S21.E07: David Byrne; John McWhorter; Josh Tyrangiel

[tessaray]

Air Date: March 10, 2023

Bill’s guests are David Byrne, John McWhorter, and Josh Tyrangiel.

[realityplease]

I enjoyed this show where those on the panel permitted each other to finish their thoughts & didn't interrupt.  Each got their say without shouting or talking over each other.

For those on "woke-insult alert," the discussion hopefully torqued down the heat (but probably won't.) Bill said that "woke becomes a joke" when some would rather "rename it [the injustice] than solve it."  McWhorter added, "Stop [with the] word directions." Meaning, concentrate on the injustice & stop correcting everyone on how they should say or describe things because being overly sensitive to semantics is less important than the solution to be achieved. 

I know there are some out there just itching to disagree with me, but I don't see either of them woke-bashing, but only saying, we may not disagree with your goal though we may disagree (or don't know) how to achieve it.  But picking apart our words or mandating how we should say things - doesn't get us to the goal.

Edited March 11, 2023 by realityplease

[Welshman in Ca]

There was someone in the audience who sounded like a crow on acid whenever they laughed & it was really fucking annoying.

[Tiggertoo]

I really enjoyed the interview with David Byrne, I wasn’t up to date on his work.  Bill seemed slightly subdued, I think maybe because he’s such a fan.

And, I agree, I enjoyed that panel, especially after Russell Brand last week.

Why is Overtime on CNN?  Aren’t they competing networks?

[The Solution]

This was a great episode. Bill added a great deal of, yes, nuance,  to his issues with wokeness and I have to say that I agree with him. Let's solve the injustice rather than just rename it. On the other hand, I can also see how the equity-type solutions and the intentional changes in language eventually improve the situations. The example with Ms. Littlefeather illustrated a lot of this and Bill pointed out that he agrees with what's been happening in that regard and the improvements in other situations as well. Bill showed true humility and understanding this week. Refreshing!

[DXD526]

I've seen David Byrne interviewed a number of times, and have never seen him smile and laugh so much. That could be attributable to what he was talking about, not stressing out like he used to in his youth, thinking everything he did had to be perfect. He seems really relaxed these days. 

That woman cackling in the audience was annoying AF. 

[Starchild]

On 3/11/2023 at 3:31 PM, Tiggertoo said:

Why is Overtime on CNN?  Aren’t they competing networks?

Discovery owns them both now.

[Hanahope]

Someone must have said something to Bill to quit whining about the left so much and maybe say something nice for a change.  That was a nice New Rules about how Hollywood has helped change minds. 

[canaanite2]

I want a research study on people like the laughing hyena in the audience. Why do they do this? Is this a natural born laugh or something they've curated as part of their brand? If it's natural, are they aware of how annoying they are, or do they look around and wonder why no one else is having as much fun as they are? 

[chediavolo]

17 hours ago, canaanite2 said:

I want a research study on people like the laughing hyena in the audience. Why do they do this? Is this a natural born laugh or something they've curated as part of their brand? If it's natural, are they aware of how annoying they are, or do they look around and wonder why no one else is having as much fun as they are? 

Attention, I suspect.  Her/his obnoxious grating screech was heard by all & is being talked about. 

[Hedgehog2022]

On 3/12/2023 at 8:38 PM, Hanahope said:

Someone must have said something to Bill to quit whining about the left so much and maybe say something nice for a change.  That was a nice New Rules about how Hollywood has helped change minds. 

However...he was sorely uninformed and woefully under researched about the topic of "liberalism" in Hollywood in the early 70's. It was almost shocking how ignorant he was about that time period. 

The early 70's was a time of tremendous division in this country...the Vietnam War was still raging, Nixon was still in control and was using his bully pulpit to divide us even more. Hollywood at that time was divided...the old guard of Hollywood elite were in control of the Academy Awards and were mostly ultra conservative...people like John Wayne, Charleton Heston, Bob Hope, etc...dominated the voting block. The younger generation of actors, writers and directors were being marginalized and pushed aside. That particular incident that  Bill was referring to about Marlon Brando's stand in by a Native American woman was lambasted by the conservatives within the Academy including John Wayne who was very aggressive in his rebuke of this incident. Sadly, Bill was wrong in his summation that this helped to bring about change for Native Americans...it did not change their plight and they still live in poverty, depression and a lack of funding for education and other programs that could benefit them. 

[realityplease]

 

10 hours ago, Hedgehog2022 said:

However...he was sorely uninformed and woefully under researched about the topic of "liberalism" in Hollywood in the early 70's. It was almost shocking how ignorant he was about that time period. 

The early 70's was a time of tremendous division in this country...the Vietnam War was still raging, Nixon was still in control and was using his bully pulpit to divide us even more. Hollywood at that time was divided...the old guard of Hollywood elite were in control of the Academy Awards and were mostly ultra conservative...people like John Wayne, Charleton Heston, Bob Hope, etc...dominated the voting block. The younger generation of actors, writers and directors were being marginalized and pushed aside. That particular incident that  Bill was referring to about Marlon Brando's stand in by a Native American woman was lambasted by the conservatives within the Academy including John Wayne who was very aggressive in his rebuke of this incident. Sadly, Bill was wrong in his summation that this helped to bring about change for Native Americans...it did not change their plight and they still live in poverty, depression and a lack of funding for education and other programs that could benefit them. 

