Bookwalkers Only: Dragons Are Coming

[Meredith Quill]

A place to discuss specific plot points you're looking forward to (or not!) seeing play out on screen.

[magdalene]

I just saw this thread.  Good to have it for venting purposes.

When I saw Alicent's first spawn, AegonII  in the 3rd episode trailer it really hit home that this evil fucker feeds Rhaeneria to his dragon in front of her son with Daemon. The dragon doesn't even want to go for her at first, Aegon bloods her and then the dragon kills her.

When I look at the brilliant girl we are watching right now and think of her ending it really leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

[Constantinople]

17 minutes ago, magdalene said:

When I saw Alicent's first spawn, AegonII  in the 3rd episode trailer

Wasn't he adorable with his Targaryen blond hair?

I can't wait until Rhaenyra has children. I expect they'll bear a strong resemblance to their father.

[magdalene]

Not that AegonII gets to enjoy the throne for long - killed by his own Small Council, smiles. And succeeded by Daemon's son AegonIII. Not that the poor thing was a happy king. But at least his line goes on to Jon Snow being the last I guess.

I wonder whether the egg Rhaeneria got back from Daemon was Sunfyre - that would be ironic.

I actually don't know for sure who fathered the children from her first marriage. Obviously not her first husband and obviously somebody dark-haired. They die as I remember.

[Meredith Quill]

47 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Wasn't he adorable with his Targaryen blond hair?

I can't wait until Rhaenyra has children. I expect they'll bear a strong resemblance to their father.

Just another platinum blonde dork on a dragon methinks. 🤣

I find it adorable how Rhaenyra and Daemon's line endures whilst Alicent's bloodline ...does not. It's the only joy I can find in all this misery.

#hewholaughslast 😉

[magdalene]

45 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

It's the only joy I can find in all this misery.

I can't muster joy only Schadenfreude.  Alicent should not have outlived Rhaenyra but at least all she loved are dead and gone.

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, magdalene said:

I actually don't know for sure who fathered the children from her first marriage. Obviously not her first husband and obviously somebody dark-haired. They die as I remember.

Presumably someone to whom Rhaenyra had a strong attraction

1 hour ago, SilverStormm said:

Just another platinum blonde dork on a dragon methinks. 🤣

I find it adorable how Rhaenyra and Daemon's line endures whilst Alicent's bloodline ...does not. It's the only joy I can find in all this misery.

#hewholaughslast 😉

What's important is the cute little tyke with Targaryen blond hair is known to the realm and to history as Aegon, the Second of His Name -- they even reference that in the title of next week's episode -- and that his successor is known as Aegon, the Third of His Name.

History does not remember blood, it remembers names

[Meredith Quill]

45 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

What's important is the cute little tyke with Targaryen blond hair is known to the realm and to history as Aegon, the Second of His Name -- they even reference that in the title of next week's episode -- and that his successor is known as Aegon, the Third of His Name.

History does not remember blood, it remembers names

Yes, that's important to be sure, however, to a petty bish such as myself, it's poetic that the line of Targ kings continues via Rhaenyra & Daemon, not Alicent and Otto. That matters most to me, heh. #satisfaction #poeticjustice

1 hour ago, magdalene said:

I can't muster joy only Schadenfreude.  Alicent should not have outlived Rhaenyra but at least all she loved are dead and gone.

I was quoting the magnificent Queen of Thorns, it seemed apt. 😂

[cambridgeguy]

12 hours ago, magdalene said:

When I look at the brilliant girl we are watching right now and think of her ending it really leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

Which makes me wonder how the show is going to portray her much more questionable actions and how the audience will react.  Right now she's the hero - intelligent, decisive, practical, and (apparently) not a spoiled brat even though her parents likely doted on her.  Plus we know Viserys is going to force her to marry Laenor (although that'd be true for any royal kid), Alicent and Otto will conspire to put their son on the throne, etc.  So yeah, a lot of this would never have happened if she was a guy.  She gets a raw deal.

However, she's also going to make some incredibly boneheaded decisions that alienate her strongest allies and manages to turn King's Landing against her, so she's hardly a saint. 

 

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

Right now she's the hero - intelligent, decisive, practical, and (apparently) not a spoiled brat

She's is a spoiled brat: late to Small Council meetings because she's out joyriding, can't be bothered to wash the dragon stink off before she deigns to appear, shows up late to the tourney, rips a page out of a book. That wasn't a mass produced paperback summer beach read but a handcrafted manuscript.

Rhaenyra may be decisive, but suggesting that she fight in the Stepstones isn't necessarily intelligent given that she's the heir. A dragon didn't save the Old King's Grandmother, Queen Rhaenys, or his son, Crown Prince Aemon, when they went to war.

