Bookwalkers Only: Dragons Are Coming

[Cristofle]

While I don't think it's...wise to hope for some sort of epic true love conclusion for Daemon and Rhaenyra, lol, that is not what this story is about, that whole conversation about Daemon struck me as disappointingly simplistic given that GRRM is absolutely adamant about Daemon's position as a kind of anti-hero. He describes him as "equal parts light and dark" - these writers seem to be missing the "light", including deliberately cutting scenes that show him obviously loving his daughters. 

[Oscirus]

Id say the exact opposite. Take away his wife's murder, what has he done that could be considered non-heroic on the show. Hell, even his marriage to Rhaenyra was done at her insistence. 

[magdalene]

2 hours ago, Cristofle said:

While I don't think it's...wise to hope for some sort of epic true love conclusion for Daemon and Rhaenyra, lol, that is not what this story is about, that whole conversation about Daemon struck me as disappointingly simplistic given that GRRM is absolutely adamant about Daemon's position as a kind of anti-hero. He describes him as "equal parts light and dark" - these writers seem to be missing the "light", including deliberately cutting scenes that show him obviously loving his daughters. 

One writer,  one director. The director who directed the brothel episode where she claimed that Daemon couldn't "perform" with Rhaenyra because Rhaenyra took the initiative sexually.  While Ryan Condall, the actual show runner and the head writer, said Daemon couldn't perform because he knew the seduction of his teenage niece was wrong. And this is all borne out 10 years later on the beach when Rhaenyra says "You abandoned me"  and Daemon answers " I spared you, you were a child".  And then Rhaenyra takes the initiative sexually and they have sex at the beach - and Daemon has no trouble at all "performing". 

So I wouldn't put too much stock into what that particular director says about Daemon's  assorted motivations. If Ryan Condall starts saying stuff like that, well, that would be worrisome.

As long as they keep in mind that Daemon is supposed to be a rogue who does villainous shit sometimes instead of a one note villain.....

As for the Daemon/Rhaenyra of it all they weren't portrayed like that in the book and I can't expect it to continue once they really get into the dance. I hope I am wrong for all the people who have their hearts set on them as a couple.

[Constantinople]

Taking your teenaged niece to a brothel and starting to dry hump her is a little beyond "rogue" in my opinion even if you later change your mind.

[Meredith Quill]

9 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Id say the exact opposite. Take away his wife's murder, what has he done that could be considered non-heroic on the show. Hell, even his marriage to Rhaenyra was done at her insistence. 

You have read the episode threads, many seem to think he is the worst. Lol. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

6 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Taking your teenaged niece to a brothel and starting to dry hump her is a little beyond "rogue" in my opinion even if you later change your mind.

Oh they have portrayed much non-heroic behaviour from Daemon; city watch street raid, attempted corruption of Rhaenyra, killing Lady Royce, to name the obvious ones.

I am fully aware that Daemon is no hero and is an utter douchebag at times but I still far prefer him over Otto, Larys, Aegon & Aemond (Krispy Kreme doesn't even count imo). Talk about a rogue's gallery right there with zero redeeming qualities, lmao.

If you're of the opinion that Aemond isn't supposed to have any charisma then the show got it spot on because he doesn't, and that is a major reason why he isn't Daemon's mini-me.

[Dac22]

18 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Id say the exact opposite. Take away his wife's murder, what has he done that could be considered non-heroic on the show. 

He did savagely beat an innocent messenger out of spite, killed his wife as mentioned, tried to sexually take advantage of his niece, and murdered an innocent servant so he could marry said niece later among a few other things. 

Those things seem to be pretty far from heroic from an objective perspective.

Meanwhile, the 'good qualities' have been left more ambiguous which is why even those involved with the show seemingly can't agree on it.

[Oscirus]

1 hour ago, Dac22 said:

He did savagely beat an innocent messenger out of spite, killed his wife as mentioned, tried to sexually take advantage of his niece, and murdered an innocent servant so he could marry said niece later among a few other things. 

Those things seem to be pretty far from heroic from an objective perspective.

