S01.E05: We Light the Way

[king of bullshit]

3 hours ago, paigow said:

In a broad sense, Joffrey already knew that Criston was a wounded animal... 

How? What would have given Joffrey insight into Criston's state of mind? 

I don't understand why the idea that Joffrey assumed a parallel state of mind in Criston, given his position and the amount of knowledge he was privy to(that the princess had her own paramour) isn't the primary speculation on Joffrey's reasoning.

3 hours ago, paigow said:

However, if you decide to torment / provoke /  antagonize said animal, expecting it to attack would be reasonable.

All given reasons to support the idea that he provoked Criston sound to me like things being read onto the scene rather than anything objectively depicted. How, for example is

On 9/25/2022 at 8:53 PM, paigow said:

Joffrey decided to flex and be all This is how the real world works, you simpleton....

an objective reading of the scene? Why was he being condescending/lording himself over him there as opposed to neutrally stating something or entrusting his secret to someone that he felt was a kindred spirit who he wanted to put at ease by informing them that they had a brother in arms?

[WatchrTina]

On 9/19/2022 at 6:39 AM, Haleth said:

On 9/18/2022 at 9:46 PM, AntFTW said:

Do they not send ravens at this point in Westerosi history? Viserys had to drag his sickly self to Driftmark to propose a marriage?

That made no sense at all for a king to grovel like that.  I suppose it was to show how weak Viserys is, humbling himself in front of Corlys.  

Well . . . I seem to recall that the very first episode of Game of Thrones opens with the visit of a king to one of his vassal lords for the purpose of proposing a strategic marriage.  The trip to Driftmark, by ship, looks like a much less complicated undertaking.

Hey, I wonder if THIS king's visit to Driftmark to propose a marriage created a tradition and that's why King Robert makes the trip to Winterfell in the first episode of Game of Thrones?

[Meredith Quill]

13 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Well . . . I seem to recall that the very first episode of Game of Thrones opens with the visit of a king to one of his vassal lords for the purpose of proposing a strategic marriage.  The trip to Driftmark, by ship, looks like a much less complicated undertaking.

Hey, I wonder if THIS king's visit to Driftmark to propose a marriage created a tradition and that's why King Robert makes the trip to Winterfell in the first episode of Game of Thrones?

The primary purpose was to ask Ned to become Hand.

[Archangel]

On 9/21/2022 at 10:16 AM, SilverStormm said:

I know why.

The only reason he promoted Rhaenrya as heir in the first place was a machination to oust Daemon from being next in line. He never gave a shit about Rhaenrya, she was merely a placeholder in his mind until a son was produced, hopefully by his daughter. Therefore, his assumption was that Viserys would cast aside Rhaenyra and name any future firstborn son as his new heir... I guess Otto never heard the saying about the 'assume' problem. He not only played himself but created what's to come...dipshit.

In the very 1st episode when Daemon & Viserys are in the throne room and Viserys is asking Daemon “Did you say it?”. They spar back & forth with some words but then Daemon spits out “Ten years you’ve been king and not once have you asked me to be your hand. You’ve sent me to the Vale, the City watch anywhere else but by your side, so I could protect you.” When Viserys asks him protect him from what? Daemon says “Yourself. Your weak Viserys and that council of leeches knows it”.  At that point Viserys tries to sing the virtues of Otto but Daemon says “he’s a cunt”….Otto wanted Daemon as far away from KL and Viserys because Daemon would have been in Viserys ear all the time telling him good decision from bad decision….I guarantee that the entire Alicent /Viserys “calculated distraction” would more than likely not occurred had Daemon had a closer proximity to Viserys….Otto never feared Viserys but he truly feared Daemon and what he could be capable of if he were king.  

