S01.E07: White Nights

[secnarf]

Quote

It's 1979 and Tim, now a social worker in San Francisco, travels to Fire Island where he suspects Hawk is drinking himself to death after a family tragedy. Hawk takes Tim on a tour of "gay paradise," indulging in dancing, drugs and unbridled sex until things take a dark turn. In San Francisco, Marcus and Frankie are drawn into the explosion of gay rage prompted by the verdict in Dan White's murder trial. Hawk's adult daughter, Kimberly, challenges Lucy to share the truth about her marriage.

 

[Snazzy Daisy]

Fellow Travelers Episode 7 Promo | SHOWTIME

[AngieBee1]

It's a good thing that Hawk is a great lay because that is the only reason to put up with his self-sabotage.

[Snazzy Daisy]

50s Tim - Idealistic, madly in love.

60s Tim - Stronger, realistic.

70s Tim - Liberated, true to himself.

50s to 70s Hawk - Arrested development.

Toxic, healthy Hawk vs kind, terminally ill Tim.

Tim doesn’t deserve this. Why can’t this fate be reversed? Life is unfair! 😭😭😭   
 

[Bill1978]

I really like how this episode basically tied everything we discovered early on in the 1980s scenes into the past. The major family incident, why Tim cut off Hawk, how Tim's love turned into a strong dislike, why Lucy was warmer to Tim (in a way) in their phone conversation. It also helped make last episode not as random as it felt last week.

I've been wondering what the exact moment was going to be where Tim said 'Enough is enough!' as indicated in the first episode. And I must say, I am firmly in Tim's camp. I too fell for Hawk's confession by the pool and then to see him the next morning back at square one I would have responded exactly the way Tim did. Well maybe not exactly, I feel there would have been a lot more yelling. As much pain as it caused Tim, at least his verbal attack at Hawk and saying he was done, was the kick up the butt Hawk needed to snap out of his downward spiral.

I know this is going to be left field, but I'm getting a vibe that this show may pull an Atonement like ending. There is something about the 1980s scenes that feel a little too perfect for Hawk. I might need to go back and watch the first couple of episodes because I feel there is moment in the cafe where Hawk's visit may have gone one of two ways, and we are seeing the idealistic path that has only occurred in Hawk's mind. I of course will be wildly off course like I usually am with TV shows, so don't mind my flight of fancy.

This episode also makes me want to rewatch the film Milk.

[marceline]

10 hours ago, Bill1978 said:

This episode also makes me want to rewatch the film Milk.

I've been doing exactly that. It lands differently now. 

So much reminded me of the George Floyd protests. History repeats.

Tim's asking "Are you planning to kill yourself?" just shifted everything in the episode and watching him work through what Hawk was asking. "You want to keep lying even after you're dead!"

Edited December 9, 2023 by marceline

[EtheltoTillie]

I was not expecting Fire Island Hawk. They spent the whole show setting him up as closeted, never enjoying gay culture. I feel it was a narrative cheat. I still liked the episode, but it came out of left field. 

[ofmd]

I would have cheered for Tim, except for the fact that we know from his sister that he never got over Hawk. And while I, too, am firmly in camp Tim, it's also up to him to be open to really love someone new... It's all complicated and layered, and that's why this show is so good.

I think that something else will happen between them. Present (Eighties) Hawk has known about Tim's illness for a long time. I'm assuming Tim notified him when he found out and urged him to get tested. And I wonder if Hawk did or didn't do something else at that time. During the drugged threesome I kept thinking, please don't make it Tim got it from Blonde Boytoy! He didn't even like that guy.

I've binged all the episodes within a couple of days. My only gripe is I wish we'd also get queer shows of this quality that are not so tragic. Which is not this show's fault of course.

I really liked Martin and Frankie's stroyline, and how they wove in the Milk assassination, subsequent travesty, and questions of identity and intersectionality. When they raised their glasses in salute to Harvey's birthday, it almost brought me to tears.

Whatever became of Mary The Token Lesbian?

