Season 2: Hangin' Out on the Farm

[ghoulina]

So I thought I'd start a topic where we can discuss everything - the journey our characters have taken, comparing and contrasting, etc. Perhaps other people are marathoning leading up to the premiere - or maybe I'm the only one, haha. But I have thoughts all the time as I re-watch and there isn't one good place for them. 

 

 

So I'm currently in the beginning of season 2, and I was thinking about CDB basically taking over Hershel's farm. I know a lot of people hated on them for that, and I do agree that if someone tells you to get off of their property you should. But then I have to wonder what would have eventually become of the Greene family? They were woefully under-armed and incredibly naive about the entire situation. Is it better for them that CDB showed up in their lives? Or not? If they had never come upon the farm, OR if they had left right after Carl recovered, would the Greenes still be riding it out in moderate tranquility? 

 

That herd that took over the farm at the end - I think it's much speculated they were attracted by Shane's crazy barn shooting. If so, you could say CDB brought that upon them. But if that hadn't happened, do you think they would have been safe forever? Or do you think a herd would have eventually made its way there? Or marauders of some sort? Perhaps Tony and Dave would have found them, having never been killed by Rick in the bar. 

 

Putting aside the fact that it's really no one else's  job to determine what is best for you, were the Greenes essentially better off in the long run, being brought into CDB?

[Too Late Kev]

I think there were originally 5 people on the Greene farm -- Herschel, Maggie, Beth, Patricia, and Otis. Let me know if I forgot anyone -- maybe a late-teen early 20s boy? It's so long ago I watched that season. Also, does anyone know who Otis was? Was he Patricia's brother? Patricia was Herschel's 2nd wife, right? I know Otis was special to Patricia in some way, but I don't know if it was ever made clear who he really was.

 

There are 2 of those 5 left, currently separated and not in great situations. Up until recently, there were 3 and they were all together and reasonably happy (given the circumstances).

 

If CDB had never come, it's possible the Greenes would have been all right for quite some time. But at some point, a herd of walkers could have come, or a nasty group. In either of those circumstances, I think the Greenes were pretty unprepared.

 

If it was a herd and they saw it coming, it's possible that the Greenes could close up the house and get in the basement before the walkers saw/smelled them. Then maybe the majority of the herd would go past the house and they could eventually come out of the basement and take care of any walkers rattling around the house. Or, if they had gas, the Greenes could have hopped in a car and gotten away, then circled around in a day or so to try to reclaim their home. But I have to think, especially with the way they were putting themselves at risk by avoiding killing the zombies, that there would have been deaths bit by bit (so to speak).

 

If it was a nasty group...I can't imagine the Greenes realizing the bad guys were coming before the bad guys knew there were people (and in particular, females) on that farm. So no amount of hiding somewhere would be effective. It's possible a Green or two could escape in a vehicle (or on horses), if the bad guys were approaching the house on foot and unable to give chase. But probably no one would cut and run unless they knew everyone could, which would mean a bad result for all of them.

 

A third possibility would be Hershel's eventual death by natural causes, like a heart attack, and then he turns into a zombie and gobbles them all up before they know what's happening and/or before they can get him to the damned barn.

[BellaLugosi]

Beth's boyfriend Jimmy was there.  Otis was Hershel's farmhand, Patricia was his wife. Patricia worked with Hershel in his veterinary business. Hershel's wife was killed by a zombie, she was one of the ones in the barn, along with Hershel's son.

 

I don't think they would have lasted at the farm. I don't think you can stay in one place for a long time and be safe.  In the episode where the herd came through, it was supposed to show that the herd had come all the way from Atlanta. They were following noise. Once they got near the farm, even if they hadn't heard the gunshots, they would have smelled the cows. I can't remember how many Hershel said they had but it was a lot.  There's no way they would have been safe there. 

 

I think about this way too much LOL.  I think the key to surviving is to keep moving, while staying in the same general area that you get to know. Like you know how Rick and Carol found some food growing in those back yards? They should be planting in places like that, spread it out. Have several places where they know they could be safe for a few nights. it just seems like settling in and getting comfortable is a death sentence.   I think about at the prison. Why wasn't someone on guard inside  at night, in case someone died naturally in their sleep and turned?  

 

What is CDB?

[Too Late Kev]

Camp Dinner Bell, a nickname for the original group that sat around in the wilderness with campers and tents. Ring! Ring! Come and get it, walkers!

[BellaLugosi]

Haha thanks.  I don't spend a lot of time talking about the show online on boards and such because I love it dearly and I am a huge wuss about people saying nasty things about it. So I never heard this one.  On my Twitter everyone loves it LOL.

[halgia]

Hey – we're trying to avoid "talk about everything" topics for most shows (too easy for it to become the catch-all for everything). I renamed this to the Season 2 thread since that's what it was about so far, and started threads for 1 and 3 (4 already had one). If you want to discuss something that goes beyond one season, just choose a reasonable season or character thread, or start a new one.

[kikismom]

• In Beside The Dying Fire, Daryl said that a herd that size would tear the house down. Now I love Daryl but that makes no sense. Walkers haven't torn down any buildings. If you don't leave the front door open and you've nailed boards over the windows, what's the problem? Just get in the house, let the walkers surround the house (encourage them if you want by waving and flashing your boobs like Mardi Gras). Go up to the second floor and pick them off below you.

