S04.E01: Lazarus Rising

[gonzosgirrl]

14 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Oh my gods. This deleted scene.  I like what aired better. But this was interesting.

Oh, Dean. At least he didn't say 'that's what she said.' LOL!

[FlickChick]

On 9/10/2017 at 9:53 PM, catrox14 said:

Oh my gods. This deleted scene.  I like what aired better. But this was interesting.

It was interesting, but I agree with you that I preferred the scene in the episode - a joke just doesn't seem to fit in the dialog. But what it reminded me more than anything, is how much I enjoy (the proper amount/volume level) music in any scene. It makes it come alive for me. That's probably why I enjoy TV and movies more than books. I love the visuals and sounds created while telling a story.

[gonzosgirrl]

On 9/13/2017 at 6:14 PM, FlickChick said:

It was interesting, but I agree with you that I preferred the scene in the episode - a joke just doesn't seem to fit in the dialog. But what it reminded me more than anything, is how much I enjoy (the proper amount/volume level) music in any scene. It makes it come alive for me. That's probably why I enjoy TV and movies more than books. I love the visuals and sounds created while telling a story.

I had to watch twice to realize what was cut from the aired version. Dean Winchester's version of 'that's what she said'. LOL! You're right though, it doesn't fit with the scene.

That little waver in his voice when he says 'Not in my experience'. Oh, Dean, you break my heart. Jensen is a master at these little inflections that tell the story just as much, and often more than, what the words are saying.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

That little waver in his voice when he says 'Not in my experience'. Oh, Dean, you break my heart. Jensen is a master at these little inflections that tell the story just as much, and often more than, what the words are saying.

That was amazing. I could FEEL Dean's....whatever that was, it wasn't angst. It was deeper and more profound, because you know Dean was feeling all that had happened, all the things in and of his control. To me, it was comment on his entire life, punctuated by knowing he was just saved from Hell by Castiel. 

As an aside, I watch reaction videos for SPN and for those that have watched this episode, literally to a person, they react strongly to that moment, it's like some recoil, or put a hand to mouth or wince when Dean says that. Obviously, the line itself is a big deal,  but it has to be delivered in a way that makes it REALLY hit home for the audience with Dean. And man, that one is just a punch in the face, gut and heart. All Hail the Ackting in this episode. IMO.

[Iju]

tsk. jensen ackles, jensen ackles. how can you get even MORE handsome and still retain the same look from 3 years prior? i'll have to slap you one day.

eh i'm 50/50 on this. i didn't like how the reunion of sam and dean was just a hug, and then they almost immediately separate. sam was shxtting his pants when dean FAKE died in the parking lot and told him not to go out, but he just leaves him like a half hour he sees him? 

reunion aside i felt it was rushed, but it got to the point. castiel seems interesting enough. 

as 50/50 as i feel about this episode i'll still give it a 10/10 for that short but darn near ethereal dean's shirt flash was. i forgive all the episode. good lord he needs at least one more scene to show those beautifully toned stomach muscles, and SOON.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Iju

[Zipper]

Getting to binge watch this show takes a little out of Dean's resurrection. I didn't have to wait months to find out how they solved his demise. And, it's my second time through... so even less surprise.  But the opening scene still doesn't disappoint. He's hoarse, he's burning up oxygen with a Zippo. He's got to climb out. And look, if I buy that The Bride from Kill Bill can climb out? I TOTALLY buy that Dean Winchester can climb out. The pull-away shot, with all the trees down is majestic and haunting.

He's thirsty, and still hoarse. The gusto with which he drinks water is spot on. 

As noted above, Bobby's testing of him is great-- the reaction shot to the holy water is so humorous. The spit makes me giggle. "Thriller video reject" is a funny line.

The look on Sam's face, contrasted with the total love and joy on Dean's? It's fear and doubt and apprehension and disbelief. Nice work by both actors.

