Lady Edith: Sex and the Single Girl

[helenamonster]

I was actually mad when Edith started getting better style in later seasons. She just annoyed me so much, she didn't deserve that peacock dress or those very flattering headscarves!

[skyways]

I have to agree with GreenKnight here as someone who definitely preferred Mary. She did not grow at all and yes it was likely mostly because of the Pamuk blow for which Edith NEVER took responsibility for, and quite accepted considering that she was never sorry. She meant to ruin Mary. But in later seasons she became indifferent to her digs and learnt to ignore Mary. Mary on the other hand became colder and very unsympathetic. I found myself wishing her a horrible marriage. lol But as Edith VEE Mary.....may it never end! One of the shows most resonant and realistic story lines.

[HunterHunted]

The reason I always come down on Edith's side in the Edith v Mary feud is because the show always felt it necessary to crap all over Edith and have others call her out on being an asshole, but rarely did the same for Mary. Mary could be an awful malicious condescending shrew and the show rarely had other characters tell her that her behavior was awful. This is why a great cheer went up when Tom called Mary a bully in like the penultimate episode. That we had to wait years for the show to acknowledge that Mary sucked as much as Edith is a bit of a gross inequity. And Mary clearly sucked.

[slf]

On 6/17/2018 at 11:52 PM, HunterHunted said:

The reason I always come down on Edith's side in the Edith v Mary feud is because the show always felt it necessary to crap all over Edith and have others call her out on being an asshole, but rarely did the same for Mary. Mary could be an awful malicious condescending shrew and the show rarely had other characters tell her that her behavior was awful. This is why a great cheer went up when Tom called Mary a bully in like the penultimate episode. That we had to wait years for the show to acknowledge that Mary sucked as much as Edith is a bit of a gross inequity. And Mary clearly sucked.

I have to disagree, I remember many people saying that Mary was cold, rude, or had gone too far. Didn't Robert say as much in the series premiere?

I'm struggling to remember many instances of Edith being called out by someone other than Mary, tbh.

Edited January 14, 2019 by slf

[JudyObscure]

7 hours ago, slf said:

I have to disagree, I remember many people saying that Mary was cold, rude, or had gone too far. Didn't Robert say as much in the series premiere?

I'm struggling to remember many instances of Edith being called out by someone other than Mary, tbh.

You may be struggling because, other than the letter, Edith didn't say much to hurt Mary, while Mary had endless snide remarks about Edith, starting well before the letter incident.  I remember a moment while the war was going on when Edith, nearly in tears, had the sad job of taking bad news about Matthew to her father.  Lord Grantham lashed out at her in fury implying she was making something up "to hurt Mary."  Mary always walked on water to him so he blew off all the mean things Mary said, while hating Edith for her one bad act toward Mary --done while she was still very young. I've always blamed Lord Grantham for most of the sibling rivalry between the two women. You don't favor one child that obviously and expect them to be friends.

In the first episode we see him proudly pointing out how the men all swarm around Mary.  When Mary just has to rub it in that she not only has all the men's attention all the time but can even easily get the one older man who Edith has managed to engage in conversation, to turn away from Edith and follow her, no one notices how cruel that is.  Any beautiful woman with a heart would feel sorry for her less pretty younger sister, but Mary always  gloated about it and didn't even want to allow Mary to have the crumbs she left behind.  Maybe if  Mary hadn't been so eager to rub it in Edith's face all the time, the letter business would never have had to happen.

Right up until the end Mary was trying to destroy Edith's one chance at a happy marriage, long after they had grown up and Mary herself had experienced a happy marriage, a child, a long list of romantic suitors, a second chance at love and partial control of Downton, she couldn't stand to see Edith have anything at all.

[AZChristian]

We've been rewatching a lot of Downton over the past month or so as they have been showing it on our local PBS station.  I made up my mind that I was going to watch this time with a completely open mind, knowing how others feel about some of the characters.

We just finished the part where Edith was contacted by the editor (Michael) about writing for his magazine after sending in a letter to the editor.  And Robert's first comment was (paraphrasing), "He just wants you because of your name and title.  He wants to exploit you."  This was said in a way that Robert was saying that he didn't believe Edith had a brain or any real writing ability.  Others stood up for her, but Robert was putting her down.  Mary puts down Edith with every sentence . . . but Robert has trained her to do it.  And Cora's opinion of Edith is that she'll be the spinster daughter who will take care of them in their old age, since no one else will want her.

Parenthetically - I still love John Bates.  He adores Anna, and she him.

[slf]

11 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

You may be struggling because, other than the letter, Edith didn't say much to hurt Mary, while Mary had endless snide remarks about Edith, starting well before the letter incident.

Nope, that's not why at all. Edith took every opportunity to be an ass which is why even the actress' family hated her character during the first season. For example, when the Duke makes it plain that he was just fortune hunting, Edith sneaks up beside Mary to gloat nastily. Also that episode when Mary and Sybil are discussing clothes Edith just has to cut in and be sarcastic about Mary and Patrick. Then when Sybil is helping do Mary's hair Edith, yet again, decides to be rude and mock Mary. And again at dinner with her outburst about the attic. In each of these instances, all of which are just from the premiere, she is the instigator, not Mary. The only time Mary starts with Edith is when they're walking back from the funeral.

11 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Lord Grantham lashed out at her in fury implying she was making something up "to hurt Mary."  Mary always walked on water to him so he blew off all the mean things Mary said, while hating Edith for her one bad act toward Mary --done while she was still very young. 

Robert was fond of implying others were heartless when it was just him misunderstanding the situation - like he did in the series premiere when Mary was trying to clarify if she was mourn Patrick as a cousin or fiancée (bit of a difference) since their engagement wasn't formal and he decided that meant she was a heartless bitch.

I never got the feeling Robert hated Edith at all.

11 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

. I've always blamed Lord Grantham for most of the sibling rivalry between the two women. You don't favor one child that obviously and expect them to be friends.