Instead of driving around in circles shooting like Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show, why don't you bring out a horse to the field and shoot it in the leg, Otis-style. Calm down everyone...if you think about it the horses were going to die anyway (and the cows and the chickens etc etc) so it's not as if it's worse. A fallen wounded animal would draw the walkers and when then are converged on the prey, you could shoot a lot more of them. Besides, it keeps them concentrated in one area instead of surrounding you. And it's a lot easier than trying to lead a cow. A chicken just isn't enough to do the job.

When they get stranded on the road when Rick runs out of gas...why don't they siphon some out of Glenn's car? If Glenn and Maggie are going to get gas the next morning, and then make the return trip driving back with gas for Rick's truck, it means they had enough gas to spare some and they could have just sucked up a gallon for Rick's truck and all gone on together! They just finished being separated in a horrible tragedy which made them fear they would not find each other again because they were too stupid to have a rendezvous point and now they risk lives...by separating?!   Not to mention that they just really wasted gas by making a round-trip gas run that wasn't necessary.

[kj4ever]

I think they definitely needed Shane's wake up call, even if it could have been delivered a with a bit more finesse.  Maggie said there were 50 head of cattle on the farm.  My Grandparents had 3 cows and a bull and just four of them were LOUD.  I'm sure the zombies they had captured were drawn by the noise from town.  As far as Atlanta zombies, it probably depends how far they were from a main road.  The sound from gun shots would definitely carry more than cows.  

 

The fact that Herschel wouldn't allow shooting on his property is probably what kept them safe as long as it did.  The target practice outside of his property probably brought the herd closer to the farm, and then the shooting of Shane probably brought them to the farm.  Eventually something would have happened to bring them in, and even if they got in the house in time I bet a bunch of them would have hung around as there was a lot of food opportunity with the cows, chickens, and horses.

 

There was a reason why Patricia broke those chicken's legs.  They are FAST.  If they got out of the coop they would have lasted a good while even with a herd, keeping them on the farm.  The cows would have been slaughtered pretty quickly.  The horses, well if they got out of the barn they probably would have been fine.  When in a pack they take turns sleeping with one on the look out, and they see from both sides, so they would have been so out of there and living the life of freedom.  Herschel and Co. would not be prepared to deal with a bunch of zombies hanging around, especially if they didn't want to kill any of them.

 

I know a lot of people didn't like season two because they thought it was "talkie" or a "soap opera", but it was needed.  It brought in a lot of beloved characters, and it also gave us insight into the characters we already knew.  I loved season one, but I needed season two to actually care if the people from Camp Atlanta actually lived.  It also made me want people to become Walker snacks, namely Shane, Lori, and Andrea.  Oh and Carl.  Yes, I wanted a child to die.  Damn you TWD.

[ghoulina]

In Beside The Dying Fire, Daryl said that a herd that size would tear the house down. Now I love Daryl but that makes no sense. Walkers haven't torn down any buildings. If you don't leave the front door open and you've nailed boards over the windows, what's the problem? Just get in the house, let the walkers surround the house (encourage them if you want by waving and flashing your boobs like Mardi Gras). Go up to the second floor and pick them off below you.

 

That's true, we haven't seen them tear down any buildings - but had we ever seen a heard that size surrounding an old wooden farmhouse? In downtown ATL, all the builds are made of concrete, stone, brick, etc. But they did eventually break the window in the department store. Had CDB actually boarded up all the windows at this point? Even if they had, I don't think it's inconceivable that they could eventually get into that house. Zombies are mindlessly determined. If there's a trace of a human, they're going to stay out there and try and try and not give up. If one grabbed onto a loose board in that old house and kept pulling.....And how would you ever get out to go get supplies? I think, at that point, they made the right decision to leave. They hadn't fortified well enough, the herd was too freaking huge, and not all of their people were together in the house at that point anyhow. They had to act fast. 

[kikismom]

That's true, we haven't seen them tear down any buildings - but had we ever seen a heard that size surrounding an old wooden farmhouse? In downtown ATL, all the builds are made of concrete, stone, brick, etc. But they did eventually break the window in the department store. Had CDB actually boarded up all the windows at this point? Even if they had, I don't think it's inconceivable that they could eventually get into that house. Zombies are mindlessly determined. If there's a trace of a human, they're going to stay out there and try and try and not give up. If one grabbed onto a loose board in that old house and kept pulling.....And how would you ever get out to go get supplies? I think, at that point, they made the right decision to leave. They hadn't fortified well enough, the herd was too freaking huge, and not all of their people were together in the house at that point anyhow. They had to act fast. 

Oh yeah, first I should say I didn't mean for them to continue living at the farm. But the exit strategy sucked---because they didn't have one.

 

Atlanta may be concrete, stone, and brick...but we see the group begin Season 3 by entering a wood frame house (which looked pretty rickety by the way) and there were walkers trapped inside. The one desiccated old broad couldn't even get out of the closet.