And her action at Dragonstone could easily have ended in disaster. She anticipated what her uncle would do, but apparently gave no thought to what any of the other heavily armed men might do. Armed men in tense situations often do stupid, unpredictable things.

Then there's this piece of unbelievable arrogance

Rhaenys: But the men of the realm already had their opportunity to appoint a ruling queen at the Great Council and they denied it.

Rhaenyra: They denied you, Princess Rhaenys. "The Queen Who Never Was." But they bent the knee to me and called me heir to the throne. 

[magdalene]

6 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Which makes me wonder how the show is going to portray her much more questionable actions and how the audience will react.  Right now she's the hero - intelligent, decisive, practical, and (apparently) not a spoiled brat even though her parents likely doted on her.  Plus we know Viserys is going to force her to marry Laenor (although that'd be true for any royal kid), Alicent and Otto will conspire to put their son on the throne, etc.  So yeah, a lot of this would never have happened if she was a guy.  She gets a raw deal.

However, she's also going to make some incredibly boneheaded decisions that alienate her strongest allies and manages to turn King's Landing against her, so she's hardly a saint. 

 

Sighs. At the end she is mad  with grief and paranoia. She even alienates Daemon. However, none of that changes the basic fact that the Hightowers, Criston Cole,etc.  are the traitors and usurpers because Viserys never changed who was to succeed him.Theirs is the original betrayal who sets it all in motion. And Alicent should have been executed along with Otto and Criston Cole.

[ursula]

The book moment that’s a must see for me is Baela Targaryen and her tiny dragon taking on Sunfire and crippling the dragon and its rider. Following that is Daemon jumping on Aerion’s dragon and taking out his only good eye. Then I want to see Rhaenys’s Big Damn Hero moment.

Yeah… Basically looking forward to all the epic dragon battles. 

[Constantinople]

The Dance didn't create Rhaenyra, they merely placed her flaws in more stark relief, at least according to the book. We'll see if they whitewash her in the show.

Rhaenyra's crimes, which include treason,  political ineptitude, selfishness, lack of any sense duty to the realm and her violent instincts long predated the death of Viserys. Given that, her chances of a successful Queenship were about zero even in the best of times.

[Meredith Quill]

18 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

The Dance didn't create Rhaenyra, they merely placed her flaws in more stark relief, at least according to the book. We'll see if they whitewash her in the show.

Rhaenyra's crimes, which include treason,  political ineptitude, selfishness, lack of any sense duty to the realm and her violent instincts long predated the death of Viserys. Given that, her chances of a successful Queenship were about zero even in the best of times.

I thought you were speaking of Alicent's crimes, then I noticed 'usurper', 'backstabber' and 'malicious gossip', among other crimes, were missing from the list.

[Constantinople]

Rhaenyra herself admitted if Jace, Luke and Joffrey were bastards -- which no one here denies -- she committed high treason

Quote

Princess Rhaenyra would have none of that, but insisted that Prince Aemond should be questioned “sharply” until he revealed where he had heard her sons called “Strongs.” To so name them was tantamount to saying they were bastards, with no rights of succession…and that she herself was guilty of high treason.

[Meredith Quill]

We don't know if they were for sure or not, perhaps the show will confirm or deny it, perhaps not but until then it's gossip. But what isn't gossip and cannot be denied is that Alicent committed treason by going against the express wishes of Viserys and crowning her son king, a la Cersei stylee.

[ursula]

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Rhaenyra herself admitted if Jace, Luke and Joffrey were bastards -- which no one here denies -- she committed high treason

... and there's never any confirmation that they are bastards. In a world where abortion teas can be prepared, Rhaenyra would have been the worst kind of idiot to give birth to not one, but 3 bastards when she knew that her half-brother and his mother's family were looking for any reason to discredit her. In the books, Rhaenys Targaryen (Leanor's mother) had dark Baratheon looks and she could have passed those onto her grandchildren. The chances are slim, but they're not zero. And the books never confirms either way. Just like it’s up to the reader to decide if Daeron II was really the King's son.

Edited September 1, 2022 by ursula

[Constantinople]

Odd how Rhaenyra had two silver haired children with Daemon, Daemon had two silver haired children with Laena, yet Rhaenyra and Laenor have 3 children with brown hair.

And while Harwin Strong was Rhaenyra's sworn shield, he didn't need to be in the room when she gave birth.

For that matter, 19 year old Laenor, heir to the richest noble family in Westeros, never had a female sexual partner in his bachelor days. Which is why Rhaenyra didn't want to marry him.