 

Edited December 9, 2023 by ofmd

[Fake Jan Brady]

Rule number one: never turn down the gift of a beachside Fire Island house.

Rule number two: find a lover who retains his perfect body over twenty years, no matter how much he abuses it.

[Irlandesa]

2 hours ago, ofmd said:

During the drugged threesome I kept thinking, please don't make it Tim got it from Blonde Boytoy! He didn't even like that guy.

I don't think they even had any sexual contact.  He wasn't interested in that guy at all.  He seemed to be standing to the side of Hawk and focusing his attention on him during the threesome. 

2 hours ago, ofmd said:

Whatever became of Mary The Token Lesbian?

I think she was the senator that Hawk called in the first episode.

2 hours ago, ofmd said:

My only gripe is I wish we'd also get queer shows of this quality that are not so tragic. Which is not this show's fault of course.

Personally, I loved Looking, and that wasn't a tragedy. 

[Irlandesa]

6 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

I was not expecting Fire Island Hawk. They spent the whole show setting him up as closeted, never enjoying gay culture. I feel it was a narrative cheat. I still liked the episode, but it came out of left field. 

I apologize for the double post, but I forgot to add my thoughts about this.  I don't agree that we never saw him enjoying gay culture.  In D.C., we saw him hang out with Marcus at gay clubs.  He seemed very comfortable at the place out of town where he took Tim to look for the guy who claimed to have had a relationship with McCarthy.  And he certainly knew the places to go to initiate an illicit anonymous hookup. 

Fire Island is just an extension of those spaces and he felt safe that no one would out them since his circumstances weren't unusual.

I'm wondering if we'll ever get follow up on Lucy's brother. 

[ofmd]

As for Jackson, they seem to leave it a bit vague...

Haven't seen Looking, will check it out!

[EtheltoTillie]

11 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I apologize for the double post, but I forgot to add my thoughts about this.  I don't agree that we never saw him enjoying gay culture.  In D.C., we saw him hang out with Marcus at gay clubs.  He seemed very comfortable at the place out of town where he took Tim to look for the guy who claimed to have had a relationship with McCarthy.  And he certainly knew the places to go to initiate an illicit anonymous hookup. 

Fire Island is just an extension of those spaces and he felt safe that no one would out them since his circumstances weren't unusual.

I'm wondering if we'll ever get follow up on Lucy's brother. 

I totally get what you are saying, and I thought about that too.  However, they never had him doing anything for an extended period of time.  He'd always be going out for a night and then going home.  They'd always be talking about how the never did anything openly or he wouldn't leave his straight life.  You see scenes in earlier episodes about later times that let you think he never did anything like Fire Island.  Then suddenly he's at Fire Island for an extended period and owns a house.  Okay, then!

I feel like the showrunners were saying "see how we sprung that on you." 

[ofmd]

I thought this is all a part of Hawk being far more self-hating than Tim (which is ironic, considering Tim is the one with the catholicism) and also compartmentalizing more. And fear, of course. He has to go somewhere to pick up men. If he didn't, he wouldn't go to gay things, but not because he hates them, it's because he can't visit them without fear of discovery and there is no way for him to integrate them into his 'real' (to him) life.

The place out of town was easier, more safe, and he could just leave 'real' life behind and immerse himself more in that 'gay' compartment.

Fire Island is different, he goes there to give up on himself and do drugs, so he might as well enjoy it and surround himself with gay culture!

Edited December 10, 2023 by ofmd

[ahpny]

On 12/9/2023 at 5:52 AM, Bill1978 said:

I really like how this episode basically tied everything we discovered early on in the 1980s scenes into the past. The major family incident, why Tim cut off Hawk, how Tim's love turned into a strong dislike, why Lucy was warmer to Tim (in a way) in their phone conversation.

I suspected from a Tim-Lucy telephone conversation in a prior episode that they'd more than made peace with each other. This second telephone conversation may further support that. My un-spoiled suspicion is that Lucy will learn that Tim played a fundamantal part in Hawk's return to his family and sobering up. While she can't erase Tim from Hawk's life, she can still acknowledge that he helped her and her family the best way he could.