I've always blamed Edith's jealousy. To me, the scene where Edith tells Mary she'd have taken Patrick "like a shot if you had let me". She wanted Patrick and stupidly blamed Mary for not getting him when that choice was made by their fathers. Patrick also would have had some degree of say so and could have asked to marry Edith rather than Mary if he'd had feelings for her (just as Matthew, at one point, was supposed to marry Sybil rather than Mary) and that didn't happen. Instead of buying a clue, Edith just took it all out on Mary.

11 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

When Mary just has to rub it in that she not only has all the men's attention all the time but can even easily get the one older man who Edith has managed to engage in conversation, to turn away from Edith and follow her, no one notices how cruel that is. 

This didn't happen in the first episode, this happened much later after the Pamuk incident, I think. Mary was joking with Sybil about Strallan's yelling and then:

Lady Edith: As for you giggling like a ridiculous schoolgirl with Cousin Matthew...it was pathetic.

Lady Mary: Oh, poor Edith. I'm sorry Cousin Matthew's proved a disappointment to you.

Lady Edith: Who says he has.

Lady Mary: Matthew? He told me. Oh, sorry, wasn't I supposed to know?

Cora, Countess of Grantham: You were very helpful, Edith, looking after Sir Anthony. You saved the day.

Lady Edith: I enjoyed it. We seem to have a lot to talk about. (walks away)

Lady Mary: Spare me your boasting, please.

Lady Edith: Now who's jealous?

Lady Mary: Jealous? Do you think I couldn't have that old booby if I wanted him?

Lady Edith: Even you can't take every prize.

Lady Mary: Is that a challenge?

Lady Edith: If you like.

As more often than not, Edith decided to pick that fight. The boasting didn't happen within earshot of anyone else so of course no one said anything, and making getting Strallan's attention a game was Edith's choice. It wasn't enough for her to get Strallan, she wanted Mary to lose. Which was season one Edith in a nutshell.

11 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Maybe if  Mary hadn't been so eager to rub it in Edith's face all the time, the letter business would never have had to happen

It never "had" to happen. There's no excuse for it, at all. It was completely out of proportion.

12 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Right up until the end Mary was trying to destroy Edith's one chance at a happy marriage, long after they had grown up and Mary herself had experienced a happy marriage, a child, a long list of romantic suitors, a second chance at love and partial control of Downton, she couldn't stand to see Edith have anything at all.

Mary's ugliest moment on the show. I think Mary saw an opportunity to finally inflict on Edith some of the damage that Edith inflicted on Mary with that letter Edith chose to write.

[kassygreene]

Mary was also really really irritated to discover that everyone else in the family knew about Marigold while she had been deliberately kept in the dark.  For Reasons, Of Course, which she herself would have acknowledged if she'd been told at some point instead of figuring it out for herself.  So I think part of her bitter vengeful fury was driven by her feelings of being duped.

I'm not sure Mary ever figured out just how large a fortune Edith inherited from Michael; not being landed gentry, paying the death duties would not have devastated his estate, and Michael seemed like a person who kept his financial affairs in order.  But she had to know that Edith had money of her own.  She could sneer at the source, but Edith wasn't facing a decades-long payment schedule for Matthew's death duties.

Being forever out-ranked by Edith would have had a major influence on Mary's feelings too.

[Roseanna]

On ‎15‎.‎1‎.‎2019 at 2:26 AM, slf said:

I think Mary saw an opportunity to finally inflict on Edith some of the damage that Edith inflicted on Mary with that letter Edith chose to write.

No, there was no indication that Mary wanted to revenge on Edith about the letter after she made even by stopping her sister to marry Strallan in the end of S1.

Her reasons to reveal Marigold's birth to Bertie were all about her own envy: because Robert had finally shown admiration towards Edith because her magazine (although Robert had shown trust in Mary's abilities in managing Downton but she just couldn't stand that she wasn't the number one even for some minutes), because as a Marchioness Edith was going to have a higher social position than Mary who had only a courtesy title Lady (although she had control over Downton), and because Mary was hurt about Talbot leaving in the morning (although she had herself caused it and could have simply sent him a message to return).  

[Roseanna]

On ‎15‎.‎1‎.‎2019 at 2:26 AM, slf said:

Mary was joking with Sybil about Strallan's yelling and then:

Lady Edith: As for you giggling like a ridiculous schoolgirl with Cousin Matthew...it was pathetic.

Lady Mary: Oh, poor Edith. I'm sorry Cousin Matthew's proved a disappointment to you.

Lady Edith: Who says he has.

Lady Mary: Matthew? He told me. Oh, sorry, wasn't I supposed to know?

Cora, Countess of Grantham: You were very helpful, Edith, looking after Sir Anthony. You saved the day.

Lady Edith: I enjoyed it. We seem to have a lot to talk about. (walks away)

Lady Mary: Spare me your boasting, please.

Lady Edith: Now who's jealous?

Lady Mary: Jealous? Do you think I couldn't have that old booby if I wanted him?

Lady Edith: Even you can't take every prize.

Lady Mary: Is that a challenge?

Lady Edith: If you like.

As more often than not, Edith decided to pick that fight. The boasting didn't happen within earshot of anyone else so of course no one said anything, and making getting Strallan's attention a game was Edith's choice. It wasn't enough for her to get Strallan, she wanted Mary to lose.

Yes, and Mary wants always win, however trivial the matter. But although Mary is so jealous about the attention Robert shows to Matthew that she runs from the room in tears, she only competes with Edith which was like a NHL player competing with a junior player, or a two-year-old who can't give even the smallest piece of cake to a younger sibling.

Mary has a lot of baggage: she wasn't born a boy and can't inherit Downton, she can't understand why her father didn't fight for her fortune (although it would have meant losing Downton), there are already rumours that she has slept with a man outside marriage and now her mother says that she has to marry any suitable man to save her reputation.

In this scene she just can't stand that Edith chides her behavior (which was indeed bad although the situation was funny) - she at once strikes back by revealing what Matthew told her. And when her mother for once tries to save the situation by complimenting Edith's behavior and Edith is pleased with it and Strallan's attention, she can't stand it and (although not at all interested in Strallan but instead noticing that Matthew is interesting after all) so she decides to show that she can have the only man who could become interested in Edith - thereby losing Matthew who refuses to be her puppet.      

