S11.E14: Top 4 Perform

[Nonlinear]

I really am disliking the way the judges give comments, even Jesse, and disliking how the way the dancers are forced to react to the judges.

 

I like the dancers and hope there will be a season 12.

 

I am wishing for a Zach win! I enjoy watching him the most out of all the dancers in the top 20.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Nonlinear

[Follies]

I have absolutely, totally, completely had it with Nigel.  From now on I will mute the TV when he starts talking.  The pompous, affected, self-congratulatory speeches and quotes were bad enough, but last night when he started pontificating about suicide, I almost had a stroke from rage.  After the tragic loss of Robin Williams, people are finally starting to talk about and accept the connection between serious depression and suicide, and to understand that it has nothing to do with whether or not the person feels  there's "someone there" or not. Suicidal people are in a hell that is far, far beyond the reach of human connection.  And he starts prattling on about how stupid and selfish people who commit suicide are, because "there's always someone there."  Such profound, willful ignorance and arrogance.  I loathe him now.

[ari333]

I have absolutely, totally, completely had it with Nigel.  From now on I will mute the TV when he starts talking.  The pompous, affected, self-congratulatory speeches and quotes were bad enough, but last night when he started pontificating about suicide, I almost had a stroke from rage.  After the tragic loss of Robin Williams, people are finally starting to talk about and accept the connection between serious depression and suicide, and to understand that it has nothing to do with whether or not the person feels  there's "someone there" or not. Suicidal people are in a hell that is far, far beyond the reach of human connection.  And he starts prattling on about how stupid and selfish people who commit suicide are, because "there's always someone there."  Such profound, willful ignorance and arrogance.  I loathe him now.

 

I was looking for a Nigel thread so I could say the same, but you said it better.  YES THIS!

 

Also, I normally enjoy JTF as a judge, and in general, but he just seemed off to me on this episode.

 

I loved the African Jazz (I hope that's the name?)  and I almost always like Bollywood.

 

If Nigel could shut his face this show would benefit imo.

Edited August 31, 2014 by ari333

[English Teacher]

...and you know we all now be subjected to Nigel giving some convoluted explanation in lieu of apology this week as he tries to justify his stupidity. Yes, Nigel, your opinion is nothing but ignorance and stupidity.

[dcalley]

I wonder if any suicide prevention organizations or mental health organizations/professionals have tweeted him. He might have a harder time arguing with them than he does with individuals. What a jackass.

[crossover]

I have absolutely, totally, completely had it with Nigel.  From now on I will mute the TV when he starts talking.  The pompous, affected, self-congratulatory speeches and quotes were bad enough, but last night when he started pontificating about suicide, I almost had a stroke from rage.  After the tragic loss of Robin Williams, people are finally starting to talk about and accept the connection between serious depression and suicide, and to understand that it has nothing to do with whether or not the person feels  there's "someone there" or not. Suicidal people are in a hell that is far, far beyond the reach of human connection.  And he starts prattling on about how stupid and selfish people who commit suicide are, because "there's always someone there."  Such profound, willful ignorance and arrogance.  I loathe him now.

I saw Nigel's statement as including medical help for depression.  I don't think he was trying to belittle the disease.  I think he was trying to express that the person is not alone and not the only one with those kinds of feelings/thoughts.  If I read your comment correctly, you are saying they are beyond the help that humans can provide.  Is that correct?  If so, I've never thought about it in that way.

[Follies]

I meant that they are beyond the kind of help that a friend or family member can offer and beyond getting any comfort from the awareness that people love and care about them.  These human connections are lost to the overwhelming pain, and cease to have any meaning.  I didn't mean that they're past medical help or intervention--but these aren't always sought in time, and even if sought, don't always work.  I suppose there is a chance Nigel meant it that way, but that's not the impression I got... I felt he was jumping on the bandwagon of blaming the suicide victims for being weak and selfish.  It's frightening to think that life can actually get that bad for someone, and many people choose to see it as a result of weakness rather than facing the possibility that it can happen--maybe even to them or to someone they love.

[crossover]

OK.   I agree that serious depression is beyond the love, comfort and understanding that a love one can provide.  It's an illness.  Just like some heart patients survive medical treatment, some do not.  And, some heart patients don't seek medical attention in time.  I see depression in the same way. 