Meanwhile, the 'good qualities' have been left more ambiguous which is why even those involved with the show seemingly can't agree on it.

Fair enough but since his marriage to Laena, hes pretty much been a church boy with even his despicable acts being justified for one reason or the other. 

Hell even in that scene with rhaenyra,  they had him stop short of doing anything with her  cuz it wasnt right.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Oscirus

[magdalene]

16 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Hell, they even had him stop short of doing anything with his wife cuz it wasnt right.

I don't know what you mean by that. Are you talking about his wife Leana?

Personally I feel Daemon hasn't changed at all since we first met him early in the show when unspoiled people were calling him a monster and "obviously" the main villain of the show. When people were scoffing at Ryan Condall saying "Daemon is not a monster". I think were a messenger now to bring him news he hated he would be totally capable of beating them almost to death.   The difference between then and now is - early show Daemon was frustrated and unhappy and current Daemon has been getting what he wants for the last six years, and before then was with a woman who was pretty much the ideal wife and a dragon rider to boot. I don't think it's going to be pretty if he doesn't get what he wants or if someone hurts his ego.

Shrugs. I always seem to gravitate towards the very flawed and conflicted characters who have physical courage and a certain swagger. Books Jaime and his POVs was one of my favorites for a reason.  With Daemon this is all intensified because he is played by an actor I have liked for a long time. So when someone hates on Daemon I get defensive for someone not appreciating Matty Smith enough. Laughs at self.

[Dac22]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

Fair enough but since his marriage to Laena, hes pretty much been a church boy with even his despicable acts being justified for one reason or the other. 

I don't think having a reason is the same as justification. 

I believe we both agreed Criston killing Beesbury was terrible, but Criston had a reason for it. Daemon killing the servant had a reason behind it, but it was a still terrible.

Though on the whole, I do agree Daemon has been tempered down a bit in the back half whether it's development or circumstances being more to his liking. 

37 minutes ago, magdalene said:

So when someone hates on Daemon I get defensive for someone not appreciating Matty Smith enough. 

While I'm not the biggest fan of how Daemon has been portrayed so far, there's no doubt Matt Smith is absolutely making the most of it. 

[Oscirus]

2 hours ago, magdalene said:

I don't know what you mean by that. Are you talking about his wife Leana?

Sorry fixed it I think, was referring to Rhaenyra.

1 hour ago, Dac22 said:

I don't think having a reason is the same as justification. 

I believe we both agreed Criston killing Beesbury was terrible, but Criston had a reason for it. Daemon killing the servant had a reason behind it, but it was a still terrible.

Though on the whole, I do agree Daemon has been tempered down a bit in the back half whether it's development or circumstances being more to his liking. 

Admittedly I was using hyperbole but yes what I was saying is that hes toned down alot from the books especially in the back half. Its not tyrion levels yet, but its getting there.

[ybrik]

Okay I have been listening and watching podcasts and YouTube videos about Fire and blood. Lately have been on Alysanne and her daughters kicks especially since Lord Strong’s comment about those daughters driving the old king mad. I watched one video about Saera and they had a theory that just blew my mind. It is such a crazy brilliant theory that I kind of wish the show had tried this even though it would have taken away one of the best things of this show (Alicent/Rhaenyra’s friendship). Also would have probably meant no or a lot less of Emily as Alicent.

Basically their theory is based on two things from Fire and Blood. When Saera escapes from the Sept in Oldtown, the king basically states that Saera would have had to get monies to escape by doing what she eventually did in Lys since how else could she have gotten monies? Then there is the fact that the old king starts confusing Alicent for his daughters and especially at the end believing that she was Saera returned. 

So the theory was basically what if the Hightowers were really working for a lot longer at trying to get to power? What if Otto slept with Saera and had a daughter, Alicent during her time in Oldtown. The Hightowers told the king they couldn’t find her but what if they hid her out while she had the child and gave her the monies to leave but kept the child. Then Otto comes the KL with the daughter who is around the same age as Saera was when the king last saw her. She begins to read to the king who swears Alicent is Saera. 