Quote

Yes, yes," the queen said impatiently, "but first we must stop this filth from spreading further. The council must issue an edict. Any man heard speaking of incest or calling Joff a bastard should lose his tongue for it."

"A prudent measure," said Grand Maester Pycelle, his chain of office clinking as he nodded.

A folly," sighed Tyrion. "When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say." Tyrion III, A Clash of Kings

Yet Rhaenyra wasn't satisfied with cutting out Vaemond Velaryon's tongue for calling her three eldest sons bastards, the punishment prescribed by Viserys, she had Daemon murder Vaemond. Odd response for an innocent person.

Some might even say it's a performance

Quote

It was astonishing to see how angry Cersei could wax over accusations she knew perfectly well to be true. If we lose the war, she ought to take up mummery, she has a gift for it. Tyrion III, A Clash of Kings.

Thought not a convincing one.

Quote

Everyone knows. Just look at them. - Aegon at 10, Fire & Blood

One might say children have a prophetic honesty

Quote

Sansa felt tears in her eyes. “He is not! He’s not the least bit like that old drunken king,” she screamed at her sister, forgetting herself in her grief. Father looked at her strangely.

“Gods,” he swore softly, “out of the mouth of babes...", Sansa III, A Game of Thrones.

And who am I to gainsay Lord Varys?

Quote

A child's faith … such sweet innocence … and yet, they say wisdom oft comes from the mouths of babes." Sansa V, A Game of Thrones

But I can't stop someone from adopting the ostrich as their personal sigil.

[ursula]

7 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Odd how Rhaenyra had two silver haired children with Daemon, Daemon had two silver haired children with Laena, yet Rhaenyra and Laenor have 3 children with brown hair.

And while Harwin Strong was Rhaenyra's sworn shield, he didn't need to be in the room when she gave birth.

For that matter, 19 year old Laenor, heir to the richest noble family in Westeros, never had a female sexual partner in his bachelor days. Which is why Rhaenyra didn't want to marry him.

Yet Rhaenyra wasn't satisfied with cutting out Vaemond Velaryon's tongue for calling her three eldest sons bastards, the punishment prescribed by Viserys, she had Daemon murder Vaemond. Odd response for an innocent person.

Some might even say it's a performance

Thought not a convincing one.

One might say children have a prophetic honesty

And who am I to gainsay Lord Varys?

But I can't stop someone from adopting the ostrich as their personal sigil.

🤯🤯🤯
 

Did you literally write an entire thesis complete with citations to insult someone for having a different opinion from you about fictional characters?! 😆😆😆

Edited September 2, 2022 by ursula

[Constantinople]

8 hours ago, ursula said:

🤯🤯🤯
 

Did you literally write an entire thesis complete with citations to insult someone for having a different opinion from you about fictional characters?! 😆😆😆

Not insulting, debating. And when debating it's customary to cite supporting evidence.

Besides, I couldn't resist praising Sansa's insight given how strongly @SilverStormm feels about her. 😆😅😂

[Meredith Quill]

I'll give you this - you're certainly committed, lol. I'm far too lazy casual to debate to that level, hee. 

[SilverShadow]

One thing to remember is IIRC a good chunk, if not all of, the book material is from Maesters' perspectives who would have had every reason to make Rhaenyra sound worse than she was to make the point a woman shouldn't sit the Iron Throne. Not that I think she'll be a saint at all, but we're getting a third-person omniscient take on the story after having heard it from sources that would have had biases. And ofc there'll be some differences because of the medium change as well.  

[PatsyandEddie]

Much like the history of Cleopatra, who was an intelligent,  highly educated woman but not above kin slaying to achieve the throne and save her country. 
History is written by the victors which definitely colours their recollections and views. 

Edited September 6, 2022 by PatsyandEddie

[Constantinople]

12 hours ago, SilverShadow said:

One thing to remember is IIRC a good chunk, if not all of, the book material is from Maesters' perspectives who would have had every reason to make Rhaenyra sound worse than she was to make the point a woman shouldn't sit the Iron Throne.

Except

Quote

Grand Maester Munkun’s The Dance of the Dragons, A True Telling...drew on many different sorts of materials...his account of the inner workings of the court relies upon the confessions of Grand Maester Orwyle, as set down before his execution. Unlike Mushroom and Septon Eustace, whose versions derive from rumors, hearsay, and family legend, the Grand Maester was present at the meeting and took part in the council’s deliberations and decisions…though it must be recognized that at the time he wrote, Orwyle was most anxious to show himself in a favorable light and absolve himself of any blame for what was to follow.
Fire & Blood, The Dying of the Dragons - The Blacks and the Greens

and

Quote

With...Orwyle languishing in dungeons (where Orwyle had begun writing his confessions, the text that would provide Munkun with the foundation on which he would build his monumental True Telling).
Fire & Blood, Aftermath - The Hour of the Wolf

The Wolf refers to Lord Cregan Stark, a supporter of Rhaenyra. Cregan Stark was the one who threw Orwyle in the dungeon from which Orwyle wrote his concessions and the one who put Orwyle on trial for his life.