 

The pecan farm, the houses in that little town, all wood...but the kicker is the barn. Hell that had ..spaces between the old dried boards that they could grab through, and they didn't pull it apart with horses and people going by all day. I think Herschel's house would have held together. Or use it to bait the walkers in through an open door, then burn it down like the barn. But people running around then trying to herd them (was the word used in the show) just had no chance of success.

 

With a herd that big, yes you need to escape; but that won't work if you don't get everyone--so you need to slow the walkers down if you can, and try to funnel them in concentrated place. Hershel should have let the animals loose, even if that means wounding them to fall to the walkers. That would have been better for Rick and Carl (not to mention Jimmy! and Andrea! and Patricia!).

 

By the way, go back and check the episode Triggerfinger: when the boy who turns out to be Randall is impaled on the fence, you'll hear Herschel say "We might have to put him down" Herschel says the boy was likely to die of his wounds and it would be more merciful, as his friends were at that moment being eaten by walkers. That was before the farm was over-run, so he would have been okay with sacrificing the horses rather than people. (BTW---Rick doesn't banish him for thinking that way, or fear having Herschel around his family because of some worry that he might "put them down". (just snarking, but you know what I mean!)

 

Horse would do well if being chased from behind on open ground. The problem would be the way walkers can come from every direction; if a horse/horses got surrounded remember that walkers have no fear of pain or death so even if some got trampled a few bites would be all it took.

I'm thinking especially if the horses were on the road, walkers come from all sides; if a horse goes into thick woods like Andrea running away from the farm a horse can't really build up enough speed to elude them.

And an open field where the horses could see danger means the walkers could also spot them easily. Horses also need water. Walkers (like other predators) learn fast to travel the banks of rivers, streams, creeks or lakes because that's where other animals have to come to get the water they need.

 

 

  The horses, well if they got out of the barn they probably would have been fine.  When in a pack they take turns sleeping with one on the look out, and they see from both sides, so they would have been so out of there and living the life of freedom. 

Unfortunately, as we saw when the economy crashed, a lot of people thought they could just release the horses they could no longer afford to feed, and the horses could live in "the wild". What happened is that a lot of horses starved to death. A horse needs a good 15-20 lbs of hay per day (with good protein content) to stay alive, if the horse has to run a lot it would be more. Chomping off lawn grass, even abandoned pasture, bite by bite would take more time when you can't stand in the open for 30 minutes without being spotted. Horses can also make a lot of noise, and I'm afraid the remaining humans would be drawn as much as zombies. I don't think the life of freedom would last very long. Daryl opened that walker in the creek when they searched for Sophia, and it had eaten a woodchuck. I would suspect that's harder to corner than a horse.

[ghoulina]

Just watched Triggerfinger last night! I just can't with that whole Randall storyline. They should have just shot him and hightailed it out of there. Ugh, it drives me crazy every time.

 

Loosing the animals would have been a great idea, I just don't know that they had time. That herd was all over the place, out of nowhere. It was complete chaos. And they were totally unprepared.

[kikismom]

Just watched Triggerfinger last night! I just can't with that whole Randall storyline. They should have just shot him and hightailed it out of there. Ugh, it drives me crazy every time.

 

Loosing the animals would have been a great idea, I just don't know that they had time. That herd was all over the place, out of nowhere. It was complete chaos. And they were totally unprepared.

My sentiments exactly! :-D

The Randall Experience may have made me yell at the screen even more than the Governor arc.

I'm screaming at the tv just shoot him!

When they get back it gets worse.

I can't watch without wanting to be there just to yell at Dale.

Then the whole thing where Lori helps herself to Maggie's car, wrecks it, has to be searched for by Shane, because he has nothing else to do while Rick and Glenn and Herschel are missing, and Daryl's up in his fortress of solitude being pissy (rightfully, I admit) about Olive Oyl going to look for Rick. So that left who minding the store? Dale? Jimmy? T-Dawg and his poisoned arm? Carl?

 

You're absolutely right about the time factor. Which ties in to their being totally unprepared. All I can think while watching Triggerfinger and 18 Miles Out is that they need to have a sit-down and get a policy for the group and anticipate what problems they could have and how they would respond. Hard to believe Rick and Shane were cops but didn't do this.  All the group is doing is focusing on who is sleeping with who, when they can/can't sleep with them again, etc.

 

It especially bothered me about Randall that not only was he enemy that they needed to do something with, but he was a severely wounded enemy. (Although in this show's magical recovery timeline he's back on his feet in no time.) If you are lucky enough to be given shelter by a stranger, given food and water by a stranger with a farm that produces these necessities, and you're lucky enough to have your son's life saved from a gunshot wound by the same stranger, wouldn't it be nice if you weren't so cavalier about insisting this enemy be given a complicated surgery and meds and care provided by your benefactor? Jeez, this happened right after the barn massacre, you think it really helps your case in getting permission to stay?

 

Daryl knew it when he said "This group is broken".

Herschel knew it when he said "You people are a plague!"

Edited August 24, 2014 by kikismom

[kj4ever]

I think it was Randall's age that bothered them the most.  If one of those older dudes would have been speared Rick would have left him without batting an eye.

[kikismom]

I think it was Randall's age that bothered them the most.  If one of those older dudes would have been speared Rick would have left him without batting an eye.

