The Musketeers - General Discussion

[writersblock51]

2 hours ago, DCWash said:

I'm kind of looking at this thread through my fingers and squinted eyelids so as to avoid spoilers--I'm watching this on BBC time--but I've got a couple of questions left over from last season, and thought this would be the best place to ask:

I'm trying to remember: Did Porthos actually wind up with an estate and big house? There was so much back-and-forth about whose son he really was, and who was really who they said they were, and viewer commentary on top of that, that I'm all confused.

The same applies to whether Athos actually gave up title to--and income from--his lands. They made reference to it this season, but only in passing, and only in the form of a single sentence, trying to make him look especially good to Swordfighting Girl. I remember a lot of discussion as to whether he actually, technically, legally, could surrender it all, including his own noble title, but I don't remember what the upshot was.

Thank you. I'll open my eyes again when I'm notified of an answer.

Hopefully someone else - perhaps more familiar with how titled land worked back in 17th century France - can answer as to how it should have worked.  I can only answer about what was shown on the series.

Porthos' father was the scoundrel that had made Treville and De Foix promise to keep his secret.  Treville was the father figure Porthos needed and deserved, IMO.  We don't know what happened to his estate or to his father, for that matter.  If his father was arrested (along with his half sister), the show made no mention of it that I'm aware of.  So we can assume that he inherited it all upon his father's death or imprisonment?

Athos - this one is confusing because he gave up his title and lands in spirit but I don't know if that was legally binding.  There wasn't anything left of the house but the land was still his when he was there last.  How he passed it on to the village people is another matter.  I don't think the show explained it well.

[Llywela]

I think the gravelly voice is meant to be part of Bonnaire's role playing. He's constantly putting on an act, pretending to be something he isn't, the flamboyant, swashbuckling adventurer - the gravelly voice drops completely in those few moments he stops play acting and allows his real self to peek through the mask. Like when he was talking to Constance about his first wife (although of course that too was calculated to try to gain her sympathy) and at the end when he was pleading for his new wife's life.

[DCWash]

On 6/29/2016 at 1:09 AM, writersblock51 said:

I can only answer about what was shown on the series.

Which is just what I was looking for. I remember there was a lot of discussion about the legal/historical accuracy or possibilities in both cases--which I do find interesting!--but after a year I was sure I was getting those discussions jumbled up in my mind with what the limits of what the show actually told us. It's good to know my fuzzy memory is at least partly the way it is because the scripts themselves were fuzzy. Thank you.

[Llywela]

Well, I'm enjoying the season. Maybe not quite as polished (if that's the right word - probably not, this show has never been polished) as the earlier seasons, but still reliable entertainment. I'm really appreciating the way the changing cast is used to push forward developments both for the characters and the politics. I also really appreciate the difference between the villains in each season. In season one we had Richelieu, the consummate professional and power behind the throne, a father-figure to Louis with his finger in a dozen pies at any given moment, hating the Musketeers for being outside his control yet capable of working with them if the situation called for it, always with one eye on the good of the realm and the other on personal gain. In season two we had Rochefort, who took advantage of the power vacuum left by Richelieu, twisted and manipulative, the consummate opportunist taking advantage of any and every opening to further his own position, ultimately consumed by his own madness. And now this season we have a partnership of evil, which is a departure in itself (Richelieu had Milady, but she was very much his subordinate, while Rochefort was always alone). I find Feron fascinating because he is so clearly just making all this up as he goes along. He's bitter and resentful of everything, including his own allies, yet is capable of sympathetic feeling, even if it does seem to always take him by surprise (and is never allowed to guide him) - in this episode, he seemed genuinely touched that the little Dauphin came over to see if he was okay when he collapsed...and then used that genuine emotion to make his profession of loyalty sound good, even while lying through his teeth. And his relationship with Grimaud is also interesting to watch because they hate each other so much yet are tied together because neither one can achieve his goal without the other.

I enjoyed the non-verbal communication between Constance and Aramis in this episode, agreeing an entire rescue plan for the blind lady without a word spoken, very much in tune. I hope someone found the 17th century equivalent of linament for Aramis after, though - falling down those stairs would have hurt! His relationship with the queen, meanwhile, remains dangerous even as they try to avoid one another - coming to her rescue and saving her life is his duty, he found an angle none of the others could have...but then allowed the king to see them conversing, apart from the others. It doesn't matter how innocent that conversation was, it was always going to be dangerous, a reminder that although they were both completely exonerated of all Rochefort's accusations, that seed of doubt once planted can be tough to uproot, and Louis has had that doubt festering for years now. He loves the Dauphin perhaps all the more fiercely for that doubt, refusing to believe that the child may not be his - but any reminder of the suspicion is going to be like a red rag to a bull.

I rewatched the very first episode the other day, which reminded me of how far Constance has come from a sedate merchant's wife who was horrified with herself for killing a man even to save a friend's life, to a soldier's wife who casually cuts down an enemy in combat without thinking twice!

ETA I also appreciated Aramis' little talk with D'Artagnan about being unable to measure the consequences of one's actions and how he's learned that lesson himself the hard way. He's avoided romantic entanglements of any kind so far this season, so maybe he actually has learned his lesson this time! I might have liked a little more focus on D'Artagnan's guilt over Borel's actions, instead of glossing over that guilt (which we saw but never really delved into), but the episode was a bit too crammed with sub-plots for any real depth.

Edited July 3, 2016 by Llywela

[DCWash]

Think there's a connection between this episode and this story? (Though that's a layman's article, I got it from an internet forum that specializes in historic dress. I can get you some WAY more detailed information if you want.)

So, do you think we would have heard the phrase "coitus interuptus" if this show was still airing before 9:00?

Not overly enamored with this episode, though it wasn't really bad, either. I do think we got to see a bit more of The Boyz as individuals, though--Aramis being both Athos and Porthos' penance, D'Artagnon the farm boy, Aramis' back story (though I had a bit of a hard time believing it), Athos seemingly wanting a friend-with-benefits while Sylvie wants more. (He didn't seem too pained at her "you don't want to know me better" remark, did he? Because, I'm assuming, no, he doesn't want to get to know you better, missy! At this point, he's just not that into you, ya know?) I'm a little bothered by all the class conflict--it just doesn't seem true for this period (give it 150 years and it's a different matter), and feels forced.

Another thing I liked was the interactions between Louis and Queen Anne, vs. Louis and Queen Henrietta Maria. There were a couple of times in earlier seasons when Anne made some comment that alluded to she and Louis essentially growing up together, and that she as well as he, both being royal from birth, really have no idea how else to live and think except as royals, which separates them even from the nobility. I like that, and saw it a lot tonight. I really enjoy it when she and Louis are on the same page. Some of the looks they exchanged when Henrietta Maria was ranting said, "Now, that's no way for a queen to behave, is it?" which they could only exchange with each other. Then there was the more prosaic, unspoken, "I'll handle her; she's MY sister after all." "Yes, she is. And I've got your back." Which is something most married couples could relate to, if they only knew.

[DCWash]

Quote

 

The crazy guy was rather interesting since he kept reminding me of the various stories about back-up, not quite legitimate kings who were imprisoned while the wrong king is on the throne, so that kept me interested. Too bad it never went anywhere.

I thought the crazy guy was going to become The Man In The Iron Mask.

 

I was getting a "Man in the Iron Mask" kind of vibe, too (though I admit I barely know the outlines of that story). I knew better, but I did wonder early on if Mr. Madman (Borel? Was that his name?) might have some kind of legitimate claim to the throne. Or at least a reason to believe he had a legitimate claim, like Henry Tudor or something. In the process, I thought for a while that the locksmith--who wasn't immediately identified as a locksmith, in particular, though you did get the impression that he was some kind of skilled craftsman--was going to be forced to make an iron-ish mask for Mr. Madman.

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The Dutch lender's death was brushed aside, and the loan documents were conveniently burned.

I don't know that it was "brushed aside," if you mean nobody asked questions when a corpse was staring them in the face. I think it was easy, and actually not unreasonable, for the Musketeers to assume Mr. Madman had killed him, given that he had already killed at least two nuns and was believed to be in the garden, where the corpse was found. In fact, they saw Mr. Madman right there mere moments after they found the corpse. I also think that, between Feron and his henchmen and everybody else who seemed interested in the documents, you could pretty much expect the loan document to disappear. I'd rather Mr. Madman hadn't been the one to do it--that seemed kind of grotesque to me--but I knew it wasn't long for this world as soon as it landed on the king's desk.