Grand Maester Orwyle had every incentive to make Rhaenyra look as good as possible.

[magdalene]

48 minutes ago, PatsyandEddie said:

Much like the history of Cleopatra, who was an intelligent,  highly educated but not above kin slaying to achieve the throne and save her country. 
History is written by the victors which definitely colours their recollections and views. 

Personally I am bitter that the disgusting Bobby B. killed Rhaegar Targaryan.  The Targs though were very good at sabotaging themselves, though I suspect the Maesters helped the process along.

Sometimes the victors do more than color their recollections though - a case in point being what the Tudors and their mouth piece Shakespeare did to the last Plantagenet king.

[magdalene]

Ok, here's my two cents about what's going to happen in tomorrows episode and how wrong am I going to be. I have book knowledge but the show has already differed from the source in some instances.

Fresh from his victory against the crab guy Daemon and Viserys reconcile for a hot minute. I think Daemon and Rhaenyra will come close to having sex and either they will be caught or Daemon will stop it and seemingly jilt Rhae.  I am not sure about the next part, but I think a jilted  Rhae is going to throw herself at Criston Cole. They will have sex but both or at least he will immediately regret it him being kings guard and all. My reasoning is that so far they get along too well for his later actions to make any sense.  I think he will loathe himself and her for having broken his vows. It's a thin line between loathing and hatred. It would explain so much how he turns against her.

Meanwhile, Daemon is going to go to the king and ask again for a divorce, telling Viserys straight out he wants to marry Rhaenyra.  Big brother will lose his shit and banish Daemon once again.  We have to be setting up Daemon's first wife finally pleasing Daemon and dying. so he can marry his second wife Leanna. The one he is actually happy with.

I am pretty sure we have to be having the big twist. Lord Strong making his move, and what a move it is....nothing but admiration for him and his sons.

So, by the end of this episode I expect Rhae to be married in name only, with the oldest Strong son providing stud service and his father having a new position in court.

[magdalene]

Dissecting the trailer for episode 5 - as one does - it looks like Daemon is about to become a widower. Well, we have to get to the wives he actually cares about.

Correction: It looks like he will make himself a widower. You can see his hooded figure seemingly make the horse rear up.

Edited September 15, 2022 by magdalene

[magdalene]

Shocked at the amount of  Daemon/Rhaenyra shipping all over the Internet. I don't think there was ever much Jaime/Cersei shipping, or was there?  Will it continue once the older actress takes over?

I wonder how Daemon and Leanna is going to go over?  In the book he had genuine feelings for her and he loved his daughters with her - one of them will be a badass herself.

Refreshed my memory on the kids. I think show only fans can have no inkling what they are in for and how dark it all gets.. It makes Hamlet and King Lear look like Shakespeare comedy.

I wonder had Viserys not been such a wishy-washy people pleaser, and hadn't constantly forced the kids into activities together, pushed them into close proximity even though they hated each other - could some of the deaths been avoided?

It is heart wrenching. And I include Alicent's daughter and her baby in this too. With the exception of AegonII and especially Aemond - they deserve their fates.

[ybrik]

I have been listening to the parts of the Dance of the Dragon from Fire and Blood and from watching this show, I find myself really interested in the Strongs. They have subtly been brought in. The father giving very sage advise to the King while the oldest son is brought up as the strongest knight in one episode and the next we see is part of the City Watch which is still considered loyal to Daemon. Then his youngest son, Larys is hanging around the Queen and her court. It seems like they are playing on all sides and for a time look like no matter what they will be close to the power no matter the results unfortunately they also reside in Harrenhal so they are cursed. Which means their main line comes to an end when the show/the Dance ends. Their blood may continue through Dunk and Brianne in later generations.

Also watched a really interesting theory video on Larys Strong by Joe Magician on youtube. He has interesting theories about why there is a Weirwood tree in the show when there isn’t one in GOT and how Larys may figure into it. 