[Roseanna]

On ‎23‎.‎2‎.‎2018 at 11:15 AM, whateverdgaf said:

As for Marigold, yes her plan was poorly thought out, because she was desperate. Funny that, a mother desperate to be with her child. And as stupid as her plan was, Mr Drewe agreed to it. He agreed to tak her in so that Edith could be close. And then he backed out on the deal. Mrs Drewe's feelings were mainly her husband's responsiblity, not Edith's. It was Mr Drewe who should have prioritised his wife over anyone else, and it is Mr Drewe who has to take on the marjority of the blame for his wife's pain. Not Edith.  Instead of trusting his wife and finding a way for her to understand the situation, he overlooked her completely. And unlike Edith, he didn't have the excuse of trying to be near his only child. He wasn't going through Edith's agony and fear and therefore shuld have had more clarity on the situation. For all the blame Edith gets, it's Mr Drewe that was mainly responsible for his wife being hurt for deciding to leave her out in the dark. Edith should have been more considerate, but if it came down between her being with her daughter and hurting another woman, then Edith would chose her daughter. Like many other women.

And Edith had limited options. She couldn't open both of them to abuse and dissaproval; because if Marigold was discovered then she would certainly be treated as an outcast. For Edith to have adopted Marigold after a year in Switzerland 'learning French' would have blatantly obvious to everyone involved. Meanwhile Edith was living in agony not knowing what had happened to the man she loved, with the only family who knew pressuring her to send Marigold away completely. So if her decision was not rational, would anyone's be? With all the grief and doubt she was suffering through at the time.

Her actions were wrong, no one is disputing that. But were they unforgivable? For a mother in a terrible situation to go to extreme lengths to see her child? I can't see it.

I can sympathize with Edith as a mother who wanted to see her child, especially in the situation when her lover was missing. And of course I understand that as an unmarried mother at the time Edith had limited options.

On the other hand, Edith's relationship with Marigold was always about her feelings, never about the interest of her child. Edith first breastfeeded lMarigold, the left her in the care of a Swiss couple, then after a few months brought her to Drewes' home, suddenly took her away and brought her to London, then put her in the nursery of Downton, and finally decided to take her to her new home - all in a few years.

Of course one didn't at that know how harmful the separations are to young children.      

[slf]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

No, there was no indication that Mary wanted to revenge on Edith about the letter after she made even by stopping her sister to marry Strallan in the end of S1.

I never said Mary hadn't lashed out at Edith before. I said she finally had the opportunity to inflict on Edith the damage Edith inflicted on her. The potential fallout from Marigold's parentage being revealed would've been comparable to the fallout Mary suffered after Edith wrote that letter.

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

Yes, and Mary wants always win, however trivial the matter. But although Mary is so jealous about the attention Robert shows to Matthew that she runs from the room in tears, she only competes with Edith which was like a NHL player competing with a junior player, or a two-year-old who can't give even the smallest piece of cake to a younger sibling.    

So? Edith is grown by the point all of this happens. Edith being younger doesn't entitle her to be constantly rude, constantly on the attack, without anyone responding in kind. If Edith were 12 or something during that season you'd have a point but Edith was an adult who more often than not got what was coming to her.

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

In this scene she just can't stand that Edith chides her behavior (which was indeed bad although the situation was funny) - she at once strikes back by revealing what Matthew told her. And when her mother for once tries to save the situation by complimenting Edith's behavior and Edith is pleased with it and Strallan's attention, she can't stand it and (although not at all interested in Strallan but instead noticing that Matthew is interesting after all) so she decides to show that she can have the only man who could become interested in Edith - thereby losing Matthew who refuses to be her puppet.      

Nope. Mary finds it amusing that Edith is only chiding her because Matthew was in cahoots with Mary at dinner after having rejected Edith. Had Matthew not rejected Edith and turned to her laughing at Strallan's outburst I don't doubt for a second Edith would've been laughing with him. Thus Mary's sarcastic response. Edith tried to get a hit in with "we seem to have a lot to talk about" which Mary picked up on thus her comment about Edith boasting.

Yes, both women lost their men that night after behaving immaturely and deserved it.

Edited February 2, 2019 by slf

[Roseanna]

21 minutes ago, slf said:

I never said Mary hadn't lashed out at Edith before. I said she finally had the opportunity to inflict on Edith the damage Edith inflicted on her. The potential fallout from Marigold's parentage being revealed would've been comparable to the fallout Mary suffered after Edith wrote that letter.

As I said, there is no indication that this was Mary's motive but there were several others.

Actually Edith's letter about Pamuk hadn't even mentioned for years. Edith had a possibility to try to ruin Mary's relationship with Matthew by relieving it but didn't. 

No, these deeds weren't similar. There was Marigold, an innocent child, whose life Mary would have ruined if Bertie had been another kind of man and told her parentage to the world.

[slf]

5 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

As I said, there is no indication that this was Mary's motive but there were several others.

Actually Edith's letter about Pamuk hadn't even mentioned for years. Edith had a possibility to try to ruin Mary's relationship with Matthew by relieving it but didn't. 

No, these deeds weren't similar. There was Marigold, an innocent child, whose life Mary would have ruined if Bertie had been another kind of man and told her parentage to the world.

I disagree, I think there was plenty indication.

I'm not giving Edith a gold star for having the opportunity to try to do even more damage to Mary but deciding not to, especially since there wasn't really an opportunity to do so. Matthew came around once he knew. The nuclear option was Mary's; outing Edith to the whole family as the letter writer. 

The deeds are more similar than running off Strallan. (What consideration did Edith have for any children Mary would have? The disregard for these things was appalling all around.)

Edited February 2, 2019 by slf

[Roseanna]

35 minutes ago, slf said:

So? Edith is grown by the point all of this happens. Edith being younger doesn't entitle her to be constantly rude, constantly on the attack, without anyone responding in kind. If Edith were 12 or something during that season you'd have a point but Edith was an adult who more often than not got what was coming to her.

