S01.E05: Medial Woman

[AnimeMania]

In the past after a chance encounter has deadly consequences, Dan decides to confess to Beth about his affair with Alex, while Alex’s actions against the Gallaghers only get more severe. By the end of the day Dan’s fate is already sealed, even if he doesn’t know it yet. In the present Ellen bonds with a new friend while Dan meets an old colleague for lunch and information.

Premiere Date: May 14, 2023    Paramount+    

[Spartan Girl]

Okay, so Alex did kill the grandma. Not sure how I feel about that. It feels like the show started to go with a nuanced look at Alex only to dial it right back to Psycho Bitch. Boring.

[Elizzikra]

I greatly enjoyed the panoramic view of Alex's gorgeous apartment...

[Snazzy Daisy]

Alex Forrest is STILL a psychotic b!tch in this remake.

She watched Beth drowned and closed her up in the pool. She sent a complaint letter about Dan to his boss so she could “save” him. She intentionally set Beth and Arthur's project site on fire. She may or may not be responsible for Ellen’s short disappearance. So it’s not hard to believe that she could’ve faked her death and framed Dan for her murder.

When Dan was attacking her, why she didn’t blurt it out that she’s pregnant?

Dan’s getting called out on his BS and infidelity by Mike (past) and getting psychoanalyzed by Ellen (present).👏🏻

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Snazzy Daisy

[Elizzikra]

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When Dan was attacking her, why she didn’t blurt it out that she’s pregnant?

Because she isn't really, she just wanted to be? Though I am surprised she hasn't lied to him yet about it.

[chocolatine]

6 hours ago, Snazzy Daisy said:

She intentionally set Beth and Arthur's project site on fire.

Knowing that there were people inside.

[txhorns79]

13 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Okay, so Alex did kill the grandma. Not sure how I feel about that. It feels like the show started to go with a nuanced look at Alex only to dial it right back to Psycho Bitch. Boring.

I'm annoyed by this because the all the talk before it premiered was that it was going to treat Alex in a more nuanced way than the movie did, and if anything, they've made her more insane.  I mean, within a couple of weeks of the affair, Alex is already going full horror movie villain.  She let Grandma drown, she set Beth's worksite on fire, putting multiple people at risk for death, and she maybe kidnapped Ellen.  It's too much.  

And Dan, screaming at your daughter after she just returned home to find out who may have taken her is a great way to ensure she'll be extra traumatized by the experience.

[canaanite2]

Looks like Alex will still be alive with that shot of lots of blood, but no body. There's something up with Ellen's friend. There has to be. Whenever a character who is struggling gets to have some fun with someone they just met who's outgoing and forward about wanting to be their BFF, it's practically guaranteed that new BFF is evil and conniving. 

Edited May 15, 2023 by canaanite2

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, canaanite2 said:

Looks like Alex will still be alive with that shot of lots of blood, but no body.

If that happens I will be extremely pissed off. Fatal Attraction is NOT supposed to be Gone Girl!

[T Summer]

or..

 

please don't reveal spoiler tag if you don't want to know another movie has a similar plot

 

Spoiler

Promising Young Woman

 

[Elizzikra]

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I'm annoyed by this because the all the talk before it premiered was that it was going to treat Alex in a more nuanced way than the movie did, and if anything, they've made her more insane. 

I can't remember the original movie but I think that in it, there was really no explanation of Alex's reaction to the breakup with Dan. She just kind of ... went nuts. In this version, I do think they are laying a solid backstory for Alex having long-standing issues with relationships and abandonment, though we don't have a specific diagnosis for her. It's clearer that Dan is part of a pattern with her.

That said, I don't think that this makes Alex "more nuanced" as the series was sold. It explains her better, sort of, but she is still pretty much unequivocally the bad guy. Dan cheated and that was wrong but all his other flaws are tempered. He cheated, but only once, only for a short time and at a difficult time in his otherwise perfect life. Plus his father was an ass. And he really, really loves his family. And he's nice to his dog. And he's arrogant, but isn't that pretty much a job requirement for what he does? And hey - he's not really a murderer after all but everyone is still being so mean to him!