I'm pretty much convinced that Ruby pulled the Kathy/Christy thing to further the idea that it was just a hook-up. It fits within her MO-- manipulative liar, protecting her own agenda, like pretending to not know who Dean is at first. Sure, she might actually like Sam. Or it might be BS to gain his trust. That's not clear now. And I'm fine with that. It even helps me appreciate Sam's motivation with her-- he sees saving people, even with her help, as more important than anything else. That her help comes in an I-like-you-and-sleep-with-you package probably allows Sam a bit less self-recrimination. 

Sure, it's twisted in some ways. He watched Dean die 100 times, then actually get mutilated and killed by a hellhound while he survived Lilith, and for four months, failed at any effort to fix it.  He's had some serious sh*t to deal with, and the fact that he may have made some bad decisions in that process? Understandable.  So I don't mind much that Sam obscures Ruby for now. He knows Dean is going to lose it, and Dean's fresh out of Hell so why not take a few days to figure out how to present this, maybe prepare yourself for having to make a Dean/Ruby choice, or find a place where that choice isn't so horrible. Get into his own head and look over the possible options. But what does not work for me is when Sam earnestly declares to Dean that he would NOT use his psychic powers because it was almost Dean's "dying wish." You do NOT have to sell your BS like that, and it makes me think the writers want me to be angry with Sam from the outset. Also, and this is a tiny detail, but when Ruby leaves the room, and Sam is turned away from Dean and Bobby, he's grinning at her like she was a one night stand, but she was fun enough to have hang around for pizza. It's way more flirty than it needs to be to sell the illusion, because they can't see his face. Weird choice, unless I'm also to believe that Sam has some real affection/attraction to her. That is a LOT to process.

So they contrast Sam's betrayal with his first real dialogue of the season being this heartfelt, self-anger, frustration, and humiliation that he couldn't save Dean. The delivery by JP is so credible, so raw. The acting makes me believe Sam has been wrung to the core, and it makes him sympathetic and worthy of compassion. I always try to find a space where all aspects of the character can live in some degree of harmony. And we're all full of little quirks and inconsistencies. But this seems like a lot of ambiguity to accept in one ep. Am I to feel so much empathy for Sam that I condone his lie to Dean? And his consorting with a demon? It's asking me to embrace a Sam version where his "do good" motivation blinds him and makes him a lying liar to Dean, fresh out of Hell. Tough wrangle for me because one of the big lessons for both boys in S3 was supposed to be: not all "do good" is wise, the human self-preservation drive has a purpose, and your instinct to self-sacrifice should be weighed ever so carefully. 

Whenever it's a psychic, I want it to be Missouri. But Pamela's open admiration of Dean ("your gain") is so cool, and Dean's "you're not invited" is pitch perfect for him. 

The one Dean thing that strikes me a bit unharmonious is his drive to summon the unknown thing of unimaginable power. After seeing Pamela's fate, and knowing that demons are terrified to the point of letting him walk out the door after smacking the ever-loving snot out of the presumed leader? He's out of Hell for one damn day and he's prepared to sacrifice his life all over again?  That is hard for me to accept in him. I want Dean to cherish his life for a few minutes before plunging headlong into risk. 

When Castiel looks into his soul and says you don't think you deserve to be saved, followed by JA's reaction? Heartbreaking.

Gah... this got so long. Sorry.  One last thought. Dean's conduct in life didn't make him deserve Hell. If he deserved Hell in the show's construct, it's because he made a deal to go there. And in return, he got Sam's life. At this point in the show, a deal is a deal when you can't figure out how to kill the deal-holding demon. So he could legit believe he didn't deserve saving because he made a deal, and because of what happened there. But, his perception is likely still colored by his pre-death lack of self-worth. And that pains me for him. Again, sorry for the length, but this ep really starts a process where I struggle with the characterization, so I'm hoping putting my thoughts down will help me this time around.