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in this episode, he seemed genuinely touched that the little Dauphin came over to see if he was okay when he collapsed...and then used that genuine emotion to make his profession of loyalty sound good, even while lying through his teeth.

I enjoyed parsing that profession of loyalty, to see if the actual words could be interpreted as meaning he supported somebody other than the dauphin. I think they could. I didn't see the emotion that you did, and if fact wondered if he was faking the fall, but I can understand how you read the performance differently.

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I might have liked a little more focus on D'Artagnan's guilt over Borel's actions, instead of glossing over that guilt (which we saw but never really delved into)

I think it could be argued--in fact, kind of expected Aramis to make the argument--that killing Borel was putting him out of his misery, and in a way an act of mercy. Can't say I fully agree with it, but it seems to be a legitimate point.

I was surprised to hear this was the dauphin's SIXTH birthday. The said at the start that four years have passed since the end of Series 2. But he wasn't two years old when we saw him in that last episode. So are they giving us a kind of timeline to this season? Letting us know much time is passing between episodes, kind of? 

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, DCWash said:

I enjoyed parsing that profession of loyalty, to see if the actual words could be interpreted as meaning he supported somebody other than the dauphin. I think they could. I didn't see the emotion that you did, and if fact wondered if he was faking the fall, but I can understand how you read the performance differently.

I was surprised to hear this was the dauphin's SIXTH birthday. The said at the start that four years have passed since the end of Series 2. But he wasn't two years old when we saw him in that last episode. So are they giving us a kind of timeline to this season? Letting us know much time is passing between episodes, kind of? 

It read to me a bit like the scene where Feron talked to Grimaud about Louis' illness and admitted to feeling (and being surprised by feeling) actual emotions about it, beyond the most immediate 'this is a big opportunity'. Not actual sympathy for his brother or concern for his health, but a definite sense of 'is this an emotion that isn't bitterness? How weird', if that makes sense. It's as if Feron has felt nothing but bitterness and resentment for so long that whenever he gets even the tiniest flickering of any other kind of emotion, whether good or bad, it takes him by surprise and he finds it puzzling...while remaining motivated by nothing but the bitterness and resentment he's nursed no doubt all his life.

The Dauphin was probably close to his first birthday by the end of season two. If the four years following were an approximation rather than exact (say, four years plus a month or two), he could well have just turned five by the start of this season, so his sixth birthday in this episode tells us yes, that time is passing as the season progresses - but I'd say months, rather than two years.

ETA there was something I wanted to add about Aramis and Anne, but the thought is hazy and ill-formed. They've just got themselves into such a hopeless loop, as things stand. Risking his life to save hers is his duty as a Musketeer, but he's quicker and more zealous about it than any other Musketeer precisely because of their history and connection, which is also the reason Louis can't respond graciously to said life-saving, because it's always Aramis who saves her, and it can't be read merely as duty and devotion to his queen, because his devotion to his queen is now tainted by entirely accurate accusations, salt in the wound of Louis' cuckolding.

Also a sign of how things have changed - Aramis took a musket ball to the face for Anne here, if the angle had been even a tiny bit different he'd be dead, but where in season one we'd have lingered on her gratitude and concern for his injury, building the romantic connection, here both were glossed over because that connection is now dangerous, they have been actively avoiding one another and must continue to do so - even being seen together completely innocently (after he has done his duty as a Musketeer by saving her life) can only make things worse. I'm just sorry we didn't get to see Athos react properly to it all!

Edited July 4, 2016 by Llywela

[millennium]

On 6/1/2016 at 11:56 AM, atomationage said:

 

I suppose Grimaud won't die until the final episode.   I want Matt Stokoe's character to go over to the good side, but maybe that's expecting too much. 

I want Milady to kill Sylvie, but again probably expecting too much.

[Llywela]

Well this was an intriguing episode - lots of action, lots of drama, lots of plot and development getting pushed forward. All the whump, all the solidarity and brotherly bonding, all good things.

A big surprise to lose Feron mid-season, but fitting, I suppose, that he'd end up being taken out by his own henchman. It's been clear all along that Feron couldn't control Grimaud, and that his need of Grimaud was greater than Grimaud's need of Feron, and it's also been clear all along that Feron was a bit of a loose cannon, wavering back and forth over what he actually wanted and what he was prepared to do to achieve it, and frequently in too much of a drug-induced haze to get much of anything done at all. I'm pleased to have been vindicated in my belief that Feron did have gentler emotions lurking beneath all that bitterness and resentment, even if he didn't know what to do with them - I thought I saw something of the sort when the little Dauphin rushed over to him when he fell last week, he seemed genuinely touched by his nephew's affection (and was surprised at himself for it). And here we saw him draw a line in the sand over what he was prepared to do (kill guards and soldiers with impunity, but not his brother) and then switch his allegiance completely when Louis not only gave him emotional validation but also offered him for free the kind of power and status he's been striving toward all this time. I've found him a much more interesting character than Rochefort last season - having a three-way axis of evil in general has been more interesting than Rochefort's solo manoeuvring, because these bad guys aren't just plotting against our heroes, they also have all kind of power struggles going on within themselves. How long can Grimaud rely on Marchaux's cooperation now that Feron is gone, for instance.

Grimaud himself is definitely a cockroach - nothing seems to kill him! I suppose it's too much to hope that his wounds will fester and die between episodes...

Another fascinating thing about this episode: we got to see what Athos is like in a relationship, one that's new and exciting, the first flush of love. We've never seen that before - his ongoing push-pull with Milady was already too tainted with their tragic history for him to ever be at ease with her, even had the actress been available for this season. His relationship with Sylvie is free of all that mistrust, free of all those negative associations, leaving him free to enjoy himself, which, two and a half seasons into the show, we've never seen before! But of course that carefree enjoyment (bondage fun! Athos!) couldn't last longer than an episode before he straps his hairshirt of self-denial back on and ditches her in favour of duty. I think he's trying to protect both her and himself (and his comrades), knowing as he does that Grimaud is still out there, plotting, and that he can't afford to let his guard drop. But he still has choices. He could invite her into the fold, with Constance...except that he can't offer to marry her, since he's technically still married to Milady, isn't he? And maybe he isn't ready yet to make that kind of commitment anyway, having been hung up on his own history for so long. Just letting himself relax with her was a huge step forward, and he isn't one to rush in before he's ready. Baby steps all the way - one step forward and two back, apparently. But I'm not sure severing ties with Sylvie will protect her - Grimaud knows her, and won't forget that she shot him.

It was lovely to see Porthos and D'Aartagnan spending some quality time together in this episode - the group doesn't often divide up that way. The interlude gave us insight into both characters and their hopes (and fears) for the future - as well as telling us clearly that D'Artagnan and Constance are not on the same page with regard to children, and have not talked about it, either. They really should, at some point, since they clearly want different things. And I'm with D'Artagnan in hoping for love and happiness for Porthos sooner rather than later!

And then there was Aramis and the king, which was intriguing from start to finish. I might have expected a bit more concern from Porthos and D'Artagnan when Aramis was hauled off to the king - knowing what they know, the backstory and all, they have to have expected nothing good of that summons! They didn't seem too bothered about it, though. They'd have had a nasty shock if they got back to Paris to find Aramis hanged! Which technically could have happened - the king did sentence him to hang, although he immediately undermined that sentence by telling him to go away, thus providing an immediate opportunity to escape the sentence, should he wish. Louis just seems so tired of it all, but his character has gained so much insight and stability as a result, it's really interesting to see what his illness is doing to him. Aramis actually admitting the truth was something I really didn't see coming, and probably couldn't have happened under any other circumstances, but having the truth demanded in this way, while the two were completely alone, on a religious pilgrimage and accompanied by a confession of the king's illness - now that was more calculated than I thought Louis had in him, got right under his guard and hit him where he's most vulnerable. Well played, Louis. Although thinking about it, I think the threat of hanging was something he was never really going to go through with. As Constance told Anne, he wouldn't want the public spectacle. He loves the Dauphin too much to publicly admit any doubt over paternity. Banning Aramis from any contact with either the queen or the Dauphin really is letting him off lightly, all things considered!