Yeah, Rick protests "he's a CHILD!" lol. Which explains why Carl was so out of control if his father thinks a teenager running with gang-bangers is just a child, then Carl stealing loaded firearms is just kids do the darndest things!

[ghoulina]

Well, I can understand that, though. The kid might have been someone's younger brother that just got wrapped up in their little group. He might have been playing along to stay alive, to have the protection of a bigger, stronger group. I can see Rick entertaining that idea. But the problem is they just didn't know. He also could have been playing them all, in order to escape and help his group out. 

 

To be honest, once it got that far - I would have had a problem knowing what to do with the dude myself. That's why I wish they would have just killed him right off. At that point, it could be considered a mercy killing. But once they had him back at the farm and he was relatively out of danger, it becomes a more cold, cruel task. I did kind of agree with Dale then - "we're going to murder someone based on what he MIGHT do?" Ugh, they just fucked it up so badly that it became an impossible decision. I really don't know what I would have done had I been there. 

[kikismom]

If all I knew about Randall was him being impaled on the fence, I might buy that he was just hangin with the bad guys. But when RIck and Shane took him and dumped him with a knife a few yards away...what does he do? Instead of being scared and getting himself freed, he has to add taunting a walker with his 'C'mon bitch...'etc etc and being all lit up like he was really excited and in a knife-fighting stance when a normal person would just be glad to get away. Re-watch it; and see how into it Randall gets. The look on his face is not the look of someone who was telling the truth about being an innocent bystander during a gang rape, or anything else. Even Merle and Shane didn't look like that when they killed walkers.

When you get to Season 3, and Rick and Daryl are clearing the back rooms to the cafeteria with the remaining prisoners, when the one guy takes his knife down the other guy's head, Rick and Daryl say to each other "Did you see the look on his face?" "Uh-huh. Just give me the signal."

In a ZA, everyone's going to tell you they should be kept alive because they'd never do you no harm. Talk is cheap. Watch their eyes when they see something freaky...if they look excited, there's your answer.

Rick and Shane were fighting but they did see Randall and the female walker.

Randall was not going to turn out to be okay. He was a freak, and I would have shot him based on the smell of a rat.

[ghoulina]

That's literally my next episode to watch in my marathon, so I'll look for that part!

[kj4ever]

M tablet isn't letting me quote, but ITA kiki. I think if the same scenario played out now Rick would shoot him dead. I do think that for most people letting go of those morals from before, especially for an officer of the law who has a young son, would take some time and mistakes. The mistakes would unfortunately be costly, but it seems very real to me.

[kikismom]

... letting go of those morals from before, especially for an officer of the law who has a young son, would take some time and mistakes.

Remember at the department store when Rick took out the driver's license of the guy they gutted, and said I'm gonna remember Wayne, I'm gonna tell my children about him

(hahaha).

That attitude didn't last long. Judith will be lucky if he tells her about Lori.

By the end of season 2, he's like "Andrea's gone, or dead, whatever!"

.

[kj4ever]

Remember at the department store when Rick took out the driver's license of the guy they gutted, and said I'm gonna remember Wayne, I'm gonna tell my children about him

(hahaha).

That attitude didn't last long. Judith will be lucky if he tells her about Lori.

By the end of season 2, he's like "Andrea's gone, or dead, whatever!"

.

Judith will be lucky if he doesn't tell her about Lori!

[ghoulina]

If all I knew about Randall was him being impaled on the fence, I might buy that he was just hangin with the bad guys. But when RIck and Shane took him and dumped him with a knife a few yards away...what does he do? Instead of being scared and getting himself freed, he has to add taunting a walker with his 'C'mon bitch...'etc etc and being all lit up like he was really excited and in a knife-fighting stance when a normal person would just be glad to get away. Re-watch it; and see how into it Randall gets. The look on his face is not the look of someone who was telling the truth about being an innocent bystander during a gang rape, or anything else. Even Merle and Shane didn't look like that when they killed walkers.

 

Okay, I watched it last night (along with Judge, Jury, and Executioner and Better Angels) and you're right. He is way too into it. There's also a moment when they are driving away that he's cheering and acting like they just won a bar fight or something. Randal is definitely questionable. It would still be hard for me to execute someone like that, though. It's not the same as a mercy killing when he was stuck on the fence, or a self-defense killing if he attacked one of them. Or even an execution if he had been found guilty of something and they put him to death. But here they're just going on conjecture and trying to prevent a possibility. A strong possibility? Yes. But I just don't know....I'd probably be like Hershel was originally and say, "I don't want to know". 

 

But that whole incident in 18 Miles Out really highlighted, again, that Shane just doesn't have the leadership qualities he thinks he does. Shane is not creative. Shane isn't fluid. Shane just has his tough-guy attitude, but he doesn't stop to think that different situations warrant different remedies. He never would have though to draw blood, lure the walkers, and then stab them with the knife. It was RICK who realized that they couldn't keep using the guns as heavily as they had been, for many reasons. He was the one thinking proactively and trying to plan for the future, for how they're going to survive this thing long-term. 