Just from the part I listened to about the Dance, I think it would be wrong to say that Orwyle would try to down play Rhaenyra’s bad qualities or because he was trying to stay alive, it makes his account more truthful. In fact I think it is the opposite. I think the worst things about both sides that he writes about are probably overdone so that he and those he stood with look better. If the leaders of both side are made to look like irrational monsters then it makes him look better for trying to steer them to a better course. He can try and does try to claim that he was acting on behalf of the realm to bring peace and stop the war. It would be different if either Aegon II or Rhaenyra were alive when he writes this so they could defend themselves. However, they are dead so it is easy to lay the worst deeds on them and those survivors will go along with this as it is easier to and cleaner. Plus with Orwyle, you got remember the guy also vowed to take the black to avoid being executed only to run and hide till a friend/ally got in power to help him.

I wonder how much the show will expand in the next season or even towards the end of this season. As it has been mentioned in other topics, this show has some very interesting characters but not many that you want to root for. However from Fire and Blood, once the fighting starts a lot of new faces and houses get brought in. Hell there is the one Frey(by marriage), Sabitha, that I think if done right will definitely have fans. There are all the different bastards who become major characters. There are the twin Valeryon girls. I am also really hoping we get to see more of the Starks than just Cregan. I wouldn’t mind if we had an episode or two with the oldest of Rhaenyra’s boys at Winterfell when he goes there asking for support.   

[magdalene]

They are really leaning into the Daemon impotence thing. What is the point? We know he fathers children with both Leana and Rhaenyra. Do they both have magical vaginas, healing the poor Boo? Laughs.

[Constantinople]

57 minutes ago, magdalene said:

They are really leaning into the Daemon impotence thing. What is the point? We know he fathers children with both Leana and Rhaenyra.

Or do we?

[Meredith Quill]

7 hours ago, magdalene said:

They are really leaning into the Daemon impotence thing. What is the point? We know he fathers children with both Leana and Rhaenyra. Do they both have magical vaginas, healing the poor Boo? Laughs.

I don't get that vibe, I know many seem to but I prefer to look deeper at what appears to be going on in his head. To me, the show is revealing that Daemon is psychologically sensitive when it comes to intimacy and he needs to be emotionally in the right frame of mind to perform. Much as he may attempt it at times, he just isn't into mindless sex; he needs to feel happy about the time, the place, the situation and his lover. And there's nothing wrong with that either. 

[Constantinople]

3 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

I don't get that vibe, I know many seem to but I prefer to look deeper at what appears to be going on in his head. To me, the show is revealing that Daemon is psychologically sensitive when it comes to intimacy and he needs to be emotionally in the right frame of mind to perform. Much as he may attempt it at times, he just isn't into mindless sex; he needs to feel happy about the time, the place, the situation and his lover. And there's nothing wrong with that either. 

There's something wrong with it if you have issues when your prospective lover (Rhaenyra) shows actual interest instead of just being a passive participant, then you freak and abandon her in a pleasure house.

[Meredith Quill]

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

There's something wrong with it if you have issues when your prospective lover (Rhaenyra) shows actual interest instead of just being a passive participant, then you freak and abandon her in a pleasure house.

Not really no, not if that wasn't his original intent and who knows what his reasons were? To me it looked like he wanted to but stopped himself and was annoyed that he had to do so in the moment. Perhaps he didn't expect it to go that far, perhaps he felt guilty about deflowering her in such a public place - who knows. You know what they say about assuming... 😉

Abandoning her was an asshole move though, but nobody ever said Daemon isn't an asshole, heh.

[racked]

2 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

Not really no, not if that wasn't his original intent and who knows what his reasons were? To me it looked like he wanted to but stopped himself and was annoyed that he had to do so in the moment. Perhaps he didn't expect it to go that far, perhaps he felt guilty about deflowering her in such a public place - who knows. You know what they say about assuming... 😉

Abandoning her was an asshole move though, but nobody ever said Daemon isn't an asshole, heh.

An asshole who is also at least a little evil! But I’m ready for the show to have us rooting for him and Rhaenyara to get together later. Knowing how things go in the book, it won’t be hard for me to get there if only because I will root for whoever is on her side. But it’s surprising (at least surprising to me) how many Criston fans there are in the non book thread, who think she basically raped him and that justifies his violent rampage last night. I personally don’t see it, even though they did a good job showing him grappling with breaking his vows. They do make you take so many vows…

[Dac22]

23 minutes ago, racked said:

But it’s surprising (at least surprising to me) how many Criston fans there are in the non book thread, who think she basically raped him and that justifies his violent rampage last night. I personally don’t see it, even though they did a good job showing him grappling with breaking his vows. They do make you take so many vows…

To be fair, Rhaenyra did take advantage of his trust and loyalty when she seduced him into breaking his vows. The decision was ultimately his as he himself points out, but viewers clearly saw that she pressured him and never should have put him in that position to begin with.

