The Crowded Room - General Discussion

[peachmangosteen]

2 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I’m still trying to figure out if Annabelle was an alter or real. 

2 hours ago, AstridM said:

She was an alter, just like the others.

I guess you just misread Annabelle as Ariana.

[AstridM]

2 minutes ago, Hook75 said:

I have 2 theories about Adam. He either was "put to sleep" ala Yitzak in this episode because there was no more use to him OR Adam grew up to become Ariana so Adam=Ariana. 

I'm also wondering why Adam exists pre-Marlin. I'm sticking with my previous theory that he started as imaginary friend and turned into Danny's first alter. 

Tom did a great job this episode. 

Yes, Adam started as a normal imaginary friend (very common for young kids who don’t have siblings), and after the rapes began, Danny’s psyche became shattered and Adam became a true alter with more to follow. 

Just now, peachmangosteen said:

I guess you just misread Annabelle as Ariana.

Oh, I guess I did. Duh! 🤣

[Snazzy Daisy]

Wow, we have to wait 7 episodes for this show to really own up to its DID storyline. Very frustrating!

Based on all the breadcrumbs, intelligent viewers (with or without the knowledge of its source material) have realized about Danny’s condition since the first episode.

Jack prefers Danny to be sent to prison to keep the alters alive. How foolish of him to send Yitzak to the “undesirables” world. Danny is going to need Yitzak and his MO to survive imprisonment.

[iMonrey]

9 hours ago, Snazzy Daisy said:

ack prefers Danny to be sent to prison to keep the alters alive. How foolish of him to send Yitzak to the “undesirables” world. Danny is going to need Yitzak and his MO to survive imprisonment.

Yeah, it was only Yitzak who saved Danny from getting his ass kicked. But I suppose Jack is arrogant enough to think they can do without him. I wonder if any of the alters can come back once they've been banished to the basement or whatever that's supposed to be. And why Jack is the strongest of the personalities and can determine who goes and who stays.

Quote

I have 2 theories about Adam. He either was "put to sleep" ala Yitzak in this episode because there was no more use to him OR Adam grew up to become Ariana so Adam=Ariana. 

I'm also wondering why Adam exists pre-Marlin. I'm sticking with my previous theory that he started as imaginary friend and turned into Danny's first alter. 

Whatever's going on with Adam, it's clear the show is being deliberately cagey about it. They must have some big reveal planned for this. There was no mention of Adam by any of the alters nor was he in the barn with them.

[gesundheit]

This show is a real trudge to get through. I'd been sticking with it because I thought at least we'd have the fun of getting to re-watch some of the early-episode scenes play out with only Danny there, but instead we're having these tedious scenes inside his psyche.

On 7/4/2023 at 9:37 AM, peachmangosteen said:

This show is giving me One Life to Live vibes. There are a lot of similarities to Jessica's DID. 

Ha! I was literally just thinking I've seen soaps do it better -- like when Victoria Lord and all her alters had the battles for her soul inside her psyche, they were all still played by her. And somehow daytime soaps got way more right about DID than this big-budget prestige project? This show can't decide whether Danny's "asleep" when the alters are out to play or they're all just friends of his he's regularly interacting with. The prior would align with most real-world cases of DID. The latter is only interesting if it's fun dramatically, and as of now if we don't even get to see what that looked like to outsiders, it's just boring.

On 7/7/2023 at 6:26 PM, peachmangosteen said:

I should have read up on what this show was based on before watching so I probably wouldn't have watched it lol.

That wouldn't have helped much either since it resembles the real case in almost zero ways. Just about the only similarity is that he has DID and that one of his (alleged) alters is a queer black woman. And yes, there's the abusive stepfather, but there's always an abusive stepfather.

This should've just been a movie, everything feels so stretched out. I can't believe there are still three more hours of it.

Edited July 9, 2023 by gesundheit

[peachmangosteen]

5 hours ago, gesundheit said:

I can't believe there are still three more hours of it.

WHAT?! I assumed next week was the finale! That is way too many more episodes lol.

I'm with you, I wanted to see Tom Holland playing out the scenes we've already seen where Danny was actually just talking to himself or being someone else in front of others. I guess that could still come.

[AstridM]

6 hours ago, gesundheit said:

This show can't decide whether Danny's "asleep" when the alters are out to play or they're all just friends of his he's regularly interacting with.