Mary continued to snipe on Edith even later when she gave no cause (f.ex. during the Highland Holiday about Gregson).  Then she was happily married to Matthew, but after he died, she became intolerable.

2 minutes ago, slf said:

I disagree, I think there was plenty indication.

Please tell where.

[Crs97]

I swear that if the ultimate Mary/Edith confrontation has been written better we could have avoided all this back and forth that continues to this day.  Of course Mary would have brought up the Turkish letter and being called a whore and being shunned by society and missing out on years with Matthew due to her shame and the fear after Edith made it public.  Their fight could have been an honest rehashing of all their anomisities that would have felt honest and authentic and perhaps led to  an acceptable solution for all.  Instead Edith just got to play victim, which left Mary supporters sputtering because Edith never faced any consequences for her behavior.

Edith could have been a much more complex, compelling character in the hands of a better writer.  

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, slf said:

So? Edith is grown by the point all of this happens. Edith being younger doesn't entitle her to be constantly rude, constantly on the attack, without anyone responding in kind. If Edith were 12 or something during that season you'd have a point but Edith was an adult who more often than not got what was coming to her.

Edith's behavior seems indeed silly to an outsider. But I suppose that it was the only way she could get the attention: even a bad attention is bettter than no attention at all. Even an attack that ended in the defeat was better than giving up.

In the end Edith grew up, but Mary didn't - she became worse.  

[slf]

34 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Mary continued to snipe on Edith even later when she gave no cause (f.ex. during the Highland Holiday about Gregson).  Then she was happily married to Matthew, but after he died, she became intolerable.

Please tell where.

Why should Mary forgive Edith and be nice to her when Edith never apologized or took responsibility for what she did? Edith isn't some special angel everyone has to forgive. 

Mary wasn't a fan of disproportionate responses. If Edith made a remark, Mary would make one back. It was Edith who believed a a comment deserved a slap and a slap deserved a shot.

I haven't seen a credible argument made that Mary's motive was anything less than revenge for the Pamuk letter.

Quote

 

Edith's behavior seems indeed silly to an outsider. But I suppose that it was the only way she could get the attention: even a bad attention is bettter than no attention at all. Even an attack that ended in the defeat was better than giving up.

In the end Edith grew up, but Mary didn't - she became worse

 

Edith's behavior was more than silly, it was petty, vindictive, pathetic, and intentional. I don't agree that she did any of it for attention, but I feel she did that's honestly even more pathetic. Like, learn a trade or be useful somehow. Stop picking finds then whining when you lose, Edith.

Edith eventually learned to stop poking the bear all the time. In terms of growing up I'd say that's setting the bar pretty low. I would have liked to see her take responsibility for what she'd done and apologize to Mary, maybe finally talk to Robert about the Patrick situation if that was ever genuinely an issue for her and not just another way to play victim, apologize to the Drewes for the situation she put them in, etc. In my opinion, Edith was self-centered straight to the end though, only concerned with getting her own happy ending.

Edited February 2, 2019 by slf

[Roseanna]

11 minutes ago, slf said:

Why should Mary forgive Edith and be nice to her when Edith never apologized or took responsibility for what she did? Edith isn't some special angel everyone has to forgive.

No, but that's not the point in forgiving. In the biblical parable the father forgives the prodical son even before he even asks for it. 

Irl many people cause most harm to themselves by not being able to forgive which means simply: let it go.    

[Crs97]

5 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

No, but that's not the point in forgiving. In the biblical parable the father forgives the prodical son even before he even asks for it. 

So are you saying Edith should never have sent the letter that seems to have started it all because she should have forgiven Mary for any slights during childhood?

27 minutes ago, slf said:

Like, learn a trade or be useful somehow.

That is what I mean about the writing for her.  During the war she learned how to drive.  I didn’t like her character, but thought this would be an interesting growth opportunity for her that would make me like her.  Instead, it turned into her kissing the married farmer.  Then she is offered a job writing, and I thought it would be a great juxtaposition of married sister on the estate with single sister working in the city.  Instead, it turned into affair with married editor.  Everytime they had a good idea for her, they ruined it.  

[Roseanna]

30 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

So are you saying Edith should never have sent the letter that seems to have started it all because she should have forgiven Mary for any slights during childhood?

Irl it would indeed have been better if Edith had moved from home and started to study or work. Distance from Mary would surely have helped in time (and nowadays she would gone to the therapy).

In the show, however, it was necessary that Mary slept with Pamuk and he died in her bed, that Edith wrote the letter etc. Otherwise there would have no plot. at least one where there were high stakes.      

[slf]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

No, but that's not the point in forgiving. In the biblical parable the father forgives the prodical son even before he even asks for it. 

Irl many people cause most harm to themselves by not being able to forgive which means simply: let it go.    

There is no universally agreed upon reason for forgiving. And I'm an atheist so biblical parables aren't my thing. I think it's not always healthy to forgive someone who hasn't shown any remorse. And for me that's the most damning issue w/r/t Edith: she never once showed, even privately with only the audience as witnesses, any remorse for what she did.

I generally feel the same about this whether it's in a show or real life and treat it the same. Makes it easier to discuss with others.

Edited February 2, 2019 by slf

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, slf said:

I'm not giving Edith a gold star for having the opportunity to try to do even more damage to Mary but deciding not to, especially since there wasn't really an opportunity to do so. Matthew came around once he knew. 

Edith had many opportunities but evidently she learned that revenge only leads to escalation. 

That Matthew doesn't care about Mary's past after the war, doesn't necessarily mean that he would thought in the same way earlier when he had  less experience.

3 hours ago, Crs97 said:

missing out on years with Matthew due to her shame and the fear after Edith made it public.  

That Mary lost years with Matthew had nothing to do with Edith. Mary couldn't decide in time if, in case Cora's baby was a boy, she could marry Matthew even if he were a middle-class layer and she dared tell Matthew about her past, 

1 hour ago, slf said:

I think it's not always healthy to forgive someone who hasn't shown any remorse. And for me that's the most damning issue w/r/t Edith: she never once showed, even privately with only the audience as witnesses, any remorse for what she did.

