Waco: American Apocalypse

[DanaK]

Netflix 3-part docuseries on the infamous 1993 standoff between the FBI and the Branch Davidians, a heavily armed religious group/cult. Premieres March 22 2023

[peachmangosteen]

 

[merylinkid]

That was a lot.  

I don't think Kathy Schroeder ever stopped believing David Koresh was the Messiah.  A messiah who conveniently believes he's the only who gets to have sex.   Funny how that always works that way in these cults.   I literally cannot imagine subjecting my children to that.   But then again I don't understand fundies either.

Timothy McVeigh was actually AT Waco selling stuff?   

Among the incredibly dumb things the Feds did was to immediately arrest Schroeder when she came out.   The negotiators were right, no one would come out then if they knew they would be arrested.   You take her someplace for "rest and rehab" or whatever and THEN arrest her when its all over.   But then the negotiators really weren't being listened to.   The guy builds a rapport over a weeks and then they say "oh yeah, gotta make that middle east trip, BYE."   It was definitely to get him out of the way, but again, really destroyed the chances of getting people out alive.

"We are putting CS in the building but this is not an assault."   The fork its not.   Deploying tear gas is an assault.   

The sniper guy was just too much.   Sure he's upset on camera but that pic of him posing with his gun in the ashes says it all.  He wanted to be GI Joe and save everyone.   But the whole hostage rescue team's desire to play with big toys and make things go bang made it SO MUCH worse.   Thibodeau is a freaking liar but he's right -- you think these people are mentally unstable so you make it WORSE?   Just a hot mess.   And no Janet Reno seeing David Koresh playing with the kids would not have changed her mind.   Anyone remember Elian Gonzalez and the SWAT Raid to go get him?   She would have justified it as "we don't know what he's doing with the kids in there so we need to go get them."   

I was living in Corpus Christi when this all happened.   We watched the fire on tv in the office.  The newspapers said the lady who was asked "where's the guy" didn't just stare down the FBI guy, she turned around and went back in the burning building.   Again i do not understand people like that.

[libgirl2]

Planning on watching it this weekend. 

[Bastet]

On 3/22/2023 at 6:32 PM, merylinkid said:

I don't think Kathy Schroeder ever stopped believing David Koresh was the Messiah. 

My eye roll when she said he fucked her for her godly soul, not for him, could be seen from the International Space Station.

The HRT guy is as delusional as the cult members.  And, yes, that photo of him standing amidst the rubble with his gun confirmed everything I already felt about him.

The only people in this I feel sorry for are the children and the FBI negotiators who were the only ones making progress but kept getting thwarted by their own agency.  (I just love the thinking that if you say something isn't an assault, it suddenly isn't one.)  Yes, it takes time and costs money to resolve things properly, and you're getting scrutinized on live TV every day.  Boo-hoo; lives matter more (yes, even those of his adult followers, whose actions have to be evaluated in the context of his abuses).  Koresh was awful - more awful than this even bothered to detail - but then, as one congressperson said in that montage, everyone who touched the ball fumbled it.  For it to end in an inferno, and then the government acts shocked so few came out?!

Oh, and the ATF guy who said they should abort the mission once Koresh got tipped off about the raid getting overruled was a sympathetic moment, but I don't think their original plan was all that great to begin with; they were always going to whip the followers into a frenzy by acting in a way that legitimized Koresh's "prophecy". 

I also felt for the reporter who pulled over and threw up when she realized the connection between Waco and Oklahoma City.

It seemed to me like the producers thought it was really exciting to include the clip of Timothy McVeigh hanging out at the observation point selling bumper stickers, but American Experience aired that footage long ago.  And this didn't get into how white supremacists took up for the Branch Davidians.  They talked generally about anti-government gun nuts, but not how the Ruby Ridge types specifically so fervently embraced the Davidians as their own - even though the bullshit Koresh was spouting didn't include white supremacy - because they saw "jackbooted thugs" doing their thing again and that's all they needed.