I still like the series. I like Joshua Jackson and Amanda Peet and I think they are serviceable in their roles. I, of course, love Quincy. But when promised a more nuanced take on Alex, I would really have liked exactly that. I wanted Alex to not be mentally ill and not be so manipulative that she fakes a suicide attempt and possibly fakes a pregnancy. I don't want her so sociopathic that she lights a building on fire with people in it after having drowned an old lady in a swimming pool and setting the dog free to run on a busy street. I'd rather see her portrayed as a smart and successful woman who is yet still so insecure that her romantic relationships are her ultimate measure of worth and in the face of that rejection breaks down. I'd like to see a more nuanced Dan too. Someone who, if he doesn't outright cheat on his wife, maybe has a wandering eye and takes advantage of women in other ways - perhaps by leaning on them too heavily at work and failing to give them credit for their accomplishments. This is where I think Michael Douglas works better than Joshua Jackson - JJ is too likable as Dan whereas MD could always pull off that smarmy, oily womanizer thing really well. 

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There's something up with Ellen's friend. There has to be. Whenever a character who is struggling gets to have some fun with someone they just met who's outgoing and forward about wanting to be their BFF, it's practically guaranteed that new BFF is evil and conniving.

I'm not super-interested in present-day Ellen but I figured the new friend was set up to be a romantic interest. Maybe evil, maybe not. Though, actually, I suppose it was revealed in this episode that the new BFF and the professor are having some sort of inappropriate relationship? I do kind of wonder how it is that Ellen ended up so (seemingly) well adjusted. Her father was convicted of murder and supposedly she believed he was guilty of it until he told her otherwise, 15 years later. She seems to have believed that with a) relatively little convincing and b) not a whole lot of anger that both mom and dad lied to her for 15 years. I understand why they would have lied but it would be reasonable for her to be at least a little upset about it. Then after OG dad goes to jail, mom remarries and she starts calling her step-father (or perhaps he actually adopted her, which would mean that Dan's parental rights would have been terminated) "Dad" and there doesn't seem to be much drama or emotion about all that either. It's not like Ellen and Dan weren't close. We have seen him being a pretty hands on dad despite his high powered job. 

What would reignite my interest in Grown Ellen would be to learn that she does actually have some pretty deep issues around relationships. Maybe in some way she becomes the "nuanced" Alex - unable to accept any sort of rejection or abandonment from romantic partners even though, as we are shown repeatedly, she is intelligent and academically successful (though that pesky thesis isn't going to write itself). I did think that it was interesting that Ellen warned off her professor with regard to the inappropriate relationship with the student. Maybe Ellen's new BFF is actually Alex's daughter (if Alex didn't really die and in fact went off and had a baby - possibly Dan's) - or if she had a baby pre-Dan that she had given up and later reunited with) come to avenge the wrongs done to her mother? I will absolutely hate that, honestly, but worse tv has been written...

[Sweet-tea]

On 5/15/2023 at 5:01 PM, Elizzikra said:

I'd rather see her portrayed as a smart and successful woman who is yet still so insecure that her romantic relationships are her ultimate measure of worth and in the face of that rejection breaks down. I'd like to see a more nuanced Dan too. Someone who, if he doesn't outright cheat on his wife, maybe has a wandering eye and takes advantage of women in other ways - perhaps by leaning on them too heavily at work and failing to give them credit for their accomplishments. This is where I think Michael Douglas works better than Joshua Jackson - JJ is too likable as Dan whereas MD could always pull off that smarmy, oily womanizer thing really well. 

I agree. I don’t like that they’ve made Alex off the charts nuts. In the original film, there was some sympathy (mostly from women) towards Alex. I think they could relate to being used and then dumped without a word. We didn’t see Alex’s back story as we have here, so maybe she was already out there too. I don’t know. But in this portrayal, Alex seems psychotic and like she’s been that way for a long time. She didn’t just snap.

What was the point of killing Beth’s mother? It seemed random. What was Alex even doing there? Was she breaking in to destroy something and then just decided, “Well, I’m caught now so I’ll hang out with the old lady and then knock her off”? I guess they decided to spare the bunny and swap it out for something even worse. 

The back and forth between time periods is clunky. I have a hard time detecting what period they’re in at first, because Dan and Beth look that different. Still not understanding Beth’s underwhelming reaction to her mother’s death.

I don’t find the adult daughter’s storyline interesting at all. I have no idea what is going on with her friend but there is something up or they wouldn’t show it. 

The scene where the younger Dan got called to his boss’s office about the letter didn’t ring true to me. A normal reaction would’ve been to ask for more details. Even if it was refused, a person who is innocent and is accused of something like that is going to react more strongly. Was it because he knew it was from Alex? Probably, but it still seems like he would’ve tried to defend himself more. He’s a prosecutor. He knows how to make a sound argument. 

The pace in this episode was slow. I had difficulty staying focused. 