Danny has been “asleep” up until the last couple episodes. Now that he’s working with Rya in a therapeutic process, she’s made him aware of the alters and they’re trying to integrate them with Danny. That’s why we now see him interacting directly with the alters. 

[gesundheit]

2 hours ago, AstridM said:

Danny has been “asleep” up until the last couple episodes. Now that he’s working with Rya in a therapeutic process, she’s made him aware of the alters and they’re trying to integrate them with Danny. That’s why we now see him interacting directly with the alters. 

He's been interacting with the alters since the beginning of this series. He's just been interacting with them externally, thinking they are real people. Now he's interacting with them internally, discovering that they are not real. Those first few episodes don't make any sense if he's always "asleep" when alters are out. He had years-long friendships with these people!

[AstridM]

8 minutes ago, gesundheit said:

He's been interacting with the alters since the beginning of this series. He's just been interacting with them externally, thinking they are real people. Now he's interacting with them internally, discovering that they are not real. Those first few episodes don't make any sense if he's always "asleep" when alters are out. He had years-long friendships with these people!

Right - now he’s finally aware that they’re just parts of him, not different people. 

[gesundheit]

1 minute ago, AstridM said:

Right - now he’s finally aware that they’re just parts of him, not different people. 

Yes, which is inconsistent with "he falls asleep every time they're out" since they've clearly been out at times he very much wasn't "asleep" because he was out in the world interacting with them frequently and remembering that time (while losing other time when the alters were "alone"). The show was obviously trying to take some dramatic license with how he engaged with them pre-treatment, but it just doesn't track. People with DID aren't just going out for drinks with a bunch of their alters, but if they want to create a fictional version of it where that does happen, they should be clear about how it works in-show. If they're going to fake things for creative license, they could go all out with the framing, but instead we get "well, they were all his imaginary friends for years until he was arrested, at which point he never saw them anymore except when they took over and he was asleep, even though they all claim he's always been asleep whenever another one took over despite his having been awake and present for events with these alters on a regular basis who he can now only talk to inside his psyche instead of outside of it." If they're going to be that muddled about the "rules," it should at least be fascinating to watch, yet it's somehow just inconsistent and boring. 

 

[iMonrey]

14 hours ago, gesundheit said:

Those first few episodes don't make any sense if he's always "asleep" when alters are out. He had years-long friendships with these people!

I wonder if maybe they were real at one point, like Johnny and Mike, and he eventually just "adopted" them as personalities.

[gesundheit]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I wonder if maybe they were real at one point, like Johnny and Mike, and he eventually just "adopted" them as personalities.

Could be -- it's at least highly likely they're all "inspired" by someone he at least came across once. That's how DID folks tend to absorb these details and pieces of knowledge (and accents!) that couldn't possibly come from their own background. (Not that this show seems to be very interested in real DID!)

[peachmangosteen]

He still won't accept Adam isn't real. GAH!

[iMonrey]

Yeah, it's really annoying the fuck out of me that they keep dancing around this whole Adam thing. He knows now there are "alters." He's aware of them. Why does Rya clam up when he speaks of Adam as though Adam were real? That makes zero sense. At this point it almost has to be that Adam was in fact real and Rya thinks he's not ready to deal with his death or something. But earlier scenes with Adam when they were kids do not add up.

It didn't even occur to me before this episode that he had sex with a man as Ariana. And apparently as Johnny too. I did like seeing the "alternate" versions of earlier scenes where he's himself rather than the alter actor. 

[Snazzy Daisy]

It is Jonny who takes that binder clip in the infirmary. But when he says "Just in case...", is it Jonny or Danny?

We have seen Sasha Lane's Ariana in earlier episodes. She is annoyingly exhausting.

Then we get to meet Tom Holland's Ariana in Reunion. I am more drawn to this Ariana. It will be interesting if she appears in court, instead of Jonny.

The scene between Jerome/Danny/Ariana is beautifully written. It's intimate and vulnerable.

[AstridM]

6 minutes ago, Snazzy Daisy said:

The scene between Jerome/Danny/Ariana is beautifully written. It's intimate and vulnerable.

All of their scenes were so genuinely touching. So well done.