[Meredith Quill]

1 hour ago, Archangel said:

In the very 1st episode when Daemon & Viserys are in the throne room and Viserys is asking Daemon “Did you say it?”. They spar back & forth with some words but then Daemon spits out “Ten years you’ve been king and not once have you asked me to be your hand. You’ve sent me to the Vale, the City watch anywhere else but by your side, so I could protect you.” When Viserys asks him protect him from what? Daemon says “Yourself. Your weak Viserys and that council of leeches knows it”.  At that point Viserys tries to sing the virtues of Otto but Daemon says “he’s a cunt”….Otto wanted Daemon as far away from KL and Viserys because Daemon would have been in Viserys ear all the time telling him good decision from bad decision….I guarantee that the entire Alicent /Viserys “calculated distraction” would more than likely not occurred had Daemon had a closer proximity to Viserys….Otto never feared Viserys but he truly feared Daemon and what he could be capable of if he were king.  

One hundred percent. Otto wanted to be free to manipulate 'guide' Viserys in whatever direction best suited him (him, not the realm) without any hinderance or interference from Daemon. He cast Daemon as XYZ as an excuse to keep him out of his way for that reason, and Daemon being Daemon, (reckless, emotionally turbulent, and ruthless) played perfectly into Otto's hands. When Viserys says to Otto "When did you stop serving your king and instead yourself?" (paraphrasing) - I believe it was far earlier than Viserys ever realised; from the moment he decided to keep Daemon and Viserys as far apart as he could possibly manage. Even the encounter on Dragonstone, where Otto volunteered to go (after telling - not advising - his king he must not go) was a machination to keep them from reconciling. Aka the very thing Daemon, in his own messed up way, wanted and was causing a scene for... he wanted the attention of his older brother, not the very man who he knew wanted to keep them apart. Otto sucks.

[proserpina65]

35 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

One hundred percent. Otto wanted to be free to manipulate 'guide' Viserys in whatever direction best suited him (him, not the realm) without any hinderance or interference from Daemon. He cast Daemon as XYZ as an excuse to keep him out of his way for that reason, and Daemon being Daemon, (reckless, emotionally turbulent, and ruthless) played perfectly into Otto's hands. When Viserys says to Otto "When did you stop serving your king and instead yourself?" (paraphrasing) - I believe it was far earlier than Viserys ever realised; from the moment he decided to keep Daemon and Viserys as far apart as he could possibly manage. Even the encounter on Dragonstone, where Otto volunteered to go (after telling - not advising - his king he must not go) was a machination to keep them from reconciling. Aka the very thing Daemon, in his own messed up way, wanted and was causing a scene for... he wanted the attention of his older brother, not the very man who he knew wanted to keep them apart. Otto sucks.

All true, and yet Daemon would've been a terrible Hand.  Lyonel Strong was really the only good option.  He was the only one who did his best to act in the interest of the realm and not his own family/himself.

Edited to note: "Otto sucks" is always the correct answer.  Even when the question has nothing to do with HOTD.

Edited February 28, 2023 by proserpina65

[Meredith Quill]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

All true, and yet Daemon would've been a terrible Hand.  Lyonel Strong was really the only good option.  He was the only one who did his best to act in the interest of the realm and not his own family/himself.

Edited to note: "Otto sucks" is always the correct answer.  Even when the question has nothing to do with HOTD.

I agree Daemon would not have made a good Hand heh. However, Viserys would have been well-advised to allow Daemon to try it on briefly, to prove that fact to Daemon; how bad he would've been at it. Failing that, at minimum kept him close as a Small Councillor/trusted voice who would've given honest opinions (not necessarily good ones but honest ones) and have his back if nothing else - instead of allowing Otto to create a chasm between them.

Which, tbf, did appear to be the case for a while, however, here's a big old BUT: Otto was too comfortable with criticising Daemon's decisions and actions (rightly or wrongly) openly and also publicly to the council in his absence; as the king's brother (and for many years, the heir) such critiques would've been better voiced privately between the two (king + hand) or three of them. But ill-will does as ill-will is wont to do, ...use technicalities to serve its owner in whatever manner best suits the owner rather than the situation.