[EyesGlazed]

Valerie is the Cyrus of her season.  Both auditioned as dancers in a style that's not very familiar to the general public, both did much better than expected at new choreography, and both project that indefinable something in performance that causes people to love them.  In Cyrus's season I got really fed up with him being voted though week after week while better dancers were booted.  I wrote rageful posts like some of those posted here about Valerie.  Now I'm more zen about it and I appreciate that rare quality they both have.  Or maybe the show has beaten me into submission.

 

LOVED seeing Aaron again.  A real man.  They should bring him back for dances other than tap; as I remember he was great with jazz and other styles too.

 

Jesse, stop with the age-inappropriate flirting, please.. If you were a straight guy saying stuff like that to, say, Jessica, you'd come across as a skeeve.

 

ITA picklesprite.  I normally love JTF on this show but he needs to shut that stuff down.  In prior seasons, JTF would say things like "I'd tell you how beautiful I think you are but that might be creepy for you" and it would get a nice laugh.  Go back there, Jesse.  Nigel is the champion perv on this show and we don't need another.

 

I'm really torn between Ricky and Zach, they are both excellent and compelling in different ways.  Ricky really is a freak (dancewise.  in a good way.)  

 

Will there not be a girl winner and boy winner this season?  Other posters are talking like there will be only one winner.

Edited September 1, 2014 by EyesGlazed

[Briana84]

I'm confused. Everyone keeps saying "I hope Ricky or Zach wins." Did they change the rules this year? Because if it's the same as it's been for the last few years one of them WILL win for the guys and then either Jessica or Valerie will win for the girls. They never actually announce who got the most votes. But like I said, I may have missed the explanation that this year is different.

[crowceilidh]

This year is different.  Back to one winner.  Stupid.

[Bella]

This year is different.  Back to one winner.  Stupid.

 

Right. It's one winner again.

 

Apparently Nigel is willing to make all sorts of tweaks other than shutting his mouth and otherwise cutting way back on the amount of babbling that comes from the judges table. News flash, Nigel: we don't watch the show to listen to the judges talk. 

 

Anyway, yes, it's only a single winner this time around.

[Rick Kitchen]

Nappytabs were on something last night, I don't even remember what I was watching, and the interviewer asked them who they though was going to win, and they gave various reasons as to why they thought Jessica might win, or Ricky might win, or Zack might win, but they never even mentioned Valerie.

[shimarella]

I was really bored with this finale. None of the dances really stood out as particularly memorable. Aaron & Zach's tap routine came the closest. Was I correct in noting zero ballroom in this finale? Has that ever happened before? Tyce's choreography for Valerie & Zach I found rather awful. Travis' routine for Robert & Jessica put me off because it felt like it chronicled a violently abusive relationship that was being sold to us as sexy/intense but it seemed to consist of Robert grabbing Jessica by the head or neck while pushing her away, while she kept coming back and clinging to him. I FF-ed through all judges' comments so there was that. Honestly I was hopeful for the beginning of this season but really never came up to snuff for me. I suppose Zach is the best choice of all 4 finalists for me, but I've really ended up indifferent. Meh-ish dancers, meh-ish choreography for the most part this season. 

[Anothermi]

Well, after reading all the posts about Nigel's comments, regarding suicide, on this forum, I finally got up the courage to watch/listen to them myself and I find, despite being pre-disposed to disliking and/or outright hating his gratuitous pontificating, I came away with a different take on his statements. He stated at the outset (or almost the outset) that he had recently lost two friends to suicide.  I'm not even going to guess who they might be, but I take him at his word and because of that what I saw and heard was someone who was going through the anger stage of grief. Him using the term "stupid" was, as I saw it, an expression of that anger.  I expect he still has a long way to go before he is able to come to terms with the loss of his friends in that way.  

 

I think it may be easier to be compassionate towards a person who you don't know taking their own life.  I've only had one experience of someone I was related to committing suicide and it was a long time ago.  I don't know how I would react now and of course there are different reasons people do commit suicide, not all of them are depression.  There is an ongoing debate regarding assisted suicide for people who have terminal diseases.  It still doesn't make it any easier for the friends and family left behind, whether they support the decision or not.  

