Lady Edith: Sex and the Single Girl

[ZoloftBlob]

Diane - I agree, it felt false that the family was so suddenly repulsed by Strallan. We'll ignore the flock of suitors for Mary for a moment and look at Edith's. She's 29-30, in a society denuded of men, and the guy she used to date has enough of a title and a name to please them. So he's old, so was Sir Richard, and Robert couldn't stand Sir Richard but didn't interfere in the slightest until he clued in that Sir Richard was blackmailing her. There were all sorts of red flags that Mary wasn't happy and that Richard was probably abusive... but it's Strallan who engages Robert's danger sense?

[Tetraneutron]

Diane - I agree, it felt false that the family was so suddenly repulsed by Strallan. We'll ignore the flock of suitors for Mary for a moment and look at Edith's. She's 29-30, in a society denuded of men, and the guy she used to date has enough of a title and a name to please them. So he's old, so was Sir Richard, and Robert couldn't stand Sir Richard but didn't interfere in the slightest until he clued in that Sir Richard was blackmailing her. There were all sorts of red flags that Mary wasn't happy and that Richard was probably abusive... but it's Strallan who engages Robert's danger sense?

The family was repulsed by Strallan because Stallan was old and boring. That's the whole entire point - Edith is such a loser that Strallan was the best she could do. The family has to be repelled by him or else it doesn't drive the point across how thoroughly Edith is scraping the bottom of the barrel.

 

Yes, at Edith's age they should be happy anyone is taking her. And the show DID make that point, when Violet said "any port in a storm". But that's just it. If Robert and Cora were drinking champagne, thrilled that they finally got some sucker to take the uggo off their hands, they would look like horrible people to a 21st century audience. The Crawleys are rich and powerful, and have not only discouraged their children from getting any education or job training or independence at all, but have actively prevented it. That gives them no right to complain that feeding and clothing their daughter is any sort of hardship for them. So in order to make our protagonists remotely likeable, they have to be concerned for Edith's welfare and not like they can't wait to be rid of her.

[ZoloftBlob]

But again, who exactly was waiting in the wings for Edith? And it's not as though Robert and Cora were making any effort to get Edith married off.... and if Strallan was so disgusting to them, I can't help but remember that Strallan was at one point Robert and Cora's idea of a perfectly acceptable husband for *Mary*.

[Tetraneutron]

Yeah, after they thought the Pamuk scandal was out and they were desperate. That's how bad Strallan is. They only consider him for Mary after a Turkish diplomat dies in her bed.

 

And you're making my point. Even though they thought Edith was unmarriable, they weren't desperate to marry her off. Some meaner parents might be, but not the Crawleys because the Crawleys are good. Some families would have forced Edith into a marriage with a horrible man who abuses her and cheats on her. Some would have sent her to a convent. Some would have forced her to serve on committees. But the Crawleys are OK with their spinster daughter hanging around the estate living her own life, doing what she wants. By the (horrible) standards of the day, that's actually a pretty good deal.

 

 

It always seemed to me that Edith was perfectly ready to be a full wife to Anthony Strallan and wasn't repelled by him at all. This was part of the story that never made sense to me. She seemed happy. We saw them enjoying each other's company.

Was she? She basically threw herself at him. The show was making it pretty clear that she was trying to land him and didn't care for him particularly as a person. Which actually speaks well of Edith, that she's not in love with someone so boring. And Strallan didn't seem to enjoy her company much either. Did we ever see them alone together? Did we ever see them talk about something other than whether they should marry? People are retconning Edith pretty heavily. She wasn't in love with Strallan, she saw him as her best chance not to suffer the worst thing that could happen to a woman of her station. She wasn't in love with Matthew or Patrick either; that was a combination of wanting to have a man and being jealous Mary got a new toy.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Tetraneutron

[caligirl50]

I so disagree.  I thought Edith was truly in love with Strallen and he the same. That was evident from the car ride and what he said to her when he broke it off at the alter.  They were well matched in terms of their personalities.  The family only found him not suitable when he became injured after the war.  They were fine with him before that.  

Edith was desperate.  She kissed that gross farmer, she wanted Matthew.  At one point in the show, she would have taken any man, or at least that is what Fellowes showed us. 

[ZoloftBlob]

Even though they thought Edith was unmarriable, they weren't desperate to marry her off. Some meaner parents might be, but not the Crawleys because the Crawleys are good. Some families would have forced Edith into a marriage with a horrible man who abuses her and cheats on her. Some would have sent her to a convent. Some would have forced her to serve on committees. But the Crawleys are OK with their spinster daughter hanging around the estate living her own life, doing what she wants. By the (horrible) standards of the day, that's actually a pretty good deal.

 

But you're sorta making my point in that Strallan wasn't an abusive monster and Edith genuinely wanted to marry him... and Robert and Violet did their best to drive him off all while knowing a) it would hurt Edith b) there was literally no one else and c) no one in the family was willing to help her find someone else.

 

If the Crawleys are so loving, why does no one ever sit Mary down and point out she has no birth right privilege to treat her sibling like crap? Probably the biggest parenting fail I ever saw on this show was utterly no depiction of Robert taking Mary to task over the reveal of Marigold and I can't help but think, since it never happened on screen, that it just didn't happen.

[BBDi]

Yeah, after they thought the Pamuk scandal was out and they were desperate. That's how bad Strallan is. They only consider him for Mary after a Turkish diplomat dies in her bed.

 

And you're making my point. Even though they thought Edith was unmarriable, they weren't desperate to marry her off. Some meaner parents might be, but not the Crawleys because the Crawleys are good. Some families would have forced Edith into a marriage with a horrible man who abuses her and cheats on her. Some would have sent her to a convent. Some would have forced her to serve on committees. But the Crawleys are OK with their spinster daughter hanging around the estate living her own life, doing what she wants. By the (horrible) standards of the day, that's actually a pretty good deal.