This would kind of plays into book Alicent who is rumored to have been with Daemon and was having an affair with Viserys while Aemma was still alive. 

I know this is pretty far fetched but could have really been interesting playing out in the lead up to the Dance.

[cambridgeguy]

13 hours ago, Dac22 said:

Though on the whole, I do agree Daemon has been tempered down a bit in the back half whether it's development or circumstances being more to his liking. 

The way Blood and Cheese plays out will determine how much they're softening Daemon.  If he explicitly tells them to go kill one of Aegon's kids then that's about as irredeemable as it gets (although I'm sure people will try to excuse it away).  If he gives a different order (kill Aegon, Otto, etc.) and the two improvise then they definitely want to keep him on the more sympathetic side.  Regardless of her role in it Rhaenyra already has the built in excuse of being a grieving mom with clouded judgement in the heat of the moment.

[Meredith Quill]

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

The way Blood and Cheese plays out will determine how much they're softening Daemon.  If he explicitly tells them to go kill one of Aegon's kids then that's about as irredeemable as it gets (although I'm sure people will try to excuse it away).  If he gives a different order (kill Aegon, Otto, etc.) and the two improvise then they definitely want to keep him on the more sympathetic side.  Regardless of her role in it Rhaenyra already has the built in excuse of being a grieving mom with clouded judgement in the heat of the moment.

No, committing the act of killing a child yourself is as irredeemable as it gets imo*. Something which Bronn admitted he would do for the right price, yet afaik copped no fandom ire for it, in fact he was a fan fav... go figure.

Ordering the murder of a child comes in a close second, for if there were no-one willing to commit such an act, the ordering of it would amount to nothing more than desiring it unless you did it yourself, which brings us back to point 1.

*Aemond

The either/or you have given amounts to the character can't win no matter what. Either he's the blackest of villains or the writers have whitewashed him. The problem I have with that is the use of both Watsonian and Doylist viewpoints in tandem to damn him, which puts the character in the can't win corner, with the two coming from wholly different perspectives.

We either go with what they give us and he's a total villain, he's an anti-hero or he's complex (bit of both), depending on what plays out on the screen, it's as simple as that. To state 'he's being whitewashed' is no different that saying 'he's being blackened' a la Lady Royce - imo it's a futile argument to participate in. The show is the show and the books are the books, for better or for worse.

[Affogato]

On 10/13/2022 at 7:36 PM, magdalene said:

I agree. Viserys had precarious health for a long time and Rhaenyra could have died a number of times in child birth.  Then what?  Daemon should have known about it too - not in the least to prevent him going into a fit about it at the least convenient time.  

Yes, everybody should know.

The canvas of the prophesy isn't mounted on a time frame. Also, if people know the prophesy will they act in such a way as to undermine the prophesy.

[Oscirus]

I noticed that the maester was on the bridge with otto, since it would fit with a scene these writers would love, Id say that rhaenyras about to snatch a certain naughty maesters chain

[Meredith Quill]

Please do not discuss events from episode 10 or post any spoilers from it in here - or anywhere on the HOTD forum - until after it has officially aired.

[ybrik]

Okay looking towards season 2 and beyond, which rumored romances do you think the show will include and which will the show not include? Alys/Aemond, Jace/Sarah, Daemon/Nettles, Sabitha/Aly, and Jeyne/Jessamyn. Not including Cregan/Aly since that actually happens since there is a marriage and children. 

I would like to think that the show wouldn’t want to continue with GOT’s lack of queer women/romance but both of the potential ones could be problematic that the show may just leave them out. With Jeyne, I am not sure how much time we are going to be spending with her at the Vale. So the show may not feel too invested with giving her a love interest or really expanding too much on her character. With Aly and Sabitha, I fear that it might just be the opposite. Aly is(should be) too big of a character in the future seasons and is supposed to be part of what would probably be the main future relationship with Cregan that they may not to have her in a relationship with a woman early on only to have her end up with a man for fear of a backlash. 