 

But....I think Shane insisting that HE is better at protecting Lori and Carl still eats away at Rick, and makes him question himself. I tend to wonder if that's part of why he comes back so hardline about Randall, and insisting he be "dealt with". He wants to prove to Shane, to Lori, to himself that he IS tough and he CAN handle this world and keep everyone safe. But then when Dale dies, he realizes that isn't him. 

[kikismom]

Okay, I watched it last night (along with Judge, Jury, and Executioner and Better Angels) and you're right. He is way too into it. There's also a moment when they are driving away that he's cheering and acting like they just won a bar fight or something. Randal is definitely questionable. It would still be hard for me to execute someone like that, though. It's not the same as a mercy killing when he was stuck on the fence, or a self-defense killing if he attacked one of them. Or even an execution if he had been found guilty of something and they put him to death. But here they're just going on conjecture and trying to prevent a possibility. A strong possibility? Yes. But I just don't know....I'd probably be like Hershel was originally and say, "I don't want to know". 

 

 

They might not be going just on conjecture. True, he had not killed or attacked one of them.

He traveled with people who tried to kill Rick Glenn and Herschel. Now it isn't just that he went with them; it's a question of why they took him. The killers would be the tough guys. They wouldn't take anyone along on these rides who wasn't willing to do what they needed him to do.

Also, I think in the ZA a new factor comes in that isn't necessary in our lives. That is the issue of letting mentally ill people live. Lizzie killed Mika, but they didn't kill Lizzie as punishment or revenge...it was because they went through all the options and realized there is no way to keep her around in these circumstances. There's no medication, no psychiatric hospitals, nothing. She had a condition that would never get better and never be manageable. They put down a physically healthy person.

Randall did things that weren't nice, but not yet proven to be as bad as others. There was a conjecture he could do evil, and perhaps had already, somewhere else that they didn't know about. But there's also the problem that must be acknowledged...his reactions, his "affect"  was not that of a mentally stable person even a bad one. A bad guy might taunt his enemies out of cruelty, but taunting a non-sentient walker, and panting with excitement and grinning...that's clinically disturbed. And like you said, he's cheering in the car like they won a bar fight. It wasn't just what they had been through but he's still with captors who were his targets/enemies and he's getting manic-level excited? I couldn't exterminate people now...but in a ZA...a sociopath is not like a dog that's allowed one bite before it's considered dangerous.

[ghoulina]

That's a good point about Lizzie. The difference being, though, they had confirmed evidence of her being dangerous. She HAD killed someone, her own sister. Anyhow, I'm not saying killing Randall was necessarily the wrong thing, but I couldn't get fully on board with it being the right thing either. That's what is so interesting about this show - it's definitely not black and white. I just wish they would have killed him on the fence, as mercy killing. That would have made things much more simple. 

[kj4ever]

That's a good point about Lizzie. The difference being, though, they had confirmed evidence of her being dangerous. She HAD killed someone, her own sister. Anyhow, I'm not saying killing Randall was necessarily the wrong thing, but I couldn't get fully on board with it being the right thing either. That's what is so interesting about this show - it's definitely not black and white. I just wish they would have killed him on the fence, as mercy killing. That would have made things much more simple. 

But then they wouldn't have been able to drive around and talk about it for 2 episodes... ;)

[ghoulina]

Just finished season 2. The main thing that always bugs me about the final episode (which is one of my favorites) - WHY did Jimmy stand up??? Why??? As soon as he heard the thunk of Rick and Carl landing on the roof, he should have been out of there! 

 

And this episode gave me one of the only Rick decisions I've ever been strongly against - not telling the group that they're all infected. Of course he's made several mistakes along the way, but who wouldn't? This one just really bothered me. He asks if it would have made a difference - YES! Hell yes it would have. That is pertinent information that everyone needed to know. So you weren't sure it was even true? Why even take that chance? What if Carl died from his gunshot? What if Beth HAD killed herself, and when your pregnant wife found her she had turned and attacked her? And then came for Carl, and the others? What if Hershel died in the night? Or Dale? What if Randall had bled out in the back of car, and someone opened it and got bit? Or he died of dehydration in the barn? A million things could have happened and I really do think he was putting them all in danger by keeping that information to himself. 

[ladyrott]

ghoulina, I normally agree with you, but I am going to have to differ on the "Rick telling people everyone is infected".  In a way, I can see where everyone has a RIGHT to have that information, but I honestly don't see that giving them that info would make a difference in their lives, one way or another (other than maybe changing how people kill themselves since they don't want to come back as walkers).  I can see your logic in the examples you gave, certainly Rick might have considered the ramifications of his dying with that secret, but in the situation he was in, I think I would have done the same. 

[Ocean Chick]

If all I knew about Randall was him being impaled on the fence, I might buy that he was just hangin with the bad guys. But when RIck and Shane took him and dumped him with a knife a few yards away...what does he do? Instead of being scared and getting himself freed, he has to add taunting a walker with his 'C'mon bitch...'etc etc and being all lit up like he was really excited and in a knife-fighting stance when a normal person would just be glad to get away. Re-watch it; and see how into it Randall gets. The look on his face is not the look of someone who was telling the truth about being an innocent bystander during a gang rape, or anything else. Even Merle and Shane didn't look like that when they killed walkers.

