Jump to content
Forums forums
PRIMETIMER
Primetimer

Sarah's Sober Second Thought Series: Congratulations, Class Of 1999

Recommended Posts


The Prom episode is one of my favorite "super hero" moments of "we don't know exactly what is going on but we do know we all would kinda be very dead if you weren't around...so thanks" moments.

Share this post


Link to post

The reason for the almost no parents at graduation is that the students knew what was going down, so would have tried to keep their families away, like Buffy did with Joyce.

Share this post


Link to post

Every time I watch The Prom, I tear up as soon as Wild Horses starts. Perfect music choice and a great way to end the Buffy/Angel relationship (would that they had actually let it die there instead of constantly teasing the possibility of its return).

Speaking of relationships, watching earlier seasons with Willow and Oz always brings up some feelings of dissonance re: how they chose to present Willow's sexuality after Tara (constantly iterating that she sees herself as gay, with no mention of bisexuality). I still don't get that choice.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Liked this:

 

 

Xander's relationship to Angel is also frustratingly expedient, and when he's not being a needlessly territorial dick to Buffy about Angel's potential for destructive behavior, he's given lines like "the suspense is killing Angel." Like, what? Xander's just fine with something killing Angel…eeeeexcept when he's not.

 

I suppose it really would have killed Xander to at least thank Angel for saving him from getting strangled by Faith several episodes back.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

 

I suppose it really would have killed Xander to at least thank Angel for saving him from getting strangled by Faith several episodes back.

I guess he also should have thanked Angel for knocking him unconscious and leaving him on the streets of Sunnydale where vampires and other demons have been known to roam. Maybe if Angel had apologized for once again placing Xander in mortal jeopardy, Xander would have acted more positively towards him.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

I'm pretty sure he does apologize for that, but there's no way Xander would act more positively towards Angel for doing what he needed to to get critical information from Faith, not when the alternative is to be a self-righteous hypocrite. 

 

Not that I'm Angel's lawyer here, but Angel also "once again" showed skills and initiative well above what mortal boy Xander could accomplish. This is Xander's primary and continuing issue with the guy IMO and it's not something Angel can really apologize for. 

 

 

The reason for the almost no parents at graduation is that the students knew what was going down, so would have tried to keep their families away, like Buffy did with Joyce.

 

But Joyce still has difficulty accepting it when Buffy tells her to do this or that for her own safety, and Buffy is the Slayer. She has the vocabulary for what's going on and the authority to influence her parent. I seriously doubt the other kids could convince their parents to skip high-school graduation because a demon is planning to ascend. 

 

The real issue is probably the production not wanting to pay three hundred extras to run and scream, but it's not like they splashed out on the green-screen effect, lord knows.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Speaking of relationships, watching earlier seasons with Willow and Oz always brings up some feelings of dissonance re: how they chose to present Willow's sexuality after Tara (constantly iterating that she sees herself as gay, with no mention of bisexuality). I still don't get that choice.

The ability to have sex with the opposite sex, even have long term relationships with them, does not necessarily equate to bisexuality. I have 100% gay male friends today who were married with several children, but came out late in life and now would never again be with a woman. Ultimately, those relationships weren't completely fulfilling their needs. Doesn't invalidate them, but doesn't mean the person is bisexual either.

Also, consider the times-it's hard to believe now, but Willow coming out was completely ground breaking at the time. (Joss Whedon had to threaten to walk to keep Tara and Willow's quick peck of a kiss in "The Body"-that's how much has changed in two decades). In the climate of the 90s, to make her bisexual rather than fully lesbian would have been seen as a copout-that the show didn't have the guts to have an actual lesbian character. And the message needed to be that this was who Willow was, and people would have to learn to accept it. If she had been bisexual, there would have been a contingent of the fandom always waiting/rooting for her to "change back" and it wouldn't have been as important as it was.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

 

I'm pretty sure he does apologize for that, but there's no way Xander would act more positively towards Angel for doing what he needed to to get critical information from Faith, not when the alternative is to be a self-righteous hypocrite.