Edited March 25, 2023 by Bastet

[bluegirl147]

On 3/22/2023 at 9:32 PM, merylinkid said:

I don't think Kathy Schroeder ever stopped believing David Koresh was the Messiah.  A messiah who conveniently believes he's the only who gets to have sex.   Funny how that always works that way in these cults.   I literally cannot imagine subjecting my children to that.   But then again I don't understand fundies either.

 

52 minutes ago, Bastet said:

My eye roll when she said he fucked her for her godly soul, not for him, could be seen from the International Space Station.

Her rationalizing Koresh being a pedophile because the girls might have technically been underage but they had been in the cult for a long time was gross. She can tell herself whatever she wants but it won't change the fact her "messiah" was a pedophile and didn't give a damn about her or anyone else.

[Bastet]

9 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

Her rationalizing Koresh being a pedophile because the girls might have technically been underage but they had been in the cult for a long time was gross.

Oh gods, yes -- they might technically have been underage, but in our beliefs, you come of age at 12, so they weren't.  WTF?!

Just like the FBI can't simply say tear gas isn't an assault and it be so, these nutters can't just declare twelve is "of age" and it be true.

[libgirl2]

Seeing all this talk about the content, I'm not sure if I want to watch this or not. Yikes! 

[bluegirl147]

1 hour ago, libgirl2 said:

Seeing all this talk about the content, I'm not sure if I want to watch this or not. Yikes! 

I'm on the third and final episode and I want to slap Kathy Schroeder. But other than that it's a good documentary

 

[Anela]

I’m watching, because I remember all of this unfolding, but I’m having trouble with this woman hand-waving his having sex with children. 

our power keeps blinking, so I might be cut off for a while, anyway.  

On 3/22/2023 at 9:32 PM, merylinkid said:

That was a lot.  

I don't think Kathy Schroeder ever stopped believing David Koresh was the Messiah.  A messiah who conveniently believes he's the only who gets to have sex.   Funny how that always works that way in these cults.   I literally cannot imagine subjecting my children to that.   But then again I don't understand fundies either.

Timothy McVeigh was actually AT Waco selling stuff?   

Among the incredibly dumb things the Feds did was to immediately arrest Schroeder when she came out.   The negotiators were right, no one would come out then if they knew they would be arrested.   You take her someplace for "rest and rehab" or whatever and THEN arrest her when its all over.   But then the negotiators really weren't being listened to.   The guy builds a rapport over a weeks and then they say "oh yeah, gotta make that middle east trip, BYE."   It was definitely to get him out of the way, but again, really destroyed the chances of getting people out alive.

"We are putting CS in the building but this is not an assault."   The fork its not.   Deploying tear gas is an assault.   

The sniper guy was just too much.   Sure he's upset on camera but that pic of him posing with his gun in the ashes says it all.  He wanted to be GI Joe and save everyone.   But the whole hostage rescue team's desire to play with big toys and make things go bang made it SO MUCH worse.   Thibodeau is a freaking liar but he's right -- you think these people are mentally unstable so you make it WORSE?   Just a hot mess.   And no Janet Reno seeing David Koresh playing with the kids would not have changed her mind.   Anyone remember Elian Gonzalez and the SWAT Raid to go get him?   She would have justified it as "we don't know what he's doing with the kids in there so we need to go get them."   

I was living in Corpus Christi when this all happened.   We watched the fire on tv in the office.  The newspapers said the lady who was asked "where's the guy" didn't just stare down the FBI guy, she turned around and went back in the burning building.   Again i do not understand people like that.

I know.  When she said that she was alone with god, through him, that was creepy as hell, too.  So stupid.  That she was having sex with god, that he didn’t do it for himself, he did it for her.  Really? Just stop it.  