[peachmangosteen]

9 hours ago, Snazzy Daisy said:

It is Jonny who takes that binder clip in the infirmary. But when he says "Just in case...", is it Jonny or Danny?

Seemed like Danny to me.

[Affogato]

It seems possible that they should have reconsidered frontloading this show with multiple actors to keep us in suspense about who is real. Holland is doing a good job of differentiating the alters we've seen and he is very good at body language. I was also impressed by his transformation to Yitzhak, and I assume his bullies were, too. Piecing together the cast of characters from his behavior would have been interesting.

I agree that Holland's Ariana is more sympathetic. I didn't get from the actress that Ariana was the embodiment of his loneliness.

[Straycat80]

On 7/15/2023 at 8:08 AM, peachmangosteen said:

Seemed like Danny to me.

I believe it’s Jonny. He’s the only personality Danny won’t talk about (yet). I think Danny is keeping Jonny inside of him because he knows Johnny will keep him safe. That’s why he stole the file clip to make into a weapon…just in case. 

[Johnny Dollar]

In the episode where Danny goes to London and “meets” Jack, wasn’t there a scene where Rya meets with Jack and says something like “don’t you think you were a little hard on him?” It made it seem like Rya had put someone up to act as the Jack alter because this was before she realized that she could speak directly to them through Danny. 

[peachmangosteen]

On 7/16/2023 at 8:48 PM, Straycat80 said:

I believe it’s Jonny. He’s the only personality Danny won’t talk about (yet). I think Danny is keeping Jonny inside of him because he knows Johnny will keep him safe. That’s why he stole the file clip to make into a weapon…just in case. 

I read it as Danny letting Johnny out, Johnny purposefully hurting his arm, stealing the clip, and saying 'just in case.' But I thought when back in bed, Danny emerged and reiterated the 'just in case.' But I guess it maybe makes more sense if it was still Johnny. I guess Danny is going to have Johnny perform a magic trick at the trial lol.

[meira.hand]

"Adam" predates Marlin because Marlin was not the first abuser. As Rya told Candy in the bar, she suspects Martin was not her first abuser (and Candy does not deny it). Adam was the first split that as Danny said "always had his back". I suspect Danny has a predisposition for this kind of protection mechanism which started at an earlier age, so when Marlin came along, it was natural for "Adam" to take the abuse leaving Danny outside the barn. It was the continuation of the abuse and effectiveness of the "solution" that resulted in more and more splits, each to solve a particular difficulty.

I have read the book and seen the documentary series about Billy Milligan and they have done both brain scans that showed the different parts activated by the different personalities and also an amazing difference in IQ tests between genius  level to borderline "r*******" (as it was called at the time. This series chose to concentrate on psychological/emotional differences to connect with the audience but in the real case it was clear he had some actual brain abnormalities that triggered the fractures as a response mechanism at a very early age.

Edited July 21, 2023 by meira.hand

[iMonrey]

Ugh, I'm so mad at the mother. It's why I have a hard time buying into Rya's excuse for her, that she's just a victim and none of this is her fault. She made a choice. I understand Marlin got in her head but she had a choice and it was the cowardly one. 

Still, I suspect she will have a change of heart in the next episode because she seems to be Danny's only hope. Otherwise this whole story will end on a real downer note.

One more week and I can cancel Apple TV+. 

[Straycat80]

I’m mad at Candy too. She chooses the abusive husband over her son and lies in court about the abuse. A mother knows. She knew about Adam, she told Rya. And then she blamed Stan and Rya for not helping Danny. That really pissed me off. She did nothing to help her own son. 

[Snazzy Daisy]

This episode is hard to watch. I have mixed feelings about Candy. A part of me wants to sympathize with her but I also want to shove her down the stairs. It takes a lot for Danny to call her, to apologize to her and she still prefers to live in her own bubble.

Quote

Stan: Do you believe Danny was ever sexually abused? 

Candy: NO!

Rya has alluded that Marlin isn’t Candy’s first abuser. This could be Danny’s dad and why Danny had Adam as his first alter. Only Adam got to go visit their dad, never Danny. Adam was there before Marlin, before the first visit to the barn. Adam “died” when Danny was too old for Marlin.

Rya also talks about predators being good in identifying and targeting their preys. Remember that creepy teacher who touched Danny’s thigh?