I agree with your description of the division in the country in the early '70's & of the old guard Hollywood elite.

But that was just one side of the division. On the other side of the division was an emerging group of younger generation actors, writers & directors, who were not "marginalized & pushed aside," but rather, from 1967-1970 brought to the screen more progressive movies & themes such as Little Big Man, Guess Who's Coming to DInner, The Graduate, Rosemary's Baby, Easy Rider, Medium Cool, In the Heat of the Night, Bonny & Clyde, etc.  This began changing the make-up of the Academy from the older right-wing conservatives like John Wayne & Charleton Heston to the more liberal left-leaning group it is today.  As with any group though, change can be very slow & the make-up of any large group will not end up 100% one way or the other, in any case.  Always lots of room for variation.

In 1970, a very popular & powerful commercial aired in support of environmental protection.  No dialogue - it simply showed a Native American (or is the correct term Indigenous American? I mean no offense) with a tear running down his face after finding a piece of trash in a stream.  And yes, some or perhaps even many indigenous are STILL well below the standard of living - but there's also several groups in California hooked into the gaming industry that do extremely well.  While the commercial & Littlefeather's appearance didn't change or improve things overnight, they brought an awareness of the unique viewpoint of the indigenous Native American to a very large audience - many of whom never considered it before.  Some spoke out against it, but others took in the message. 

You well described the conservative side of the '70's - but there was also a very vigorous liberal side that was protesting the Vietnam War & sexism & racism & many things, pushing against the John Wayne conservatives & booing Bob Hope when he appeared on campus at mid-western universities.  Yes. many Native Americans still don't have an adequate standard of living just as racism & equal pay for equal work are still issues & not at optimum levels - but it doesn't mean there was no liberalism in the '70's & these topics weren't the stuff of protests.  I don't think Bill was uninformed or under-researched.  It's just that he was looking at the half-full side of the 1970's glass - whereas you focused on the half-empty side.

Edited March 16, 2023 by realityplease

[Hedgehog2022]

31 minutes ago, realityplease said:

 

I agree with your description of the division in the country in the early '70's & of the old guard Hollywood elite.

But that was just one side of the division. On the other side of the division was an emerging group of younger generation actors, writers & directors, who were not "marginalized & pushed aside," but rather, from 1967-1970 brought to the screen more progressive movies & themes such as Little Big Man, The Graduate, Rosemary's Baby, Easy Rider, Medium Cool, In the Heat of the Night, Bonny & Clyde, etc.  This began changing the make-up of the Academy from the older right-wing conservatives like John Wayne & Charleton Heston to the more liberal left-leaning group it is today.  As with any group though, change can be very slow & the make-up of any large group will not end up 100% one way or the other, in any case.  Always lots of room for variation.

In 1970, a very popular & powerful commercial aired in support of environmental protection.  No dialogue - it simply showed a Native American (or is the correct term Indigenous American? I mean no offense) with a tear running down his face after finding a piece of trash in a stream.  And yes, some or perhaps even many indigenous are STILL well below the standard of living - but there's also several groups in California hooked into the gaming industry that do extremely well.  While the commercial & Littlefeather's appearance didn't change or improve things overnight, they brought an awareness of the unique viewpoint of the indigenous Native American to a very large audience - many of whom never considered it before.  Some spoke out against it, but others took in the message. 

You well described the conservative side of the '70's - but there was also a very vigorous liberal side that was protesting the Vietnam War & sexism & racism & many things, pushing against the John Wayne conservatives & booing Bob Hope when he appeared on campus at mid-western universities.  Yes. many Native Americans still don't have an adequate standard of living just as racism & equal pay for equal work are still issues & not at optimum levels - but it doesn't mean there was no liberalism in the '70's & these topics weren't the stuff of protests.  I don't think Bill was uninformed or-researched.  He was just looking at the half-full side of the 1970's glass - where you only looked at the half-empty side.

I wasn't implying there wasn't liberalism in the early to mid 70's...of course it was there but the Academy wasn't reflecting it in their membership and leadership. It was and remained so, until recently, an elite group of older conservative white people. Yes, there was a pool of younger directors, writers and actors that were banging on the door and making films that were reflecting life outside the Hollywood bubble...a bubble that Mr. Maher has been a part of for sometime I might add. But these people were not members of the Academy and would not be members for many years to come. The Generation Gap, as it was known as at the time, was quite apparent in the Academy and in Hollywood $$$ circles.

As for Native Americans and Hollywood...Ms. Little Feather brought some awareness to the plight of Native Americans but unfortunately her message did fall flat and was mocked by a segment of the population who ridiculed Brando for his absence. The poverty and standard of living on a majority of reservations is way below that of even those who live in Appalachia or inner cities. It has not improved for those that live in very rural, isolated areas west of the Continental Divide...to add more misery to their lives, there is an added risk for many Native women who are being murdered and/or have been abducted and are now missing. The Crow reservation in Montana has an extremely large number of missing, endangered or murdered women and few resources to help with investigations. Some things have changed but much remains the same as it was in 1973 for most of the Indigenous population of the United States. 

