S02.E01: Ovaltine

[arc]

On 1/19/2025 at 3:10 PM, aghst said:

People like amenities at work, like Aeron chairs and a couple of 30-inch color flat screens for their work station, fancy coffee and snacks provided gratis, not doled out by a boss with the fake smile, only as rewards for Pavlovian performance.

The innies don't really know what nice stuff is! They've never even had any coffee besides what Lumon provides.

(You've just got to not think too hard about this. The idea that severance erases all personal history of the outie's life from the innie's memory but not their core competencies and basic knowledge of less personal stuff like language, math, etc, feels like there must be a ton of stuff in a gray area that isn't 100% personal but isn't 100% "impersonal" knowledge either.)

On 1/20/2025 at 6:12 PM, aghst said:

Worth it or could they have used that time for other things? Or maybe finish this season and have it become available a couple of months sooner?

Stiller and Scott broke it down: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOeFQ2ghR3U

It's not that it took 5 months of time. It's that over the course of shooting s2, the sets were moved around (walls removed from the hallways and such). The opening sequence was planned out from the start and then they scheduled shots to take place as the set was reconfigured. So the ten shots were gradually accomplished during the (five month?) shooting of s2. But sure, the rehearsal time and work with the different camera rigs probably did eat some some extra time.

But yes, worth it IMO. It's a hell of a sequence and I found it compelling.

Last thing: that opening run ends with a guy in the background looking at Mark S while Mark contemplates the now-missing Wellness room. I've seen various speculation elsewhere about who that might be, but in the credits he's listed as "Man in Hallway" and was played by Adam Jepsen. Presumably he'll be in focus and closer to the camera in some future episode.

 

[Kirbyrun]

6 hours ago, arc said:

(You've just got to not think too hard about this. The idea that severance erases all personal history of the outie's life from the innie's memory but not their core competencies and basic knowledge of less personal stuff like language, math, etc, feels like there must be a ton of stuff in a gray area that isn't 100% personal but isn't 100% "impersonal" knowledge either.)

An earlier version of the pilot (someone linked to it here in the Season 1 thread) discusses this a little bit. Basically, the innies are deliberately left with "general world knowledge" and programmed to understand how to use the Lumon computers. Which raises even MORE questions, honestly!

But yes -- you just have to accept the premise of the show and run with it.

[AstridM]

7 hours ago, arc said:

You've just got to not think too hard about this. The idea that severance erases all personal history of the outie's life from the innie's memory but not their core competencies and basic knowledge of less personal stuff like language, math, etc, feels like there must be a ton of stuff in a gray area that isn't 100% personal but isn't 100% "impersonal" knowledge either.

Yeah, innie Irving miraculously knew how to drive! At night, even. 

Edited Wednesday at 04:14 PM by AstridM

[iMonrey]

19 hours ago, Kirbyrun said:

An interesting conundrum — what if Innie Dylan says, “I quit,” but Outie Dylan doesn’t respect that decision and goes back to work anyway? Whose decision would Lumon respect? Technically the employment contract is with the Outie, who gets paid, right?

This is where I struggle with the premise, because I can't wrap my head around the Innie/Outie being one person. If you are severed, do you wake up as an Innie? Or do you just go on with your life as an Outie with big blank spots eight hours a day? I can't quite grasp the concept of "self" in this situation. It seems like you'd become one or the other.

[Kirbyrun]

1 hour ago, AstridM said:

Yeah, innie Irving miraculously knew how to drive! At night, even. 

What blew my mind about that scene was that he wasn't bowled over at being outside! But I am hand-waving it away with "He's a man in love on a mission!"

[Ilovepie]

1 hour ago, AstridM said:

Yeah, innie Irving miraculously knew how to drive! At night, even. 

I felt like he didn't fully know - he was figuring it out on the fly. 

[ofmd]

On 1/19/2025 at 6:24 PM, iMonrey said:

Silo?

 

On 1/19/2025 at 11:14 PM, peachmangosteen said:

 

My first thought was Yellowjackets but I don't watch Silo.

Yes, Silo!

Never watched Yellowjackets for some reason.

