Season 17: Van Buren Ain't Got Time for Detective Beauty Queen

[Xeliou66]

3 hours ago, TakomaSnark said:

I liked several (maybe even most) of the S17 plots/investigations. It really was dragged down by Detective Beauty Queen.

Beauty Queen was the main issue with S17, but the writing wasn’t as good as normal in some of the episodes as well - there were more episodes that I just didn’t find very compelling in S17 than normal - I don’t care for the episodes Talking Points, Release or In Vino Veritas, and then there are several other just average episodes. My favorite from S17 is Deadlock, that’s a great episode, other good ones are Fallout, Good Faith, Over Here, Fear America and The Family Hour. S17 isn’t bad - no season of L&O is bad, some are just better than others, but S17 is my pick for the weakest L&O season. I love Connie though and thought she added a lot to the legal side, she’s my favorite female prosecutor, she was such an improvement over Serena/Borgia. 

[andromeda331]

13 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Beauty Queen was the main issue with S17, but the writing wasn’t as good as normal in some of the episodes as well - there were more episodes that I just didn’t find very compelling in S17 than normal - I don’t care for the episodes Talking Points, Release or In Vino Veritas, and then there are several other just average episodes. My favorite from S17 is Deadlock, that’s a great episode, other good ones are Fallout, Good Faith, Over Here, Fear America and The Family Hour. S17 isn’t bad - no season of L&O is bad, some are just better than others, but S17 is my pick for the weakest L&O season. I love Connie though and thought she added a lot to the legal side, she’s my favorite female prosecutor, she was such an improvement over Serena/Borgia. 

Season 17 was terrible for me. Except for the episodes you mention and Connie I really didn't like it at all. I expected season 18 to be just as bad that I planned to quit after watching the first episode. I was surprised by how much I liked it. The changes they made by moving McCoy up and getting rid of Beauty Queen were really good. I feel bad for the actress. She's been good in other things. But here was just terrible and so was the writing.

[WendyCR72]

7 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

Season 17 was terrible for me. Except for the episodes you mention and Connie I really didn't like it at all. I expected season 18 to be just as bad that I planned to quit after watching the first episode. I was surprised by how much I liked it. The changes they made by moving McCoy up and getting rid of Beauty Queen were really good. I feel bad for the actress. She's been good in other things. But here was just terrible and so was the writing.

I know Milena Govich has directed during the revival. Seems like that is basically her passion as of now. If I recall, Elisabeth Rohm directed an episode, too.

[andromeda331]

On 6/4/2023 at 6:52 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I watched some more season 17 today -

I saw Melting Pot, this is just an average episode IMO, something about it just didn’t really work for me, it could’ve been more interesting than it was, the mystery was decent but it seemed like the episode was unsure of what direction it wanted to go in and they just threw stuff together instead. I thought it was OOC for both Jack and Van Buren to have a screaming match with each other at the DA’s office over the interrogation, both were too wound up and they had known each other for so long it seemed odd things would get so heated. Also it seemed off that Connie would buy that the duress defense that the Hispanic worker was asserting at first, that’s basically just saying that any criminal who’s facing financial hardships has a built in defense for any crime,it obviously turned out to be moot and not much was made of it but I thought it was an absurd defense.

Yeah there's no way Jack and Van Buren would ever scream at each other. That's not how either of them ever would act especially Van Buren. She's been Captain too long and dealt with numerous assholes to end up in a screaming match with anyone. I don't see Connie buying the defense either. It's just an odd episode.

 

Quote

Murder Book was next, this is an interesting episode, one of the ones inspired by OJ and his murder trial, it had some interesting twists and some good scenes with Jack and Arthur. While it was ultimately predictable that the ballplayer did it, it had some good twists and turns such as the bribed juror, overall one of the better season 17 episodes. Huge mistake by the defense lawyer to redirect Lang to say the book was fictional, it allowed Jack to call the rebuttal witness who knew Lang confessed to killing his wife. Had he just rested his case the defense might’ve won. 