[gonzosgirrl]

I could maybe have thought better of Sam if he hadn't run off to Ruby and left Dean alone on his first night back from Hell. Just... no.

52 minutes ago, Zipper said:

The one Dean thing that strikes me a bit unharmonious is his drive to summon the unknown thing of unimaginable power. After seeing Pamela's fate, and knowing that demons are terrified to the point of letting him walk out the door after smacking the ever-loving snot out of the presumed leader? He's out of Hell for one damn day and he's prepared to sacrifice his life all over again?  That is hard for me to accept in him. I want Dean to cherish his life for a few minutes before plunging headlong into risk. 

I thought this was perfectly in character with Dean. From the jump he couldn't accept that he deserved to be saved and his need to know who, what and why was paramount. I don't think he saw it as sacrificing his life as much as justifying it, especially after what happened to Pam (in his mind) because of him.

[AwesomO4000]

54 minutes ago, Zipper said:

Again, sorry for the length, but this ep really starts a process where I struggle with the characterization, so I'm hoping putting my thoughts down will help me this time around.

I so agree with this... me too, and a lot because of this:

55 minutes ago, Zipper said:

But what does not work for me is when Sam earnestly declares to Dean that he would NOT use his psychic powers because it was almost Dean's "dying wish." You do NOT have to sell your BS like that, and it makes me think the writers want me to be angry with Sam from the outset.

it almost seems that way to me, too... And this:

57 minutes ago, Zipper said:

But this seems like a lot of ambiguity to accept in one ep.

I also agree. I think that it was done for the supposed "pay off" later, but I think they went too far with it when they didn't have to, and the end result was taking away some of Sam's point of view and some of the sympathy we might have had for him later on.

And to that same point, I think the time jump did something similar. That we didn't see Sam having to bury Dean I think was a mistake in terms of garnering sympathy and motivation for Sam's actions. It was a very important part of Dean's motivation to make the deal that he was left behind with a dead Sam... Had we just seen Dean make the deal without that scene of him talking to Sam's body, for example, Dean's motivation for making the deal would've been much less clear - and in my opinion - probably less sympathetic. I think Sam's character suffered from the ambiguity of not having a similar - or even contrasting - scene. I would like to have known Sam's mindset after being faced with that. How did he get to burying Dean instead of a hunter's funeral? How did he convince Bobby to go along with that plan (Dean might need his body just in case - or however it was Bobby said that Sam put it - should've sent alarm bells off for Bobby, not agreement), or is that why Dean was buried in Pontiac and so modestly and seemingly hastily? ...So Bobby wouldn't be able to find Dean's body and do a hunter's funeral.

I also think the ambiguity of Dean's did he remember hell or didn't he was similarly too much ambiguity - for me anyway - because later on I was trying to make the pieces fit, and they just didn't fit so well for me. It seemed in this episode - for me - that except for a few flashes, Dean didn't remember. He was acting too calmly and normally in that first scene, so my conclusion was that he didn't remember just like he said. So later on when

Spoiler

we learned that he did remember,

that first scene just didn't seem to ring true for me in retrospect, and I kind of resented that ambiguity for supposed later payoff set up. That's just my opinion, though. I know others disagree on this point.

[Zipper]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I thought this was perfectly in character with Dean. From the jump he couldn't accept that he deserved to be saved and his need to know who, what and why was paramount. I don't think he saw it as sacrificing his life as much as justifying it, especially after what happened to Pam (in his mind) because of him.

 

All very good points, and I agree that for a pre-Hell Dean this was totally in character. I guess I just wish that his need to know, to justify, and maybe even retaliate appeared more balanced with a will to live given this new post-Hell opportunity. That's probably putting too much on the show or Dean, but the idea that his lack of acceptance (and resulting behavior) completely overshadows what must be earth-shattering relief for not being in Hell anymore... that's the lack of harmony. To me, it comes off as a total inability to appreciate or value the chance he's been given in the first days back. So that makes him either cavalier with his own brand new life or so filled with self-loathing that he's willing to risk death, or both. He's been super confident before, but not stupidly so, and there is literally no plan other than summon it and hope for the best. With stakes this high and no guarantee he isn't going right back to Hell if he dies? That seems like a lot to gamble.