[Dev F]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

This is where I struggle with the premise, because I can't wrap my head around the Innie/Outie being one person. If you are severed, do you wake up as an Innie? Or do you just go on with your life as an Outie with big blank spots eight hours a day? I can't quite grasp the concept of "self" in this situation. It seems like you'd become one or the other.

The premise doesn't posit the existence of a separate organ of consciousness, just separate sets of memories that presumably inform the same fundamental consciousness. In a basic Cartesian sense it's the same "self," in the same way that a person with amnesia doesn't become a different person because they don't remember their former life. The same person/mind/soul/whatever that was remembering is now not-remembering.

[ofmd]

Well, the innies have been building their own new memories, limited as they may be. So in a sense, they are developing into slightly different persons.

Didn't Mark say something along the lines of, "We're the same persons... -ish"?

PS: I wanted to respond to a post I can't find right now. It said something like, "What are they, 5 years old?!" Well, yes! Or rather, I think some are younger. Hasn't Mark been severed for 2 years? And Helly is practically a newborn. Not in terms of cognitive/ physical abilities, but in terms of experiences. They haven't been disappointed about 500 times like any person their real age, so of course they'll be more gullibe and naive. It's part of what makes them endearing to me.

PPS: Bring back Bert!

Edited Wednesday at 08:25 PM by ofmd

[arc]

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

This is where I struggle with the premise, because I can't wrap my head around the Innie/Outie being one person. If you are severed, do you wake up as an Innie? Or do you just go on with your life as an Outie with big blank spots eight hours a day? I can't quite grasp the concept of "self" in this situation. It seems like you'd become one or the other.

It’s like a much more extreme version of those situations where one does something and then later has no conscious memory of it. It’s somewhat common for people to experience driving home in a fugue state, for example.

from the outie’s POV, they enter a down elevator at the start of their work day and then a perceptual moment later the elevator opens back up on the ground floor and it’s about eight hours later.

[aghst]

Do all the Innies know about reintegration or reversal of severance?

Does Innie Mark know Petey on the outside, that Petey tried to re-integrate and died, maybe because of the reintegration procedure or maybe not?

Because if any of them know that reintegration is a possibility, some may be interested in pursuing it or at least finding out about it.

That interest would reflect that they don't like severance, their work inside.

Also, we don't know how well they're paid,  Maybe money isn't a motivation for them.  For instance, Mark opted to try because he was depressed or not dealing with the loss of Gemma.

But it's interesting that all the rewards Milchick offers are non-monetary.  In every other workplace, people do care about things like bonuses, raises, etc.

The little perks are nice, maybe office parties, maybe  them giving you nice coffee and snacks, maybe the quality of the cafeteria.

But most workers prioritize monetary compensation above all else.  So it's interesting that Milchick only ever gives them non-monetary.  The pineapple bobbing makes for a fun animation but most workers would think that it's some BS substitute for bonuses or raises.

[arc]

1 hour ago, aghst said:

But most workers prioritize monetary compensation above all else.  So it's interesting that Milchick only ever gives them non-monetary.

What good is money to an innie? I think the vending machine might be the only way they could spend money. Offering more money to the outie won't help the innie.

[Kirbyrun]

1 hour ago, aghst said:

But it's interesting that all the rewards Milchick offers are non-monetary.

Because the innies have no use for money. There’s nowhere to spend it. The outies get to spend money, money earned by the innies. But the innies are only motivated by what they can experience while at work. 

[AstridM]

6 hours ago, ofmd said:

So in a sense, they are developing into slightly different persons.

Certainly Helly and Helena are vastly different persons.

[aghst]

1 hour ago, Kirbyrun said:

Because the innies have no use for money. There’s nowhere to spend it. The outies get to spend money, money earned by the innies. But the innies are only motivated by what they can experience while at work. 

That's perfect for Lumon.

But they have to have some incentive to continue with that work, which is drudgery defined, staring at those depressing screens all day.

[grawlix]

Opening Scene Breakdown

 

[iMonrey]

7 hours ago, ofmd said:

Never watched Yellowjackets for some reason.

Don't!

