah. He is trying. And honestly, that could extend to all the characters - they've all made some great strides as people over these four seasons and yet they also take two giant steps back in their progress at the same time much of the time. To tie it back around to this episode, Flower goes through some of that, too - she'll have moments where she's genuinely perceptive and thoughtful and helpful, and then she'll have moments where she's talking to blades of grass or going off into a trance or forgetting who Jay is :p. After al, if it's true that improving as people is what might one day eventually help them get sucked off (at least, that's the prevaling theory among many in the fandom, I tend to feel it's not that simple) then that improvement can't happen TOO quickly or too neatly, otherwise this show would've ended back in, like, season one :p. 25 minutes ago, PaulE said: I tend to feel that Isaac's self-centeredness and lack of consideration for others were always genuine character traits, I also like to think it was a nod to/commentary on how many political figures tend to be in general :p. Sure, Isaac wasn't as prominent a political figure as his contemporaries, but still, given his interest in and interaction with some of those people, well... Either he developed those tratis from spending time with other political figures or he had those traits already and they were just further exacerbated by his time in the political realm. 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/151777-s04e12-it%E2%80%99s-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it-and-what-were-we-talking-about/page/2/#findComment-8584267
PaulE Tuesday at 09:32 PM Share Tuesday at 09:32 PM 15 hours ago, Annber03 said: Brandon Scott Jones said something similar a few months back, that this whole "be a better person" thing is going to be a bit of a journey for Isaac, and that because it's Isaac, it's just going to take a little longer than it might take someone else to take that journey :p. I've read several interviews with Brandon discussing Isaac, and I've always found it interesting that he can be pretty hard on Isaac's character flaws--harsher than many of us. I always think that, because actors need to be able to inhabit and understand their characters, they're more apt to become sympathetic to them and even make excuses sometimes for bad behavior. For instance, Rob James-Collier always defended the behavior of the often-villainous footman Thomas in "Downton Abbey" by saying he was simply misunderstood (there was a lot more to it than that), and Brian Cox occasionally tried to soften the awful Logan Roy in "Succession" (not too convincingly, in my opinion). But Brandon seems to have taken the opposite path and hasn't cut Isaac much slack regarding his selfishness and self-absorption. So paradoxically, his portrayal of Isaac's self-realization might actually seem more realistic because he's not rationalizing Isaac's past behavior. 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/151777-s04e12-it%E2%80%99s-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it-and-what-were-we-talking-about/page/2/#findComment-8584661
Bastet Tuesday at 09:34 PM Share Tuesday at 09:34 PM Just now, PaulE said: For instance, Rob James-Collier always defended the behavior of the often-villainous footman Thomas in "Downton Abbey" by saying he was simply misunderstood (there was a lot more to it than that), and Brian Cox occasionally tried to soften the awful Logan Roy in "Succession" (not too convincingly, in my opinion). But Brandon seems to have taken the opposite path and hasn't cut Isaac much slack regarding his selfishness and self-absorption. What Brandon is doing is more common in comedy than drama, so the differences you're noting make sense. 4 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/151777-s04e12-it%E2%80%99s-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it-and-what-were-we-talking-about/page/2/#findComment-8584664
txhorns79 Wednesday at 03:18 AM Share Wednesday at 03:18 AM On 2/14/2025 at 9:29 PM, Orcinus orca said: Sass is my favorite, I wish we knew more about him. He definitely has the best hair. 5 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/151777-s04e12-it%E2%80%99s-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it-and-what-were-we-talking-about/page/2/#findComment-8584953
tennisgurl Wednesday at 09:52 PM Share Wednesday at 09:52 PM That was a lot of fun, I am really glad that everything came together for Jay's restaurant and that everyone pitched in, both the ghosts and the livings, to keep the big night from being ruined by ghost hijinks. His speech at the end was sweet, he was obviously including the ghosts when he talked about family, he really does care about them even if he cant see them unless it involves a possession. Oh snap, that shade thrown at The Bear, shots being fired! I like The Bear but it is absolutely not a comedy and its not really fair for it to keep winning comedy awards for what is obviously a drama. I love that they got Bela in on gaslighting Mark into thinking he's sexist, the poor guy. I also like that some of the basement ghosts got some time to shine, glad to know that they have their own weird ghost power. I know that Flower isn't everyone's cup of tea, but I find her to be a lot of fun. She might have messed up here but she meant well and has clearly not unpacked a lot of the lies she got fed in the cult, which is fair considering she has spent her afterlife high as balls. "We are still following laws this fool made." 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/151777-s04e12-it%E2%80%99s-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it-and-what-were-we-talking-about/page/2/#findComment-8585541
Orbert 16 hours ago Share 16 hours ago It was nice that everything worked out, but where were Jay's parents? Bela is now the restaurant manager and the place is even named after Dad, but the Grand Opening doesn't even mention them? 2 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/151777-s04e12-it%E2%80%99s-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it-and-what-were-we-talking-about/page/2/#findComment-8586483
iMonrey 15 hours ago Share 15 hours ago 34 minutes ago, Orbert said: It was nice that everything worked out, but where were Jay's parents? Bela is now the restaurant manager and the place is even named after Dad, but the Grand Opening doesn't even mention them? Not sure where they live but considering this was the first time we've seen them maybe it's too far away. Then again, they drove to Woodstone on their recent visit so it can't be too far. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/151777-s04e12-it%E2%80%99s-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it-and-what-were-we-talking-about/page/2/#findComment-8586515
Snow Apple 15 hours ago Share 15 hours ago (edited) 26 minutes ago, iMonrey said: Not sure where they live but considering this was the first time we've seen them maybe it's too far away. Then again, they drove to Woodstone on their recent visit so it can't be too far. Did they stay at Woodstone? I don't remember. My coworker drove 10 hours to visit her brother over last week's three day US holiday weekend. My family often drive 8-10 hours to Canada to stay an entire week. So a 10 hour drive is doable but not for a short visit just to see the grand opening without staying a few days. Edited 15 hours ago by Snow Apple 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/151777-s04e12-it%E2%80%99s-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it-and-what-were-we-talking-about/page/2/#findComment-8586543
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