[Zipper]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I think Sam's character suffered from the ambiguity of not having a similar - or even contrasting - scene. I would like to have known Sam's mindset after being faced with that. How did he get to burying Dean instead of a hunter's funeral? How did he convince Bobby to go along with that plan (Dean might need his body just in case - or however it was Bobby said that Sam put it - should've sent alarm bells off for Bobby, not agreement), or is that why Dean was buried in Pontiac and so modestly and seemingly hastily? ...So Bobby wouldn't be able to find Dean's body and do a hunter's funeral.

AwesomO4000 I get where you're at here, particularly because the few scenes we got in Mystery Spot where Sam lived on alone after Dean got shot were so powerful. Maybe the desire to have Dean crawl out of the grave as the first scene just threw this possibility out the window. Who knows. But some kind of light on Sam's struggle over the four months would probably have made it easier for me to cut him more slack at the beginning of this season. Maybe the show does want us pissed at Sam, or at least mightily confused.

On Dean's memory ambiguity: he flat out lies about it being blacked out, but even if all he remembers now is flashes, it's still terrifying enough to completely alter any mere mortal. Subsequently, there are super-jarring moments, but I don't recall those well enough to have much of an opinion now. With just the information we have here, he's either a master of compartmentalization or denial or both. Or, maybe it's his self-sacrificing any healthy treatment of his recollection for Sam's benefit, which would be consistent with pre-Hell Dean.

[AwesomO4000]

3 minutes ago, Zipper said:

With just the information we have here, he's either a master of compartmentalization or denial or both. Or, maybe it's his self-sacrificing any healthy treatment of his recollection for Sam's benefit, which would be consistent with pre-Hell Dean.

I agree that that is consistent with Dean's pre-hell behavior, and it makes some sense for when he is with Sam and even Bobby, but when Dean comes out of his grave, he's alone. There shouldn't have to be the immediate compartmentalization or denial at that point. He has no immediate emergencies to deal with. He's just there... and in my opinion, should have been more freaked out - especially by Castiel showing up and "talking" to him - before he maybe "pulled it together" and went on. I guess I would have liked just a bit of transition rather than "oh, he's acting just like regular Dean. I guess he's okay..." I would've even been okay with a time passing kind of montage where it took Dean a few days maybe even to pull himself together and decide to go find everyone... there was no need in my opinion for Dean to just get up and go right away. ...But that's probably just me.

As it was, I didn't so much see the lying as such as find the revelation that he did remember everything - for me anyway - as seemingly coming out of left field, because what he did remember should've sent Dean screaming to the nuthouse rather than soldiering on as if nothing happened. So the "surprise reveal" fell flat, because for me it just didn't seem entirely believable. I would rather have known from the beginning and seen a more - for me - believable (as much as it could be anyway) build-up to what we got later. I could understand why Sam didn't see it - not only because he was involved with his own crap and crappy behavior - but because I didn't really see it either, even in retrospect... at least until maybe "Yellow Fever" - but since I dislike that episode a lot and don't rewatch it, it doesn't count for me as much.

[devlin]

The part that stuck in my craw was that sam left dean to go fight a couple of demons with his demon girlfriend. Dean had been back from hell for one day and he was more than happy to leave him without even tell him where he was going and knowing that something was on dean’s tail. I don’t know about you but if my loved one returned from hell I wouldn’t be able to take my eyes off him just to keep reassuring myself that it was real and to offer comfort if needed.