I love that McCoy managed to get the book entered into evidence and have him read out the section. I can't believe the defense lawyer made such a big mistake. There goes your career.

Quote

Watching Good Faith now, this is also a good episode, but as I’ve said before Melnick really pisses me off, even more than normal in this one, her saying it was the “right principle” to try to get the religious zealot off because of his faith was epically stupid, no it’s not the right principle, religious beliefs aren’t an excuse for murder, as Jack said if they were just give a free pass to Osama Bin Laden. Her defense had no merit or high ground, it was just ludicrous, and Arthur was right in saying the judge should be removed from then bench for allowing it. I liked how Jack and Connie got to the bottom of the case, and the investigation was good as well. But Melnick angers me even more than normal in this episode.

Yes, she was so infuriating. I love Jack bringing up Bin Laden. He would get a free pass following her defense. That's his faith and he completely believes it. As do many other religious zealots and well most people. People have done a lot of terrible things because of their religious beliefs. Religion beliefs is not an excuse for murder. It's also been tried over and over and the juries always reject it. The judge should have beent thrown off the bench.  

[Xeliou66]

6 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Yeah there's no way Jack and Van Buren would ever scream at each other. That's not how either of them ever would act especially Van Buren. She's been Captain too long and dealt with numerous assholes to end up in a screaming match with anyone. I don't see Connie buying the defense either. It's just an odd episode.

 

I love that McCoy managed to get the book entered into evidence and have him read out the section. I can't believe the defense lawyer made such a big mistake. There goes your career.

Yes, she was so infuriating. I love Jack bringing up Bin Laden. He would get a free pass following her defense. That's his faith and he completely believes it. As do many other religious zealots and well most people. People have done a lot of terrible things because of their religious beliefs. Religion beliefs is not an excuse for murder. It's also been tried over and over and the juries always reject it. The judge should have beent thrown off the bench.  

Yeah I thought Jack and Anita yelling at each other in Melting Pot was just off, it was just a minor disagreement over an interrogation but they both got very heated. The whole episode just seemed kind of odd and went in a variety of directions without ever really being compelling.

Murder Book had a good plot, while it was predictable the ballplayer would be the perp the twists were pretty good, and I liked the scenes between Jack and Arthur. But yeah the defense attorney was really a moron to redirect his client, he should’ve just gotten him off the stand and rested his case.

Good Faith is one of the strongest season 17 episodes but Melnick angers me even more than normal in it - her defense was bogus and her acting the whole time all the way through the end that it was the “right principle” and being very self righteous really irritated me. Trying to use being extremely religious as an excuse to commit murder is insane. I really dislike Melnick. But I do like the episode, it was an interesting case. I liked Van Buren’s interrogation of the punk who sat the other church on fire early on. As I’ve said before I had mixed feelings about Mary, the killer’s daughter - she lied and her lie resulted in her dad killing the teacher but she was messed up, between her religious zealot dad and her creep guidance counselor using her situation to sleep with her, it’s not surprising she was screwed up. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

6 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Yeah there's no way Jack and Van Buren would ever scream at each other. That's not how either of them ever would act especially Van Buren. She's been Captain too long and dealt with numerous assholes to end up in a screaming match with anyone.

Van Buren was a Lieutenant, not Captain.

[andromeda331]

16 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

But I do like the episode, it was an interesting case. I liked Van Buren’s interrogation of the punk who sat the other church on fire early on. As I’ve said before I had mixed feelings about Mary, the killer’s daughter - she lied and her lie resulted in her dad killing the teacher but she was messed up, between her religious zealot dad and her creep guidance counselor using her situation to sleep with her, it’s not surprising she was screwed up. 

It was a very good episode. Van Buren's interrogation was great. Mary was definitely messed up thanks to her dad and doesn't realize her relationship with her guidance counselor is also messed up and wrong. But her lie lead to an innocent man's death. She admits that she did it to protect the counselor. But while she didn't know her father would kill someone. I think she knew enough that he would be fired and I think she knew her father would probably beat him up. But she still gave an innocent name. That person at the very least was going to be fired for something he didn't due and either go to jail for it or never work as a teacher again. His reputation would be destroyed. The worse turned out to be him murdered for something he didn't do.