Well, that people say "I am sorry" doesn't prove that they also mean it. I value more people who stop doing the same way even when they have a chance.

Mary failed in this respect miserably whereas Edith in the end was too noble towards her. 

[Crs97]

13 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

That Mary lost years with Matthew had nothing to do with Edith. Mary couldn't decide in time if, in case Cora's baby was a boy, she could marry Matthew even if he were a middle-class layer and she dared tell Matthew about her past, 

I disagree with this take whole heartedly and think it was clear by her acting and the text that while her aunt talked about it, Mary’s true worry was never about the baby but always feeling like she had to tell Matthew, which was compounded by the rumor Edith fueled.

This line of conversation is better suited for the Mary/Edith topic, and I have said my piece about the writers screwing up Edith by letting her wallow in perpetual victim hood.  As I said earlier, when Bertie had to apologize to her for her not telling him about Marigold, even my husband threw up his hands.  I don’t think the writers allowed her to grow at all, which is unfortunate.  Clearly YMMV.

[slf]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

Well, that people say "I am sorry" doesn't prove that they also mean it. I value more people who stop doing the same way even when they have a chance.

Mary failed in this respect miserably whereas Edith in the end was too noble towards her. 

Agree to disagree. Nothing I saw suggested Edith actually grew as a person. Having her secret outed didn't lead to any epiphanies regarding her treatment of Mary. No, she thought it was worse when it was done to her. Self-centered to the end.

To clarify, I wouldn't have wanted Edith to just say the words, I would have wanted her to express true remorse. But she was incapable of that kind of self-reflection, humility, regret, sincerity, and concern. Edith, Edith, Edith.

46 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

I disagree with this take whole heartedly and think it was clear by her acting and the text that while her aunt talked about it, Mary’s true worry was never about the baby but always feeling like she had to tell Matthew, which was compounded by the rumor Edith fueled.

Agreed. Cora specifically mentions this to Violet.

Edited February 2, 2019 by slf

[Roseanna]

14 hours ago, Crs97 said:

I disagree with this take whole heartedly and think it was clear by her acting and the text that while her aunt talked about it, Mary’s true worry was never about the baby but always feeling like she had to tell Matthew, which was compounded by the rumor Edith fueled.

The crux of the matter weren't the rumors. Mary hesitated to tell Matthew that she wasn't a virgin.

If she told him, she was afraid to lose him. But if she married him without telling him, she would always be afraid of revelation and if it was revelead, he would feel betrayed by her, if not for the matter itself because she didn't trust him enough to tell. 

[Roseanna]

14 hours ago, slf said:

Agree to disagree. Nothing I saw suggested Edith actually grew as a person. Having her secret outed didn't lead to any epiphanies regarding her treatment of Mary. No, she thought it was worse when it was done to her. Self-centered to the end.

It's true Edith did say some truths to Mary but not worse than Tom did. Nobody would in the situation like that have had an ability to be fair. 

However, in the conversation with Bertie Edith didn't blame Mary but took the whole resonsibility to herself and didn't even plead "I was going to tell but I didn't dare to do it". In the conversation with her editor she didn't blame Mary but spoke of their life-long feud. And finally, she did go to Mary's wedding to be reconciled with her sister - who, against the advice of Granny, had failed to do so.

[JudyObscure]

Questions for you experts regarding the Pamuk affair:

The show implied that  Edith's letter ruined Mary and that she would be shunned by society and have no chance to marry well.  Her grandmother even thought she might have to go to Italy to find a husband.  ( I confess I was looking forward to this, because I heartedly disliked  Mary from the moment Matthew arrived and she tried so hard to make him feel small and beneath her.)  But, did we ever see any of this?  Mary always seemed to have a crowd of admiring young men of her own class competing for her attention.  Eventually, there was the  newspaper man who blackmailed her into an engagement because he had the information, but blackmail doesn't work if it's already common knowledge.

Where exactly was the information leak?  Was it Edith's letter or was it from one of the servants?  I've always been confused about that.

Did Thomas ever get into any trouble for leading Pamuk to Mary's bedroom?

[Roseanna]

33 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Questions for you experts regarding the Pamuk affair:

The show implied that  Edith's letter ruined Mary and that she would be shunned by society and have no chance to marry well.  Her grandmother even thought she might have to go to Italy to find a husband.  ( I confess I was looking forward to this, because I heartedly disliked  Mary from the moment Matthew arrived and she tried so hard to make him feel small and beneath her.)  But, did we ever see any of this?  Mary always seemed to have a crowd of admiring young men of her own class competing for her attention.  Eventually, there was the  newspaper man who blackmailed her into an engagement because he had the information, but blackmail doesn't work if it's already common knowledge.

Where exactly was the information leak?  Was it Edith's letter or was it from one of the servants?  I've always been confused about that.

Did Thomas ever get into any trouble for leading Pamuk to Mary's bedroom?

Servants' gossip with their collegues in other households started the rumor but Edith's letter to the Turkish ambassador confirmed that it was true. But although there was much ado how Mary's future, i.e. her possibility to marry a wealthy and titled man, would be ruined, nothing serious actually happened and in the end she got Matthew who didn't mind. 

It was just like with Edith and Bertie although a child out of wedlock would irl surely prevented a marriage with a marquis if not with an estate agent. This show is really a fairytale. 

[JudyObscure]

48 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

It was just like with Edith and Bertie although a child out of wedlock would irl surely prevented a marriage with a marquis if not with an estate agent. This show is really a fairytale.

Truly.  Watching "The Crown," has reminded me of how society viewed such things in the not too distant past.  So many things would have been considered scandalous that only raised eyebrows on the show. (Rose and the band leader, would have attracted so much attention her parents would have heard about it in India.)  When Edith was jilted at the altar, I expected people to speculate that it must have been because he had discovered some hanky-panky in Edith's past, and all the rumor's about Mary's past would have  surfaced in a, "Those Crowley girls are shocking!" sort of way. In real life, if "Edith's  friend" had succeeded in his mission to divorce his mentally ill wife in Germany, her family would still  probably have been against her marrying a divorced man.  Edith and Mary were both inexplicably reckless about sex considering the consequences at the time.