Not really a good deal. At that time the only way for Edith to have her own household was to marry. That's just what people did - and as a spinster she'd have little social standing if she didn't marry.

I felt the point of that car ride was that she realized that he was a kind man who had lost a wife he seemed to love, and was lonely - and that was a need she was capable of filling even if she wasn't in love with him - and that caring for him would good enough. That was my interpretation.

This is one of the places where the plotting totally breaks down for me. As good/decent parents they would have wanted her to marry. If only because, due to the entail, there would be no guarantee of a home at DA after Robert's death.

Strallan was the right class and apparently had a nice house and money. He seemed to have a good reputation and we saw that he was clearly a decent person. The ranks of eligible young men had thinned considerably after WWI. Considering how little value Ma and Pa Crawley placed on Edith, you would think they would have thought it a very good match.

It just seemed so wtf-ish when they suddenly objected when Edith and Strallan eventually got engaged - Edith was getting older and there were fewer prospects than ever. It's not like she'd have to wipe his drool personally - there are servants for that. And even if Strallan died, she'd be better off as a widow than never having married. So ridiculous.

[SusanSunflower]

actually, my memory is that Robert got squicked at the idea of Strallen and his baby daughter getting married, doing the deed, having children all under his watchful eye ...  Was this before or after Robert's dalliance with Jane?  (season 2 E5-8) -- It was after, I think and IMDB would seem to bear this out. We last saw Strallen (whom we had met earlier) in S3 #1-3 (so after Jane's departure) ... Yes, I think it was ghost of Jane in Robert's sudden distaste for "robbing the cradle" ... 

I remember thinking it was hilarious that Robert would complain that Strallen was dull ... as if, he ... as if,  Edith... 

[DianeDobbler]

Yes, at Edith's age they should be happy anyone is taking her. And the show DID make that point, when Violet said "any port in a storm". But that's just it. If Robert and Cora were drinking champagne, thrilled that they finally got some sucker to take the uggo off their hands, they would look like horrible people to a 21st century audience.

 

 

But that wasn't the story we saw, not from Edith's point of view. When she and Strallan were together in the car, they were HAPPY. Edith's face was happy and pleased. There was nothing of the grim determination to see this thing through come hell or high water. She was relaxed, Stallen was relaxed, she was pleased they were connecting. Think of some of the downstairs folks when they have to do something that sets their teeth on edge, but it's for the larger good. Anna, Daisy ... anyone. NONE of that with Edith. She was very compatible with Strallan. He was a good man, a kind man, he was not "boring" other than not being dramatic or young. He was well read. He was interested in things, as was Edith. Edith glowed on her wedding day. IOW, NOTHING was telling the audience that Robert and Cora would be bad parents if they let the marriage go forward. Instead it appeared as if they were projecting their own hideous, harmful concepts about Edith onto the marriage and then torpedo'd it without once considering who she was, her own wishes, and her own happiness. She had actually become a happy woman with Strallan. Her parents couldn't bear it. The worst writing EVER. If you're going to have Violet and Robert interfere that way, then you damn well better show that Edith is in trouble and headed for a life of misery in exchange for security. They never showed that. They showed a happy Edith who was happy and compatible with her fiance'.

 

The irony of course, is, that as others have pointed out, it was MARY who was grimly carrying through with an engagement to an older man with whom she would have been miserable, because his situation in life would give her the position she thought she needed to have, and her parents didn't interfere. Furthermore, when she did call off the engagement, I believe (ready to be corrected) after Robert spoke to HER. He didn't go behind her back to speak to Richard without her knowing.

 

[Tetraneutron]

But after the episode she was left at the altar, she never referenced Strallen again. Meanwhile, she spent a year mourning Gregson and spoke of him as recently as the last episode. In the episode Strallen dumped her and Edith went crying to her room, the rest of the family AND the servants spoke of "Poor Edith, being humiliated like that." No one said "Poor Edith, rejected by the man she loved." The concern was that Edith would be reminded of the wedding, not of Strallen. When Anna brought her breakfast in bed the next morning, Edith spoke of being a useful spinster who didn't deserve breakfast in bed, not of a lost love. And then she went to breakfast and read the paper. Even at the beginning of the episode, before the wedding, she said "Something happening in this house is actually about me." Nothing about Strallen as a person. No one ever spoke of Edith carrying a torch for him, of Edith being turned dow by a man she loved, the way it was with Mary and Matthew. Compare that to Edith's attitude about Gregson and it's like night and day. 

 

And I don't see where Cora or Robert actively sabotaged the relationship anyway. Strallen asked Robert what he thought, and Robert said, "Eh, whatever. Do what you want." That's hardly sabotage. Strallen's a grown man. He shouldn't need Robert to embrace him like a blood brother. Gregson had FAR more obstacles placed in his path and he pursued Edith anyway. So did Tom with Sybil. And Talbot with Mary, at least originally. And Sir Richard. 

[SusanSunflower]

Strallen and Robert and Cora had been friends and neighbors for almost longer than Edith had been alive ... he bounced her on his knee in that capacity ... Their lack of enthusiasm and his own fears and self-esteem issues, being a wounded older war veteran, that Edith would be seen by others as "nurse"  to this invalid old old man was just too much for Strallen to bear ... wasn't it Violet who tipped the balance ... I'm not sure she even said something... perhaps it was that she did not offer the polite reassurance that Strallen sought. 

Actually, I thought the whole matter with Strallan was very very odd ... never to be mentioned again (I am glad Dr. Clarkson was able to return fro his real-life events hiatus).

 

Strallan's banishment was enough to make me wonder if the actor had offend Fellowes?  Now he was an even lonelier lonely widower -- he had been a frequent guest, an extra man at the dinner table, etc. then poof ... I felt terrible for him -- still just over the hill or the hedge from the family he had known for decades and three daughter he had watched grow up, but personal non grata -- very odd. 