 

So what does that tell us about Abraham then?  Remember Tara mentioning the excited, gleeful look on his face when he killed the walkers in his first episode?  And his taunting talk to them?  Does that make Abe someone we should fear and maybe kill?

 

Carl also taunted that walker stuck in the mud at the farm, and threw rocks at it.  I just took that scene with Randall as them showing he was basically a big kid with no real sense - a bigger version of Carl.

[ghoulina]

ghoulina, I normally agree with you, but I am going to have to differ on the "Rick telling people everyone is infected".  In a way, I can see where everyone has a RIGHT to have that information, but I honestly don't see that giving them that info would make a difference in their lives, one way or another (other than maybe changing how people kill themselves since they don't want to come back as walkers).  I can see your logic in the examples you gave, certainly Rick might have considered the ramifications of his dying with that secret, but in the situation he was in, I think I would have done the same.

 

But why? Why hold onto it? How does it help anything? Did he think it would cause people to panic? Because I don't really see that. It might freak people out to some degree, but it would help them be even more prepared to navigate this world. I think all of those examples I listed ARE things that could happen in their every day lives. The ZA is dangerous - and not just because of walkers. People can die at any time for any reason. Rick knows that. And if he knew that there was even a slight possibility that no matter how you die you come back, he needed to tell others. He can't be with everyone at every time, to make sure. In season 4 we complained so much about the prison gang not barring their doors, in case someone died in the night. So I definitely would have complained that Rick didn't tell me - "Hey, if one of you dies in the night, he can come back and eat the entire camp". 

[Emily Thrace]

But why? Why hold onto it? How does it help anything?

I think that more of an example of Rick being cautios than anything else. I always thought he simply didn't believe Jenner at first(or didn't want to) and that's why he kept quiet. Jenner was several different kinds of nuts afterall. Why cause a panic over something that might just be a lie or a delusion? 

[kikismom]

So what does that tell us about Abraham then?  Remember Tara mentioning the excited, gleeful look on his face when he killed the walkers in his first episode?  And his taunting talk to them?  Does that make Abe someone we should fear and maybe kill?

 

Carl also taunted that walker stuck in the mud at the farm, and threw rocks at it.  I just took that scene with Randall as them showing he was basically a big kid with no real sense - a bigger version of Carl.

Carl and Abraham were showing frat-boy type bravado, like some asshole throwing pennies at bears in the zoo, it was more about ego. Randall wasn't caring about impressing other people or feeling daring...watch his scene, he's panting so much I worried the character was getting aroused by it. Randall was oblivious to what was going on around him; he was getting high on it. Randall wasn't messing with the walker out of curiousity, or defending other people like Captain America. Randall looked like someone who gets charged up by beating his girlfriend. To me at least, it was different.

I've been happy to kill a spider in the bathtub; but I don't think I'm plugged into the same energy as someone who sets a kitten on fire or stomps a bunny with a stiletto and takes video on their i-phone and posts it on animal-snuff-porn sites. We both killed a living thing from the animal kingdom, but the reasons we were doing it and glad to do it are miles apart.

But everybody's got their own take on it. ( I'll confess that at that moment in Carl's personality trip, I was rooting for the zombie. )

[ghoulina]

I agree, it was a bit different. Carl was taunting that walker out of curiosity. He'd never really gotten up close with them like some of the adults had and I think he was just testing his own fears and limits. And Abraham, yea - it's kind of a macho thing. To be honest, I found his attitude funny. He's been doing this so long, maybe it helps him to find some humor in it? Randall on the other hand was in some sort of a state, a frenzy. It was a bit off-putting, that's for sure. 

 

 

I think that more of an example of Rick being cautios than anything else. I always thought he simply didn't believe Jenner at first(or didn't want to) and that's why he kept quiet. Jenner was several different kinds of nuts afterall. Why cause a panic over something that might just be a lie or a delusion?

 

I really didn't see Jenner as being nuts at all. And I can't think of why he'd lie about something like that. He was telling Rick as they were leaving - going back out into that world. To me, it seemed like Jenner wanted Rick to know because that was one more threat they're going to have to deal with. Of course he couldn't be 100% sure, but I'd be apt to believe him. And anyhow, I just think the benefits of being told outweigh the risks. Would it really cause people to "panic"? Any more than they're already panicked? I'd rather be a bit more "panicked" and be prepared, than be caught totally unawares if someone dies and comes back and eats the whole camp. 

[kj4ever]

I think he thought it would cause a crisis and it was just one more thing he didn't want to deal with at the time.  He was dead wrong in that decision, but I get why he did it.

 

The guy was seriously second guessing himself, and I didn't realize how bad it was until he thought his own son was going to shoot him because he thought he saw him kill Shane.  How far down does your confidence in yourself have to go to believe that?

[momlyd]

How far down does your confidence in yourself have to go to believe that?

I think in that moment, Rick may have thought that he deserved it. He had just killed his partner and best friend. Take away all the mitigating circumstances and stand there with him. He had just put a knife in the gut of one of the people in the world who knew him best. And was okay with it.

 

Then, he turns and sees his impressionable young son standing there as a witness. All the reasons for killing Shane - which were pretty darn good and long overdue, in my opinion - fly out the window because his kid had just seen him murder a person they had all known and loved. 