So it isn't rape, but she absolutely did screw him over all things considered. 

While not a justification, I also think people can understand having one of those days where nothing is going right and then some idiot does something that makes you snap even if your reaction (most times vocally irl) is extreme. So there is some level of understanding there even if Criston went way over-the-top which is par for the course with this universe. 

Unlike us, strictly show viewers don't have any preconceived notions and therefore take everything as it comes rather than letting biases get in the way before the show even started.

Edited September 19, 2022 by Dac22

[Constantinople]

3 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

Perhaps he didn't expect it to go that far

He took her to a whorehouse, was about to doggy her from behind before she turned around and he didn't expect it to go that far?

😄😆😅😂

Edited September 19, 2022 by Constantinople

[Cristofle]

5 hours ago, Constantinople said:

There's something wrong with it if you have issues when your prospective lover (Rhaenyra) shows actual interest instead of just being a passive participant, then you freak and abandon her in a pleasure house.

I agree, although the way she was taking charge seemed to be working for him at first in this episode until the brawl broke out. Also, I think he legit may have killed his wife to try and go make a play for her, heh. So it might be a journey for Daemon, I guess.

I don't really see Laena taking on a lover Harwin Strong style, so I'm guessing the child we see her with and baby she's pregnant with are both Daemon's. I don't really know where the show is going with the impotence angle - it's like they thought it was interesting but didn't really think through it. 

[ursula]

Criston Cole is about the only thing the show's done that I've unreservedly enjoyed so far. His reasons for turning against Rhaenyra were so mysterious (every POV had a different theory), that a simple "hell hath no fury like woman scorned" would have been a let down imho. 

On the other hand, I have no idea what's the deal with Daemon's performance issues. Or why he killed his wife (after years of living apart from her, what changed now?). Or what was the point of him showing up to the wedding in the middle of his banishment, flirting with Rhaenyra, and then ... vanishing? Again if he's supposed to kill his wife because he wanted to marry Rhaenyra why didn't he take her up on her offer? Literally the only thing he did was make people clutch their pearls a bit, and leave. They could have taken his appearance out of the episode and it won't have made any difference. It almost felt like he was written into the wedding and Royce's death was shot because Matt Smith is contractually obligated to have X amount of screen-time in every episode. 

Edited September 19, 2022 by ursula

[Dac22]

49 minutes ago, ursula said:

Criston Cole is about the only thing the show's done that I've unreservedly enjoyed so far. 

In the books, I always thought Criston was a fascinating character and that has fortunately carried over into the show so far. I think Jaime's assertation that Criston embodies "the best and the worst of us" is how I pictured him as well.

That's not to say he doesn't do terrible things and such, but I still find him to be compelling. Even more so on the show as there's actually more depth and nuance to his character to help enhance his story.

I can also relate in a way to losing the one thing that defines you. I basically had an extra-grandfather figure in my life, and once he lost a job he considered to define his life (after his wife died years before), he really struggled with it and fell into a deep depression.  So that kind of hits close to home with me. 

I'm really looking forward to see how the show handles his dynamic with Alicent going forward, even more so after Emily Carey's episode five interview dropped a nugget about it. 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Dac22

[Meredith Quill]

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

He took her to a whorehouse, was about to doggy her from behind before she turned around and he didn't expect it to go that far?

😄😆😅😂

Sometimes, people can get carried away and then stop themselves at the very last moment, just sayin'. 😉 😉

[Meredith Quill]

2 hours ago, Dac22 said:

To be fair, Rhaenyra did take advantage of his trust and loyalty when she seduced him into breaking his vows. The decision was ultimately his as he himself points out, but viewers clearly saw that she pressured him and never should have put him in that position to begin with.

So it isn't rape, but she absolutely did screw him over all things considered. 

While not a justification, I also think people can understand having one of those days where nothing is going right and then some idiot does something that makes you snap even if your reaction (most times vocally irl) is extreme. So there is some level of understanding there even if Criston went way over-the-top which is par for the course with this universe. 

Unlike us, strictly show viewers don't have any preconceived notions and therefore take everything as it comes rather than letting biases get in the way before the show even started.

She never pressured him imo, she put it on offer and he willingly accepted. Was she wrong to make the offer? Yes. Was he wrong to accept it? YES. If he didn't want to turn her down flat due to being wary of offending her - pretend to be sick, double over in pain - do SOMETHING - he had options and he made his choice, and in doing so, he screwed himself over. Seems to me he felt guilty about breaking his vow then figured if they ran away and got married it would make breaking his vow justifiable. After Rhaenyra turned him down, he had nowhere else to go - psychologically - to restore his honour so he fessed up at the lightest questioning wishing to purge himself of his own regrets - and as her sworn sword no less - had no consideration for the position he was likely putting Rhaenyra in wrt her reputation as heir.