 

oh, just checked Downton Wiki -- yes, it was Violet that sent Strallan running 

Edited November 21, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[Hecate7]

Yeah, after they thought the Pamuk scandal was out and they were desperate. That's how bad Strallan is. They only consider him for Mary after a Turkish diplomat dies in her bed.

 

And you're making my point. Even though they thought Edith was unmarriable, they weren't desperate to marry her off. Some meaner parents might be, but not the Crawleys because the Crawleys are good. Some families would have forced Edith into a marriage with a horrible man who abuses her and cheats on her. Some would have sent her to a convent. Some would have forced her to serve on committees. But the Crawleys are OK with their spinster daughter hanging around the estate living her own life, doing what she wants. By the (horrible) standards of the day, that's actually a pretty good deal.

 

Was she? She basically threw herself at him. The show was making it pretty clear that she was trying to land him and didn't care for him particularly as a person. Which actually speaks well of Edith, that she's not in love with someone so boring. And Strallan didn't seem to enjoy her company much either. Did we ever see them alone together? Did we ever see them talk about something other than whether they should marry? People are retconning Edith pretty heavily. She wasn't in love with Strallan, she saw him as her best chance not to suffer the worst thing that could happen to a woman of her station. She wasn't in love with Matthew or Patrick either; that was a combination of wanting to have a man and being jealous Mary got a new toy.

 

We frequently saw them alone. They made each other laugh. Edith learned about cars and farming in order to make better conversation with him. She adored him, which was why Mary's action was so cruel--Edith not only enjoyed Anthony, but also worked at being a more ideal companion for him.

[Andorra]

For me it wasn't the Crawley's fault that Strallan left Edith at the altar. After she told him she was going to "make him her life's work" Strallan realized that she wasn't really in love with him, but desperate to find someone who needed her and that she wasn't really realizing the consequences it would have for her life. And that was what triggered him leaving her at the altar. It was not the lack of enthusiasm about the marriage on the Crawley's side which made him change his mind. They didn't sabotage it. They weren't over the moon, but they accepted it. When it came to Strallan leaving Edith the Dowager only recognized the truth and that it was better for Edith in the long run.

[Roseanna]

Hecate7, that Edith and Strallan enjoyed each other's company, had common topics that interest both and laughed together, means only that they were friends - or maybe Strallan was a surrogate father to Edith.

Did they look each other like Mary and Matthew or Sybil and Tom did? Did we ever see them kiss?

Never mind that many aristocrats married without love (especially sexual desire) in those times. The show was made for us.

[ZoloftBlob]

In fairness, we never saw Mary look at Henry the way she did at Matthew and we're expected to buy into the Mary/Henry thing...

 

And to be fair, Robert's "approval" of Strallan included telling Strallan to dump his daughter. That was hardly the Crawleys being enthusiastic. I mean, this wasn't a storyline about a mean elderly man forcing Edith to be his sex toy and nurse - years earlier, this marriage was resoundingly approved of. Had Strallan proposed in 1914, the Crawleys would have had grandchildren by the time the failed wedding occurred.

[Hecate7]

But you're sorta making my point in that Strallan wasn't an abusive monster and Edith genuinely wanted to marry him... and Robert and Violet did their best to drive him off all while knowing a) it would hurt Edith b) there was literally no one else and c) no one in the family was willing to help her find someone else.

 

If the Crawleys are so loving, why does no one ever sit Mary down and point out she has no birth right privilege to treat her sibling like crap? Probably the biggest parenting fail I ever saw on this show was utterly no depiction of Robert taking Mary to task over the reveal of Marigold and I can't help but think, since it never happened on screen, that it just didn't happen.

 

I'm sure it didn't. Parents didn't intervene. Bullying was ok. People tended to blame the victim, just as they do today. It wasn't the parents' or teacher's job to stop the bullies or protect the victims. it was the victim's job to not get bullied. Everyone knew what bullies were, but they were seen as implacable forces of nature. There's no use in talking to them or disciplining them or telling them to stop--they are what they are. The only hope is if the victim can outsmart them, convert them, or just outrun them somehow.

 

Also parents were big on letting kids work out their conflicts between themselves, which is why there were so many books like A Separate Piece, Lord of the Flies, The Chocolate War, etc...kids simply "worked it out" amongst themselves, or died trying.

[Hecate7]

Hecate7, that Edith and Strallan enjoyed each other's company, had common topics that interest both and laughed together, means only that they were friends - or maybe Strallan was a surrogate father to Edith.

Did they look each other like Mary and Matthew or Sybil and Tom did? Did we ever see them kiss?

Never mind that many aristocrats married without love (especially sexual desire) in those times. The show was made for us.

 

We didn't see them kiss, but that's not the be-all and end-all. Yes, they did look at each other a bit like Matthew and Mary or Sybil and Tom, actually. They certainly had way more chemistry than Mary/Henry or Mary/Blake or Mary/Gillingham or Mary/Tom.

 

They didn't get a kiss because Edith isn't the romantic lead. Edith wasn't passively sitting around waiting for Prince Charming. She saw a man who could save the family, and she saw that he was interested in her and asking her out, and she worked diligently on learning about agriculture and found she enjoyed it. She worked on understanding him and learning about him and she was absolutely DEVASTATED when he stopped showing up. She took to her bed when he left her at the altar. That doesn't sound to me like she was just grimly tolerating him. Other people might have found him boring, but she loved him. She WANTED to marry him. This had absolutely NOTHING to do with Mary, which of course is why it had to be stopped. This wasn't about being "jealous" of "Mary's new toy." This was about Edith going out and making a life for herself, and the family, especially Mary, squelching it because it wasn't something they wanted to have sexual fantasies about themselves or something. It's not as if Edith had other options at the time.

 

I think this was plot armor. Edith can't marry until Mary does. Edith can't go off and live someplace else and be content because then who will Mary bully? There has to be one person who does not join the starry-eyed crowd of Mary-worshippers, and JF didn't leave himself any options. It can't be a servant, obviously, or the parents, or any of the men. So Edith must be pulled back from the brink of personal happiness again and again until the end of the series, so that there will be some conflict. Otherwise it's just everyone standing around singing "It's a Jolly Holiday With Mary."