 

When Carl raised the pistol and Rick began sputtering, I can see just a moment where he thinks to himself, well, damned if I don't deserve this end. When Carl shoots past him to put Shane down, he is confused and it takes a while for him to realize what he had just seen.

 

 

On another note, I blame Lori for Shane flipping out. After the battle with Rick while in the police yard, Shane seemed to have come to a resolution regarding his relationship with the Grimes family. If given enough time, he would have left the group to start over elsewhere, possibly taking Andrea with him. When Lori went over to him and "made nice", it slipped his gears and he went nuts. What on earth was she thinking?

[ghoulina]

I don't think Lori realized how screwed up in the head Shane was at the moment. There was more to it than just their love triangle. He was also dealing with the fact that he had killed Otis. And I think he was having a hard time with everyone immediately following Rick, when he had clearly been the group leader prior to Rick showing up. Throw in his feelings for Lori on top of it and he was a walking time bomb. But she didn't know all of that. Yes, all the back and forth (she's pissed, now she's nice, now she's pissed again) just made things worse, but I don't think she meant to do it. I think she had legitimate reasons for being upset with him, but when she worked past them she genuinely cared for Shane and wanted him to still be a part of their lives. I always imagine that Shane was the one who was way more into her, thus he had a harder time going back to the way things used to be. 

[momlyd]

I see that, but she also just told Rick that Shane was dangerous and wanted Rick's family for himself. Someone in the forums said she went Lady MacBeth and that seems to fit. I think she liked the drama that centered around her. I thought Andrea's truth telling to Lori after leaving Beth alone to decide whether to live or not was accurate. Andrea would know!! 

 

I thought that when Rick told her what had happened with Shane, her physical reactions were telling. She raised her head off his shoulder, then let go of him, then backed away a bit, then started looking around, then entirely lost it when Rick told her that Carl had to put Shane down. I think she was okay with Rick killing Shane but not her son.

[ghoulina]

Oh yea, that final part where she was whispering in Rick's ear about how dangerous Shane was was really wrong. I'm not saying Lori was a complete innocent. I think they all played their parts in fouling this mess up. But I really don't think she was playing an intentional back and forth with Shane. I simply think she was having conflicting emotions. But when she saw that Shane could never let it go, I think she just wanted Rick to "deal" with him. And it was really shitty of her to pit her husband against his best friend. But....I don't know that anything she said was false. Shane DID aim his gun at Rick way before the farm, right after they were all reunited. I don't know if he could have ever been fully trusted. 

 

And yes, I totally think Lori's reaction was more about Carl's part in it than Shane being killed. 

[kj4ever]

Perhaps if she wanted to lady macbeth she should have told him he tried to rape her once everything came to light.

Edited September 3, 2014 by kj4ever

[kj4ever]

Here's a season two thought. ..

Re:Andrea vs Lori

So how much of Lori's outburst to Andrea was about Andrea doing men's work and being lazy or how much was due to the fact that Andrea was spending a lot of time with Shane?

 

I hadn't really thought about that before, but after a rewatch of Triggerfinger? I think - when they are all in the dining room talking about what to do with Randall - Shane storms off after Herschel tells him off and Andrea goes after him.  For just a brief second there is a look on Lori's face (ok bug eyes) that I thought was interesting...

Edited September 3, 2014 by kj4ever

[kikismom]

So how much of Lori's outburst to Andrea was about Andrea doing men's work and being lazy or how much was due to the fact that Andrea was spending a lot of time with Shane?

 

 

Good point.

 

This also bothered me...when Andrea brings up how Lori just helped herself to Maggie's car without asking and then wrecked it, Lori rolls her eyes and huffs wrecking the car! like it's preposterous that she should be bothered about that. Excuse me, it's someone's car, not a paper clip you lost. I got the feeling Lori felt entitled to whatever she wanted to use that someone else paid for.

I also hate the mannerism in the kitchen scenes---Lori's always taking one slice of cucumber between two fingertips, turning it to and fro, and examining it, and then taking one teeny nibble; rinse and repeat. Must be something she learned before the ZA on those helpful-hints-for-anorexics websites.

Andrea should have told Lori about her and Shane. I would have liked to see Andrea say "oh and you know what? I totally did Shane! In broad daylight! And he said it was great to get a fuck that didn't feel like riding a bike with a triangular wheel down the railroad tracks!"

Then Lori's eyes would finally bug till they popped out of  her head and we could be done with it.

Edited September 3, 2014 by kikismom

[ghoulina]

LOL, I never considered that angle before. But it's possible. Just another thing to look for on my next re-watch!

[kj4ever]

I always knew the Shane/Andrea was just a random hookup fueled by their recent fight, but it would have been a glorious disaster if they would have tried to be a couple. 

[momlyd]

I tend to knit or do other things while watching TV, so I did not see all the nuances in the conversation/fight between Andrea and Lori about Shane. I heard the significant emphasis on the word "boyfriend" when Andrea was taking Lori to task and wondered if she got the reaction she was looking for. I should go back and re-watch. I am certain that Andrea would probably have thrown her fling with Shane at Lori at some point down the line if things hadn't changed so dramatically. 