16 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Van Buren was a Lieutenant, not Captain.

Oh, right. She runs the place and in most shows the title is captain. I keep think she's Captain. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

6 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

It was a very good episode. Van Buren's interrogation was great. Mary was definitely messed up thanks to her dad and doesn't realize her relationship with her guidance counselor is also messed up and wrong. But her lie lead to an innocent man's death. She admits that she did it to protect the counselor. But while she didn't know her father would kill someone. I think she knew enough that he would be fired and I think she knew her father would probably beat him up. But she still gave an innocent name. That person at the very least was going to be fired for something he didn't due and either go to jail for it or never work as a teacher again. His reputation would be destroyed. The worse turned out to be him murdered for something he didn't do.

Oh, right. She runs the place and in most shows the title is captain. I keep think she's Captain. 

Cragen was Captain. When Van Buren came aboard, she was Lieutenant. And she was passed over for Captain and in season 7 or 8, she was suing. And that’s when the fuckwit, Chief of Dicks cut her budget and kept “suggesting” she resign.

[andromeda331]

57 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Cragen was Captain. When Van Buren came aboard, she was Lieutenant. And she was passed over for Captain and in season 7 or 8, she was suing. And that’s when the fuckwit, Chief of Dicks cut her budget and kept “suggesting” she resign.

While I'm glad they addressed it even though it's very stupid she's not. It's really weird that she wasn't. Cragen was, the guy on Law & Order CI was, Castle, Elementary, which all take place in the same city their all captains. The Closer was different but they had Chiefs except for when Brenda was replaced by Raynor she remained a Captain. She did ask about it but was basically told by Taylor to be happy she was promoted to running Major Crimes.

[Spartan Girl]

On 6/6/2023 at 8:47 AM, Xeliou66 said:

As I’ve said before I had mixed feelings about Mary, the killer’s daughter - she lied and her lie resulted in her dad killing the teacher but she was messed up, between her religious zealot dad and her creep guidance counselor using her situation to sleep with her, it’s not surprising she was screwed up. 

 

9 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Mary was definitely messed up thanks to her dad and doesn't realize her relationship with her guidance counselor is also messed up and wrong. But her lie lead to an innocent man's death. She admits that she did it to protect the counselor. But while she didn't know her father would kill someone. I think she knew enough that he would be fired and I think she knew her father would probably beat him up. But she still gave an innocent name. That person at the very least was going to be fired for something he didn't due and either go to jail for it or never work as a teacher again. His reputation would be destroyed. The worse turned out to be him murdered for something he didn't do.

Like I said before, I would’ve felt sorrier for Mary if she appeared more guilty and horrified that she caused his death instead acting so snotty to Connie. She didn’t even come clean until everyone was gathered together, and even then all she could squeeze out was one measly tear for the guy her father killed.

[Xeliou66]

12 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

It was a very good episode. Van Buren's interrogation was great. Mary was definitely messed up thanks to her dad and doesn't realize her relationship with her guidance counselor is also messed up and wrong. But her lie lead to an innocent man's death. She admits that she did it to protect the counselor. But while she didn't know her father would kill someone. I think she knew enough that he would be fired and I think she knew her father would probably beat him up. But she still gave an innocent name. That person at the very least was going to be fired for something he didn't due and either go to jail for it or never work as a teacher again. His reputation would be destroyed. The worse turned out to be him murdered for something he didn't do.

Oh, right. She runs the place and in most shows the title is captain. I keep think she's Captain. 

 

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

 

Like I said before, I would’ve felt sorrier for Mary if she appeared more guilty and horrified that she caused his death instead acting so snotty to Connie. She didn’t even come clean until everyone was gathered together, and even then all she could squeeze out was one measly tear for the guy her father killed.