But of course Aramis is Aramis and never does as he's told. First he blabs Louis' secret to the other Musketeers (in fairness, Louis didn't tell him to keep it secret, as he did Treville) and then he immediately defies Louis' order to meet with Anne in secret. And she came, as well - after they'd spent the whole season up till this point studiously avoiding one another, one secret summons and she came. But she knew Aramis had been on pilgrimage with Louis and was no doubt desperate to know what it was all about, thus decided to take the risk of meeting. How she got to St Denis in secret is anyone's guess, mind!

Edited July 10, 2016 by Llywela

[DCWash]

I had read the BBC precis of this episode, where they said it Grimaud and Ferron had decided to kill the Musketeers (or at least The Big Four), and that the result was the "death of a hero." Otherwise, I've worked really had, though not completely successfully, to remain unspoiled for this season. I'm watching the series via iPlayer, and trying to keep up with the BBC schedule, but I kept delaying this episode and I came to realize it was because I was convinced the "hero" was Treville, and I didn't want to see him go! My reasoning was that he was generally recognized by the audience as "heroic" one one of the all-round good-guys we care about, but they couldn't kill off one of Our Boyz this early in the season, and in fact probably wouldn't kill one off at all. 

It then occurred to me that maybe Grimaud was actually the "hero," based on actions in earlier wars, and we'd learn the truth about his history tonight. (Okay, in this episode.) As the episode went on, though, I threw all caution to the wind and started going, "It's him! No, it's him!" including everybody short of D'Artagnon. I even included the king on the list for a brief second, until I decided they couldn't mess with history THAT much. Now I have to watch the thing over again, enjoying it for itself instead of trying to get ahead of the plot.

Because I did enjoy it. I agree, this is one of the best episodes the show has had, certainly one of the best of the season. I don't know that I'd call Ferron's death "heroic," though. Not without a certain bravery, but I don't think he seriously expected to get the shiv from Grimaud, and firing the shot didn't cost him anything. I also agree in thinking Ryan Gage has really strutted his stuff this season, not the least because this year's Louis is so much more mature and complex than we've seen him before. I can't think of a step Louis took wrong this episode, and I don't know when I've been able to say that before. I'm rather glad Aramis saw that side of him. Okay, maybe pinning Aramis down on the whole Queen Anne issue wasn't such a wonderful idea, but it was an understandable one, and he could have handled it a lot worse. Maybe Aramis' answer about the "loneliest woman in Paris" will have an effect....

Otherwise, the whole episode was a tease about who was going to bite it, but a very well done tease, and given the nature of the show, that's just fine. In its way, I think it pointed to a happy ending for the conclusion of the season, and of the show as a whole, though it's too late to credibly set Porthos up with a wife.

Oh, and Aramis isn't really a priest, is he? He spent some time in a monastery, which they alluded to, but that doesn't make him an actual priest, qualified to grant absolution in confessions. (I think, but I may be wrong, that, given the generally recognized need people have to get things off their chests when death looms, the church allows anybody to hear a confession, just not to grant absolution. They may even be able to suggest absolution have been given, so long as they make it clear they're not giving it themselves. As in, "Judging from your obvious contrition, and God's mercy, I'm betting He's absolved you, but I'm not making any promises!" Whereas the whole point of confessing to priest is that he can, indeed, make those promises.) However, I doubt if Louis has looked that closely into the resume's of his Musketeers, so his confusion on this matter may be understandable. I'm not so sure I like the fact that the show didn't straighten that out for the audience, though.

[skyways]

This season is the best of the three.

[DCWash]

A hundred women around who've given birth, and it takes a Musketeer to deliver a baby?

I wasn't that enamored with this episode. I didn't see much point of Athos' delirium, or at least I didn't see the point of us having to watch as much of it, or in the detail that we did. (Though I did find it amusing that last week, Porthos and D'Artagnon had a two-story building collapse on their heads yet were able to jump on their horses and gallop off in hot pursuit as soon as they were pulled from the ruble, and Grimaud pried bullets from his guts on two different occasions and just kept going, but Athos was laid low by a sword slash on his back the likes of which he seems to get every day.)  

I do like that the running theme of this series seems to be the true costs of war. We've had refugees; now we have stories of rape and desertion. 

[millennium]

This episode was very frustrating.   Our Heroes keep leaving Marchaux alive so that he can double down on the amount of damage he's done with each progressive move.   Meanwhile, Queenie was behaving like a royal spoiled brat.   Uncharacteristic of her, and the reason ultimately that the Dauphin was kidnapped and Treville lost his life.   But again, if the Musketeers hadn't allowed Marchaux to get away each time -- not even slip away, just literally walk or crawl away -- the Dauphin wouldn't have been snatched either.

Speaking of bratty, entitled behavior, Aramis made an ass of himself.  He couldn't wait to kick the King's corpse aside and establish himself as The Man, regardless that it put the boy at risk.

Constance and Sylvie were pretty stupid in their so-called protection of the little boy too.    It was like "We only have three sets where we can possibly hide him, and they're all just two doors down from Red Guard headquarters!"

The absence of Milady was also keenly felt, especially with only one episode left. 

[Grace284]

I think my favourite part of the episode was everyone concluding hope was lost for Porthos and d'Artagnan, with Athos staring broodingly into the distance, only to find them less than three feet away under one plank and four rocks. I hope they never go into a career in mountain rescue.

[DCWash]

6 hours ago, Grace284 said:

with Athos staring broodingly into the distance

Which may be the thing Athos does best....

[Llywela]

Hmm. There seems to be an awful lot happening off-screen this season - last week we saw Anne finding out from Aramis, in a very, very secret meeting, that Louis is dying, and now this week she is talking to Louis openly about his illness. How did she let him know that she knew? That's the kind of character interaction that's both interesting and important to see!

And will Constance and D'Artagnan's very different expectations about having children ever be openly addressed? They've both talked to other people about it, thus revealing those very different expectations, but will they ever talk to each other? Constance wasn't even in this episode.

After apparently weeks (if not months) went by between earlier episodes this season, here there are only a couple of days between this episode and the last one, so that Athos's injury remains very fresh. His stubbornness in not allowing anyone to treat said injury, followed by his poisoning and night of fever, seemed straight out of fanfic - nicely done, and no doubt fans of the character enjoyed watching him suffer so prettily, but I couldn't help wondering what they were all thinking - first letting Athos be one of the two to continue after Grimaud and then D'Artagnan turning back and leaving Athos to continue alone, when they all knew he was badly hurt and just barely hanging on. Sure, he'd have argued if anyone tried to make him stay with the women, he's taken the mission to capture Grimaud very personally (attempted murder will do that to a man), but still - the others really should have argued the toss!

I've seen people complaining elsewhere that Athos has been out of character this season. I think what they were reacting to was the sight of Athos allowing himself to explore the possibility of being happy - being interested in Sylvie, getting involved with Sylvie, relaxing and letting his guard down with Sylvie. It's a side of him we've never seen before, but that doesn't make it out of character - I took it more as a sign of healing, that he was allowing himself to move past the tragedies of the past and look toward a brighter, happier future with someone new, someone unconnected with the baggage of the past, thus allowing us to see a new, hitherto undeveloped aspect of his character: how he behaves in a relationship. But the moment things went wrong - and almost being murdered as a consequence of letting his guard down definitely counts as things going wrong - he reverted right back to form, shutting down emotionally and focusing grimly on duty to the exclusion of all else, including the woman he was just starting to fall for, all of which is absolutely in character to what we've seen of him in previous seasons!

Porthos was lovely here. And I loved the little moment of Treville asking if he could give Louis advice, with Louis automatically saying no, but then waiting expectantly/impatiently for the advice to be given anyway - with Treville automatically pulling his head in when told no, because he's a soldier and as such follows orders, and then surprised to realise that Louis was going to hear him out anyway.

Kind of heartbreaking to see Louis watching the little Dauphin play after having it confirmed that the child isn't his son - remaining at a distance in that scene, after always being shown so close to the child all season.