[caligirl50]

Hecate7 - Edith learned about farming and how to drive on her own. Those skills were learned before she started seeing Strallen socially.  

I think Strallen was questioning the relationship the entire time and when he sat with Robert over port and cigars that one night and asked Robert if he was happy about their marrying, Robert didn't give him the answer he wanted to hear.  He respected Robert. Like everyone else has said on this thread, they were friends. He wanted confirmation that he was doing right by his daughter.  Robert had objected in the past and his answer was still an objection of sorts.

 

The other thing that never made sense to me was why Mary never outed Edith to her mother that Edith had written to the Turkish ambassador about the Pamuk situation.  That Mary kept silent to me was odd.   

[SusanSunflower]

I really wanted Edith to marry Strallan  -- I adored the idea of Mary peeping out the window or from the roof, trying to get a glance of the goings on next door as Edith had dinner parties and guests and learned to be a hostess .. while Ms. Fancy Pants had little prospect of ever doing the same ... even when married to Matthew, Mary's autonomy was extremely limited after they got back from their honeymoon.  Speaking of which, after the honeymoon, with the arrival at Downton of the "death car" -- I was really hoping that Mary and Matthew would have some adventures on their own... Given the "standards must be kept" presence of Cora and Violet, I doubt Mary has ever planned an original menu or requested a recipe ... because: change is to be avoided at all costs. 

IRL, I don't think there would have been any objection to Strallan -- not even awful children from his first marriage, as I recall -- He would have been considered a very very lucky man and she, pretty enough, good natured enough .. etc. There would be money enough for real nurses if the need arose ... and -- gasp -- she might well have had a baby or two before he croaked ... Utter bosh. Robert though Strallan dull because sometime he was forced to shut-up-and-listen ... (Robert has evolved since Season 3) 

Edited November 22, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[Hecate7]

Hecate7 - Edith learned about farming and how to drive on her own. Those skills were learned before she started seeing Strallen socially.  

I think Strallen was questioning the relationship the entire time and when he sat with Robert over port and cigars that one night and asked Robert if he was happy about their marrying, Robert didn't give him the answer he wanted to hear.  He respected Robert. Like everyone else has said on this thread, they were friends. He wanted confirmation that he was doing right by his daughter.  Robert had objected in the past and his answer was still an objection of sorts.

 

The other thing that never made sense to me was why Mary never outed Edith to her mother that Edith had written to the Turkish ambassador about the Pamuk situation.  That Mary kept silent to me was odd.   

 

Didn't she start seeing him in the third episode of the first season? Didn't Mary retaliate for the letter almost immediately?

[caligirl50]

I've been watching the first 5 seasons since March...like everyday (I know that is sad) but I never got that Edith learning to drive in Season 2 and driving the tractor and working at the farm (again, Season 2) had anything to do with Strallan.  

[Hecate7]

I've been watching the first 5 seasons since March...like everyday (I know that is sad) but I never got that Edith learning to drive in Season 2 and driving the tractor and working at the farm (again, Season 2) had anything to do with Strallan.  

 

Well, I never said that Strallan taught her. I thought that she was inspired to learn those things because those were the things he was excited about.

[caligirl50]

Yeah, I never got that he inspired her (and who said anything about him teaching her????).

I'm done.

[shipperx]

To be fair if someone humiliated you by leaving you at the altar you probably have less reason to reminisce fondly than you are about the guy who loved you to the end and was tragically killed (and is the father of your secret love child). It's only natural that Gregson's memory is treated as more treasured than Strallen's.

[DeccaMitford]

Yeah, that makes perfect sense to me. The Gregson affair was probably just as traumatic, in the end, but Edith got a career and a child out of Michael; she probably sees Strallan as a complete waste of her time. Michael never hurt Edith the way Anthony did.

 

I don't think there's any reason to think that Edith wouldn't have been happy enough with Strallan, but I also think that all things considered she's better off, and she probably wouldn't go for someone like that now. I was never really sure how I was supposed to take that relationship - it didn't help that the actor playing Strallan always had an expression on his face like an anxious possum. I could honestly never tell whether he was in love with Edith because he looked either vacant or terrified whenever she was around.

[SusanSunflower]

Unlike Mary who grieved numbly for her husband for a whole season, Edith picked herself up, dusted herself off and got on with her life ... although  in retrospect there probably should have been more grieving -- possibly even anger and/or recriminations ... Fellowes didn't care enough to even wonder what Edith made of Strallan's betrayal and humiliation of her. I dont' recall Strallan ever being mentioned again, one way of the other, for that matter ... even though he apparently continues to live next door ... how very awkward ... and how strange ... (and how lazy). 

[Roseanna]

More grieving? No. Anger? Yes. With Gregson, Edith lost love, but what Strallan did to her, was so unforgivable that it certainly killed her love for good (it it ever had existed).

That Mary spent six months in seclusion, doesn't prove that she grieved more but that she indulged herself, considering she had a baby (of course it's also possible that she suffered of postpartum depression). In the same situation Tom showed more self-discipline and a sense of duty.

[Tetraneutron]

I really think people are misunderstanding the Strallen character. He's Mr. Collins from Pride and Prejudice. A crashing bore nobody likes personally, but represents the last option so the daughter with limited prospects doesn't become an old maid. Robert and Cora consistently thought Edith was too good for Strallen. 

 

I so disagree.  I thought Edith was truly in love with Strallen and he the same. That was evident from the car ride and what he said to her when he broke it off at the alter.  They were well matched in terms of their personalities.  The family only found him not suitable when he became injured after the war.  They were fine with him before that.  

Edith was desperate.  She kissed that gross farmer, she wanted Matthew.  At one point in the show, she would have taken any man, or at least that is what Fellowes showed us. 