 

What critical information? The episode is a complete and utter joke based on a "Gotcha!" plot twist that makes no sense whatsoever in retrospect. Angel, Buffy and Giles more than deserved to be told "F@ck you!" by Xander, Willow, Cordelia and Oz. The only reason they weren't in on the (very stupid) plan in the first place was to fool the viewers, not Faith. And Angel and Buffy were also stupid enough to let Faith slip away in the end, by the way, giving her a chance to go kill some more people.

 

As for Xander not thanking Angel, if we list all the examples of characters in this show not thanking one another for saving each other's lives we would be here all day.

Share this post


Link to post

The ability to have sex with the opposite sex, even have long term relationships with them, does not necessarily equate to bisexuality. I have 100% gay male friends today who were married with several children, but came out late in life and now would never again be with a woman. Ultimately, those relationships weren't completely fulfilling their needs. Doesn't invalidate them, but doesn't mean the person is bisexual either.

Also, consider the times-it's hard to believe now, but Willow coming out was completely ground breaking at the time. (Joss Whedon had to threaten to walk to keep Tara and Willow's quick peck of a kiss in "The Body"-that's how much has changed in two decades). In the climate of the 90s, to make her bisexual rather than fully lesbian would have been seen as a copout-that the show didn't have the guts to have an actual lesbian character. And the message needed to be that this was who Willow was, and people would have to learn to accept it. If she had been bisexual, there would have been a contingent of the fandom always waiting/rooting for her to "change back" and it wouldn't have been as important as it was.

 

I do understand, of course, that plenty of gay people have straight relationships early on before realizing they are unfulfilled-I just didn't see any indication in the story that this was Willow's situation. She was written as being quite happy with Oz, and attracted to him sexually. So ignoring that part of her history after Season 4 didn't make a lot of sense to me.

 

Your point about cultural context of the times is an important one. In that time, it may have been more important to have an unequivocally gay lead character. But looking at it through a more updated lens, with bisexuality erasure a real problem in current media representations, it is a bit disappointing to look back and see a missed opportunity to demonstrate a more complex depiction of human sexuality.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
But looking at it through a more updated lens, with bisexuality erasure a real problem in current media representations, it is a bit disappointing to look back and see a missed opportunity to demonstrate a more complex depiction of human sexuality.

Especially since there is a surprising stigma against bisexual people from either end of the spectrum. I get that if Willow had been presented as bisexual, there would have been fans waiting for her to "revert," but on the other hand there would have been value in having a confirmed bisexual given that there are people who think they are waffling or in transition or too scared to be gay or whatever.

The speech at the prom is probably my favorite moment from the entire series, followed by Buffy's monologue at the end of "The Gift" (I kind of wish they had ended the show then, for a number of reasons). Gah, I'm tearing up just thinking about those two scenes.

Share this post


Link to post

There's a certain irony in the Wild Horses selection (IMO).

"Wild horses couldn't drag me away..." Gotta go! See ya!

 

Love the Class Protector award.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

Two things I can't watch without tearing up:  "The Prom" and Buffy's final conversation with Faith inside the dream.  At that moment, I loved Faith, and I felt such a profound swelling of pity for how she turned out that it just came out my damn eyeballs when we had the old Faith back, even if it was just in a dream/vision.  It reminded me a lot of Angel coming to his senses in "Becoming, Pt. 2."

 

The thing that's always bothered me about "Enemies" was how the whole thing revolved around the Mayor entrusting his plan to a demon who owed a debt to Giles.  Just one scene showing the demon approaching Mayor Wilkins to offer its services would have completely killed the sneaking suspicion I had that the writers intended us to accept that the Mayor summoned that demon at random, and its connection to Giles was just a happy accident.  Yes, it's hard to believe the writers would do that, but it's also hard to believe that they'd write an episode about cursed beer or magic addiction, and yet here we are.

Share this post


Link to post

Willow being a Lesbian insead of bi also implies meant that she'd "go straight" just until she found the right guy. And except for being a werewolf Oz was pretty much the perfect guy! Especially with great moments like these, from "Choices" where Willow is held prisoner by the Mayor and the gang debates exchanging the ritual book for her. Wesley is willing to sacrifice Willow for the greater good, Buffy is sooooo not. While they're arguing Oz listens and  just quietly walks over to the cauldron holding the stuff needed to destroy the book....