Edited July 18, 2016 by Llywela

[skyways]

This was the best episode so far and set things in motion that rolled on right to the last episode. I liked how Arthos untying his weapons at Sylvie's had consequences for him. I love when story-telling and scripts use seemingly inconsequential actions have wider ramifications. But I found it illogical that McNulty's character suddenly was telling the Governor of France what to do. It made no sense to me. Who was he to do that and on what grounds did he gain the guts? I am not buying McNulty in this role. The character is fearsome mind you, but I have seen the actor in a few good-looking, good guy roles to believe his cruelty here.

Edited July 21, 2016 by skyways

[skyways]

I really, really, really can't stand Agnes. Yes I know she's called Constance but Agnes suits her more. It goes with her' goody two shoes trying to be fierce' totally unconvincing partner role for D'Artagnan.

[skyways]

I too liked Arthos and Sylvie's story and don't agree with the' no chemistry' opinion. I think as long as Arthos was the broody, intense type he will have chemistry with anyone (Remember Ninon?). That scene when the King was seeing things was funny. Then Porthos says,' what happens when he starts seeing the Cardinal'? I burst out laughing. For once I did not feel the King was entirely useless. This season he was super as his actions were more significant and played higher stakes.

Why! why? did Agnes survive AGAIN??  I thought she's supposed to die in the books? Anyway that was not enough to dampen this season which I think it's the best of them. I have seen the episodes more than once which I have never done for this show - even went back and re-watched previous seasons. Too bad it's gone but at least it ended on a real high.

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, skyways said:

Why! why? did Agnes survive AGAIN??  I thought she's supposed to die in the books?

Agnes? Do you mean Constance? I think she's great. Yes, she dies in the book, after playing only a relatively minor role, but this show is only inspired by the books, it makes no attempt at an actual adaptation - probably for the best, since the female characters in the books really don't come off well at all. Constance is murdered, Milady is illegally executed, Queen Anne is a stone-cold bitch - and while that worked for the audience Dumas was writing for, today's television audience expects and demands more from its female characters, and rightly so.

I've always loved Ryan Gage's performance as Louis and agree he's been especially superb in season three.

[Llywela]

2 hours ago, skyways said:

This was the best episode so far and set things in motion that rolled on right to the last episode. I liked how Arthos untying his weapons at Sylvie's had consequences for him. I love when story-telling and scripts use seemingly inconsequential actions have wider ramifications. But I found it illogical that McNulty's character suddenly was telling the Governor of France what to do. It made no sense to me. Who was he to do that and on what grounds did he gain the guts?

It makes sense in terms of the twisted relationship established for the characters over the course of the season - they each need the other, and that gives them power over one another...and that power balance shifts and flows according to circumstances.

Feron was governor of Paris, btw, not the whole of France, and while he had great power and influence at court, he was heavily reliant on Grimaud to both supply his drugs and enact his schemes, and Grimaud's power over him grew accordingly - especially since Grimaud knew all kinds of nasty secrets about Feron, enough to destroy him with ease, as well as having the upper-hand physically, being a cold-blooded murderer and all. Grimaud was able to give Feron orders in that scene because Feron was already in way too deep to back out of their plot.

[Llywela]

Sorry, but disliking a character is not grounds for randomly renaming them. If you refer to Constance by a different name you've pulled out of a hat, no one is going to know who or what you are talking about - especially since there has actually been a character called Agnes in the show.

[skyways]

Thanks Llywela. We seem to enjoy the same shows.....*smiles*. Still I would have expected him to play it more like Gaston or the Duc of Beaufort ( 'I am royal blood/nobility and you creature dare not address me so!'........). Was Grimaud in the books and how did he worm his way into the royal circles? I understand he was Feron's creature but I don't remember if it was mentioned how it came to be so.

[Llywela]

No, the history of the relationship between the characters hasn't been addressed in the show, it was simply presented as a fait accompli.

Grimaud's name is taken from the books, but not his character - in fact, book!Grimaud is Athos's most trusted servant! His character in the show is closer to that of Mordaunt, the son of Milady who comes after the Musketeers in the second book (Twenty Years Later) to avenge her death and becomes something of a nemesis to them, Athos especially.

(Also in the books: Athos has a secret love child with Aramis's ex! I'm not making this up. :D I just finished the second book and I'm having a great time - teenage me couldn't get into Dumas at all, but adult me is finding him a lot of fun)

Edited July 21, 2016 by Llywela

[skyways]

Aramis' ex??????!!! which one? He has soo many!! Who was Sylvie and were she and Arthos as written? sorry for the questions! Hope you don't mind.

[skyways]

I know Llywela Lol. Suits me more. I really don't like the character.

Edited July 21, 2016 by skyways

[DCWash]

Quote

Also in the books: Athos has a secret love child with Aramis's ex! I'm not making this up. :D 

!!!!!!

Does Aramis know? If so, what does he think? (I can't imagine he'd react badly, given that this is, you know, the Musketeers and all.)

[Llywela]

8 hours ago, skyways said:

Aramis' ex??????!!! which one? He has soo many!! Who was Sylvie and were she and Arthos as written? sorry for the questions! Hope you don't mind.

 

1 hour ago, DCWash said:

!!!!!!

Does Aramis know? If so, what does he think? (I can't imagine he'd react badly, given that this is, you know, the Musketeers and all.)

Hehehe. All through the first book, Aramis is all secretive about his love life and keeps the name of his lover strictly to himself, he refers to her only as Marie Michon and when he writes to her pretends she's his cousin, but really she's the Duchess de Chevreuse, very close to the queen, and proves an invaluable ally to the musketeers, passing vital messages back and forth. By the time we get to book two, 20 years later, that liaison is long since over and Aramis is involved with someone else, another duchess (who gives birth to a son during the book, supposedly her husband's child, but Aramis takes a great interest in the boy's future and wellbeing), while Athos has 'adopted' a teenage boy he claims is an orphan he took an interest in. But we are explicitly told that this boy is the product of a one-night stand Athos had with the Duchess de Chevreuse, who has been in exile after falling out with the queen and only recently returned to favour. No one actually knows about this - Aramis certainly doesn't know who the boy's mother is, and is unlikely to mind much if he did, since these are all married women they are messing around with anyway - but all Athos's friends are aware that Raoul is his son, long before he actually admits it, they all comment on the likeness and exchange knowing glances and whatnot, it's an open secret. But all that is just background detail to the adventures that are the primary focus of the books, none of which play any real part in the show, which follows a different storyline entirely. And, of course, neither books nor show pay more than a passing nod to actual history! It's been really fascinating to read the books and see where the show has taken its influence and inspiration, while also seeing how very different they are from one another - the names and some of the character outlines are the same, the swashbuckling nature of the adventure is the same, and that's about it. But that's probably a discussion for another thread, really!

Sylvie is not a book character.

[skyways]

Spoiler

 

Phew thanks!  I really did like Sylvie.

[Llywela]

Well, it's all heating up now we're at the business end of the season, isn't it?!

Aramis and Treville yelling at each other at the end there...Aramis always was the most rebellious and insubordinate of all the Musketeers, going back to the first season, even. Athos's vaunted lesson about head over heart never even registered with this one! He yelled at the king the other week, as well - and the final outcome of that little pilgrimage seems to be that Louis is actively pretending Aramis doesn't exist, while the other Musketeers are very carefully keeping Aramis out of his sight. It was very noteworthy that Aramis was the only one of them not in the deputation attending the king at the end there, when Sylvie's punishment was revealed.

His illness has mellowed Louis, as well as making him grow the hell up. Aramis and Anne have both admitted treason in the last couple of episodes, and he hasn't executed either of them! But all the ground Anne managed to gain with him from last week seems to be lost again in this episode, thanks to Grimaud's machinations. I know he's the big bad of the season and as such will be with us to the end, but dammit, I want someone to kill the cockroach already!

A clear sign of how things have changed at the palace, with Louis' illness and Feron's death: Aramis and Anne are now meeting fairly openly in the palace, apparently unafraid of spies lurking around corners! So much for Louis' prohibition on them seeing one another ever again!