Yes, she was desperate. And Strallen was evidence of that. R and C NEVER liked him. In season 1 Robert said he was as old as he was and dull as paint. Again, Mr. Collins. They didn't think Edith could do better than him and STILL thought he was a pathetic choice. So did Alfred, and unbiased observer. And if Edith was truly in love with Strallen, she would have mentioned him after being dumbed. She never did. Neither did anyone else from Violet to the servants. It was all about how she was humiliated and was now going to be an old spinster. Compare that to Mary's attitude when she thought she lost Matthew. It was all about Matthew. Or compare it to Edith's attitude to Greyson. It was never about being alone, being a single mother/ It was all about missing Greyson. 

 

the biggest parenting fail I ever saw on this show was utterly no depiction of Robert taking Mary to task over the reveal of Marigold and I can't help but think, since it never happened on screen, that it just didn't happen.

They did. Every single Crawley believed Mary was way out of line. Every single Crawley conspired to hide the news from Mary. What does that tell you? What else can they do? Mary's a woman in her mid 30s and far beyond being "punished" by her parents. Should Robert send her to her room without dinner?

 

 

I really wanted Edith to marry Strallan  -- I adored the idea of Mary peeping out the window or from the roof, trying to get a glance of the goings on next door as Edith had dinner parties and guests and learned to be a hostess .. while Ms. Fancy Pants had little prospect of ever doing the same ... even when married to Matthew,

Why? That never would have happened. If Edith had married Strallen, Mary wouldn't have been jealous, she would have laughed. Mary would outrank her in every way.  She wouldn't be jealous of the parties Edith would throw, because they'd be two dullards throwing dull parties no one would come to. Mary would make a better marriage because ​Strallen was "dull as paint". No one ever spoke of Strallen as a fun guy, who was a social beacon, who threw good parties. If Mary married ANY of her suitors (Matthew, Richard, Evelyn, Gillingham, Blake, or even Henry) she would far, far, outrank Edith socially. Why do you think Mary was so shocked when she found out Edith would be Lady Hexum? Because THEN she'd outrank Mary socially. Something Mary never EVER thought would happen. If Strallen were a good prospect, Mary would have behaved the way she did then. 

[ZoloftBlob]

Should Robert send her to her room without dinner?

 

Robert has the controlling interest in the estate until he dies. He can tell Mary to apologize or leave. He doesn't have to let her live there. Yes, he can punish her. He can deny seeing her, he can demand she leave his home. Would it hurt? Yes - and that's kind of the point. Mary did something awful because she knows she'll get away with it, without even being told "no supper".

 

I get the plot points as to why Robert wouldn't have a normal Edwardian reaction to a lot of things but lets not pretend he as the Earl and head of the family had no recourse but to simply do *nothing*. That he does nothing says more about the poor writing than anything else.

[Roseanna]

Tetraneutron, I agree that Strallan has the same role as Mr Collins but their character and behavior is entirely different. That also shows what Jane Austen has and JF doens't.

Austen doesn't need to tell us what kind of man Collins is - she us that. Everything he does is pompous, flattering, embarrassing. He speaks and writes only chiches. He is entirely laughable.

On the other hand, Strallan is laughable only when he eats something unsuitable in the dinner table (although it was uncivil from Mary and Matthew to laugh at him) and that could happen to anybody. In other matters, we are told but not really shown that he is a bore. (I think Henry is a bore.)

Before all, Strallan is always a kind and decent man whereas Collins is a hypocrite.

Despite all that, the actor that was chosen to the role shows clearly that Strallan is at bottom in the romantic ladder in order to show how desperate Edith to marry is - as her actions also show.

[Hecate7]

Tetraneutron, I agree that Strallan has the same role as Mr Collins but their character and behavior is entirely different. That also shows what Jane Austen has and JF doens't.

Austen doesn't need to tell us what kind of man Collins is - she us that. Everything he does is pompous, flattering, embarrassing. He speaks and writes only chiches. He is entirely laughable.

On the other hand, Strallan is laughable only when he eats something unsuitable in the dinner table (although it was uncivil from Mary and Matthew to laugh at him) and that could happen to anybody. In other matters, we are told but not really shown that he is a bore. (I think Henry is a bore.)

Before all, Strallan is always a kind and decent man whereas Collins is a hypocrite.

Despite all that, the actor that was chosen to the role shows clearly that Strallan is at bottom in the romantic ladder in order to show how desperate Edith to marry is - as her actions also show.

 

 

If everyone dislikes Strallan so much then 1) why were they going to let Mary marry him? and 2) why are they friends with him? Of course they weren't friends any longer, after he left Edith at the altar, but why were they friends at all before then, if he was so godawful? Edith seemed to like him a great deal. Not nearly as much, of course, as Gregson or Pelham. I think Gregson really was the love of her life. Pelham will do--she's got very strong feelings for him. Strallan was the least of her loves, but he was the first to actually requite her, and so she adored him at the time.

 

The Bennets are friends with Collins because they HAVE to be. He's their clergyman. But the Crawleys have no such obligation towards Strallan. If they didn't want him around they didn't have to. He's not nearly as bad as Collins. He's just perceived as being very dull, and all wrong for a girl Edith's age.

 

Edith seems a very tender-hearted and impressionable girl at first, who falls in love very easily, and has difficulty telling the difference between warm friendship and adoration. She also seems the sort who makes the best of her situation, which isn't at all consisted with Mary's complaints about her "mopeyness." She's not at all mopey. Mary is the mopey one. Edith rolls her sleeves up and goes to work on a farm, or nurses, or goes driving with some old man. Although everyone said he was boring, Edith wasn't at all bored by him. She lit up like a candle whenever she saw him. He was the least of her loves, but she didn't know that yet. I think she was probably more interested in Patrick than Strallan, even. But nobody knew at that time that Edith could do better, anyway, so it's rather unrealistic how they all jumped up and tried to interfere.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Hecate7

[Tetraneutron]

If everyone dislikes Strallan so much then 1) why were they going to let Mary marry him? and 2) why are they friends with him?