[libgirl2]

19 hours ago, Anela said:

I’m watching, because I remember all of this unfolding, but I’m having trouble with this woman hand-waving his having sex with children. 

our power keeps blinking, so I might be cut off for a while, anyway.  

I know.  When she said that she was alone with god, through him, that was creepy as hell, too.  So stupid.  That she was having sex with god, that he didn’t do it for himself, he did it for her.  Really? Just stop it.  

I had to stop watching this because my BP was rising. Was the raid screw up? Yes, but this guy was going to go down in flames with as many people as he could regardless of what happened. And I could not take her. He wasn't a god, he was a nut case. 

I ended up watching a good old fashioned murder mystery on Acorn. My husband did continue watching and understood why I stopped. 

[lovinbob]

On 3/25/2023 at 2:12 PM, Anela said:

I know.  When she said that she was alone with god, through him, that was creepy as hell, too.  

God's like, "Don't look at me!"

Kathy Schroeder was definitely the worst of all of this. David Thibodeau ... seemed like a rational person, but then called the Davidians martyrs because they died for their faith. Yikes! Again, God's like, "SMDH, Not what I asked for."

It's somewhat hard for me to feel sympathy for people who were part of a "faith" that idolized a living man, allowed him to break up their families, and allowed him to rape their children. I know cults are powerful, but that they died rather than surrender to the "government" is disturbing. 

Heather Jones absolutely broke my heart. The most sympathetic person in the show. I hope she's okay. 

[toodywoody]

Kathy was driving me nuts. I can't believe she was saying 12 years old was considered an adult in her faith. Does she still believe that? And considering she had to be told her son needs a hug from her mom, to get her to come out, speaks volumes. I swear.

Heather broke my heart. I wish her mother would have snuck her out before all of this. 

David was a creep. Why are a majority of cult leaders creeps? They use it to brainwash people into believing they are the messiah and that God wants to sleep with their young girls. I will never understand how these people let this happen.

[Welshman in Ca]

15 hours ago, toodywoody said:

David was a creep. Why are a majority of cult leaders creeps? They use it to brainwash people into believing they are the messiah and that God wants to sleep with their young girls. I will never understand how these people let this happen.

Aren't they all creeps by definition? People don't seem to know or care if they are or cults wouldn't be a thing. Just take a look at the way the Catholic church has covered up abuses, a cult that has managed to fool a lot of the world.

[Runningwild]

The negotiators weren’t doing their job. There was no way they were ever going to come out. That Jim Jamar was the one in charge. I don’t know how it could have ended well, but letting Kathy be shown on TV being taken away in handcuffs was a big mistake.  
 

I’m certainly glad she did time though. And she’s still okay with that man raping children. Children that young cannot give consent. 
 

According to Wikipedia, Kathy served 3 years for resisting arrest. 

Edited May 21, 2023 by Runningwild

[merylinkid]

10 hours ago, Runningwild said:

but letting Kathy be shown on TV being taken away in handcuffs was a big mistake.  

that was HUGE.   Why would anyone come out if they were just going to be arrested.   The smart move would have been to put them in a hotel or some place they could keep an eye on them, THEN when it was over arrest the people.   

[gaPeach]

I remember watching this on TV with mixed feelings.  On one hand David Korish was dangerous and a pedophile but on the other hand, the government should have retreated the moment they lost the element of surprise.  That was all they had going for them and when they lost that they needed to go back and regroup.  As we all watched in horror, we saw exactly what happened because they didn't.

On 4/25/2023 at 7:01 PM, toodywoody said:

Kathy was driving me nuts. I can't believe she was saying 12 years old was considered an adult in her faith. Does she still believe that? And considering she had to be told her son needs a hug from her mom, to get her to come out, speaks volumes. I swear.

Drove me nuts too.  She really believes she had sex with God and that David did it for her and not because he was an oily, greasy, self-involved pedophile.  I don't know when they interviewed her but if it was recently for this documentary, and she still sees David as a profit of God, then there is little hope for her.