I think Alys/Aemond and Jace/Sarah are almost certainly going to happen. With Daemon and Rhaenyra probably being separated a lot during the war, the show will want a new hot couple to have sexy times which is what they will probably get with Alys and Aemond. With Jace and Sarah, there is too much parallels with the main story Rhaegar/Lyanna and Jon/Dany to pass up. Plus Jace does seem to be getting set up to be this shows Robb. 

Daemon and Nettles can see going either way. I think I would have a better idea depending on who is cast. If it is someone really young like under 20 then no and if it is someone over 20 then yes. I am saying this because of how this relationship is supposed to figure in to Daemon’s end when Rhae is supposed to want Nettles killed. While most seem to think they were lovers, I can’t remember who thought that Nettles could have been a bastard child of Daemon. 

[magdalene]

42 minutes ago, ybrik said:

Daemon and Nettles can see going either way. I think I would have a better idea depending on who is cast. If it is someone really young like under 20 then no and if it is someone over 20 then yes. I am saying this because of how this relationship is supposed to figure in to Daemon’s end when Rhae is supposed to want Nettles killed. While most seem to think they were lovers, I can’t remember who thought that Nettles could have been a bastard child of Daemon. 

There is a third option, she is neither his child or his lover.  From the book source it comes across as Nettles might be someone a man like Daemon might like and respect.  The only things we know for sure are Daemon saves her from being executed and she cries a lot when they say good-bye at the Gods Eye. Grins. I am sure if Sara Hess is writing the relationship Eeevil!Daemon will manipulate Nettles into liking him because reasons  of eeevilness. We can't have Daemon not eeevilling  around after all.

[Constantinople]

This is wild speculation but it's partly based on book events that haven't happened yet in the show, so I'm putting it here.

In the book, Jace flies to the Eyrie, White Harbor and Winterfell. At White Harbor, Jace and Lord Manderly agree that Jace's younger brother Joffrey will marry Lord Manderly's daughter after the war. At Winterfell, Jace and Cregan Stark agree that Jace's future first daughter will marry Cregan's son (I don't remember if the son had been born yet).

In Episode 10, Rhaenyra says Jace will fly to the Eyrie and Winterfell but no mention is made of White Harbor. Jace could still stop by White Harbor in the show, but I'm guessing he won't.

So what happens to Joffrey's betrothal? It could be dropped entirely.

Or Jace may betroth Joffrey to one of Cregan's female relatives, whom I'll call Sara. She could be a daughter, a sister, or a niece but she's Sara Stark, not Sara Snow (and nothing happens between her and Jace unless there's a wedding ceremony where Jace is Joffrey's proxy). There could still be a marriage pact between Cregan's son and Jace's future daughter, but that's contingent. What if Jace never has daughters? Sara and Joffrey are here and now.

At the time Jace and Cregan make this marriage pact, they may not know that Luke is dead. But they'll find out soon enough. So Cregan may now expect his sister/niece/daughter will be the future Mistress of Driftmark and Lady of the Tides on the assumption that Joffrey is next in line after Luke.

But then Corlys has Addam and Alyn of Hull legitimated as Addam and Alyn Velaryon, with Addam named as his heir and Alyn next in line. So now Joffrey's been passed over. At least, that's how Cregan might view it.

One catch is that in the book, Jace fully supports Corlys's desire to legitimate Addam and Alyn. But Jace may not know Cregan's thoughts on the matter. And if Cregan wants to blame someone, he find it easier to blame Corlys than the people to whom he's pledged his loyalty.

That would give Cregan a more personal reason for his animosity towards Corlys when they meet up in King's Landing. Granted, Joffrey's dead by then, but Cregan strikes me as the kind of person who holds a grudge. 

In some way it makes what Corlys did worse in Cregan's eyes. After Hugh and Ulf changed sides, Rhaenyra wanted to "sharply question" the other two dragonseeds: Addam and Nettles. Addam is or would be on dragon duty in the Dragonpit when he's warned by Corlys, so Addam flees and Rhaenyra imprisons Corlys. Then the Storming of the Dragonpit happens and Joffrey is killed trying to get there to release the dragons. So from Cregan might also blame Corlys for Joffrey's death.