Stan is so not well-prepared, it’s frustrating. He has missed a lot of opportunities by not asking the right questions.

• DA Patricia asks Rya whether Danny has been sexually abused and Rya has to say NO. Stan should have cross-examined her again and asked about Danny's first split, Adam etc.

• And when Candy finally takes the stand, he doesn’t use this chance to establish some facts about Danny’s childhood environment. No question about Danny’s dad, their marriage, other men in Danny’s life and the origin of Danny’s first imaginary friend.

• Stan doesn’t utilize Annabelle to the fullest. He should be asking her about changes in Danny’s demeanour and accent because we know Yitzak was there.

• Stan also doesn’t try to raise some doubts or to destroy Marlin’s credibility as DA’s star witness by doing a deep dive on him. Danny couldn’t be his first victim.

I understand on the time constraints and his personal struggles etc but DID cannot be his only defense strategy, right?

Will Stan put Danny on the stand and we will see Adam instead??!

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by Snazzy Daisy

[Affogato]

8 hours ago, Straycat80 said:

I’m mad at Candy too. She chooses the abusive husband over her son and lies in court about the abuse. A mother knows. She knew about Adam, she told Rya. And then she blamed Stan and Rya for not helping Danny. That really pissed me off. She did nothing to help her own son. 

A mother would not necessarily know but Candy obviously did. 

[iMonrey]

10 hours ago, Snazzy Daisy said:

And when Candy finally takes the stand, he doesn’t use this chance to establish some facts about Danny’s childhood environment. No question about Danny’s dad, their marriage, other men in Danny’s life and the origin of Danny’s first imaginary friend.

We only saw part of Candy's testimony, so maybe he did ask more than we saw. But the show is being deliberately nebulous about Adam. I assume there is going to be some big bombshell reveal in the final episode. 

[chediavolo]

I cannot for the life of me understand how a woman, can  let this happen to her child. can deny it, and can stay with the abuser. She was ready to leave, but when shit husband told her people might be looking at her funny or talk behind her back she decided to change her testimony and stay with the child rapist..I didn’t see him abusing her physically she could get out on her own and she could get help . She’s s nurse & could well afford to live on her own or to have taken Danny ages ago  & lived on their own ..It sickens me that women do this. I feel no sympathy for her. Or any woman who lets their child be raped  Knowing full well it is going on and just thinking of yourself . She is also a piece of garbage. 

[chediavolo]

I also wish they hadn’t made this Such a fictionalize version of the true story.  Much rather watch a documentary type program on the real facts of the story. Does anyone know if there’s anything showing anywhere on the actual story.? What is his mother really so uncaring? 

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, chediavolo said:

I also wish they hadn’t made this Such a fictionalize version of the true story.  Much rather watch a documentary type program on the real facts of the story. Does anyone know if there’s anything showing anywhere on the actual story.? What is his mother really so uncaring? 

The Monster Inside: the 24 faces of Billy Milligan

Netflix

It is a series. 

[iMonrey]

15 hours ago, chediavolo said:

I cannot for the life of me understand how a woman, can  let this happen to her child. can deny it, and can stay with the abuser. She was ready to leave, but when shit husband told her people might be looking at her funny or talk behind her back she decided to change her testimony and stay with the child rapist..I didn’t see him abusing her physically she could get out on her own and she could get help . She’s s nurse & could well afford to live on her own or to have taken Danny ages ago  & lived on their own

Yeah this is why it's so hard to sympathize with Candy. I understand a lot of abuse victims stay with their abuser because they have no way of supporting themselves and no family to turn to, and they don't want to wind up in a shelter, especially if they have kids. Also, abusers are good at keeping their victims isolated so they have no one to turn to. But Candy doesn't have any dependent children and has a good job. In fact I think that's her house, it's the same one she was living in with Danny before she met Marlin, although it might be a rental. She can certainly afford her own place, nurses made decent money even back then. The whole thing just makes her look pathetic. Like it's more important to her to have a man, even this one, than to help her own child. Sadly there are women who are like that.

[HerkyJerky]

Who was Danny’s unpaid debt?

[oftentimes]

Adam.