5 hours ago, arc said:

from the outie’s POV, they enter a down elevator at the start of their work day and then a perceptual moment later the elevator opens back up on the ground floor and it’s about eight hours later.

For the Outie it's basically business as usual except that they skip forward in time eight hours every day. I can see the motivation for that for some. For the Innie it's one long, monotonous and weird day that never ends. That sounds awful. You'd think the Outie would want to know what's happening to them before agreeing to that. And I still can't quite grasp being both rather than one or the other. It seems like you would "wake up" after the severance procedure as one or the other. I'd be terrified of waking up and finding myself trapped at work forever.

[arc]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

And I still can't quite grasp being both rather than one or the other. It seems like you would "wake up" after the severance procedure as one or the other.

Per the first season, the outie wakes up from the surgery basically as themselves. The innie's first time is getting knocked out so they can wake up on the conference table. They don't remember getting the surgery. They don't remember a single detail of their outie's personal life. They are a blank slate. Adam Scott says this is why Mark Scout has bad posture but Mark S does not: the innie has not been weighed down by life, or at least not consciously so.

[AheadofStraight]

20 hours ago, Kirbyrun said:

What blew my mind about that scene was that he wasn't bowled over at being outside! But I am hand-waving it away with "He's a man in love on a mission!"

Adam Scott and Ben Stiller (and Jon Stewart!) discuss this in their podcast for episode 9. They did a lot of experimenting when filming with innie Mark seeing the outside for the first time but ultimately decided to just stick to the main story and not go into all of the other stuff to stay focused on the main plot. 

[dwmarch]

20 hours ago, Kirbyrun said:

Because the innies have no use for money.

They still understand the importance of it though, as shown with Dylan asking Irv "you poor up there or what?"

[Mr. R0b0t]

What is happening at the end of the sinister hallway Irv paints and Ms. Casey resigns herself to go down? If an innie is put there, does every time the outie shows up for work, do they just warp into the innie and stand in darkness (thus living an entire existence of this fresh hell?

What is the Ms. Casey on the outside up to?  Did she fake her own death or does she, like Mark, think he is dead?  Could they be experiencing a similar life on the outside?  

Is Cobel truly out of the picture?

Ms. Huang creeps me out.  Can't wait to see where they are going with this character.

Milchick is just such a good antagonist.  He has menace, but is not omnipotent and can be tricked, but also does not appreciate being messed with.

[Starchild]

2 hours ago, Mr. R0b0t said:

What is happening at the end of the sinister hallway Irv paints and Ms. Casey resigns herself to go down? If an innie is put there, does every time the outie shows up for work, do they just warp into the innie and stand in darkness (thus living an entire existence of this fresh hell?

I suspect she never leaves. No outie for Ms Casey

[Mr. R0b0t]

2 minutes ago, Starchild said:

I suspect she never leaves. No outie for Ms Casey

Do you imagine she sleeps or eats?  is she put into some kind of stasis? I feel like this is the kind of show that will reveal the true answer and it will be deliciously disturbing. 

[Red Fields]

I think Ms. Casey is a prisoner. They must be able to turn her off and on. Didn't she say she'd only been conscious for 117 hours?

[Kirbyrun]

21 minutes ago, Red Fields said:

I think Ms. Casey is a prisoner. They must be able to turn her off and on. Didn't she say she'd only been conscious for 117 hours?

When Cobel was done with Ms. Casey, she said, "Return her to the Testing Floor." Which makes me think Casey is some kind of prototype.

Then again, that's me taking "Testing Floor" at face value. Given what the Break Room ended up being, it's possible that "Testing Floor" is a hellscape crucible where innies must fight for their own survival.

[Red Fields]

True, it must be a euphemistic name for something very ominous.

[arc]

re the question of whether it's Helly or Helena down on the severed floor in s2: this Reddit post (2 min video) is fascinating, hinging entirely on the different tones heard in the elevator (and sometimes away from the elevator).

One little thing: in the extreme close up on Dylan during his "don't go" speech, Zach Cherry twitches his eyebrow a little bit. It's amazing; I don't think I could do that on command for a thousand bucks.