S02.E09: Painted from Memory

[jhlipton]

Taking the Tommy vs Nolan debate to "Past Seasons" since we don't have an "All Seasons" thread.

Edited August 18, 2014 by jhlipton

[gina64]

When I initially heard Datak say he didn't need her dead I thought to myself the show is doing a retcon but then after a little thought I felt that Datak was lying that he was retconning his own actions because of some latent guilt. At the time he was enraged like when he was enraged by the E rep commander and for the same reason...his pride. The Erep guy insulted him and told him he was going to be a nothing.  Datak snapped and killed the guy.  Stahma sleeping with Kenya wounded his pride and he wanted blood. I'm sure he meant for Stahma to kill Kenya.  I think now he wants to convince himself he's more civilized than he actually is so he said he didn't really need her dead, but he did. 

 

 

MDKNIGHT - This was my interpretation of that scene, too. 

[Ottis]

I feel Stahma's reaction was perfect.  Taking over Datak's business is one thing.  Seeing someone you murdered, walking around is another matter entirely.  Also, Stahma is a much better character when you see different sides of her.

 

 

Except for now you don't know who she is. The Stahma we saw flaunt her world's social mores and deccades of tradition, the result of a well-considered, ambitious process where she could actually throw off the yoke AND convince others around her to do the same in a very ballsy move, completely freaked out when confronted with something that she *knew* was not possible (she had actually buried Kenya). It's almost as if she has preexisting superstitions about the dead or ghosts (if she did, that would have helped explain of hysterical reaction). Someone with the ability to pull off what she did should also be able to look at an impossibility and figure out what is actually happening and leverage it. This was the scifi equivalent of a damsel in distress (helped out by Datak, no less).

 

So now we are left to wonder: Will she suddenly freak out in her dealings with Datak now, despite all she accomplished before? Will she lose it at any time? So her intent to take over the business was basically doomed from the start, because she was unstable? We don't know who Stahma is any more. Which makes me sad because I liked who she appeared to be.

[CoderLady]

I feel Stahma's reaction was perfect.  Taking over Datak's business is one thing.  Seeing someone you murdered, walking around is another matter entirely.  Also, Stahma is a much better character when you see different sides of her. 

 

I agree. Stahma is fascinating because she's making herself up -- brilliantly, of course -- as she goes along, but it doesn't mean everything is going to go smoothly. This, for instance is a work of art:

 

I loved the scene where Stahma stops Amanda in the market and tells her that SkinKenya isn't the real Kenya. Murray's changing expressions as she tries to warn Amanda who in return promises to hurt her were wonderful -- a mix of anxiety, sorrow, astonishment, fear, resignation and finally Stahma's patented obsequiousness. It was a great performance. Stahma recognized another woman who was every bit as ruthless as she was.

 

Under the circumstances, the fact that she isn't totally freaking out but managing to course-adjust and maintain her façade well enough for no one to notice anything is wrong is nothing short of amazing. To me it makes her a more fascinating character than a perfect, unfazed moustache-twirling villain. There are lots of those in crime and sci-fi dramas but only one Stahma that I know of.

 

Oh, yeah - the closest thing to Stahma I can think of is Battlestar Galactica's Gaius Baltar -- another brilliant opportunist, but someone who was a lot less prepared to handle power than Stahma.

Edited August 20, 2014 by CoderLady

[maczero]

Except for now you don't know who she is. The Stahma we saw flaunt her world's social mores and deccades of tradition, the result of a well-considered, ambitious process where she could actually throw off the yoke AND convince others around her to do the same in a very ballsy move, completely freaked out when confronted with something that she *knew* was not possible (she had actually buried Kenya). It's almost as if she has preexisting superstitions about the dead or ghosts (if she did, that would have helped explain of hysterical reaction). Someone with the ability to pull off what she did should also be able to look at an impossibility and figure out what is actually happening and leverage it. This was the scifi equivalent of a damsel in distress (helped out by Datak, no less).

 

So now we are left to wonder: Will she suddenly freak out in her dealings with Datak now, despite all she accomplished before? Will she lose it at any time? So her intent to take over the business was basically doomed from the start, because she was unstable? We don't know who Stahma is any more. Which makes me sad because I liked who she appeared to be.

I totally disagree with your line of thinking.  You're basically limiting Stahma to one character trait and she's definitely more than that.  Yes, she's cold and calculating but we've seen her scared before.  Although she's manipulated Datak for years, she was definitely terrified of him.  There's also the time when Nolan saved her from the shrill bomb.  She let out the girliest squeal as Nolan yanked her out of the car.  Even the clergy man who threatened her made her pretty nervous.  Stahma has never been fearless.  And honestly, I'd call bullshit if Stahma weren't freaking out over Kenya returning from the dead.

Edited August 20, 2014 by maczero

[Izeinwinter]

Murder, plots and schemes are all calculated risks. In such endeavors, she pits herself against enemies, against the world.

It is a high stakes game - the highest of stakes - but it is a contest with rules on can understand. 

 

 Seeing the dead walking around puts your sanity, or your understanding of the workings of reality in doubt. That is an entirely different order of fear. And for someone like Stahma "And I may be loosing my mind" would be especially intolerable. 

[sjohnson]

I thought at least the exchange between Datak and Stahma about how long a human could survive underground made it plain Stahma wasn't afraid of ghosts. 