That's a bit illogical because if Addam hadn't been warned by Corlys, Addam still wouldn't have been at the Dragonpit. He'd be in a cell instead. But perhaps Cregan doesn't realize no one else was a available for dragon sitting. And people aren't always perfectly logical. After all, Cregan didn't recognize Aegon II as king, yet he condemned people for committing treason against Aegon while simultaneously denying the validity of a pardon that Aegon granted.

I'm not saying this will happen, but it could happen. It explains the confused accounts of what happened in Winterfell and Cregan dislike of Corlys.

But they'll probably drop the Joffrey betrothal story.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

11 hours ago, Constantinople said:

At Winterfell, Jace and Cregan Stark agree that Jace's future first daughter will marry Cregan's son (I don't remember if the son had been born yet).

He had, Rickon, a year old at the time.

When in doubt, A Wiki of Ice and Fire is a great, well-maintained resource.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Noneofyourbusiness

[magdalene]

Bumping up this thread for the second season...

With Tom giving a stunning performance and I never being able to resist a superb performance - those bastards making the show know what they are doing. 

Sure, go ahead and try make me feel conflicted about Rhaenyra's killer.

[Oscirus]

Why is this show going out of its way to let the characters off the hook for stuff they did in the book

First, they make Aemond the victim instead of the aggressor when he loses his eye.

Then they have Daemond and Rhaenyra not kill Laenor.

Then, Aemond killing Luke was an accident. 

Now Jaehyrus is getting killed more because the assassins she hired got a bit ambitious as opposed to any specific orders.

To top it all off, Helena is not forced to make Sophie's choice (that one's okay; they conveyed the book's message of Helena choosing a kid to kill, and ultimately, the actual events would likely change nothing other than needlessly upsetting non-book readers).

Also, why are they making Alicent so much more accessible than in the book? Between providing foot porn and now banging Criston, she's coming off a helluva lot worse than in the book, and that's saying something.

Edited June 19 by Oscirus

[Cristofle]

Also, Rhaenyra didn't order Daemon to kill Vaemond, he did it on his own (granted, Vaemond must have known he was essentially committing suicide, but still). I get some of them, but it's happening a LOT, that characters are not making some of their most wretched book decisions and instead are basically stumbling into these situations. 

I mostly want to understand how the fuck (show)Cole still has a JOB, lol. First he kills a nobleman in the middle of a wedding, just hauls off and beats him to death. Then he falls down on the job when he had the night's watch the same night the kids get into a brawl and Aemond loses an eye. And now it seems likely the guards were super sparse the night the king's heir is murdered is because he sent them away so he could get some action. 

[Oscirus]

It was fun seeing Aemond's baby mama.

Looks like next week, fans are about to lose a Yooge fan favorite as the battle of Rook's rest looks to be happening, according to previews. R.I.P queen that never was.

[Affogato]

9 hours ago, Oscirus said:

It was fun seeing Aemond's baby mama.

Looks like next week, fans are about to lose a Yooge fan favorite as the battle of Rook's rest looks to be happening, according to previews. R.I.P queen that never was.

I actually dread watching this show, since it ends badly for everyone. It is a masochistic pleasure. 

[baldryanr]

It ends pretty well for Cregan.

I wonder how much they'll alter Aegon's battle wounds. After spending the past few episodes building him up are they really just going to let him spend the rest of the season and beyond as a bed-ridden cripple who spends his time either sleeping or drugged out on milk of the poppy? 

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, baldryanr said:

It ends pretty well for Cregan.

I wonder how much they'll alter Aegon's battle wounds. After spending the past few episodes building him up are they really just going to let him spend the rest of the season and beyond as a bed-ridden cripple who spends his time either sleeping or drugged out on milk of the poppy? 

At some point the romanticists are going to have to let go of some of their dreams. 

[Oscirus]

OK, that supposed kick-ass line from Baela is gonna make her look hella stupid in the future, given where she ends up. 

[magdalene]

I am having such a hard time seeing the Alys Rivers we just spent time with becoming Aemond's mistress after he slaughters Sir Simon and all. 