[slf]

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

It's true Edith did say some truths to Mary but not worse than Tom did. Nobody would in the situation like that have had an ability to be fair.

Edith didn't say some truths, she was insulting and rude. Which Tom almost never was to Mary so I don't follow the comparison.

3 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Questions for you experts regarding the Pamuk affair:

The show implied that  Edith's letter ruined Mary and that she would be shunned by society and have no chance to marry well.  Her grandmother even thought she might have to go to Italy to find a husband.  ( I confess I was looking forward to this, because I heartedly disliked  Mary from the moment Matthew arrived and she tried so hard to make him feel small and beneath her.)  But, did we ever see any of this?  Mary always seemed to have a crowd of admiring young men of her own class competing for her attention.  Eventually, there was the  newspaper man who blackmailed her into an engagement because he had the information, but blackmail doesn't work if it's already common knowledge.

Where exactly was the information leak?  Was it Edith's letter or was it from one of the servants?  I've always been confused about that.

Did Thomas ever get into any trouble for leading Pamuk to Mary's bedroom?

There was gossip among the servants that spread throughout various households. A friend of Carson's wrote him a letter to tell him about it and he showed it to Cora. They were able to mostly contain it all until Edith wrote a letter to the Turkish embassy and it was considered factual since Edith actually signed the letter. Word quickly spread through upperclass society - Violet received a letter about it and confronted Cora. Mary went away to London to stay with her aunt where she was shut out of society and the family began to suspect she might have to look outside of England to find a husband. Evenly Napier visited Mary in London and told her that, despite what she might think, he was not the origin of the rumor, her sister was which is why everyone accepted the story as truth. Mary stopped receiving offers or even interest from respectable men - only the newspaper asshole showed any interest in her and he had to result to blackmailing her with the threat of taking a rumor which was discussed only among the upper classes and their servants and turning it into a front page story that everyone in the country would know about* - and to a degree had to be saved by Matthew.

*This is truly were Edith got lucky. Had that happened I have no doubt newspaper guy would have made sure to include the fact that Edith had actually signed the damn letter and that would have been the end of it.

Edited February 3, 2019 by slf

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, slf said:

Edith didn't say some truths, she was insulting and rude. Which Tom almost never was to Mary so I don't follow the comparison.

Execpt that Edith called Mary a bitch (which was just a right word to descibe her deed), he and Tom said exactly the same to Mary: that she was unhappy, and wanted to make everybody else unhappy. And both called her a liar when she died to deny it.

[Roseanna]

7 hours ago, slf said:

only the newspaper asshole showed any interest in her and he had to result to blackmailing her with the threat of taking a rumor 

 

If you mean Carlisle, he didn't blackmail Mary but she came to him and asked for his help when Carson's wife blackmailed her and Anna. They made a honest deal, being just as cold, calculated and materialistic human beings. 

In many stories Carlisle would have been a hero as he didn't care that Mary was "damaged goods" and did everything in his power (including engagement) to protect her, but she was such a snob that she couldn't marry with a man who bought a house and pieces of furnitures, not inherited them.

Later Carlisle was made a monster who tried to force Mary to marriage, in order to justify how badly she treated him badly, most of all mooning over Matthew.         

Edited February 3, 2019 by Roseanna
Adding last sentence

[Roseanna]

8 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Truly.  Watching "The Crown," has reminded me of how society viewed such things in the not too distant past.  So many things would have been considered scandalous that only raised eyebrows on the show. (Rose and the band leader, would have attracted so much attention her parents would have heard about it in India.)  When Edith was jilted at the altar, I expected people to speculate that it must have been because he had discovered some hanky-panky in Edith's past, and all the rumor's about Mary's past would have  surfaced in a, "Those Crowley girls are shocking!" sort of way. In real life, if "Edith's  friend" had succeeded in his mission to divorce his mentally ill wife in Germany, her family would still  probably have been against her marrying a divorced man.  Edith and Mary were both inexplicably reckless about sex considering the consequences at the time.

Yes they were.

On the other hand, their parents' marriage was just as exceptional at the time when the aristocracy used to have affairs during weekend parties in the country houses.   

[slf]

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

If you mean Carlisle, he didn't blackmail Mary but she came to him and asked for his help when Carson's wife blackmailed her and Anna. They made a honest deal, being just as cold, calculated and materialistic human beings. 

In many stories Carlisle would have been a hero as he didn't care that Mary was "damaged goods" and did everything in his power (including engagement) to protect her, but she was such a snob that she couldn't marry with a man who bought a house and pieces of furnitures, not inherited them.

Later Carlisle was made a monster who tried to force Mary to marriage, in order to justify how badly she treated him badly, most of all mooning over Matthew.         

Carlisle did resort to trying blackmail. Robert sussed that out, as well (in the Christmas special, IIRC), as Mary's motivation for staying with Carlisle.

Carlisle was never retconned. We hear about him before we meet him and what we hear isn't good. It's confirmed within just a few scenes that his reputation is justified.

[Roseanna]

15 hours ago, slf said:

Carlisle did resort to trying blackmail. Robert sussed that out, as well (in the Christmas special, IIRC), as Mary's motivation for staying with Carlisle.

Carlisle was never retconned. We hear about him before we meet him and what we hear isn't good. It's confirmed within just a few scenes that his reputation is justified.

Many heroes have a bad reputation, the most famous one was of course Rhett Butler. Some even rape the heroine. All is forgiven if only the heroine falls in love in the hero in the end.

Carlisle never did anything really bad. He helped Mary, accepted her just like she was and waited for her to decide the wedding date (he never came to Downton with a wedding licence in his pocket like Henry!). He was quite understandable annoyed that Mary mooned over Matthew and felt evident sympathy for Lavinia. And whatever he threatened to do, he didn't even publish the story about Mary's past after she broke the engagement.