[DeeDee79]

33 minutes ago, devlin said:

The part that stuck in my craw was that sam left dean to go fight a couple of demons with his demon girlfriend. Dean had been back from hell for one day and he was more than happy to leave him without even tell him where he was going and knowing that something was on dean’s tail. I don’t know about you but if my loved one returned from hell I wouldn’t be able to take my eyes off him just to keep reassuring myself that it was real and to offer comfort if needed.

This!!

[The Companion]

This episode was awesome. I loved the mistrust when Dean showed up. I may change my mind as the season progresses, but I don't mind the brothers being out of synch initially. I particularly think it rings true that Sam would have trouble sliding back into letting Dean lead. 

Most critically, I learned that I have been pronouncing Castiel wrong in my head for years. 😆

[gonzosgirrl]

5 hours ago, The Companion said:

This episode was awesome. I loved the mistrust when Dean showed up. I may change my mind as the season progresses, but I don't mind the brothers being out of synch initially. I particularly think it rings true that Sam would have trouble sliding back into letting Dean lead. 

Most critically, I learned that I have been pronouncing Castiel wrong in my head for years. 😆

Are you watching unspoiled by anything from the future episodes?

[The Companion]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Are you watching unspoiled by anything from the future episodes?

Yes. I am on maternity leave. I don't remember why I didn't watch beyond the pilot originally but have always wanted to go back. There are so many episodes though! I actually did this with Veronica Mars first and was joking that I am very specifically catching up on shows I missed around 2005. Now, I have been spoiled over the years on a few things, naturally, and there have been spoilers in some of these threads. But for the most part, I am doing this blind. I actually didn't expect any comments on my comments and am impressed by the number of fans who have responded (and by the amount of detail they recall).

Over the years I saw the name Castiel over and over and always thought it was Cas-teel. I guess I have never heard it pronounced or never put it together. 

[trudysmom]

This is my favorite episode, hands down.  I don't analyze it, don't pick it apart for hidden agendas.  It's a great stand-alone episode that gets me every time.  That bow-legged walk down the road to the abandoned store, the cleaning up and looking at the hand print in the mirror, the smirk on his face when he finds a copy of Busty Asian Beauties.  It's a guilty pleasure I indulge in every now and then.  I do find myself hating on Sam a little bit, but I can let that go for the most part.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, The Companion said:

Yes. I am on maternity leave. I don't remember why I didn't watch beyond the pilot originally but have always wanted to go back. There are so many episodes though! I actually did this with Veronica Mars first and was joking that I am very specifically catching up on shows I missed around 2005. Now, I have been spoiled over the years on a few things, naturally, and there have been spoilers in some of these threads. But for the most part, I am doing this blind. I actually didn't expect any comments on my comments and am impressed by the number of fans who have responded (and by the amount of detail they recall).

Over the years I saw the name Castiel over and over and always thought it was Cas-teel. I guess I have never heard it pronounced or never put it together. 

I watched the whole series up to 10x11 over the course of about three weeks and managed to be unspoiled for most of it, but there is so much that's part of the pop-culture there were some things I knew, even though I'd never seen an ep or followed any of the actors. 10x12 was the first episode I saw in real time.

It's not surprising that new comments invite attention. One thing the SPN fandom loves is to talk about SPN. Heh.

I was surprised you had no comment for No Rest For The Wicked - it was such a pivotal episode for the series.

[The Companion]

15 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I watched the whole series up to 10x11 over the course of about three weeks and managed to be unspoiled for most of it, but there is so much that's part of the pop-culture there were some things I knew, even though I'd never seen an ep or followed any of the actors. 10x12 was the first episode I saw in real time.

It's not surprising that new comments invite attention. One thing the SPN fandom loves is to talk about SPN. Heh.

I was surprised you had no comment for No Rest For The Wicked - it was such a pivotal episode for the series.

Oh that's partially because I couldn't stand to wait for the next episode. 😆 I usually post between episodes (though not every time). That thread also so thoroughly addressed my thoughts. I may still go back and comment.