Man, but Tumblr seems to be lit up with the incandescent rage of rabid shippers who'd convinced themselves Athos-Milady were endgame and are furious that the writers don't see it the same way. Now, maybe things might have been different if Maimie McCoy had been available for the whole of this season, but the direction of Athos's story this season makes a lot more sense to me than him ending up back with Milady. The first two seasons did an excellent job of showing them each unable to move on from the other, their chemistry and passion can't be denied (even when they don't want to feel it), but it has always, always been clear to me that their baggage and history would forever drag them both down if they tried to be together, they'd never be able to move on from their shared past. Last season we saw Athos torn, tempted to try again, but when he missed her at the crossroads that signalled the end of that possibility, a final break, albeit not a clean one. Then with Sylvie this season, we've seen Athos finally putting the past behind him and beginning to heal, and it has been clear that was what he really needed: a complete fresh start, unfettered by the baggage of his past. In this episode we saw Milady realise that, and recognise also that her own tainted connection with him, passionate though it is, could never again hope to match the purity of the new connection he's formed with Sylvie. Her scene with Sylvie also proved that - Sylvie is a better person than Milady, and Milady very obviously realised that.

The tragedy is, though, that Milady herself still had a choice. She wanted to move on from her violent past, but she wanted to do it for Athos, rather than for herself - and when he rejected her, she kind of just gave up on herself. She isn't willing to be a better person for her own sake, for the sake of being that better person and doing the right thing. She wanted Athos to be the crutch to make that effort worthwhile, but he can't be that for her, for his own sake. So instead of doing it for herself, she goes back to what she knows, and that's unfortunate for her, but entirely in keeping with her storyline throughout the show.

I've been re-watching season one lately, and it's fascinating to compare S1 D'Artagnan to S3 D'Artagnan. He was such a Scrappy Doo in season one! But the puppy really has grown up now, become all mature and commanding, a true leader of men. A shame, perhaps, that he clearly never kept in touch with his family in Gascony - nor cared, apparently, that the loss of his farm affected more people than himself - but I guess that was the nature of the times, communication wasn't easy, and he evidently figured that everyone else would have to make their own way in the world just as he was. Interesting, mind, to see the debate over Aramis's life versus that of D'Artagnan's cousin. Porthos, who has no blood family, saw it as no choice at all: your blood brother comes first, always. But to D'Artagnan, who was once close to his family (well, we saw his devotion to his father in 1.01, at least), it could never be so clear-cut and was a terrible dilemma, because his loyalty was split between his family and his comrade, and he saw no reason to have to make a choice, he wanted to save them both (and, ultimately, did).

Some nice little throwaway details in the episode, not commented on at all in dialogue but there for viewers to notice, like the blow Porthos took to the head leaving him unsteady, or Grimaud's gun going off right next to Aramis's ear and his reaction. And both Aramis and Athos are carrying new scars that we've seen them acquire over the course of the season.

Edited July 24, 2016 by Llywela

[DCWash]

I'm sorry, but I just can't. STAND. Milady, either as a character (her role in the plots, etc.) or for herself. Did we really need her to return, with her Snowwhite's Stepmother outfits and all? Though it was interesting to see how quickly Athos went from tenderly hugging her to grasping her neck. That, more than Athos' actions for Sylvie on the scaffold, should have told her all she needed to know. She's never had a rival for Athos' affections, has she? At least one that we've seen? This may be new for her. (I've just finished all four seasons of "Spiral" on Netflix. If you've seen it, tell me, does Milady remind you of Josephine?)

Speaking of costumes, I've not been pleased with the women's costumes, at least. Queen Anne's gowns don't just seem generically Olde Times sumptuous, which I could live with if they're not going to try for 17th century semi-accuracy; they, especially along with her hairdo, seem pretty specifically 18th century, which is just wrong. Gaston was much the same way; I thought he looked like he belonged at Versailles or fending off revolutionaries. And Milady, like I said, looks like a cartoon character. The men are better. Louis' dangly earring should be a character in itself. I hadn't noticed that The Boyz had whole new costumes, just noticing the familiar leather...epaulettes? Those leather guards they wear on one shoulder, presumably their shooting shoulder. I do think Athos only owns the one shirt, the blue one. I was kind of amused to see him lolling around, post coitus, with Sylvie wearing only the shirt and no pants--it made him look kind of silly and vulnerable at the same time more real than if he was lolling around in leather pants and no shirt, which is what you usually see on TV. I also noted he had changed out of his leathers (and into that same shirt, though I think that was maybe coincidental) to tend to Sylvie's wounds. That said...something. Something gentle and humble, but I'm not sure what. 

I also noticed early on that Treville, when he was sitting with the ailing king, called him "Louis." Not "Your Majesty," which he did a second earlier, but simply "Louis." And King Louis XIII didn't chastise him at all. There have been all kinds of indications of intimacy this season--"Louis," the blue shirt, Constance plucking straw out of D'Artagnon's hair after he finished grooming his horse, D'Artagnon and Porthos' confessional chat in the abandoned farmhouse.... It's added some poignancy and depth to the show that we haven't had before. Or really needed, if I'm being honest--I've been content with it being a not-too-smart swashbuckler, though I supposed an honestly-earned deepth is better. 

I like that we're getting a little more of everybody's back stories this season, or are being reminded of the back stories already given. D'Artagnon still has family in Gascony! He's from a farm! The bad guys burned it down! Aramis grew up in a brothel! I also like that they're doling it out in kind of small doses. 

I'm trying to figure out where we go from here. They wouldn't have brought Milady back as a state-sponsored assassin unless they planned on her killing somebody. Marchaux? Gaston? Surely they're leaving Grimaud for Athos. I know! There's some kind of Mexican standoff where Grimaud kills Milady and Athos kills Grimaud, thus getting her out of his system for good. (She's dead, won't pop back up in his life, but he honorably avenged her so that lifts a burden off his shoulders.) It probably also ends with Constance pregnant, just because that seems to be what they've been telegraphing all season. 

[Llywela]

41 minutes ago, DCWash said:

 just noticing the familiar leather...epaulettes? Those leather guards they wear on one shoulder, presumably their shooting shoulder. I do think Athos only owns the one shirt, the blue one.

No, no. He has a black shirt as well. Unless the one I see as black is the same one you see as blue. And we've seen him in off-white, as well (they all have those off-white shirts, and they always look grubby; darker colours are definitely better in that regard!)

The guards they wear on their shoulders are called pauldrons, they are what mark them out as Musketeers, with the fleur-de-lis design. They have definitely got new ones this season, with pretty blue piping that they didn't have before. And Treville as First Minister still wears Musketeer blue, where Richelieu and Rochefort tended toward black and red, as did Feron. King Louis and Queen Anne also tend to wear a lot of blue, Anne especially, which makes for interesting colour-coding given the alignment of blue with the Musketeers. Good guys wear blue on this show!

Let's face it, period-accurate costuming has never been a feature of this show. At least the women are mostly allowed to cover their breasts this season.

[catrice2]

10 hours ago, DCWash said:

I'm sorry, but I just can't. STAND. Milady, either as a character (her role in the plots, etc.) or for herself. Did we really need her to return, with her Snowwhite's Stepmother outfits and all? Though it was interesting to see how quickly Athos went from tenderly hugging her to grasping her neck. That, more than Athos' actions for Sylvie on the scaffold, should have told her all she needed to know. She's never had a rival for Athos' affections, has she? At least one that we've seen? This may be new for her. (I've just finished all four seasons of "Spiral" on Netflix. If you've seen it, tell me, does Milady remind you of Josephine?)

Speaking of costumes, I've not been pleased with the women's costumes, at least. Queen Anne's gowns don't just seem generically Olde Times sumptuous, which I could live with if they're not going to try for 17th century semi-accuracy; they, especially along with her hairdo, seem pretty specifically 18th century, which is just wrong. Gaston was much the same way; I thought he looked like he belonged at Versailles or fending off revolutionaries. And Milady, like I said, looks like a cartoon character. The men are better. Louis' dangly earring should be a character in itself. I hadn't noticed that The Boyz had whole new costumes, just noticing the familiar leather...epaulettes? Those leather guards they wear on one shoulder, presumably their shooting shoulder. I do think Athos only owns the one shirt, the blue one. I was kind of amused to see him lolling around, post coitus, with Sylvie wearing only the shirt and no pants--it made him look kind of silly and vulnerable at the same time more real than if he was lolling around in leather pants and no shirt, which is what you usually see on TV. I also noted he had changed out of his leathers (and into that same shirt, though I think that was maybe coincidental) to tend to Sylvie's wounds. That said...something. Something gentle and humble, but I'm not sure what. 