Carlisle must be presented "bad" for otherwise he should have died like Lavinia.

[slf]

10 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Many heroes have a bad reputation, the most famous one was of course Rhett Butler. Some even rape the heroine. All is forgiven if only the heroine falls in love in the hero in the end.

Carlisle never did anything really bad. He helped Mary, accepted her just like she was and waited for her to decide the wedding date (he never came to Downton with a wedding licence in his pocket like Henry!). He was quite understandable annoyed that Mary mooned over Matthew and felt evident sympathy for Lavinia. And whatever he threatened to do, he didn't even publish the story about Mary's past after she broke the engagement.

Carlisle must be presented "bad" for otherwise he should have died like Lavinia.

Yikes. Anyone who rapes isn't a hero, I don't care if the misogynistic writing has the heroine fall in love with him. 

Carlisle not continuing to blackmail a woman into marrying him doesn't make him an okay guy in my book. That he even tried it makes him scum.

Anyway, this is the Edith thread not the Carlisle thread so I agree with everyone who's said that Edith had the best wedding dress on the show.

Edited February 5, 2019 by slf

[Roseanna]

On ‎15‎.‎1‎.‎2019 at 2:53 AM, kassygreene said:

Mary was also really really irritated to discover that everyone else in the family knew about Marigold while she had been deliberately kept in the dark.  For Reasons, Of Course, which she herself would have acknowledged if she'd been told at some point instead of figuring it out for herself.  So I think part of her bitter vengeful fury was driven by her feelings of being duped.

Mary wasn't exactly duped. Only Aunt Rosamund was in the secret from the beginning, having guessed why Edith was the whole night out. Edith didn't her Granny (Violet fugured out why Edith wanted to go to Switzerland and why she was suddenly interested in a farmer's child), nor her mother (Mrs Drewe told Cora), nor her father (Robert figured out seeing that Marigold looked like Gregson), nor Tom (who figured out because in his family there were "many Marigolds"). None of the family members had a right to tell Mary as it was Edith's secret and she had forbidden that.

Mary had only herself to blame: she was blind to things that became clear even to Robert because she always underestimated Edith, and Edith didn't tell Mary because her sister's permanent lack of empathy and sheer cruelty when Gregson was missing and then found dead.  

[Roseanna]

On ‎23‎.‎2‎.‎2018 at 1:15 PM, slf said:

Edith wasn't abused a day in her life! Edith was the spoiled daughter of one of, if not the, wealthiest families in the county. She had countless opportunities before her and chose to do nothing for years but sit around and feel sorry for herself. She fixated on men (Patrick, Matthew, Strallan) brought around for Mary, seeing gaining their attention and affection as a way to stick it to her sister, also for years.

Edith wasn't spoiled at all. An upper-class girl she had only material security, but no emotial support from anyone in her family especially in S1. She hadn't "countless opportunities" - befor the war the Crawley girls were brought up in such a way that her only chance was to marry well. Mary and Edith believed (only Sybil was more independent) but Edith's only chance (Strallan) failed because of Mary - which I think was quite good because that would have made a dull story.

There is no indication that Edith didn't care Patrick and Matthew for themselves and, most of all, because she wanted to get married: she liked the fake Patrick whom Mary wasn't interested, and in S1 Mary first showed that she didn't want to marry Matthew. It was evident that Edith believed to be in love with Stralan and when Mary was engaged and with Matthew she again did everything to do so. And of course Mary wasn't interested in Gregson nor Bertie at all nor neither in her. 

During the war it was Mary who concentrated only her own problems and never did any war effort but to sing a couple of songs until Matthew was wounded. Instead, Edith didn't sit home and feel sorry for herself but helped wounded officers even though nobody in her family didn't even notice it. 

After being jilted by Strallan Edith was desperate exactly one night and rose up the next morning. Soon she began her writing career and later her thoughts circulated around Marigold.  

It's clear that the chief reason why Edith, even after inhering Gregson's flat, stayed in Downton was just the same why Tom returned from Boston: the characters had to be in the same place for most time. Poor Tom never even got his own home, unlike Violet, Isobel and Bateses. 

[JudyObscure]

If Edith flirted with men who had been brought around for Mary, it was because no man was ever  invited to Downton with Edith in mind and that was about the only way the girls were likely to meet men of their class.  That's just one of many bits of evidence that Edith was anything but spoiled.  People aren't spoiled because their parents have money, they're spoiled because their parents act like the sun rises and sets on them, anticipate their every need, and tell them how marvelous and beautiful they are all the time.  In Downton all that focus went to Mary, even Carson was besotted with her.  The scene where Mary comes down the staircase in her wedding dress,and Lord Grantham and Carson both stand there drooling, made me nauseated.  Cora even admitted to Robert, "We always talk about Mary, we never talk about Edith."

Edited February 6, 2019 by JudyObscure

[Roseanna]

On ‎28‎.‎2‎.‎2018 at 4:14 AM, TheGreenKnight said:

I think it was about more than clothes....... Patrick, her looks, her lack of suitors, the list goes on.

 

On ‎28‎.‎2‎.‎2018 at 12:10 PM, slf said:

That's actually worse since none of those things are Mary's fault.

But some of them were Cora's fault.

We see later when Edith got clothes of right kind that she wasn't ugly at all, indeed quite the opposite, and more than looks, she simply radiated with Gregson and Bertie. Cora could have, indeed her duty as a mother should have, to learn Edith to choose clothes where she looked her best as well as learn her to discuss with men without looking "too eager". And as, as it was evident, Edith had no success among younger men, Cora could have invited older men to Downton. Or at least encourage her to think that there was other options in life than to get married which she didn't do even after the war when many suitable single men were fallen.

Most of all, as a mother Cora failed in the most mportant matter: she hadn'tr treated her daughters impartiality and fairly, learning them that also other things were important than to look pretty and charm men, such as a kind heart, or at least stopped the sibling rivalry at least after Mary and Edith's teen age.  