 

So, it's a live show and I felt he was talking from his heart.  Not the best place to do it, I agree, but it was not his usual pontification IMHO.

[iameatingaburrito]

I saw Nigel's statement as including medical help for depression.  I don't think he was trying to belittle the disease.  I think he was trying to express that the person is not alone and not the only one with those kinds of feelings/thoughts.  If I read your comment correctly, you are saying they are beyond the help that humans can provide.  Is that correct?  If so, I've never thought about it in that way.

Thank you. I don't know how much is really appropriate to talk about here, but as somebody who has dealt just about as closely as you can with suicide/attempts, I thought Nigel's words were (as typical) badly articulated but I understood his intention and was touched by it. I feel nothing but frustration with the people jumping in to criticize him so harshly (how dare someone call suicide stupid!..... what?) and have to wonder if they have dealt with the huge devastation that suicide leaves with the survivors. Nigel said he lost two people close to him, and I 100 percent understand the emotions that were coming through in his words. I feel bad that he's getting attacked for it. Yes, he could have phrased it better. Like how you did, for instance.

[crossover]

 

So, it's a live show and I felt he was talking from his heart.  Not the best place to do it, I agree, but it was not his usual pontification IMHO.

I agree.  Nigel was touched.  I was focused on depression because of Robin Williams.  But people do make that decision for other reasons.

[English Teacher]

I agree that he is probably in the anger part of the stages of grief. But this is a dance show. How about focusing on those 4 poor kids who have to awkwardly stand there when the judges start blathering on. And he is the worst because he is ALWAYS talking about things other than how they dance. Giving the choreographers feedback is appropriate...albeit sometime it is drivel (like telling Travis to "shut up"). But those kids want to know what they did well and how they should improve. And if there is extra time for filling up with judge talk, add more of those choreo tips. When you are in the public forum, you need to watch your words. He didn't. I feel his pain and frustration....but he needs to keep his POV in check for a more appropriate time to share.

[ToxicUnicorn]

I feel nothing but frustration with the people jumping in to criticize him so harshly (how dare someone call suicide stupid!..... what?) and have to wonder if they have dealt with the huge devastation that suicide leaves with the survivors.

As someone who judges Nigel very harshly, for his comments on the show and for his follow up comments on twitter as reported in an article, I can say emphatically that yes, I have dealt and am still dealing with the devastation of a recent suicide.  So, yes.  And I feel very strongly about someone taking on that kind of topic off the top of their head and making statements that could potentially be hurtful and/or counterproductive for millions of people.  The way I heard it, someone who has ever attempted or thought about suicide could just hear that s/he has spent a lot of their time and energy being stupid, and it is not a large leap to then think that they, themselves are stupid, which is not helpful at all.  And yes, perhaps he intended to remind those people that others are there for them.  Would that it were that easy.  Plenty of people have committed suicide who had someone who loved them.  Did Nigel ever stop to think that the people left behind might be made to feel guilty by his comments that perhaps, if they had only been more successful in conveying that THEY WERE THERE, they could have stopped it?  Of course, he didn't.  He didn't think about any of that.  He was being self-important and self-indulgent.  He in no way is qualified to make any of these statements at all.

 

Let's suppose for a minute that his intentions were good, he was speaking from the heart, and he was speaking only about his personal experience.  In that case, he certainly did not get that general point across to me, either in the show or in his subsequent comments.  In fact, his follow up comments were worse, from what I understand.  (I was too incensed to look up his twitter feed to verify what were alleged to be direct quotes.)  So, at the very minimum, serious points off for effective public speaking.

 

Finally,

 

But this is a dance show. How about focusing on those 4 poor kids who have to awkwardly stand there when the judges start blathering on. And he is the worst because he is ALWAYS talking about things other than how they dance. Giving the choreographers feedback is appropriate...albeit sometime it is drivel (like telling Travis to "shut up"). But those kids want to know what they did well and how they should improve.  And if there is extra time for filling up with judge talk, add more of those choreo tips. When you are in the public forum, you need to watch your words. He didn't. I feel his pain and frustration....but he needs to keep his POV in check for a more appropriate time to share.

 

Right.  All of this, too.  x 10.