 

tumblr_m48hebsIs31qhbarso2_400.giftumblr_m48hebsIs31qhbarso1_400.gif

Edited by VCRTracking
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

I've never posted before, and I love reading everyone's comments on my favorite show ever! I happily watched Graduation Day 1 & 2 yesterday. I am really amazed at how much David Boreanaz has grown as an actor since his days on this show. His fever dreams' acting especially left something to be desired in these two. The only time I really believed him was in the fight scenes. He totally sells it (at least IMO), with the exception of the obvious stunt double!

That said, I still love these two episodes. Sometimes high school felt like a big demon battle!

Share this post


Link to post
On ‎20‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 3:00 PM, PreviouslyTV said:

The whole of Buffy's third season is greater than the sum of its parts -- and still the greatest of the series.

Read the story

I never found the dismissal of Wes 'bratty', in fact it was a vital moment of 'graduation' for Buffy, moving beyond the Council's control just as she moves beyond high school. Plus you have Wes and Giles as chaperones, who need more than that? What I did dislike is that Wes had been growing closer to the Scoobs over the last few eps and that was now ruined. 

On ‎20‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 4:06 PM, Chaos Theory said:

The Prom episode is one of my favorite "super hero" moments of "we don't know exactly what is going on but we do know we all would kinda be very dead if you weren't around...so thanks" moments.

Yeah, Buffy never asks for recognition but that's what makes it so terrific, it's spontaneous and Jonathan's speech is just perfect. 

On ‎20‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 4:22 PM, LoneHaranguer said:

The reason for the almost no parents at graduation is that the students knew what was going down, so would have tried to keep their families away, like Buffy did with Joyce.

Yeah, I thought that too, they knew they were giving the Prize and didn't want to have to explain it to anyone. 

On ‎20‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 4:39 PM, Kay said:

Oh man "Wild Horses" and HEEEEEERE come the waterworks...

You know I'd never heard that song before this ep, not even the Rolling Stones version but it is perfect. 

Share this post


Link to post

On ‎20‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 4:58 PM, stagmania said:

Every time I watch The Prom, I tear up as soon as Wild Horses starts. Perfect music choice and a great way to end the Buffy/Angel relationship (would that they had actually let it die there instead of constantly teasing the possibility of its return).

Speaking of relationships, watching earlier seasons with Willow and Oz always brings up some feelings of dissonance re: how they chose to present Willow's sexuality after Tara (constantly iterating that she sees herself as gay, with no mention of bisexuality). I still don't get that choice.

Really I think it was a question of showing Willow as gay, that Tara wasn't some passing phase for her, hence her vehement identifying herself as gay rather than bi etc, that's why we had Kennedy in s7 rather than the more obvious solution of Xander and Willow together.  

On ‎20‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 5:19 PM, Spartan Girl said:

Liked this:

 

 

I suppose it really would have killed Xander to at least thank Angel for saving him from getting strangled by Faith several episodes back.

Good point, I never considered that. But he does seem more agreeable to Angel up to the point he smacks him in Enemies. 

On ‎20‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 5:24 PM, Loandbehold said:

I guess he also should have thanked Angel for knocking him unconscious and leaving him on the streets of Sunnydale where vampires and other demons have been known to roam. Maybe if Angel had apologized for once again placing Xander in mortal jeopardy, Xander would have acted more positively towards him.

It's a GOOD bruise!

Share this post


Link to post
On ‎20‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 5:41 PM, Sarah D. Bunting said:

I'm pretty sure he does apologize for that, but there's no way Xander would act more positively towards Angel for doing what he needed to to get critical information from Faith, not when the alternative is to be a self-righteous hypocrite. 

 

Not that I'm Angel's lawyer here, but Angel also "once again" showed skills and initiative well above what mortal boy Xander could accomplish. This is Xander's primary and continuing issue with the guy IMO and it's not something Angel can really apologize for. 