They were going to let Mary marry him only after Mary dumped Richard, they knew Richard knew about Pamuk, and were worried he'd leak it as revenge. Remember Cora (who knew about Pamuk and the blackmail) suggested Strallen, and Robert (who didn't) was shocked Cora would suggest someone for Mary so utterly beneath her.

 

And they were acquaintances with him because he's a Peer, in their community. They called him boring. The fact that you're acquainted with someone doesn't mean you want your daughter to marry them. And they were never great friends - Robert made it clear he didn't like him much.

 

 

 He's not nearly as bad as Collins. He's just perceived as being very dull, and all wrong for a girl Edith's age.

Yes, that's exactly it. He was very dull, and even R and C thought Edith could do better. I don't understand the complaint that R and C were mean to Edith by not thinking she's marriage material, but still, thinking she's better than a dull but technically-suitable man. they thought well enough of Edith to think she could do better. And should do better.

 

And they weren't interfering in a love match. That was abundantly clear, that Edith never loved him. That she was somewhat resigned to her fate and would prefer this than dying alone. That's why (a) Edith was more excited about having a wedding than wedding the love of her life ("I can't believe something in this house is finally about me"). Why (b) afterwards, everyone was concerned she'd be reminded of the aborted wedding and not losing a man she cared for, © everyone spoke of her being humiliated, not heartbroken (even the servants), and (d) when Anna brought her breakfast the next morning, Edith spoke of being a spinster who didn't deserve such things. That was her reason for doing all this - so she wouldn't be a spinster. And more importantly (e) she never mentioned Strallen again. When she thought she lost Gregson, she was obsessed with Gregson. Not security, not getting married, not being a single mother - Gregson for himself.

[ZoloftBlob]

They were going to let Mary marry him only after Mary dumped Richard, they knew Richard knew about Pamuk, and were worried he'd leak it as revenge. Remember Cora (who knew about Pamuk and the blackmail) suggested Strallen, and Robert (who didn't) was shocked Cora would suggest someone for Mary so utterly beneath her.

 

No... Strallan was trotted out for Mary in season one as the "you are ruined so we need to marry you off" beau. Sir Richard wasn't even a thought on the show until season two. (and in fact I don't recall how it was explained that he even met Mary or the Crawleys)

[DeccaMitford]

 

They were going to let Mary marry him only after Mary dumped Richard, they knew Richard knew about Pamuk, and were worried he'd leak it as revenge. Remember Cora (who knew about Pamuk and the blackmail) suggested Strallen, and Robert (who didn't) was shocked Cora would suggest someone for Mary so utterly beneath her.

Not to nitpick, but you have this backwards. Strallan was touted as an option for Mary in season one, long before Richard entered on the scene. Strallan instead hit it off with Edith, planned to propose to her, was lied to by Mary out of revenge for Edith sending the Pamuk story to the Turkish ambassador, and left for all of season two. Richard first arrived in season two having met Mary sometime between the seasons. Strallan appeared briefly in the Christmas special after season two, only with Edith. When he was back in season three, Mary and Matthew were already engaged and then married. He was never an option for Mary apart from the brief window in season one when there were rumors circulating under the surface about the Pamuk story, but nothing definite had come out or was on the verge of coming out. It was at that point that Cora was starting to worry that Mary couldn't do better.

ETA, or what ZoloftBlob said.

 

Strallan was also not a Peer. He was a sir, which made him either a knight or baronet.

Edited November 25, 2015 by DeccaMitford

[Roseanna]

Tetraneutron, that Edith didn't mention Strallan didn't necessarily mean anything - Mary didn't mention Matthew like Tom did about Sybil. But what does mean is that Edith told to Gregson about "being jilted at the altar" like she would have talked about yesterday's weather - it was just something that had happened but she was not emotionally tied to it.

You are right that she cared for Gregson as a man, not that she was left a spinster again.

[SusanSunflower]

Interesting that Edith didn't assume that Gregson knew about her humiliation ... and/or that Gregson, in fact, did not know he had hired that Crawley woman who was so humiliatingly jilted a few years ago ...  If Edith's very public jilting could be so quickly forgotten, what is the plausibility of the "Pamuk Scandal" rumors being still remembered ... more than a decade on ... having been replaced by the tragic death of Mary's first husband and father of heir.... what's his name ... 

[ZoloftBlob]

more than a decade on ... having been replaced by the tragic death of Mary's first husband and father of heir.... what's his name ...

 

You must mean Matthew "Lord Voldemorte" Crawley :D

 

I am forever amused that Henry decided to court her without ever looking up what happened to her first husband who didn't die in the war...

 

Back on Edith - frankly I think she might have assumed that since Gregson wasn't in their social circles aka not a peer, that he might simply not have paid attention to the minor wedding scandals in Yorkshire

[TheGreenKnight]

And they weren't interfering in a love match. That was abundantly clear, that Edith never loved him. That she was somewhat resigned to her fate and would prefer this than dying alone. That's why (a) Edith was more excited about having a wedding than wedding the love of her life ("I can't believe something in this house is finally about me"). Why (b) afterwards, everyone was concerned she'd be reminded of the aborted wedding and not losing a man she cared for, © everyone spoke of her being humiliated, not heartbroken (even the servants), and (d) when Anna brought her breakfast the next morning, Edith spoke of being a spinster who didn't deserve such things. That was her reason for doing all this - so she wouldn't be a spinster. And more importantly (e) she never mentioned Strallen again. When she thought she lost Gregson, she was obsessed with Gregson. Not security, not getting married, not being a single mother - Gregson for himself.