[Ottis]

Oh, yeah - the closest thing to Stahma I can think of is Battlestar Galactica's Gaius Baltar -- another brilliant opportunist, but someone who was a lot less prepared to handle power than Stahma.

 

 

And Gauis Baltar was always one thing - a scared, power hungry man who sought out changes for his own good. He might pretend to be stronger, but he always crumbled in the end. And as a result, you knew that what he sought was usually not for the good of the wider cause.

 

Stahma? No idea. Based on what we saw in this episode, she cannot run Datak's business. I guess she goes back to being a frustrated housewife. 

 

And honestly, I'd call bullshit if Stahma weren't freaking out over Kenya returning from the dead.

 

 

Unless the characters on this show are aware of ways someone can come back from being dead (and buried by their killer, no less), then there is *no way Kenya could come back from the dead, therefore that couldn't be Kenya.* That's the way the Stahma who took over Datak's empire would have reasoned. The way she freaked out isn't complexity. It is inconsistency.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Ottis

[sjohnson]

I'm afraid Ottis is right. 

 

And the way that Kenya didn't point at Stahma and shriek "You poisoned me!" proved that to her immediately. 

 

I must admit though I'm very much in the camp that someone as astoundingly resourceful as Stahma wouldn't suddenly break. 

 

By the way, Stahma actually believed Datak's claim he didn't want her to kill Kenya. Not only was Stahma suddenly superstitious and ignorant, she was suddenly downright gullible. 

 

I think part of what's going on is that they're just undoing Stahma's separation from Datak. Makes me wonder why they bothered in the first place, except...after Datak and Stahma get together again, they can write another sensational breakup!

[GaT]

Unless the characters on this show are aware of ways someone can come back from being dead (and buried by their killer, no less), then there is *no way Kenya could come back from the dead, therefore that couldn't be Kenya.* That's the way the Stahma who took over Datak's empire would have reasoned. The way she freaked out isn't complexity. It is inconsistency.

I think the fact that she doesn't know about humans means she can't follow that logic. She asked Datak how long a human could survive while buried in the dirt, so she wasn't sure that Kenya was really dead when she buried her, & she had no idea if a human could survive when they were buried. She can't decide it wasn't Kenya based on the fact that Kenya can't come back from the dead because she couldn't be sure she was ever dead.

[Sonny]

Well, if someone I thought was dead would just reappear, I would doubt things as well. Why this should mean she can't run Datak's business any more, I don't understand. She was reasonable enough to search for the dead body to make sure Kenya was really dead.

Everything else I can blame on bad writing, characterization and stupid plot lines. The acting was great!

I was a bit bummed that they solved the Kenya-thing in one episode. It would have been nice to have them take more time to find the truth. On the other hand I like that they focus on fewer plot lines per episode and don't spread things as thin as the Irzu plot. I just hope they get on with Irisa's story soon.

[MDKNIGHT]

I think that the combination of not knowing the limits of human physiology (for all she knows humans can spend an hour or two without breathing...when would that come up in conversation between aliens. It once came up in an old Dr Who that Gallifreyans can survive the VACUUM OF SPACE [which as an aside NO WAY]  for a limited time explaining how the Doctor [number 4 IIRC]  survived being thrown out an airlock.  But until that happend we didn't know that. ) and the fact that she WANTED Kenya not to be dead gave Stahma a reasonable reason for freaking out and I don't see it as some sort of unasailable weakness.  We don't know what the heck Datak's reaction would have been if the General he strangled came through the door.   His freak out might have been worse for all we know...babling in front of witnesses "No No I killed you You have to be dead!."  But he wasn't in love with the General so it isn't even a fair comparison if he didn't  We will never know.  In any case Stahma recovered from her shock and recovered from her loss and probably regained her center by giving Kenya a gravestone and a farewell song.  Like I've said before I'm glad it at least hurt her a little because what she did was horrible even if at the time it was out of self preservation.  I hope that until the day she dies Stahma wonders what would have happened if she had run off with Kenya and if she may not have been a happier person if she had.  Running away with Kenya might have been her Norwegian fjords (that's a The Bridge reference) 

 

I think it is interesting that they wrote in a method for Stahma to eventually be caught if they should ever choose to take it.  They could just as easily made it clear that Stahma has well and truely gotten away with it.  Stahma took Kenya's St Christopher medal and if Amanda EVER sees her with it she's DONE.  OTOH she may plant it on someone down the road and frame them.

[maczero]

Unless the characters on this show are aware of ways someone can come back from being dead (and buried by their killer, no less), then there is *no way Kenya could come back from the dead, therefore that couldn't be Kenya.* That's the way the Stahma who took over Datak's empire would have reasoned. The way she freaked out isn't complexity. It is inconsistency.

Well if the characters on the show know there's a way for someone to come back from the dead then there would be no reason to freak out.  Stahma was trying to wrap her mind around what she perceived to be impossible.  She had a momentary panic attack.  Eventually she gathered her wits and went to look for the real Kenya's body.   This notion that Stahma showing fear contradicts her previous actions doesn't make sense.  No one can be defined by a single trait.   

[Chaos Theory]

What are we fighting about? Whether Stahma is capable of remorse, a moment of panic after seeing a thought to be dead lover that you killed, love for her, hope that she is actually alive, desperation, fear? All those things are well inside Stahma's wheelhouse.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Chaos Theory