I also noticed early on that Treville, when he was sitting with the ailing king, called him "Louis." Not "Your Majesty," which he did a second earlier, but simply "Louis." And King Louis XIII didn't chastise him at all. There have been all kinds of indications of intimacy this season--"Louis," the blue shirt, Constance plucking straw out of D'Artagnon's hair after he finished grooming his horse, D'Artagnon and Porthos' confessional chat in the abandoned farmhouse.... It's added some poignancy and depth to the show that we haven't had before. Or really needed, if I'm being honest--I've been content with it being a not-too-smart swashbuckler, though I supposed an honestly-earned deepth is better. 

I like that we're getting a little more of everybody's back stories this season, or are being reminded of the back stories already given. D'Artagnon still has family in Gascony! He's from a farm! The bad guys burned it down! Aramis grew up in a brothel! I also like that they're doling it out in kind of small doses. 

I'm trying to figure out where we go from here. They wouldn't have brought Milady back as a state-sponsored assassin unless they planned on her killing somebody. Marchaux? Gaston? Surely they're leaving Grimaud for Athos. I know! There's some kind of Mexican standoff where Grimaud kills Milady and Athos kills Grimaud, thus getting her out of his system for good. (She's dead, won't pop back up in his life, but he honorably avenged her so that lifts a burden off his shoulders.) It probably also ends with Constance pregnant, just because that seems to be what they've been telegraphing all season. 

I did not hate Milady, but I never understood how fans thought that they could write anything that would be compelling or romantic about two people who tried to kill each other...frequently involving other people in on their plots.  I wrote in a different thread that you have to remember she tried to get one of his friends to kill him, held a knife to Constance's throat, stood by and watched Treville get shot.  All of this happened after her betrayal of him when he tried to have her hanged.  I know they tried to redeem her by saying the brother wanted her, but she had lied to him about who she was before that even happened..and I think that was what really made him distrust her.  

I'm not going to say I was thrilled about everything that happened in Season 3, but even if the actress had been available I don't think having Athos end up with Milady in the end was in the cards. Her actions had affected too many members of the team and it would have gone against the "all for one." 

I enjoyed the series and hate to see it go. Season 3 is not as bad as many people are saying it is.

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, catrice2 said:

I enjoyed the series and hate to see it go. Season 3 is not as bad as many people are saying it is.

I know, I'm really enjoying it, especially this second half of the season. There have been a couple of weaker episodes, especially early on, but every show has those. The show is what it is, light-hearted swashbuckling family entertainment, and always delivers on that premise. I'm really going to miss it!

[Llywela]

The Musketeers got a raw deal from the BBC at the end there. They deserved better

[DCWash]

Treville! TREVIIIIIILLE!!!!

I weep....

Otherwise, it was a good episode. (And I don't really mean "otherwise." His death made dramatic sense, he got to go out in a blaze of glory, and, hey, at this being episode 9 of the last 10-episode season, he had a good run.) It was interesting how Treville trusted Porthos, as opposed to the others, with the biggest, most delicate stuff. I'm not surprised he didn't hand anything over to Aramis, but I'd have thought he would have sent Athos, a fellow nobleman, to deal one-on-one with Lorraine and Gaston. Of course, Porthos was the closest musketeer body at hand when Treville needed to hand off the kinglet before his last scene, so gentlemanly manners had nothing to do with it, but still. In previous seasons, you could tell that they kind of rotated scripts so each character had "his" episode; I haven't noticed it that much this season--the feel better integrated--but at the same time I don't think Porthos has had as much of a chance to shine as the others have, so maybe they saved his turn for last.

I was amazed Louis died so quickly, not just at the very beginning of the episode but immediately after vigorous fencing instead of after the slow fade you're used to seeing with TB. Granted, we saw him sick last week. I'm just surprised he wasn't STILL sick. I did get tickled at how many dead scenes Ryan Gage had to play. Not a bad way to earn an episode's pay, just lying there with your eyes closed!

I had really hoped all the shenanigans with young Louis (who looks SO much nicer without that wig!) would involve Sylvie and Constance fighting off bad guys with their swords and guns. I mean, we know they can do it, or at least can hold their own until the professionals arrive. Kind of sad and irksome that all they did, really, was cluck around like hens with a chick. 

Funny how D'Artagnon can fight so well immediately after being stabbed, twice, in the shoulder/back by a long sword, but Marchaux was left a stumbling wreck by a big punch in the belly in that first fight. I can kind of excuse them letting Marchaux and Grimaud escape because I can never tell who's who in those big fights, so it may not be completely fair for me to expect them to keep track of who's who and where, either, especially as the bullets are flying at their heads. Speaking of which, have you noticed how much more gunfire there is in the fight scenes this year? That may be part of what appears to be a bigger budget: surely everything involved with staging gunfire costs more than staging guys with swords, what with the cost of the equipment and extra safety measures and all. I read where the show runners said the fights would be bigger and better this year because everybody's been together for three years and is comfortable with each other and better coordinated than at the first. They meant both the characters--though I guess they'd be at least seven years for them--as well as the actors, who are so much more practiced at stage combat, especially state combat with each other, than they were when they started. You can really see that on screen. 

My question now is, what do Grimaud and Marchaux want or expect to get without the Duke of Lorraine's armies to back them up, and Gaston in jail? Marchaux, more than Grimaud, has always seemed a little unhinged, so I can kind of see him going for just bloody chaos, along the lines of, "If I'm going down, I'm taking all of you [including the citizenry of Paris] down with me!" Marchaux, less so. The dispute with the musketeers, as opposed to anybody else having to do with the royal administration, is obviously personal, for both of them, which may be enough to carry the last episode, but wouldn't it be better if The Future of France was at stake? I just don't see how it could be at this point, though. Even if they capture young Louis, what could they possibly expect in return? There hasn't been any mention of "the nobility" being willing to follow them that far. That said, who's funding Grimaud? Didn't they say he was the one paying for Lorraine's army? I can't imagine him getting that kind of money except from a foreign power, but the writers haven't suggested that, have they?

Apropos of very little, did you notice how Marchaux couldn't even get the erstwhile Red Guard's attention when he wanted them to join him in looking for child Louis? Compare that to the respect Treville commanded. And how drunk and ill-disciplined the the Red Guards were? Compare that to...well, maybe you'd better NOT compare that to the musketeers!

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, DCWash said:

I was amazed Louis died so quickly, not just at the very beginning of the episode but immediately after vigorous fencing instead of after the slow fade you're used to seeing with TB. Granted, we saw him sick last week. I'm just surprised he wasn't STILL sick.

He was still sick. I expected the collapse as soon as I saw him up and about, full of manic energy but with a telling flush to his cheeks. Bearing in mind that all I know comes from books and TV, but my understanding is that TB often sees a final rally before the end (albeit not usually quite so fast or dramatic as we saw here). I've read many tales of loved ones filled with hope by that sudden improvement only to have their hope dashed by the final collapse not long after, so recognised Louis' rally for what it was. Wasn't expecting it right at the start of the episode - but what a powerful narrative choice, to take him out so early and plunge the final two episodes head first into the ensuing drama.

And then Treville! Damn, both of them in one episode!

Was that the shortest regency ever? All the action seemed to take place in a single day. I know Constance and Sylvie put Little Louis down for a nap, but it didn't seem to get dark at all through the episode, so I'm guessing it was all one day - one very action-packed day!

Poor Little Louis - his dad dies, he gets dragged around from pillar to post by a bunch of strangers all day, and then he gets dropped into the middle of a raging gun battle! He's only six - the kid should be traumatised for life!

I noticed how careful everyone was to avoid mentioning the fact that the new king is in fact the son of a Musketeer (himself the son of a prostitute!) - but hey, despite everything, they should all be thankful that Aramis and Anne seduced one another that night, else Gaston would be the king right now! And how much would everyone hate that!