[English Teacher]

Deleted for repeated info

Edited September 3, 2014 by English Teacher

[Sharpie66]

I finally got around to watching this show this morning. If I were voting (don't have Facebook, so can't), I would have tossed all of my votes to Zach, which is not what I was expecting at the beginning of the performance episodes. I fell for Ricky with his initial audition and was convinced he had it in the bag with his Skin and Bones routine at Pasadena week, but he has not grown like Zach has over the summer. Also, considering that the prizes include that role in On the Town, Zach should definitely get that one! 

 

BTW, I was in the orchestra for my high school's production of OTT back in 1985--our production stunk to high heaven due to a bad director and not much dance talent on stage (it was so bad the school's principal refused to have us open but instead made us work on it for an extra week, canceling our first weekend of shows!), but I would love to see this on Broadway.

 

Oh, and when Spencer was talking in the video package for his Broadway number about the storyline behind the number, I knew immediately that the music was going to be "Hernando's Hideaway," which I haven't heard since I was in the chorus for The Pajama Game in my junior year. I really liked both Jessica and Zach in the number, and was singing along with Ella. "It's called Hernando's Hideaway--Ole!"

 

Loved both that number and Zach and Aaron's tap piece the best, but I also liked the opening group piece as well.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Sharpie66

[Min77]

Though I would prefer a Zack win tonight, since I find him more interesting to watch, I wouldn't be terribly upset with any of the four winning. I do think the two guys and Jessica are more skilled than Valerie, but I can see her appeal as a favorite.

 

While I realize Nigel has to have one of those every season, I disagree with the "growth arc" slot for Zach. Of course, they have all improved somewhat, but Zack is the one who first made me say "Whoa! Who is THAT?" from the very first African Jazz they did week one. While I still wasn't sure who he was because of the make-up and costuming of that piece, I began to rewatch group numbers, trying to figure out which one was "that guy" who often stood out for me. For example, in an early hip-hop group number, I felt Marquis and "that guy, whoever he was" were heads above the rest. At first, I thought it was Casey, based on height alone and costuming continued to make it difficult to be sure. But when I checked, I was surprised that it was Zack.

 

Ricky has freakishly flexible feet and lovely extensions. However, I thought Stanley matched him in extensions and light, airy movement. I was disappointed that Stanley left so soon. Ricky is the type of dancer that I would enjoy as part of a contemporary troupe, where my enjoyment comes strictly from the movement itself. Then we have dancers like Jakob, who to my eye, is equally as skilled as Ricky, but had that something extra in performance that brought out the "whoa, Jakob!!" in me. One example was a 4 second stare into the camera as he moved forward, snapping his fingers during Wade's group piece Comanche. it wasn't a particularly difficult move, but he brought that indefinable something that made it memorable. I can still see it in my mind's eye.  The same goes for Danny in Mia's The Moment I Said It.  I don't remember any moment's like that from Ricky. He would be 5th or 6th on my list of SYTYCD contemporary guys simply because I haven't connected with him as a fully rounded performer. This is similar to my reaction to Will in season 8. I could have seen the logic of his winning, because he was very good. But I never really looked forward to a single one of his performances during that season. Like all the All Stars after their return, I have a softened view of him now, but more as a full out hottie than a performer.

 

I don't think there is a true disparity between the abilities of Zack, Ricky, or even Jessica (I didn't rewatch much that she did, so I'm not solid in that opinion of her). Zack has lovely extensions, though Ricky has the edge there. Zack has the edge, imo, on sharper upper-body movement. I noticed Zack's isolation of neck/head movement outpaced Ricky's in their hip-hop. I would put Zack's transitions and fluidity, even when out of his genre, on par with Ricky's. His skill in tap equals Ricky's skill in contemporary. Point by point, they both have strengths and areas for development. The only thing I would dislike about a Zack win would be hearing Nigel chirp endlessly about how "it was okay that the BEST dancer didn't win". He's spent years apologizing for the losses of Allison,Travis, Kathryn, and Twitch, thus subtly disparaging the winning guy or girl for those seasons.  If Zack wins, it will be because he's a great dancer along with being a favorite. The same will be true for Ricky, Jessica, and to some extent, Valerie.

 

No matter who wins tonight, I wish all of them well going forward.

[tpplay]

Aaron.  Sigh.