39 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

If Edith flirted with men who had brought around for Mary, it was because no man was ever  invited to Downton with Edith in mind and that was about the only way the girls were likely to meet men of their class.  That's just one of many bits of evidence that Edith was anything but spoiled.  People aren't spoiled because their parents have money, they're spoiled because their parents act like the sun rises and sets on them, anticipate their every need, and tell them how marvelous and beautiful they are all the time.  In Downton all that focus went to Mary, even Carson was besotted with her.  The scene where Mary comes down the staircase for her wedding and Lord Grantham and Carson both stand their drooling made me nauseated.  Cora even admitted to Robert, "We always talk about Mary, we never talk about Edith."

I think it was mostly Carson who spoiled Mary. He never saw anything wrong in her behavior whereas her parents sometimes did.

[slf]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Edith wasn't spoiled at all. An upper-class girl she had only material security, but no emotial support from anyone in her family especially in S1. She hadn't "countless opportunities" - befor the war the Crawley girls were brought up in such a way that her only chance was to marry well. Mary and Edith believed (only Sybil was more independent) but Edith's only chance (Strallan) failed because of Mary - which I think was quite good because that would have made a dull story.

Quote

People aren't spoiled because their parents have money, they're spoiled because their parents act like the sun rises and sets on them, anticipate their every need, and tell them how marvelous and beautiful they are all the time

There are many ways to be spoiled. I was born and raised in the third class, quite poor, and knew tons of other kids from similar backgrounds who were spoiled because their parents coddled them and never made them learn to take care of themselves (this was worse among the boys). I've known middle class people who couldn't even do their own laundry because mommy always did it for them. Paris Hilton, a 1%, did an interview where she had to ask her sister what a washing machine was called because she didn't know. Spoiled. People who have spent their lives being protected from the consequences of their actions, from having to earn their own way, are spoiled. Every one of the Crawley girls, like all members of their class, where spoiled. Edith was no exception. "What about my dress?!" Remember that? I mean, sure, everyone thought Carson was having a heart attack - the man couldn't even stand - but hey, you know what was more important to Edith than calling for a doctor? Her dress. I call that pretty damn spoiled.

Edith did indeed have countless opportunities. Noblesse oblige. It would have been expected of her, actually. Some kind of charity work, to be the patron of something perhaps. She could have taken up some kind of artistic past time or something like horse riding, attended events, etc. She was an Earl's daughter, she had more privileges than the vast overwhelming majority of the women in England (and many more countries besides).

W/r/t Edith having romantic opportunities - she was written, specifically, as a woman who chose not to attend events and engage in normal social activities and so didn't have as many friends or suitors. People may not like that writing choice but it was part of her characterization. Mary wasn't favored by her parents in this area. She was the one who first wrote to Evelyn Napier, and was considering him as a potential husband. Cora became involved in that later. Pushing Patrick and then Matthew on Mary had nothing to do with preference (Mary, after all, didn't want either) but rather tradition. Strallan was brought in as a Hail Mary.

Edited February 6, 2019 by slf

[Roseanna]

16 hours ago, slf said:

Edith did indeed have countless opportunities. Noblesse oblige. It would have been expected of her, actually. Some kind of charity work, to be the patron of something perhaps. She could have taken up some kind of artistic past time or something like horse riding, attended events, etc. She was an Earl's daughter, she had more privileges than the vast overwhelming majority of the women in England (and many more countries besides).

I don't remenber that Mary was interested in charity. As she said to Matthew, her life was waiting for marriage. 

Generally, priviledges aren't the same as opportunities, they can rather be a prison. Of the Crawley girls, only Sybil had an independent spirit to break from the prison of priviledges and become a nurse and even that demanded the war. 

[slf]

On 2/7/2019 at 2:09 AM, Roseanna said:

I don't remenber that Mary was interested in charity. As she said to Matthew, her life was waiting for marriage. 

Generally, priviledges aren't the same as opportunities, they can rather be a prison. Of the Crawley girls, only Sybil had an independent spirit to break from the prison of priviledges and become a nurse and even that demanded the war. 

Mary told Matthew that women like her attended functions, etc. Mary was very socially active and so never whined about this like Edith did. Not sure why Mary has come up.

Many noblewomen took interests in charities or special causes and supported them with financial contributions, fundraising, or other forms of advocating.

Privileges are always the same as opportunities, especially for the wealthy. Having the privilege to travel, to receive an education, etc., are all opportunities themselves that offer access to even more opportunities. Being the daughter of an Earl afforded Edith many opportunities, few of which she took in he early seasons. She was able to learn to drive, something most women and even perhaps most men wouldn't have had the opportunity to do at that time, because her family could afford a car and a chauffeur. She was able to become a writer because of her education.

The prison they were in wasn't privilege it was misogyny.

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, slf said:

Privileges are always the same as opportunities, especially for the wealthy. Having the privilege to travel, to receive an education, etc., are all opportunities themselves that offer access to even more opportunities. 

Actually, Mary and Edith didn't have a good education. They didn'y travel abroad except when they were on the honeymoon. Mary herself said that they had a governess who learnt them French and prejudices, When Downton was opened to the public, neither Mary nor Edith didn't know even the paintings in their own home.

Compare this with a girl irl in my country, also born in 1892. Already in the school she learned several languages. Her family wasn's wealthy and her father died but her mother worked hard and she studied at the university, as also her older sister and brother, and in Paris. Even when studying, she earned money by writing to newspapers and translating novels.

Unlike Crawleys, her family was education-oriented and she learned to work hard already as youg.       

[slf]

6 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Actually, Mary and Edith didn't have a good education. They didn'y travel abroad except when they were on the honeymoon. Mary herself said that they had a governess who learnt them French and prejudices, When Downton was opened to the public, neither Mary nor Edith didn't know even the paintings in their own home.

The average woman at that time wouldn't have an education on par with the Crawley daughters. The average noblewoman wouldn't have an education par with the average nobleman, unless her family was very concerned with her having a more thorough education.

My point was not about whether or not Edith would have the opportunity to be a physicist, but that she had countless opportunities, things to do. Which she did.

Edited February 9, 2019 by slf