He's a selfish douche and he took it all out on Laenor's boyfriend, who from my perspective acted smug and dumb but not threatening and didn't deserve to die for it! Screw Criston - bitterpsycho - Cole. 

[Dac22]

17 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

She never pressured him imo

Once he tried to leave the room, it should have been over.  If you are actively ignoring the choices of your partner, then you are pressuring them in my opinion.

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If he didn't want to turn her down flat due to being wary of offending her - pretend to be sick, double over in pain - do SOMETHING - he had options and he made his choice.

I don't think someone has to put on a show to get out of something. Once again, he bolted for the door and she refused to allow him to leave at that moment. 

And using the 'he made his choice' point implies his choice to leave the room is invalid simply because she ignored it. Choosing to give in was his third choice in the scene after he tried to leave and told her to stop undressing which she ignored. 

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and as her sworn sword no less - had no consideration for the position he was likely putting Rhaenyra in wrt her reputation as heir.

Loyalty begets loyalty. If Rhaeneyra isn't loyal to him, then he has no reason to be loyal to her. She betrayed him first from my perspective.

Edited September 19, 2022 by Dac22

[Meredith Quill]

33 minutes ago, Dac22 said:

Once he tried to leave the room, it should have been over.  If you are actively ignoring the choices of your partner, then you are pressuring them in my opinion.

I don't think someone has to put on a show to get out of something. Once again, he bolted for the door and she refused to allow him to leave at that moment. 

And using the 'he made his choice' point implies his choice to leave the room is invalid simply because she ignored it. Choosing to give in was his third choice in the scene after he tried to leave and told her to stop undressing which she ignored. 

Loyalty begets loyalty. If Rhaeneyra isn't loyal to him, then he has no reason to be loyal to her. She betrayed him first from my perspective.

Nope. Couldn't disagree more with this viewpoint.

Why should it be over because he tried to leave when he presumed she was being silly and he wasn't in the mood for games? Once he knew what her intentions truly were - he didn't try to leave at all - that's the crux of the matter.

It isn't about whether someone 'has' to put on a show to get out of something, it's about the path of least resistance - they don't live in a utopian world and neither do we, so sometimes what 'is' isn't the same as what 'should be'. Sometimes you have to be pragmatic.

So is his third choice invalid? He's not capable of changing his mind once he understood what was on offer? You make it sound like he acted in anguish or was conflicted - I saw no such indications.

He betrayed himself, his vows and then later, the person he was sworn to protect.

[Cristofle]

17 minutes ago, Dac22 said:

Loyalty begets loyalty. If Rhaeneyra isn't loyal to him, then he has no reason to be loyal to her. She betrayed him first from my perspective.

Eh, in this time period, he has a literal sworn oath to protect her no matter what she does to him or what she demands of him. Her treatment of him is irrelevant to his vow. They are not equals. Cold, certainly, but true in the time. Which yes, she more or less he insisted he break the celibacy vow and her position as his superior makes that even more challenging, but tbh, that vow has never seemed exactly set in stone in Westeros. No one cares when the Nights Watch or the Kingsguard sleep around/have sex with prostitutes - they just can't get married, father children, or own property, and above all they must protect the royal bloodline. Hence Jamie Lannister was seen as so hideously wrong by Westeros in betraying his vow even though his act of killing the Mad King was arguably one of his more sympathetic moves to the reader. Also, Jamie is eternally haunted by the fact that he failed Rhaegar's young children, because that's how deeply ingrained the oath to protect the royals is to the Kingsguard. Telling the Queen Rhaenyra's secret when Alicent is openly digging for dirt and cannot be doing so for any noble reason in regards to Rhaenyra risks Rhaenyra in any number of possible ways, and would be viewed in Westerosi terms as a much more severe breaking of his vows than having sex with her. 

Of course, I said this in the episode thread - Criston struck me as enormously, kind of bizarrely naive in this episode. I do think his rage and misery was sparked more by her denial of him than the original act of pressuring him into sex. He thought that act meant so much to her, she might actually leave her inheritance for him and go run off with him, which is a ludicrous idea. Furthermore, he seems so insulated in this fantasy, he apparently has pretty much entirely missed that no one is talking about him. No one suspects he and Rhaenyra did anything. Rhaenyra and DAEMON are the topic of gossip, namely that he took her to a brothel and possibly had sex with her there. He seems not to have put A and B together that he is unfortunately her second choice - she went after him only after Daemon denied her. I can't even blame poor dumb Joffrey for literally never considering that Criston would get so violently triggered because he was harboring some genuine belief that Rhaenyra might give it all up for him, because that's so far out of the realm of possiblity, it would never occur to anyone BUT him. So maybe he's so lost in his naive little world of what he thought was happening and how significant this frankly isn't for her compared to him, he didn't see that Alicent had no good reason to be asking the questions she was asking, and that she was fixated on Daemon and whatever might have happened there, not him. 