I disagree that it was "clear" Edith didn't love Strallan. Yes, it was ultimately about getting married for her (just like finding someone to marry has been Mary's story for at least half the series), but that doesn't take away from the fact that Edith enjoyed him, refused to let him turn her away because of his age, even told him that having to take care of him would be no problem for her. The only way I could buy those things NOT showing she was in love is if she said them in a forced, calculated way, but the dialogue between them made it clear she was eager to be with him.

The reason Edith never mentioned Strallan again has already been pointed out: she parted from the two men in entirely different ways. The last time she saw Strallan was the day he left her at the altar; I can't quite remember the exact details, but I believe she had just made love to Gregson just before he left for Germany with the intent to be married. Gregson also left her an inheritance and a daughter as a constant reminder of his love for her. For another thing, the writing isn't going to bring up a past character unless they are relevant to the current storyline--Edith's pregnancy is one of the main reasons Gregson was repeatedly mentioned. Of course we wouldn't hear her bring up Strallan again--unless the show suddenly gave her an inner monologue in season 3. The family didn't even want to discuss him when she wanted to marry him, much less after he publically humiliated her, so who would she have talked about him to? I believe the episode after this, she comes close to alluding to the experience to Violet and Violet's response? "Stop whining!!" What a wonderful family.

[Roseanna]

TheGreenKnight, I think that the question is what "being in love" means to each of us.

Edith obviously liked Strallan and she may even loved him, but she loved him as a friend and/or as as surrogate father. But did she also long for his kisses and caresses?

With Gregson, Edith's love had also the physical side that is essential in marriage. Edith said that is more and more difficult to leave. In other words she wanted to make love to her.

[Dejana]

I've been binge watching the early seasons for the first time recently and just yesterday, I got to the episode where Edith was jilted at the altar (I didn't realize that people meant it literally!). Edith seemed more starry-eyed, naive and desperate in many ways, but I never thought her feelings for Strallan were merely paternal or anything less than sincere. It wasn't portrayed as the most carnal of relationships, but considering how Matthew proposed to Mary for the first time after what seemed like one kiss, while Tom and Sybil spent years exchanging moony looks, and these were endgame couples, so Edith and Strallan didn't stand out for a glaring lack of physical attraction. I think if Fellowes meant to leave the impression that Edith was dreading the idea of being a "proper wife" to Sir Anthony, there would have been scenes to that effect: some motherly/sisterly ribbing about the honeymoon, to which Edith cringes or says she hopes he won't bother her too much about "that", or something along those lines.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Dejana

[Roseanna]

Dejane, DA is very chaste but so were old novels and movies. But as the latter show, there is also other ways than showing all. Indeed, these ways can be more effective because they invoke imagination of the audience.

I am sure that the actor was chosen on purpose to show that nobody could imagine Edith happy in bed with Strallan.

[caligirl50]

Deanne - Edith never say anything like that when she was sitting on the couch talking to Violent, Sybil and Mary.  She was the one who kept kissing him.  I thought she was looking forward to it.

Watch the scene again.

[SusanSunflower]

http://downtonabbey.wikia.com/wiki/Anthony_Strallan

 

I always thought Robert's statement that Strallan was dull as paint was ironic since he (Robert) seems to be the dullest of men ... He silently reads the newspaper at breakfast each morning (while Cora dines in bed) ...  but somehow couldn't managed to take sufficient interest in his investments to avoid near-catastrophe ... in fact, quite real financial ruin, rescued by Lavinia's father's fortune, iirc. 

 

In 1914, Sir Anthony was invited to Downton Abbey, as Cora Crawley, Countess of Grantham wished for Lady Mary Crawley to marry before any scandal arose from the death of Mr Pamuk. When Mary spent a large amount of the evening talking to Matthew Crawley, and later turned down a drive in Strallan's car, he became interested in Lady Edith Crawley, and she in him.

Sometime later that year, but before the outbreak of war, Strallan visits Downton shortly after having returned from the Continent where he had been engaged in high-level diplomatic talks. It is not known what position Strallan has in the British government but it seems an important one him having been sent to Austria and Germany only months before the outbreak of the Great War. Also, from what he tells Edith, he seems somewhat familiar with Kaiser Bill.

 

Strallan actually served the government prior to WWI, served in battle in WWI ...and was injured with the loss of use of his arm ... Robert got to play dress-up and loan Downton Abbey (reluctantly) to the government as a hospital (more like a nursing home) for the better class of wounded soldiers (officers mostly) in need of rehab and adjustment ... 

There was mention also that Strallan was very embarrassed (depressed?) about his useless arm and had isolated himself (declining invitations) after his hospital/medical care and returning home ... isolation from which Edith rescues him. 

I saw the actor in a Midsomer Murder last night and he does have a rather delicate "donnish" look to him ... Strallan also is well-spoken and perhaps well-educated, interested in new ways in agriculture, of course Robert found him "dull"  The character showed little enough "life force" -- much less ardor or sexual interest -- but he was in the beginning recently widowed (2 years earlier)... and in the end, altered and diminished by war wounds (which were never explained and were "curious" to me -- like Thomas' magic thumb and Matthew's magic paralysis) 

Edited November 27, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[Roseanna]

SusanSunflower, I agree that Robert's opinion that Strallan was boring seems ironic on the basis what we have seen about Robert. In addition, the dinner parties we saw in Downton were quite dull - or people had a quarrel about politics etc. The only lively party, besides servants' ball, was the failed one that Cora's mother turned to a picnic.

The problem was that JF thought Strallan was boring and let Robert say it aloud - but we were shown a man of sense who modernized agriculture, who learned to drive a car and who had loved his wife. His only "boring" strait was that he started to speak about agriculture in the dinner table which wasn't the right way to court Mary - if this scene looks at another angle, it shows how bad manners Mary and Matthew had by laughing at Strallan's accident. If it had been another guest, all would have shown concern - or at least pretended it.

In the end, it was all about casting.