 

 

But Joyce still has difficulty accepting it when Buffy tells her to do this or that for her own safety, and Buffy is the Slayer. She has the vocabulary for what's going on and the authority to influence her parent. I seriously doubt the other kids could convince their parents to skip high-school graduation because a demon is planning to ascend. 

 

The real issue is probably the production not wanting to pay three hundred extras to run and scream, but it's not like they splashed out on the green-screen effect, lord knows.

No, he NEVER apologises to my recollection, I think Xander and Angel basically cancel one another out in terms of rights and wrongs against one another, it would have been interesting to have seen such a scene in the comics or remake?

On ‎20‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 6:23 PM, ferretrick said:

The ability to have sex with the opposite sex, even have long term relationships with them, does not necessarily equate to bisexuality. I have 100% gay male friends today who were married with several children, but came out late in life and now would never again be with a woman. Ultimately, those relationships weren't completely fulfilling their needs. Doesn't invalidate them, but doesn't mean the person is bisexual either.

Also, consider the times-it's hard to believe now, but Willow coming out was completely ground breaking at the time. (Joss Whedon had to threaten to walk to keep Tara and Willow's quick peck of a kiss in "The Body"-that's how much has changed in two decades). In the climate of the 90s, to make her bisexual rather than fully lesbian would have been seen as a copout-that the show didn't have the guts to have an actual lesbian character. And the message needed to be that this was who Willow was, and people would have to learn to accept it. If she had been bisexual, there would have been a contingent of the fandom always waiting/rooting for her to "change back" and it wouldn't have been as important as it was.

Yes, that's exactly what I thought but then personally I'm still hoping for Xillow. 

On ‎20‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 6:37 PM, Jack Shaftoe said:

 

What critical information? The episode is a complete and utter joke based on a "Gotcha!" plot twist that makes no sense whatsoever in retrospect. Angel, Buffy and Giles more than deserved to be told "F@ck you!" by Xander, Willow, Cordelia and Oz. The only reason they weren't in on the (very stupid) plan in the first place was to fool the viewers, not Faith. And Angel and Buffy were also stupid enough to let Faith slip away in the end, by the way, giving her a chance to go kill some more people.

 

As for Xander not thanking Angel, if we list all the examples of characters in this show not thanking one another for saving each other's lives we would be here all day.

No, it was need to know, the more people who knew about Faith's treachery the harder it would have been to keep the pretence up, Angel hitting Xander was a judgement call but I don't blame Xander for being metaphorically (and literally) sore. 

Share this post


Link to post
On ‎20‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 6:42 PM, stagmania said:

 

I do understand, of course, that plenty of gay people have straight relationships early on before realizing they are unfulfilled-I just didn't see any indication in the story that this was Willow's situation. She was written as being quite happy with Oz, and attracted to him sexually. So ignoring that part of her history after Season 4 didn't make a lot of sense to me.

 

Your point about cultural context of the times is an important one. In that time, it may have been more important to have an unequivocally gay lead character. But looking at it through a more updated lens, with bisexuality erasure a real problem in current media representations, it is a bit disappointing to look back and see a missed opportunity to demonstrate a more complex depiction of human sexuality.

On a more prosaic level the were looking to have a gay character on the show and were toying with Xander (think of the relationship between him and Larry) but with Seth leaving it provided the opportunity, not to mention Willow's huge popularity amongst the gay fans (and slashficcers). There are various hints in S1-3 if you look for them, Willow and CC ending up 'In the Closet' together in School Hard and suggesting they give up on men altogether in Phases. Will does seem to stress her 'gay now' credentials but this is partly to reassure Tara with her 'lesbo street cred' and Anya that she s doesn't still have the hots for Xander. Note she says to Kennedy she fell in love with 'a woman' rather than just 'women' although she also has the hots for April, Dawn etc Personally I always thought Will and Xander made love in Kingman's bluff at the end of S6 that's why she can tell him 'I'm over you sweetie' in s7.  

Share this post


Link to post
On ‎21‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 12:00 AM, beadgirl said:

Especially since there is a surprising stigma against bisexual people from either end of the spectrum. I get that if Willow had been presented as bisexual, there would have been fans waiting for her to "revert," but on the other hand there would have been value in having a confirmed bisexual given that there are people who think they are waffling or in transition or too scared to be gay or whatever.