Still, I have no idea how Alicent feasibly gets him out of what he did. In the book, he killed Joffrey in the tourney, but here he just viciously murdered him for no good reason he could possibly express publicly. In the middle of a WEDDING. He killed a high-born knight from a noble house, and he attacked and struck Laenor - the son and heir of the richest man in the kingdom and the future King Consort. That he survives the wedding by more than a day is very unrealistic going forward. 

[Dac22]

16 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

Eh, in this time period, he has a literal sworn oath to protect her no matter what she does to him or what she demands of him. Her treatment of him is irrelevant to his vow. 

Except from Criston's perspective, protecting her would have meant lying to The Queen which would have also been against his vows. As Jaime said, to keep one vow is to forsake another.

If he would have spilled to someone like Otto, then that would be crap. But choosing to not break another vow for Rheanyra is something I can understand.

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He thought that act meant so much to her, she might actually leave her inheritance for him and go run off with him, which is a ludicrous idea. 

No more absurd than her thinking Criston would have been cool forsaking his vows and honor for a night of fun.

What Criston was trying to do is what Robb did with his wife in GoT. It was just far more complicated as Rhaenyra is a princess and the heir while he is a member of the Kingsguard. 

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No one suspects he and Rhaenyra did anything. Rhaenyra and DAEMON are the topic of gossip, namely that he took her to a brothel and possibly had sex with her there. He seems not to have put A and B together that he is unfortunately her second choice - she went after him only after Daemon denied her.

How much is the Daemon stuff common knowledge outside of Viserys, Alicent, and Otto? 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Dac22

[Meredith Quill]

10 minutes ago, Dac22 said:

Except from Criston's perspective, protecting her would have meant lying to The Queen which would have also been against his vows. As Jaime said, to keep one vow is to forsake another.

If he would have spilled to someone like Otto, then that would be crap. But choosing to not break another vow for Rheanyra is something I can understand.

Except not because Alicent never asked him anything specific - she was babbling on about Rhaenyra's virtue and wondering...something, and then Ser Cole, the merry old soul, just blurted out what happened without even actually being asked a single thing.

[Cristofle]

20 minutes ago, Dac22 said:

No more absurd than her thinking Criston would have been cool forsaking his vows and honor for a night of fun.

No, Criston's idea is definitely more absurd. Royals are prone to doing what they want and to hell with the consequences, and that goes double for if that person is somehow "beneath" them. It's not flattering, but not that surprising that Rhaenyra didn't really consider or care that much about his vow of celibacy. It IS shocking that Criston believed it meant the princess and heir to the Iron Throne actually seriously intended to give up her inheritance. Sure, she's whined, but mostly because she wants to be taken seriously as the heir and she lashes out when she's not taken seriously by Viserys. Rhaenyra's thinking was probably not particularly uncommon, but Criston's line of thinking was unheard of. Hell, Sam was shocked that Jon was a virgin and intended to stay that way in S1. The vow of celibacy was almost a joke. 

23 minutes ago, Dac22 said:

How much is the Daemon stuff common knowledge outside of Viserys, Alicent, and Otto? 

A lot, I'm guessing. Given that it happened in a brothel and Larys was whispering to Alicent about the tea. Honestly, it was kind of contrived that Joffrey noticed Criston more than Daemon. Sure, Criston was staring miserably at her, but Daemon was eye-forking the hell out of her, lol, and furthermore, she was reciprocating. Although perhaps Criston was the easier path to focus on from Joffrey's perspective - having her guard be her secret lover was easily enough handled in terms of what Joffrey wanted, but having it be Daemon is a whole other thing. 

[magdalene]

They changed the book with having Daemon murder his first wife.  In the book he is nowhere near her when she has her  accident and dies. There are other ambiguous events coming up, making him responsible for all of them would put Daemon into one note villain territory for me. Daemon should never be one note anything.

[Dac22]

21 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Except not because Alicent never asked him anything specific - she was babbling on about Rhaenyra's virtue and wondering...something, and then Ser Cole, the merry old soul, just blurted out what happened without even actually being asked a single thing.

That's why I said from his perspective because there is no other reason for Alicent to be going on like that unless she knew about them Criston is not aware of Daemon and those rumors as far as we know.