Regarding Fire Island, they got most of that right (other than physically). I don't know where this was filmed but that didn't look like the Altantic Ocean or the pine forested east-coast barrier Island that is Fire Island. It's not surprising that Hawk would act freer there. Part of the reason why Fire Island was then, and remains now, a bubble where the usual "rules" just don't apply, is it's physical isolation from "the mainland." This was expressly discussed in the episode as well. Because no road goes there, (it's only reachable by ferry and air) it's nearly impossible to get there by accident. It's the perfect place for Hawk to let his guard down far more than he does anywhere else.

Edited December 11, 2023 by ahpny

[Bill1978]

On 12/12/2023 at 2:19 AM, ahpny said:

Regarding Fire Island, they got most of that right (other than physically).

That shot of Tim arriving at the house on Fire Island and knocking on the door was a great example of terrible greenscreen. I imagine throughout the series there has been a series of greenscreen moments, but that one was very very noticeable. Made even odder when they went to the effort to take Matt and Jonathan to a beach to frolic in, surely somewhere during that shoot they could have staged Jonathan standing somewhere with his back to the ocean to get a similar shot. Or maybe I just don't understand television production.

[buckboard]

Talking about the Fire Island scenes being mostly accurate, I think the writers get the jist of the history, although those who actually lived though the times or studied them can find errors or omissions.  For example, the big candlelight march showing Frankie, Jerome and Tim together was the night Mayor Moscone and Supervisor Milk were assassinated, not a few days after the White Night Riot.  This was an opportunity to show those fellows together, so it wasn't a big deal in the long run, but accurate it wasn't. 

And I'm not so sure Marcus would have been worried about losing his job at SF State in 1978, when the City had anti-descrimination laws by then and there were a number of out gay and lesbian faculty.  But that was kind of residual fear from his previous experiences.

[lianau]

On 12/9/2023 at 6:41 AM, Snazzy Daisy said:

50s Tim - Idealistic, madly in love.

60s Tim - Stronger, realistic.

70s Tim - Liberated, true to himself.

50s to 70s Hawk - Arrested development.

Toxic, healthy Hawk vs kind, terminally ill Tim.

Tim doesn’t deserve this. Why can’t this fate be reversed? Life is unfair! 😭😭😭   
 

I wouldn't call it arrested development , more like boxed in development. He got married and that was it for him.

[Scarlett45]

On 12/12/2023 at 6:57 PM, buckboard said:

And I'm not so sure Marcus would have been worried about losing his job at SF State in 1978, when the City had anti-descrimination laws by then and there were a number of out gay and lesbian faculty.  But that was kind of residual fear from his previous experiences.

I do love how Frankie and Marcus have been written, because I understand where both were coming from, and why they butted heads. As much as I wanted Frankie to get over Marcus, I know why Frankie kept taking him back, whenever their relationship “fit” in his life (like how after his father died).
 

 Marcus may not have lost his job for being gay in 1979, but he certainly may have for being gay and black from someone who wanted an excuse to get rid of him (or replace him with a white gay person or a straight black person). The rules “on paper” are often very different than reality, and likely Marcus was the primary breadwinner given Frankie was a social worker. 

 

I also understood why Marcus didn’t want Frankie at the protest, and I understand why Frankie felt he had to be there. 
 

Unlike fucking selfish ass Hawk, I do think Marcus was thinking of Frankie’s well being because he loves him. I think Hawk loves his children, and I think he loves Lucy, but not as much as he loves himself. His entire speech about Kimberly’s baby shower was about her being embarrassed by him. Not HIS behavior- it was because she didnt idolize him any more. I no doubt Kim loves her father and would’ve forgiven him almost anything, she had a baby coming and he just abandoned her after she lost her brother. Lucy was right, Lucy was still trying to be a Mom to her even in her grief- as parents do.