S01.E04: Twice Born

[AnimeMania]

As Tula attempts to understand the acolytes' shared dream, Valya sets her plan in motion to redeem House Harkonnen ahead of the Landsraad.

After nearly all the acolytes have the same nightmare, Tula attempts to understand the origins of their disturbing dreams. Meanwhile, on the eve of the great Landsraad meeting, Valya sets her plan in motion to redeem House Harkonnen, Ynez confronts her father about rumors surrounding Desmond, and Kieran conspires to advance a rebel attack that the Sisterhood must try to thwart.

Premiere Date: December 8, 2024    HBO    9pm    

 

[Haleth]

I have no idea what’s happening in this show. Who is Theo?

[Roseanna]

So Hart or rather his power to kill with mental methods has some kind of connection with sand snakes of Arrakis? 

[paulvdb]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

I have no idea what’s happening in this show. Who is Theo?

Theo is short for Theodosia, the sister who was travelling with Valya and who can apparantly shapeshift as we found out in this episode.

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

So Hart or rather his power to kill with mental methods has some kind of connection with sand snakes of Arrakis? 

Yeah, they told us that from the first, with the sandworm visuals. I wonder why anyone, looking at you, Emperor, would trust him. It seems like a classic leopard/face scenario. 
 

i agree with others who have said the actor playing Desmond Hart is not compelling. They may even think he is blinding the emperor with his Rasputin like charisma, but I am not seeing it. 

He could be an Atreides , Vorian is the best bet, or maybe one of his followers  but Kieran doesn’t recognise him  well, I guess we will find out  

 

Edited December 9 by Affogato

[magdalene]

Desmond remains the most compelling character for me. I too suspect he is really Vorian Atreides. He seemed to want to give Valya access to his blood sample, lol.

Am I supposed to have any affection for Valya and Tula? They are both utter villains to me at this point.  I think they are going to find out that their big bogey man Vorian didn't actually kill Griffin.

My problem is I have zero interest in Kieren, or the princess and that whole bunch.

[magdalene]

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

So Hart or rather his power to kill with mental methods has some kind of connection with sand snakes of Arrakis? 

That's not a sand snake. That's Shai-Hulud a sand worm, basically the god of this universe.

[Affogato]

3 hours ago, magdalene said:

That's not a sand snake. That's Shai-Hulud a sand worm, basically the god of this universe.

I think the correct slant is that Shai-hulud is the sandworm deified. There are many coyotes and only one Coyote. 
 

i love that gulls stomp on sand to attract polychaetes. 

Edited December 9 by Affogato

[Affogato]

I don’t understand what is going on with the sisterhood. 

[Tachi Rocinante]

Lots of tense moments in this episode, good exposition too.  So who is Theo going to morph into? Or is she just changing back?

I'm going to continue to say it until he proves otherwise - Travis Fimmel continues to be a drag on every scene he's in. Even his spotlight monologue was a snooze.

[Roseanna]

14 hours ago, magdalene said:

Am I supposed to have any affection for Valya and Tula? They are both utter villains to me at this point. 

How are they different from Hart? 

[Haleth]

I already had a problem seeing how Hart’s ability fit into this universe and now a shape shifter?  They seem too magical. I admit I’ve only read the original 3 books (decades ago) so I don’t recall anyone that could do such things. 

[Dac22]

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

How are they different from Hart? 

Yeah, the sisters, Desmond, the Bene Gesserit in general, and the emperor & his wife are all terrible people. Or, at the very least, willing to do bad things for power.

The closest we have to a 'good guy' so far is probably Ynez who seemingly risked a lot to call out her father in front of everyone. 

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

I admit I’ve only read the original 3 books (decades ago) so I don’t recall anyone that could do such things. 

Spoiler

Theo is a Face Dancer which were introduced in the second book, I believe.

I put it under a spoiler to be safe, but I don't think it really spoils anything and they actively talked about it on the After Show.

[eelpout]

On 12/9/2024 at 6:40 PM, Tachi Rocinante said:

I'm going to continue to say it until he proves otherwise - Travis Fimmel continues to be a drag on every scene he's in. Even his spotlight monologue was a snooze.

Didn't love him in Raised by Wolves either. 

Edited Friday at 06:44 AM by eelpout

[Tachi Rocinante]

6 hours ago, eelpout said:

Didn't love him in Raised by Wolves either. 

Nope.  The two actors playing androids showed more range.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 12/10/2024 at 2:14 AM, Roseanna said:

How are they different from Hart? 

They may not be.

But at the very least, Valya and Tula have demonstrably been shown to be cool with coldblooded killing and galactic manipulation if it gets them what they want. They may have a noble end goal. They may just want personal/Sisterhood power. But they have shown that they truly believe their ends justify any means.

Hart (so far) has only been shown to punish the guilty, largely works within the system with some amount of due process, and although his rigid "I only serve the Imperium" may be a ruse, or may even be self-deception. And it also may be that Hart was a more traditionally moral person but has decided that to fight monsters, one has to become a monster.

People's mileage will vary as to whether a series with all villains and no traditional heroes to root for is worth watching. For my money, as long as it's done well, it is. And I feel like Dune: Prophecy is done pretty well.

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Hart (so far) has only been shown to punish the guilty

How about the little boy Hart murdered?

And what right Hart has to be both jury, judge and executiner?

[Chicago Redshirt]

54 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

How about the little boy Hart murdered?

And what right Hart has to be both jury, judge and executiner?

From our vantage point, the boy is just a kid and the toy was relatively harmless. But from the vantage point of Dune society, at least as I understand it, there is no question of the boy's guilt.

As Hart said, it was less a murder and more an execution. It is (apparently) a death penalty crime to have/harbor any form of AI. given that AI nearly wiped out humanity. The boy clearly had an AI, even if it is a relatively benign one. 

From my perspective, no 9 year old should even be eligible for conviction of a crime. From my perspective, the death penalty should be eliminated. From my perspective, the better course would have been to do an investigation. The boy didn't create the AI himself. So who gave it to him, how long had he had it, why did they supply it to him, did they supply it to others? There are a lot of questions to be answered along those lines.

But Dune society isn't particularly just from what we've seen, nor does it operate on real-world morality outside of Machiavellian motives/realpolitik dialed to 11.

You're right that Hart does not have any particular claim to be judge, jury or executioner. But at the same time, the entire society was going to sweep the boy's public ownership of AI under the rug because his family is rich and powerful (and maybe because of his age).

And  I should add it's possible that some of the people that Hart has killed on or off-screen has been factually innocent. But he seems to have been working hard to investigate people and we don't have demonstrable proof of complete innocents having died or suffered at his hands like we do the Harkonnens.

I should add that there is also the dimension that Hart apparently either realizes/suspects on some level that the engagement is part of the Sisterhood's plans and/or picked up on how the boy/engagement was being used by the boy's family to the detriment of the Emperor/the Imperium. Killing one boy to prevent the longterm threat the boy represents is another factor. The boy is not guilty himself in his respect, admittedly, and is just a pawn. But it is a moral justification that reasonable people can disagree about.

Edited 2 hours ago by Chicago Redshirt

[AnimeMania]

Just a FYI, I watched the 6th episode on MAX instead of HBO and noticed that there was an "Inside the Episode" discussion at the end of each of the episodes. I am not sure if this was at the end of episodes on HBO and I just stopped the episode before I reached it or it wasn't included. Anyway, try to see the additional material, it explains a lot of what the episode was about.