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by Sweet-tea

[txhorns79]

13 minutes ago, Sweet-tea said:

 

What was the point of killing Beth’s mother? It seemed random. What was Alex even doing there? Was she breaking in to destroy something and then just decided, “Well, I’m caught now so I’ll hang out with the old lady and then knock her off”? I guess they decided to spare the bunny and swap it out for something even worse. 

I think Alex was going to break in and steal something.  Beth's mother drowning was just a situation that presented itself, rather than anything Alex intended to do.  I will say that Alex looked pretty freaked out after it happened, so I took that to mean it was nothing she had planned, even if she was fine letting it happen.  This was as opposed to setting Beth's worksite on fire, which we saw Alex doing in a calm, calculated fashion. 

 

[MaggieG]

I understand it was done to move the plot along but really Dan? You tell your wife you had an affair on the day that her mother drowns in your pool?  

[Elizzikra]

2 hours ago, Sweet-tea said:

 

He’s a defense attorney. He knows how to make a sound argument. 

 

 

FWIW, “old” Dan was a prosecutor.

 

33 minutes ago, MaggieG said:

I understand it was done to move the plot along but really Dan? You tell your wife you had an affair on the day that her mother drowns in your pool?  

I understand why he did that. He understood immediately that Alex had been involved and he had to tell Beth so she could keep herself and Ellen safe.

[Sweet-tea]

7 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

FWIW, “old” Dan was a prosecutor.

 

I understand why he did that. He understood immediately that Alex had been involved and he had to tell Beth so she could keep herself and Ellen safe.

Thanks. I meant that. I don’t now why I said defense. 

[T Summer]

This is a mess  that's not benefiting from the extra time to flesh who these characters were and why they were set  on such a collision course with each other, and what signs he  or she  might have missed. Should Dan have recognized Alex's mental illness?  Did Alex read the situation all wrong? Did Dan give her reason to? It's just  that Alex is criminally insane like in the movie?

Dragging it out while they stuff every extraneous little tidbit   they can think of into what should've been a 90 minute movie is just... a drag. As Cementhead smartly and succinctly put it on the previous thread:  by telling the story starting where they did and with the two different timelines they took all of the suspense  out of it that the original possessed.

Most of these remakes and reboots are totally unnecessary and leave the public wondering who the heck was asking for this? ...branding them shameless money grabs. However there actually was room for improvement with the original Fatal Attraction. As Roger Ebert's review* stated (and I wholeheartedly agreed) It's a really good movie in the beginning and the middle until the last act  when it becomes  a ridiculous  slasher film. I'll watch the original movie pretty much  any time  it's on, but I usually check out soon  after Dan tells Beth of his tryst with Alex.

* https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/fatal-attraction-1987

I've always thought the casting here is all wrong.   I can't completely shake off my sympathetic feelings toward Joshua Jackson after 4 years of watching him  as the nice  guy being done horribly wrong by his wife on The Affair. He still seems too much like that guy in this. He could be playing the character completely differently, but either he doesn't have the range  or it wasn't coaxed out of him. .

Maybe it's just me,  but I actually think this version of Dan  as written would kill Alex in a minute if he and his fixer Mike could think of a way to hide the evil deed. He only confessed to the affair because he felt he had to  to keep himself and his household safe and when Marlene sent him home early because of the investigation into the complaint letter  about him, he lied to Beth about the reason  he was home. Furthermore, it looked to me like he'd have   no problem continuing beating Alex to death  if he didn't fear being arrested and imprisoned. I just don't see strength of character or morality motivating  any of his choices.

 

[millennium]

I still like this show.   I find the Jungian subtext interesting.    I think grown-up Ellen, though closed off, is sympathetic.  I can imagine many people might feel detached and depersonalized by the whole situation.   Her new friend is trouble.   At first I thought she was hitting on Ellen (she may still be).   It's ironic that Ellen is warning her professor but entirely missing the gathering storm right in front of her.

Dan is not a good man.  He desperately wants to believe he is but when push comes to shove, it's Dan first, every time.   I don't like how this show (or the original movie) set up a situation where Dan seems justified in strangling Alex.   It's feels like a dark male fantasy where a series of circumstances grant the husband/father a license to storm across the lines of society's taboos and beat the shit out of the psycho slut messing with his life (psycho slut being how Dan -- and by proxy the audience -- see Alex) without repercussions.

I don't like the relationship between Beth and Arthur or where it finally ends up.   It's too "This Is Us."   But otherwise I find the series very watchable.