[Roseanna]

On 9/27/2022 at 11:31 PM, Ottis said:

Good description. I actually thought Joffrey had a good *idea,* he executed it poorly. On its face, it actually is a sweet arrangement. Joffrey gets to keep his relationship with his boyfriend who becomes king (or queen consort, not sure the rules there), and the queen gets to have her secret affairs with Criston - AND all four parties are perfectly fine with that, and I assume, with also each carrying out their publicly expected duties. However, for reasons I don't understand, Joffrey presented that arrangement as a threat to Criston instead of as an equal party to a wanted arrangement. Criston was already dealing with his personal demons around honor, and so his response to a threat was to attack. Or maybe I missed the whole point of it all. As I have noted, I don't care much about any of this. Given helpful responses in this thread that this is apparently all HoD is about, this may be my last episode.

 

On 9/28/2022 at 2:38 AM, king of bullshit said:

How? What would have given Joffrey insight into Criston's state of mind? 

I don't understand why the idea that Joffrey assumed a parallel state of mind in Criston, given his position and the amount of knowledge he was privy to(that the princess had her own paramour) isn't the primary speculation on Joffrey's reasoning.

All given reasons to support the idea that he provoked Criston sound to me like things being read onto the scene rather than anything objectively depicted. How, for example is

an objective reading of the scene? Why was he being condescending/lording himself over him there as opposed to neutrally stating something or entrusting his secret to someone that he felt was a kindred spirit who he wanted to put at ease by informing them that they had a brother in arms?

It's true that Joffrey didn't know Criston's state of mind, so he couldn't predict the danger. But if he had any sense, he should have understood that it was stupid idea to say to a quy he didn't know at all "hey, I know your secret".   

Joffrey had just said to Laenor that because Rhaena knew about their arrangement, it would be a good idea to show to Criston that they knew about his relationship with Rhaena - that would make them equal, meaning presumably that both could destroy the other. 

But the basic fact with secrets is: the fewer know it, the better. And never ever say anything aloud!   

Besides, Rhaenyra's affair wasn't the same as Laenor's, as the former was connected with the paternity of her children and therefore more dangerous.

[Roseanna]

On 9/22/2022 at 10:05 PM, Josh371982 said:

Well Alicent went behind her back and seduced her father, lying to her until the truth was revealed so she can take a seat. 

One can't call seduction if a woman has a friendly conversation with a man. There never was anything sexual, not a word nor even a look. I doubt if Alicent even understood her father's plan until it was too late. If she did, I doubt she could have refused it as a person without her family's support was nothing in that kind of society. And what, how and when would she have told to Rharenyra?

IRL it was suspicious for an woman even to be alone with a man in that age, but there seems to be quite liberal manners in this alternative world (Rhaenyra rode alone with Criston). But wasn't it more likely that if Viserys became interested in Alicent, he would take her as his mistress as Laena's father could offer him much more than Otto?

After rewatching, Otto is IMO judged too harsly. He deliberately created circumstances that made her daughter Queen, but later a lord of Hightower had to remind him that as a firstborn son Aegon would generally be considered as a better heir than Rhaenyra - as indeed was shown during the hunting trip. 

Before all, Rheanys told Rhaena that the realm would never accept a woman as Queen. If that is true, then it means that Otto was right to warn Alicent: if there were rebellions in any case after Viserys' death, then Rhaenyra would regard Aegon as a threat. (And there are examples irl.)

Whether Otto believed in his words or not, he did what he thought intelligent and necessary in the circumstances. But Viserys didn't and therefore I blame him most. 

If Viserys wanted to keep Rhaenyra as an heir, he shouldn't have married and begotten sons. And if he wanted her to succeed as a ruler, he should have raised her to become such.

On the other hand, Viserys was pressured to marry and Laena was the best option, but besides that he would have to wait for her 2-3 years, her father would have never accepted anything less than her grandsons' as heirs before Rhaenyra. It would have the best solution for the realm, but in his weakness and selfishness and lack of foresight Viserys refused it.