My problem with Bill was his lack of context in the time period he was talking about. Context in terms of the way Hollywood and the Academy was then and the battle to make it reflect our country as diverse and not just a white male dominated society. It took years to get to where we are today in terms of movies that tackle these issues. Granted, I am bit older than Bill and watched the Oscars in my college dorm room in 1973 while Bill was probably in his footed jammies and had to go to bed before the Oscars were broadcast that night...LOL...BTW...the actor that played the Native American with a tear running down his face when he sees someone throwing trash out of their car window was actually Jewish...not a Native actor.

[realityplease]

 

 

1 hour ago, Hedgehog2022 said:

LOL...BTW...the actor that played the Native American with a tear running down his face when he sees someone throwing trash out of their car window was actually Jewish...not a Native actor.

The crying Native American was Iron Eyes Cody, an Italian American from Louisiana who claimed Cherokee heritage and played many Native American roles over his lifetime. Though throughout his lifetime he claimed that his father was Cherokee & his mother was Cree.  When he died in 1999, his sister said the family's origin was Italian, hailed from Sicily, & that Cody was not Native American at all.  Incidentally, in the ad, it wasn't "someone throwing trash out a car window." Cody was paddling down a river in a canoe & seeing the trash polluting the river. That part, I didn't have to research.  I remember the ad well & it was widely discussed.  It made an impact. Though admittedly wrong on many occasions, I at least try not to be "uninformed & under-researched."

I think your context for 1970 is too narrow but we can agree to disagree.  To me, by 1970, the old guard like John Wayne were already facing a change in guard. (Wayne's last movie was in 1976 - The Shootist.) The movies I listed from the late 60's, reflected changes that would start to divide the Academy in 1970. The actors & directors, Jack Nicholson, Peter Fonda, Dustin Hoffman, Warren Beatty, Roman Polanski, Faye Dunaway, Sidney Poitier, Gene Hackman, Marlon Brando, to name a few (& how time flies - all old-timers now) were already starring in movies by 1970 & soon to replace the John Wayne-types & themselves become movie establishment.  One of the biggest movies released in 1970 was Little Big Man about a 121-year old man looking back on his life after being raised by Native Americans & witnessing General Custer's last stand.  

By the way, Bill is 67 - I doubt he was wearing footie pajamas in 1970 at age 14. Though he says he doesn't watch now, I'll bet he was glued to the set watching then.  In those days, the broadcast was a big deal.

Edited March 16, 2023 by realityplease

[Hedgehog2022]

18 minutes ago, realityplease said:

 

 

The crying Native American was Iron Eyes Cody, an Italian American from Louisiana who claimed Cherokee heritage and played many Native American roles over his lifetime. Though throughout his lifetime he claimed that his father was Cherokee & his mother was Cree, when he died in 1999, his sister said the family's origin was Italian and hailed from Sicily and that Cody was not a Native American at all. 

Ok…I had read several years ago he was Jewish. I didn’t Google it though it looks like you did. 👍

[sistermagpie]

13 hours ago, realityplease said:

Incidentally, in the ad, it wasn't "someone throwing trash out a car window." Cody was paddling down a river in a canoe & seeing the trash polluting the river.

NItpick, but I think there were two ads, one with the highway, one with the river.

[Tara]

On 3/11/2023 at 12:24 AM, realityplease said:

I know there are some out there just itching to disagree with me, but I don't see either of them woke-bashing, but only saying, we may not disagree with your goal though we may disagree (or don't know) how to achieve it.  But picking apart our words or mandating how we should say things - doesn't get us to the goal.

Agree wholeheartedly.

On 3/15/2023 at 4:33 PM, Hedgehog2022 said:

The early 70's was a time of tremendous division in this country...the Vietnam War was still raging, Nixon was still in control and was using his bully pulpit to divide us even more. Hollywood at that time was divided...the old guard of Hollywood elite were in control of the Academy Awards and were mostly ultra conservative...people like John Wayne, Charleton Heston, Bob Hope, etc...dominated the voting block. The younger generation of actors, writers and directors were being marginalized and pushed aside. That particular incident that  Bill was referring to about Marlon Brando's stand in by a Native American woman was lambasted by the conservatives within the Academy including John Wayne who was very aggressive in his rebuke of this incident. Sadly, Bill was wrong in his summation that this helped to bring about change for Native Americans...it did not change their plight and they still live in poverty, depression and a lack of funding for education and other programs that could benefit them. 

John Wayne, Charleston Heston, Bob Hope were old relics in the early 70’s. Nixon may have been using a bully pulpit, but there was no Internet, no cesspool of ignorance that is Twitter, no mass viralness that exists today. Marlon Brando’s standing up for Indians and how they were portrayed in the movies was accepted for what is was worth back then.