[Snazzy Daisy]

A heart-wrenching finale! 💔

Hearing Danny acknowledging what Marlin did to him, Candy’s confession about her denial - the pains are too real! 😭

In the garden scenes with Candy, Tom Holland’s micro expressions are amazing. He doesn’t need to say a word, we can still feel the pain and sense of disgust. 👏🏻

It’s time to give back, let it be…
 

[Andre LaPlume]

Just wrapped up way too easily.   Put him on the stand, claim abuse and that’s it.  (We know the abuse occurred but the jury only had Danny’s word)  No cross examination?   Why were they even concerned?

[iMonrey]

The ending felt very anticlimactic to me. Did they think the big Adam reveal was going to be some kind of bombshell? We've known Adam had to be an alter since around episode three. I do not understand why the show danced around the issue the way they did. They didn't do enough to convince me the jury would have found Danny innocent.

I watched the Netflix docuseries about Billy Milligan referenced by @Affogato above. It just left me confused about what really happened. I don't know if Billy really had multiple personalities, or whether such a thing actually exists. It's still a hotly debated topic in the psychiatric field to this day. Lots of conflicting opinions. 

Billy certainly had a tragic life, and most of the story takes place after a judge found him not guilty by reason of insanity (his case never went to a jury trial). He was bounced around from hospital to hospital and assuming he ever suffered from mental illness it only made him worse. They could easily do two or three more seasons of The Crowded Room, although I doubt Tom Holland is interested in committing to something like that given his movie career.

There were several things this show borrowed from Billy's story. Chief among them was Danny's goofy hairdo. That's exactly how Billy was wearing his hair at the time of his arrest. Also, the abuse by the stepfather in the barn was part of Billy's story. And like Danny, Billy was a prolific and talented artist who drew all the time. Interestingly, one of Billy's "alters" was named Danny. There were also alters modeled after Ariana, Jack and Yitzhak.

Overall I'm glad I watched this but it could have been trimmed down a couple episodes and I don't think they quite stuck the landing.

[Straycat80]

I was satisfied with the ending. I don’t understand why the prosecution didn’t  question Danny though. 
I’m going to watch the Billy Milligan docuseries on Netflix now. I believe in multiple personalities since I read a book called When Rabbit Howls by Truddi Chase, a true story much like Danny and Billy’s. 

[iMonrey]

14 hours ago, Straycat80 said:

I was satisfied with the ending. I don’t understand why the prosecution didn’t  question Danny though. 
I’m going to watch the Billy Milligan docuseries on Netflix now. I believe in multiple personalities since I read a book called When Rabbit Howls by Truddi Chase, a true story much like Danny and Billy’s. 

It's possible the prosecution did cross examine Danny but we just didn't see it. But given the excruciatingly slow pace of the series as a whole, the last episode felt extremely rushed.

What I found most compelling in favor of the DID diagnosis in Billy's case is that early on in the evaluation process they did a brain scan on him. The results led them to believe there was either something wrong with their machine, or there was something wrong with his brain. The results they were seeing were something they would expect from a seven year old child, not a 22 year old adult. I don't think he could fake something like that.

Obviously The Crowded Room didn't do as much of a deep dive. Danny was only ever examined or evaluated by Rya. The show more or less treated the DID diagnosis as a given rather than a questionable theory.

[Affogato]

Now that it is over, I wonder what I think of it. Danny is much more relatable and generally nicer than Billy,

Spoiler

Who called himself a sociopath and apparently ad.itted he'd killed people

but we aren't seeing all of his life and the slice we see was probably well represented.

Spoiler

Although the rapes being replaced by attempting to shoot his abuser ....

I see this as being more of a story for the 70s or 80s when people were more optimistic and less suspicious. Anyway, it ends on a high point. 

 

I thought Holland did a bang up job. I was really impressed by how much he communicated with such small facial movements. I look forward to his future work. 

 

[Glade]

That was a really sweet ending, Tom Holland was brilliant throughout this series.  Perhaps the prosecutor felt that cross-examining Danny would only help the defense's case in the end.  I'm glad this episode didn't end in full-scale preaching of 'you have to forgive no matter what,' because it is not necessary for healing to forgive your abusers or their enablers, whether they're your parents or not.

[Snazzy Daisy]

Tom Holland | Interview with Collider

 

 

[Snazzy Daisy]

Interesting!!!

The Crowded Room — Clues You Missed | Apple TV+