Edited May 17, 2023 by millennium

[Elizzikra]

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Dan is not a good man.  He desperately wants to believe he is but when push comes to shove, it's Dan first, every time.

I don't necessarily agree. I think when push came to shove, Dan went to prison for 15 years for a crime he didn't commit (or so we are told). If that's first, I don't want to see second.

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But otherwise I find the series very watchable.

That's a good word. I find it watchable as well. I'll hang around to see how things end.

[T Summer]

I'm not saying you Elizzikra (or anyone else) are wrong to think Dan is a good man, but for the sake of conversation...

On 5/17/2023 at 8:59 PM, Elizzikra said:

I don't necessarily agree. I think when push came to shove, Dan went to prison for 15 years for a crime he didn't commit (or so we are told). If that's first, I don't want to see second.

We've been given no indication that Dan voluntarily took  the rap for Alex's killing. His whole I'm going to prove I didn't do it declaration would be mighty strange if he had.

There could've been  witnesses that saw and or heard him the day of the open house the first time he went to Alex's apartment pushing his way in raging at her this is going to stop!  Then there was the second time  when he flung her all around that apartment and stopped just short of choking her to death. It would be pretty improbable if both those incidents happened without Alex's neighbors being any the wiser.  His car was surely seen at her apartment on more than one occasion.  His fingerprints would've been at the scene, not only on the doorknobs but places someone who spent time there would leave them. We know that Beth and Mike knew about the affair so it's possible other people not on his defense team, not friendly toward him  did as well. Frank, for one. There were the photos Alex took of them together at the beach. Also she was talking on the phone to someone about her new relationship. If Alex really turned up dead (and I'm assuming she did), that could be pretty damning.

My imaginary  law degree from watching umpteen seasons  of  Law and Order tells me he could've  been convicted on motive, opportunity  and  circumstantial evidence.

Latter day Mike and his new tenant Dan were discussing  who else could have killed Alex over dinner. After Mike laid down two photos Dan asked what's all this? The rest of the prints came back, Mike answered and started listing people: Dr Paul's buddies [the neighbor], Gabriel  [the bailiff], Benny's guy  [court clerk?] and then he ended by naming the two  in the photos and stated rather ironically  "as far as viable alternative suspects go  I think we're kind of cooking with gas here, hmm? and we've both had a case or 10 where more was made with a lot fucking less".

  I'm not stating someone who commits battery   should go to jail for  2nd degree murder. Just making an observation.

 

 

[Elizzikra]

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Then there was the second time  when he flung her all around that apartment and stopped just short of choking her to death. It would be pretty improbable if both those incidents happened without Alex's neighbors being any the wiser. 

Her closest neighbor, Dr. Pill Popper, had already moved out, so it's possible no one witnessed those arguments, but I do concede your other points. 

[T Summer]

1 hour ago, Elizzikra said:

Her closest neighbor, Dr. Pill Popper, had already moved out, so it's possible no one witnessed those arguments, but I do concede your other points. 

Yes, it's possible  no one witnessed those arguments but it's also possible someone did because of the noise level. I was looking away from the screen while that last scene played where Dan barged in and flung her all around and the sounds without the visuals were very disturbing. 

My mum who doesn't go out much walked  in yesterday afternoon with one of those 4 footed canes and I immediately went down stairs and through two rooms to see what was making the  clump clump clump noise I was hearing upstairs.

That older woman with the bunny who took something in for Alex one day while she was at work struck me as someone who would probably be concerned enough about all those unusual loud noises to  call the police rather than go see about it herself. ...and we don't even really know who else lives in there. 

 

Just hypothesizing about how Dan could've gotten sentenced to 15 years to life for second degree murder? Hopefully they'll reign in all the superfluous nonsense that's  s-t-r-e-t-c-h-i-n-g   i-t   o-u-t  and show us exactly how it happened.

[millennium]

I wonder why the show cast an actress to play Beth who is 7 years older than the actor playing Dan.   In the photo at the top of the thread, Beth looks even older than Amanda Peet's 51 years of age.   In the original movie, Anne Archer was 3 years younger than Michael Douglas. 

[AstridM]

4 hours ago, millennium said:

I wonder why the show cast an actress to play Beth who is 7 years older than the actor playing Dan.   In the photo at the top of the thread, Beth looks even older than Amanda Peet's 51 years of age.   In the original movie, Anne Archer was 3 years younger than Michael Douglas. 

And no one ever questions it when the women are younger than the men. 🤷‍♀️