[Llywela]

It's also about different personalities. Just because Robert thinks someone is boring, doesn't mean Edith has to agree. Robert looks for and appreciates different qualities than Edith does - just as Mary looks for and appreciates different qualities than Edith, and Sybil was different again. Different people are attracted to different people, interested in different subjects. So, Robert declaring Strallan a bore isn't a universal indictment, just Robert's personal opinion. Violet thought Lord Merton was a crushing bore, but Isobel really hit it off with him, because Violet and Isobel are different people with different tastes - it's pretty much the same thing.

Edited November 27, 2015 by Llywela

[Roseanna]

Llywela, I agree with you that it's a question of people's opinions.

But opinions can also change. In Mansfield Park Mary Crawford thinks that Edmund Bertram is a bore because he lacks the qualities his older brother Tom has. But when she get to know him better, she begins to value him as he has qualities that make a husband. On the contrary, Henry Crawford had the outer qualities that get women to fall in love with him, but he lacks the substance, i.e. the principles and will.

Now, Edmund is a prig and when he and Fanny marry, they hardly give lively parties. But does it really matter as they have a happy with each other? The crux of the matter is that Jane Austen didn't think that it's not enough to be dashing and witty but nowadays writers of love stories often do.

[Hecate7]

TheGreenKnight, I think that the question is what "being in love" means to each of us.

Edith obviously liked Strallan and she may even loved him, but she loved him as a friend and/or as as surrogate father. But did she also long for his kisses and caresses?

With Gregson, Edith's love had also the physical side that is essential in marriage. Edith said that is more and more difficult to leave. In other words she wanted to make love to her.

 

Passionate romantic love is such a very brief portion of life. It fades inside of three years, and when it's gone, there had better be a very good friendship under there. There is an old saying that a couple should put money in a jar every time they make love the first year of their marriage. Then after that year, they should take money out each time. The jar will never be empty.

 

Even in a very physical and romantic marriage, kisses, caresses, and etc... only account for a few minutes a day. I think we make too much of it. Common interests and enjoying actually spending time together, are much more important longterm, and far more important in life. I think Edith's practical love for Strallan would have made her happy in a way that "falling in love" just can't. Falling in love leads eventually to falling out of it. And it leads to dissatisfaction with the partner, unless of course they die early on in some amazingly romantic way, like Gregson, Sybil, and Matthew did.

 

Edith was "in love" with Gregson, probably in a way she would only be once in a lifetime. But that does not mean she'd have been miserable with Strallan. Her expectations were low enough that he would always have exceeded them. Her love for him was temperate and would not have been disappointed by affection without intense passion. I think Strallan's problem was that he was intensely passionate about Edith, but wasn't comfortable with it. Violet was able to make him very ashamed of his feelings for Edith, and that's why he abandoned her.

[Featherhat]

It’s 2015 most people would say Edith absolutely should not “settle” for Strallen, but at least some of the characters should have been more agreeable to the idea of Edith marrying him.

The fact is that a lot Edith’s after WW1 had very limited options. “Settle” and marry the person who offered or spend their days living as lifelong dependents on their father/brother/uncle/nephew. It was almost still Charlottle Lucas 100 years on for many “gentlewomen”. Realistically the family should have been pleased. Neither Cora nor Robert ever thought she would marry even *before* WW1 and here she is married to a local Baronet with a large house, no other heirs (as far as we are aware away) who whilst he has an injury has less of one than many in Edith’s own generation (see Fatrick, Mattthew originally) and can afford nurses and doctors so she isn’t his drudge. And she claimed she really did care for him and want to marry him all the better.

And if he really is as ill as all that, then he’ll die and she’ll be a rich widow. Which is not always the best thing but is a darn sight better than a spinster. They didn’t know the roaring 20’s were around the corner. I mean its good that they (apparently) now care for her emotions but very few would actually have been going “don’t marry him” even at the altar.

Strallen fleeing Edith at the altar would create more gossip that Edith was so unmarriageable that a man as “honourable” as Strallen was forced to break the engagement and *not* give her space to find someone better. Of course this being TV she found love again asap but it would have been a huge scandal IRL.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Featherhat

[Tetraneutron]

Using that logic, the Crawleys should have abandoned Edith for being an unwed mother, not welcomed Marigold into their home. 

 

I agree that in a realistic gritty Wire-type drama and not a fluffy soap, things should play out differently. In that case, yes, Edith should be happy to marry her Mr. Collins and relieved he wasn't a rapist. I agree her parents should have been relieved, if not actively pushing him on her. I agree no one would ever dump someone at the altar like that. But we aren't watching The Wire and we aren't watching a documentary. My point is, in this show, that we actually are watching, Edith never loved Strallen. She was marrying him just so she wouldn't be an old spinster and everybody (from her parents to Strallen himself) knew it. That's the reason he gave for dumping her, in fact. 

 

She said, as people here have pointed out "I'm going to make you my life's work." Does that sound like love? Or does it sound like making the best of a bad situation? And all other romances, the man chased the woman. Matthew, Gillingham, and Henry chased Mary, Tom chased Sybil, and Gregson and Bertie chased Edith. But Edith chased Strallen. Here, as everyone has pointed out, Edith sweated and strived to make herself into someone Strallen would want, into his ideal companion. Not love. Needing to be married. 

[ZoloftBlob]

Using that logic, the Crawleys should have abandoned Edith for being an unwed mother, not welcomed Marigold into their home.

 

You say this like it wasn't common back then for a father to turn out a daughter that "ruined" herself. Or to insist the child of adultery not be brought to the house, or to pretend his wife had the child and force Edith to raise her daughter as her "younger sister".

 

The unrealistic aspect of 1920s Robert's reaction to his daughter being a single mother is that his reaction is that of a man of 2015, that it's no big deal.

 

But Edith chased Strallen

 

Not entirely true. Strallan did chase Edith in season one. He sought her out for dates and car rides. He felt, after the war, that he wasn't worthy for her because he was a cripple, but when he was hale and hearty in season one, he did the pursuing.