The speech at the prom is probably my favorite moment from the entire series, followed by Buffy's monologue at the end of "The Gift" (I kind of wish they had ended the show then, for a number of reasons). Gah, I'm tearing up just thinking about those two scenes.

No, no, Buffy shouldn't die even if it is a hero's death, she should walk off into the sunset holding Dawn's hand with the rest of her friends. You're right about the stigma, a lot of gay people think bisexual men are just homosexuals in denial (you even get that on Glee/Will and Grace) and bisexual women just 'tourists' although that gets a lot more acceptance than men do, women more sexually ambivalent and straight guys considering it a turn-on. I guess society likes to put people in nice little labelled boxes. It will be interesting in the reboot to contrast how attitudes have changed.   

On ‎21‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 12:38 AM, Dianthus said:

There's a certain irony in the Wild Horses selection (IMO).

"Wild horses couldn't drag me away..." Gotta go! See ya!

 

Love the Class Protector award.

I never thought about it like that? What should they have played? 'Hit the road Jack!'? Or 'I'm holding onto nothing but the wheel'?

On ‎21‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 1:47 AM, Jezzerat said:

Two things I can't watch without tearing up:  "The Prom" and Buffy's final conversation with Faith inside the dream.  At that moment, I loved Faith, and I felt such a profound swelling of pity for how she turned out that it just came out my damn eyeballs when we had the old Faith back, even if it was just in a dream/vision.  It reminded me a lot of Angel coming to his senses in "Becoming, Pt. 2."

 

The thing that's always bothered me about "Enemies" was how the whole thing revolved around the Mayor entrusting his plan to a demon who owed a debt to Giles.  Just one scene showing the demon approaching Mayor Wilkins to offer its services would have completely killed the sneaking suspicion I had that the writers intended us to accept that the Mayor summoned that demon at random, and its connection to Giles was just a happy accident.  Yes, it's hard to believe the writers would do that, but it's also hard to believe that they'd write an episode about cursed beer or magic addiction, and yet here we are.

Cursed beer, yes, magic addiction worked for me as a metaphor. Do we ever get to know the exact nature of the plan, did the Mayor summon the demon who just happened to owe Giles the debt or was this something Giles cooked up and false flagged?

Share this post


Link to post
On ‎22‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 9:45 PM, DogMama said:

Sars as Angel's lawyer?

This is a show I would watch.

More than 'Vampire Cowboy'?

On ‎27‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 5:59 AM, VCRTracking said:

Willow being a Lesbian insead of bi also implies meant that she'd "go straight" just until she found the right guy. And except for being a werewolf Oz was pretty much the perfect guy! Especially with great moments like these, from "Choices" where Willow is held prisoner by the Mayor and the gang debates exchanging the ritual book for her. Wesley is willing to sacrifice Willow for the greater good, Buffy is sooooo not. While they're arguing Oz listens and  just quietly walks over to the cauldron holding the stuff needed to destroy the book....

 

tumblr_m48hebsIs31qhbarso2_400.giftumblr_m48hebsIs31qhbarso1_400.gif

Yeah that's a punch in the air Oz moment although he's not exactly the 'perfect guy' unless you're into taciturn bohemian type. And he's pretty short whilst Buffy/SMG likes them lanky. 

On ‎02‎/‎09‎/‎2014 at 6:10 PM, lovebug871 said:

I've never posted before, and I love reading everyone's comments on my favorite show ever! I happily watched Graduation Day 1 & 2 yesterday. I am really amazed at how much David Boreanaz has grown as an actor since his days on this show. His fever dreams' acting especially left something to be desired in these two. The only time I really believed him was in the fight scenes. He totally sells it (at least IMO), with the exception of the obvious stunt double!

That said, I still love these two episodes. Sometimes high school felt like a big demon battle!

I thought those scenes were okay although yes, he and Nic get much better as actors as the shows go on, the character we see in s5 of Angel is unrecognisable from that in s1. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Customize font-size