There was a lot of interesting stuff going on in the episode about trust (and lack thereof) and disclosure (and lack thereof). Treville and Aramis never had the chance to make up after their epic slanging match at the end of last episode - I suspect the events of last episode, as much as anything else, played into both the king's decision to revoke Anne's regency and Treville's determination not to involve Aramis in the protection of the new little king. On the one hand, that decision makes perfect sense - both Anne and Aramis were thinking like parents throughout, as Treville knew they would, seeing only the immediate situation, wanting only to watch over the child (they were also, rather tellingly, thinking like a couple, which they really shouldn't, but can't seem to help themselves). Whereas Treville had to think like a politician, both eyes firmly fixed on the big picture and the long game, and he had to act accordingly. He did what he had to do to try to protect everyone, and prevent civil war. He was a hero throughout and went out in a blaze of glory. But on the other hand, it was painful to see everyone so fragmented, so at odds, and can't help wondering if things might have been different if they'd all managed to trust one another from the start, if they'd all been in the loop, acting on a plan that was known by all. If Anne had known Treville's plan and consented to it, she wouldn't have felt she'd had her son stolen, wouldn't have been so desperate to find him, and he therefore wouldn't have been brought out of hiding, wouldn't have been captured - and Treville might not have died.

I like the messiness of it, though - imperfect characters acting according to their individual motivations and ambitions and available information, our heroes occasionally, inadvertently working against one another even with the best of intentions. That feels very real.

Quote

Gaston in jail?

I thought Gaston escaped at the end there? It was all very confusing in that final battle, but although Porthos was ordered to arrest Gaston, Grimaud arrived with D'Artagnan and the little king moments later, then all hell broke out, Gaston made a break for it, and Porthos ended up riding away with Little Louis instead. I think Gaston is still out in the wind.

But how much of a threat is Gaston now? He was reliant on his alliance with the Duke of Lorraine, which is now defunct. He could team up with Grimaud again, but I can't see Grimaud being prepared to trust him again, even as a means to an end - the whole season for Grimaud has been one long exercise in learning just how little the nobility will ever think of him, no matter what he does for them, they will always see him as a servant, a soldier, and expendable as such. With a hired army, minus Lorraine's men, he might have another stab at putting Gaston on the throne as his puppet - but would it really be worth his while? I'm really not sure where the story goes from here - and that's exciting, with the finale still to come!

Quote

who's funding Grimaud? Didn't they say he was the one paying for Lorraine's army? I can't imagine him getting that kind of money except from a foreign power, but the writers haven't suggested that, have they?

Yeah, I wondered about that, too. I'm assuming Grimaud has control of the money Feron got from the Dutch financier, the loan he passed off as Louis wanting to buy an expensive necklace for Anne (yeah, as if) - but I thought it was clear that money wasn't enough for their purposes, hence the bank raid, which was foiled, so they never got the full amount of money they wanted, so how come Grimaud is able to pay for everything? Maybe they wanted more money when they thought they would have to buy an army, but with Lorraine's army on board the funds they had turned out to be enough? I don't know.

Edited July 31, 2016 by Llywela

[atomationage]

9 hours ago, Llywela said:

Poor Little Louis - his dad dies, he gets dragged around from pillar to post by a bunch of strangers all day, and then he gets dropped into the middle of a raging gun battle! He's only six - the kid should be traumatised for life!

I think that part is the most historical that they got in this series.  That was what actually happened during the Fronde.   It's why Louis insisted on order and the respect he felt he deserved later on in life, while his cousin Charles II was rolling around England having a great time with all and sundry for 25 years. 

[DCWash]

Just a note: I don't know if the BBC is advertising it, but the finale is TONIGHT, not Saturday! Somebody should put that on the Episode 10 page, I guess, but I'm afraid of spoilers.

[Athena]

Bumping this up as it aired on BBC today. 

[Llywela]

AHHHHH!

And that's a wrap. I have loved this show so much. Yes, it can be clunky and cliched and all the rest of it, but I've never really cared, because it was never trying to be a serious drama, it only ever aspired to be light-hearted swashbuckling fun, and it delivers on that premise in spades - while also being capable of being both deadly serious and heart-stoppingly dramatic when it wants to be.

This finale kind of epitomises all of that, starting out with grief and high drama before tying up all the loose ends and then leaving us with smiles on our faces. What more could we ask?

Well, there are gaps and holes in the narrative, of course. We must fill those in for ourselves, I suppose. But overall I am satisfied. My only real regret is that Porthos's story with Elodie was so rushed. Better, perhaps, to have brought her to Paris sooner and integrated her more with the main cast, let the relationship build over several episodes instead of cramming it into one-and-a-half. I can see, though, why they wouldn't want to have any more characters cluttering up the centra narrative, though - these last few episodes have been frenetic enough as it was. And Howard Charles did sell the relationship regardless - I just loved how Porthos's first reaction on seeing Elodie was "let me cwtch the baby!" His journey through the seasons has been about finding his place in the world and both Elodie and his promotion to general are tied in with that theme. Neither he nor Elodie needed more time to know that they could find a place in the world together, could build a family and life together. The baby isn't Porthos's, but he will love her every bit as much as Louis loved the child he knew wasn't his.

Kind of sad, though, that no sooner have Porthos and Elodie decided to build a life together than he gets sent back to the front - they can marry, but they go into that marriage as virtual strangers with no opportunity to get to know one another properly. Yeah, I wish they'd had more episodes together. Elodie could have returned to Paris with the Musketeers after her intro, rather than trying to raise her child in the woods - she'd have fitted in fine at Sylvie's refugee settlement.

Very amused that after two full seasons of trying to keep Aramis and Anne apart, Athos here was like, "Okay fine. Fine, I give in. I admit it. I ship it. Go be together!" I think in part because learning of Sylvie's pregnancy means that for the first time he has sudden, painful insight into how hard it has been for Aramis to be denied his child - and also because he realised, long before either Anne or Aramis did, that the rules have changed now that Louis is gone. As queen consort, it was treason for Anne to take a lover (because of exactly what has come about: producing a cuckoo in the nest) - but as a widow and regent, she can do pretty much as she likes, so long as she is discreet (and, you know, avoids tell-tale pregnancies...)

Not that snogging him right out in the open in the middle of the garden could be classed as discreet by anyone's standards, but we'll let her have that one. He did look good in the blue suit.

So Aramis in this universe is Mazarin, or takes the place of Mazarin. I suppose, of the four Musketeers, Aramis is the one who has dabbled in politics the most, albeit primarily out of concern for Anne and their son rather than out of actual interest in politics, whereas Athos didn't even want the responsibility of being captain, so Aramis is probably a better choice for the job, really speaking - but then again, he is also the most rebellious and insubordinate of all the Musketeers, which could make his political career interesting, to say the least! And it is worth pointing out that where Feron and Gaston and Grimaud and the rest of them wanted to get their hands on the infant king so that they could control him and gain power for themselves, and where other men might perhaps be ruffled with pride at having fathered a king, Aramis wants only to be a dad to his son and sees the fact that the child is king as a hindrance rather than something to be used for his own ends. I think his happy ending is as bittersweet as Porthos's, really, because he still can't acknowledge his child, and his longing to be a father has been part of his character since season one.

Constance and D'Artagnan's story arc kind of reached its conclusion last season, really, so they've been much less involved in ongoing plot this season - which in a sense has benefitted them, as both have been free to develop naturally and organically in the background. D'Artagnan's story throughout the show has been about maturation, the impetuous youth we first met growing up into a loving husband and leader of men. This entire season has demonstrated loud and clear, without making a huge fuss about it, just how much D'Artagnan has grown up - he thoroughly deserves his promotion (and I'm kind of glad that this D'Artagnan seems unlikely to ever become as cynical and jaded as his book counterpart!) And Constance too has come a long way since we first met her, from respectable merchant's wife to hardened soldier's wife, herself a veteran of many battles, the heart and soul of the garrison. She may be reluctant to have children of her own, but she has been both sergeant and mother to the cadets under her wing, and that was clearly demonstrated here.

For Athos, meanwhile, his story through the seasons has been about letting go of the past, forgiving himself, and learning to live again, which is why his happy ending had to be with someone new, rather than Milady. With Sylvie he has finally allowed himself to heal and look forward, they can have a truly fresh start, unfettered by any baggage (and I fully expect their child to be named Raoul, the name of Book!Athos's son).

Milady, then, is the only one not to end the show paired off for a happy ending, but while in one sense it's a shame for her that she hasn't been able to escape her violent past the way Athos has, in another sense that's entirely in keeping with her story all along. Milady is who she is. She came back to Paris looking for Athos only because her new life in England had gone sour. She hasn't changed, she hasn't moved forward - and until she does, she can't have that happy ending.