[Oscirus]

8 hours ago, magdalene said:

I am having such a hard time seeing the Alys Rivers we just spent time with becoming Aemond's mistress after he slaughters Sir Simon and all. 

 

I get the feeling that Alys's agency will be removed, and it will either be a hostage situation or Stockholm syndrome of some sort. 

[magdalene]

So it looks like Nettles is out and her story is being given to Daemon's daughter Rhaena.

[Affogato]

25 minutes ago, magdalene said:

So it looks like Nettles is out and her story is being given to Daemon's daughter Rhaena.

That is too bad. I liked Nettles. 

[baldryanr]

It's going to make Rhaenyra look even more deranged if she orders Daemon to kill Rhaena for supposed treachery, so who knows how they'll spin that part.

[magdalene]

I think Rhaena will choose claiming Sheepstealer over going with Rhaenyra's little ones and then of course the bad things will happen to the little boys and Rhaenyra will blame Rhaena for some of it.  I think when Rhaenyra slapped the dodderer on her council that was our introduction to the not so nice Rhaenyra. Of course it's still a long way to the paranoid tyrant of the book source.  In the book Daemon protected Nettles from Rhaenyras wrath.  Giving  Nettles story line to Rhaena gives us great conflict between Daemon and Rhaenyra. While Daemon has never been father of the year material I bet he won't be standing for Rhaenyra killing Rhaena.

[magdalene]

A dear friend, completely unspoiled by the book, has now a big crush on Hugh the Hammer. She thinks he would make a fine husband for Rhaenyra.  Oh dear, there are going to be some broken hearts.  Evil little cackle.

He in particular being the son of that particular mother claiming that particular dragon is a sweet, sweet thing.

Edited July 30 by magdalene

[Oscirus]

It looks like next season will start with the battle of the Gullet, which means goodbye, Jace. You were a great character.

[baldryanr]

So Alicent's going to be the one to poison Aegon at the end, isn't she? 

[proserpina65]

So is Sunfyre actually dead or does Aegon just think so?  I really was looking forward to seeing Sunfyre eat Rhaenyra.

[magdalene]

28 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

So is Sunfyre actually dead or does Aegon just think so?  I really was looking forward to seeing Sunfyre eat Rhaenyra.

I have a hard time believing they would change something that big from the book. But I don't trust their judgment about their adaptation. They have made some dubious choices already.  The contrived Alicent/Rhanyra  convos to keep Alicent front and center.  No Nettles and her story going to Rhaena. I don't trust these writers.

[Oscirus]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

So is Sunfyre actually dead or does Aegon just think so?  I really was looking forward to seeing Sunfyre eat Rhaenyra.

 

I don't even think that Criston's that stupid to have his men guarding a dragon corpse. Sunfyre was on the verge of death so Im assuming they're pretty much thinking and saying Sunfyre died.

[Affogato]

Anyone want to talk about Otto? Where is he? Etc?

[proserpina65]

57 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Anyone want to talk about Otto? Where is he? Etc?

Is he maybe being held prisoner by the Beesburys?  Someone posited that he was imprisoned at the Red Keep by Larys to keep him out of the way, which is interesting, although unless he's in one of the black cells, I'd think a guard would've recognized him.

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

Is he maybe being held prisoner by the Beesburys?  Someone posited that he was imprisoned at the Red Keep by Larys to keep him out of the way, which is interesting, although unless he's in one of the black cells, I'd think a guard would've recognized him.

I wonder if they have not made this change so Alicient can look for him. Gives her a purpose in the next season. 

[baldryanr]

We know GRRM is pissed about Maelor being dropped and the subsequent changes to the story.  Plus it sounds like he's strongly opposed to other changes.

I wonder if another one is replacing Nettles with Rhaena.  I just can't see her ordering Daemon to execute his daughter (not to mention her step daughter) no matter how crappy of a father the guy has been. 

The show has also painted Rhaenyra and Alicent far more sympathetically than the books so far, so maybe that's another part of it.  That being said, Aemond ending season 1 as an accidental murderer didn't stop him from going full villain.