 

However, if Lori had lived, and Shane hadn't been knifed and shot, and Andrea hadn't been separated after the horde came through, there would have been another triangle to deal with. I'm glad the show just killed them all off.

[Boofish]

I'm an unapologetic Rick fan. My take on all his decisions is at any time every last one of them could have walked away. No one was forced or obligated to follow or listen to him. I only liked Lori once when she basically told them that and I was already in love with Rick but it was full on when he told them all to STFU or get out. Every last one of them would be dead with the exception of Lori and Carl had they only had Shane to rely on.

[ghoulina]

Every last one of them would be dead with the exception of Lori and Carl had they only had Shane to rely on.

 

There's no question about that in my mind. Shane unequivocally stated that the only people he cared about were Lori and Carl. It's like he was using the group for what they could do for him (the men were extra numbers/fighters, the women cooked and washed his clothing), but he could have cared less about their survival. Rick, OTOH, obviously would place his family first, but he genuinely cared about the other members of the group and took their thoughts/feelings on matters into consideration. 

 

I don't say this to portray Shane as some total prick who hated everyone and hoped they died. I just think he had tunnel vision when it came to Lori and Carl. He had this mentality that you had to become totally cutthroat to survive and once he sacrificed Otis I think he would have done the same to anyone else. Rick tended to be more pragmatic. 

[Boofish]

Here is the difference for me. Shane, Lori et. al saw it all happen from the beginning. They knew what the world had become and what they were up against. All of this was a total shock to Rick's system and I feel season 1 and 2 he was doing a trail by error sort of thing so I gave him a pass on some of the more "HUH" moments. But I cut Shane no slack (even though after he cut off that curly fro, he was 100% doable but I digress). It was Shane who had them living in an open camp from what I could see was only 3 guns and hardly any ammo. The shotgun he had, the one Andrea had (which remember she didn't even know how to take off the safety so she could fire that darn thing) and the one that somehow ended up in Merle's hands! What the hell kind of leader was he to send Glenn for supplies alone then with that ragtag group of can't-get-rights?!?! It was alright to sacrifce "men" in camp when he needed supplies? Not only that when he thought they were trapped he said to just leave them there. So you would have been down 4 able bodied men (Glen, Morales, Merle and T-Dog)

 

They all admitted Merle was a d-bag not worth risking their lives for but yet they sent him to the city to get supplies. And all those runs they never thought to ask Glenn to find some guns and bring back gas. It was just way too much stupid gathered together in one place

Edited September 10, 2014 by Boofish

[weightyghost]

I've come to terms with Lori over the last few seasons, accepted her somewhat questionable morals, but the two scenes in season 2 in particular that still bug me to this day is a)making Carol feel guilty about trying to find clothes and b) thinking Carl dying would be a solid option rather than surviving the gun shot. I get that the world is in a pretty terrible place, but it had only been going on for what, 2 months by that point? Wouldn't she rather hope that he survives and some time soon they'll be an answer? At that point, she doesn't know they're all infected so there's some bit of hope still there. 

[ghoulina]

Lori wondering if it would be better for Carl to die never really bothered me. I'd like to say that wouldn't even be an option for me, but it's hard to say what I would feel like in that situation. I imagine Lori was feeling pretty desperate and hopeless in that situation. They'd lost the quarry and the hopes of the CDC were blown to bits, then the attack on the highway, losing Sophia, and finally Carl is shot. This was all in a matter of days. She might have finally been shocked into realizing what a cruel world they're living in. While I may not feel the same way, I can't fault a parent for wanting to spare her child that. She wasn't think of herself, and how awful it would be to go on without him - but of her son, and how hard it would be growing up in this world. 

 

That's one thing I like about this show - even when I don't AGREE with all some of the character's reasoning and choices, I can often understand where there coming from.

[JBody]

Re. Randall being a bad dude: I remember that creepy scene with the female walker and thinking, "yep, psycho" and later, didn't Daryl beat him harder when he said something about the girls being raped? And finally, when he thinks Shane is helping him escape, he gets all pissy with him when Shane is still a bit too rough. Paraphrase: you're on our side now, stop being such an asshole to me. You're gonna fit in though, it gets kinda craaaazy sometimes, haha *weird glint in his eye*

The whole Randall thing was infuriating though. I was with Hershel (and ghoulina!) on the mercy killing option. But he was the plot device that needed to survive until he was put out of his misery. It was a major turning point on Rick's development too.

[ghoulina]

Ugh, yes, it was just so frustrating that they didn't kill him on the fence. Then there would have been no moral quandary - "He was impaled on the fence and walkers were coming. We killed him so he wasn't eaten alive". End of story. 

[kikismom]

Agreed; but, okay Herschel says "putting him down might be the most merciful thing". Bring in Rick's argument with Carol ("You don't know that!")

Randall was suffering. He could live. He could die horribly.

But you have other lives at stake, you err on the side of the greater good.

Not the side of being able to preserve your purity at the cost of risking lives.

Rick chose to save Randall. Herschel and Glenn both said gas him, but they were not then considered too dangerous-minded to be around Rick's family.

Just sayin.