It strikes me that although all the heroes got happy endings and all the loose ends got tied up, it was a wonderfully final finale, I'm also left with a sense of there being much more story still to tell, in future seasons that won't be filmed and will exist only in our imaginations. How well will Aramis take to his new role as First Minister - and will his relationship with the queen strengthen or weaken his position? How would he react if he knew Anne had taken Milady on as her own personal assassin? How would Athos react if he learned that the queen had taken Milady on as her personal assassin? Will Athos truly be content to live a quiet life in the country - and if he finds himself drawn back to Paris for whatever reason, how would he feel about it? Will D'Artagnan and Constance ever have a conversation about his desire for children versus her resolve not to have any? Will Porthos and Elodie ever get to live together as man and wife - and how will they get along if they do, given how little they know one another? Will the Fronde happen in this universe - and if so, how might it play out, given how differently this universe is set-up?

Yeah, for a finale that rounds everything off so nicely and happily, there are just enough questions still outstanding for us to be able to imagine many more adventures for our heroes, their whole lives ahead of them still. I like that.

I'm going to miss this show!

Edited August 2, 2016 by Llywela

[Llywela]

Sorry for double post, but apparently no one else has anything to say and I've been thinking about this and - guys, I would totes watch a fourth season set a couple of years later again, at a time when Captain D'Artagnan has settled into his new role and has trained a new generation of Musketeers to keep the peace in Paris - a new generation of Musketeers who can't quite get over the informality of his close friendship with Minister Aramis, a powerful man who has the ear of the Queen (and also, rumour has it, a place in her bed - but rumour would also have it that they are secretly married, and who knows what to believe in these troubled times?). Meanwhile on the border, General Porthos du Vallon is winning glory left, right and centre, but when he gets wind of a sinister new threat to the nation's stability, he decides to take the news to Paris himself, only too glad for an opportunity to see his wife and (step)daughter, who have made a home at the rebuilt garrison (which now has family quarters for officers; Constance and D'Artagnan, still childless, the one bone of contention between them, have the other suite). At the other end of the country entirely, Athos has buried himself in a rural idyll with Sylvie and their son, but they can't hide from the ugly realities of the world forever and nor would forward-thinking Sylvie want to, and so Athos finds himself drawn back to Paris and the life - and ex-wife - he thought he'd left behind. So the four friends are reunited, but given how much has changed and with distractions both personal and political on all sides, can they re-discover their old comradeship and prevent the nation from sliding into anarchy and civil war...?

Yep, I would definitely watch that - still plenty of story that could be told! A pox on whoever decided to cancel!

[DCWash]

Quote

Sorry for double post, but apparently no one else has anything to say 

I do, but having just watched it last night, I'm still gathering my thoughts. It doesn't help that I have to take my GREs tomorrow after being out of school for almost 30 years. Right now, my struggle with basic math concepts like how to add square roots is overwhelming my Musketeer love.

[DCWash]

Digital Spy has run several articles lately about the end run of the series. This one has some comments from the writer of the last episode that blew me away! First of all, Tom Burke, who played Athos, seemed to have a lot to do with the final script. But mainly, it seems they cut some rather pertinent stuff from one of the last episodes that, I think, would have gone a long way towards making the whole Grimaud story arc make a lot more sense. (Not that it was terrible, mind you, just that by the end I was wondering more and more about his issues, and if they hadn't made these cuts, maybe I wouldn't have wondered.)

The Musketeers' final ever episode: Here's why the show's writers decided not to kill off the foursome

[atomationage]

12 hours ago, Llywela said:

Sorry for double post, but apparently no one else has anything to say

I think the discussion moved to an all episode thread after the show originally aired.  

[justmehere]

From the above article, this is bittersweet:

"We've also been really pleased with the response from America. This year, the show didn't go out on BBC America - it went on Hulu and the reaction we're told from Hulu directly is that it's been their most popular British show.

"They even said that if they could've had another two seasons, they'd have taken them, which is a bit like... 'I wish we'd known that a while ago!'

"But they've just been blown away by its performance, which is really lovely to hear, and it feels like actually it's reached a different audience through Hulu, as opposed to being on the BBC America platform."

Sigh. At least one more season would have been wonderful.

[millennium]

On 8/3/2016 at 5:43 PM, DCWash said:

Digital Spy has run several articles lately about the end run of the series. This one has some comments from the writer of the last episode that blew me away! First of all, Tom Burke, who played Athos, seemed to have a lot to do with the final script. But mainly, it seems they cut some rather pertinent stuff from one of the last episodes that, I think, would have gone a long way towards making the whole Grimaud story arc make a lot more sense. (Not that it was terrible, mind you, just that by the end I was wondering more and more about his issues, and if they hadn't made these cuts, maybe I wouldn't have wondered.)

The Musketeers' final ever episode: Here's why the show's writers decided not to kill off the foursome

Thank you for the link.   I was extremely disappointed in the third series largely because of Maimie McCoy's absence.

I never bought Sylvie as a believable character.   She had absolutely no chemistry with Athos.  Her presence in each episode always felt contrived, like the writers were trying too hard to sell her to the audience.   Add to that, the actress's performance was utterly forgettable.   Every week I was like, "Oh no, not her again."

Domesticating and dividing the Musketeers at the end was also a big mistake, IMHO.  Virtually the whole final episode sucked, with the exception of Milady killing rat-face Gaston.   Oh well.   At least they all didn't become lumberjacks.

[DCWash]

Quote

I never bought Sylvie as a believable character.   She had absolutely no chemistry with Athos.  Her presence in each episode always felt contrived, like the writers were trying too hard to sell her to the audience.   Add to that, the actress's performance was utterly forgettable.   Every week I was like, "Oh no, not her again."

See, I'm almost the exact opposite. I wan't wild about Sylvie, and I never understood why Athos would fall for her (except for maybe because she plays along with his rape fantasies!), but I liked the effects of her presence, I guess you'd say, so, sooooo much better than that of Milady. I think they went as far as they could go with the Milady/Athos relationship (or non-relationship...) and her hanging around and assassinating people in the background would just muddle things.

Funnily enough, some of the "domestication" that you talked about followed the fanfiction that's in my head. I imagined Porthos with a young daughter--like, five or six years old--who he didn't know existed until her mother popped her clogs and left the child to him. When he delivered that baby, I thought, "Well, there you go!" Marriage to the mother wasn't in my scenario, but makes sense. 

[writersblock51]

Is discussion on this episode done here or in the All Episode thread?

 

I've watched the finale a few times and felt that it could have used another 20 minutes or so to flesh out some parts that felt rushed:

- Porthos & Elodie's reunion - sweet but simply rushed.  Did they actually get married?  I think so?

- some explanation as how Grimaud can be stabbed in the gut & shoulder yet get up and walk around Paris.  He's been shot, stabbed multiple times but still walks around nearly unseen.  Completely implausible...

- some kind of moment between D'Artagnan and Constance about having a family or not - especially after she almost died & he was devastated.  The family-issue was alluded to during the season but then dropped entirely.  Seems odd to have it then not.  And the 3 other musketeers are fathers (or will be soon)

- a bit more insight into how many people survived the bombing of the tavern and the garrison.  It looked like only the 4 musketeers survived the tavern's bombing... but there were more people the next day. Plus there were other guards at the cathedral.  Just seemed a bit clunky there...

 

Overall, I enjoyed it a lot and think it was a fitting end on nearly all accounts.  Only Milady seemed to have a sour ending and I realize the actress's availability may have been a reason.   That being said, I also would have loved to see what they could do with a 4th season.  I've resorted to checking out some fanfic to see what other creative minds came up with.

[writersblock51]

Interesting read - it's too bad that the series ended when there may have been interest by many to keep it going for another season.  I'm in the US and didn't have to deal with the BBC's scheduling decisions - it's hard to shake the sense that the decision was made long before the scripts were finished that this would be the last and that the BBC wasn't going to try hard to promote it.

If the showrunners knew that there was a chance that it would have been picked up by HULU before the final scripts were written, we can only speculate on what would have been done differently this season.

Overall, I think the 3rd and final season had a lot of high points.  I have purchased the first 2 seasons and will happily buy the 3rd once it's available.  Each season has its strengths and weaknesses, IMO, much like every series I've watched.  Of the issues I had with Season 3, none of them are enough to turn me away from watching and enjoying it.