Yeah I had mixed feelings about Mary - she was snotty to Connie as you said and she didn’t seem to have much remorse for what happened, but I did feel a bit of sympathy for her giving that her dad was a zealot and her scummy guidance counselor used that to manipulate her and sleep with her. It’s an interesting episode, one of season 17’s best cases, but Melnick irritates me even more than normal in it - she was so smug and arrogant and thought she was somehow doing something good by trying to give someone a free pass for murder because he was a religious zealot. She was so damn unlikable almost all of the time, and she should’ve been disbarred back in season 13. But I do like Good Faith - it had a good investigation and an interesting legal case.

[Jaded]

Every time this thread gets bumped up with discussion going on it brings back my frustration and anger. Which I've posted about before is over the fact that the one female partner that this show has had was written the way she was.  Even though Milena Govich wasn't a favorite of mine on Conviction or L&O, she could have done well enough with material that wasn't about her character always getting dragged by people for having been a beauty queen. Her character wasn't as bad more near the end of that season when they let up on that mess more.

In a round about way it always reminded me of a character on Days of Our Lives. When she was teen she got forced into making adult videos under one of those porny type nicknames by her father. Even with other characters on the show eventually knowing the backstory of how it happened they'd still bring the fact that she appeared in the videos/etc. up whenever any scheme she was pulling got exposed.

[TakomaSnark]

Much as I loathe Detective Beauty Queen, 'The Remains Of The Day' has just the right mix of a MacGuffin, a guest star, and 'kitchen sink' twists that all really work for a compelling mystery/investigation/prosecution. 

[JudgeyMcJudgyPants]

First of all, I love this show (well the first iteration of it anyway) and watch reruns of it (and CI) constantly.

I just finished watching “Charity Case” and the timeline has always bothered me.

Sofia Archer adopts a baby followed by controversy. Then baby dies in her care after eating diet pills Sofia left on the floor.  Sofia pays her assistant to bury dead baby and get a “changeling”.  Then she goes to her diet camp for 6 weeks.  After she is back her hubby is shot by dead baby’s father outside of ice cream shop.  Baby dad makes plea deal so he can see his son.  Once he sees the “changeling” baby, he immediately realizes it’s not his son.  Connie says that CSU vacuumed the pills off the floor.   Does Sofia Archer not have a housekeeper?  How long were these pills just chillin’ on her floor?

I like this episode and love Connie’s attitude toward Sofia, who is a real piece of shit.  But the timeline of events has always bothered me.

If I’m mistaken about the timeline, feel free to correct me.  
 

 

[Xeliou66]

While season 17 is most peoples least favorite season I would say, and understandably so, the writing was weaker and Beauty Queen dragged things down, Deadlock in a truly great episode, definitely the best of the season, I watched it tonight and it’s excellent. A very intense first half where they track down Leon Vorgitch, and then a compelling second half of legal proceedings, first against Vorgitch and then against the vigilante murderer who killed him. 
Vorgitch is one of L&O’s most evil killers - he was a genuine sociopath who took pleasure in killing and promised to do it any chance he got, the way he smiled after killing the kids in the classroom was just chilling. He did deserve a death sentence and it was interesting seeing the DA’s try to find a way to make that happen. The manhunt for him was intense, Green was especially fired up, I usually like the “ticking clock” episodes and this was another good one. I liked that Vorgitch’s own mother knew he was evil and wouldn’t forgive him or make excuses for him. 
As sympathetic as Rob Purcell was, it was still wrong to kill Vorgitch in cold blood, and I thought Jack’s closing was one of his strongest, saying that Purcell didn’t believe himself to be a judge jury or executioner but acted as all three, and that murder shouldn’t be tolerated just because the person murdered was bad, if they allowed Purcell to go free they would be condoning vigilantism and that renders the whole purpose of having laws and a court system useless. Jack was spot on when he said “if you want to see insanity, let this murderer go” - a civilized society cannot condone vigilantism. He was also right when he told Purcell they didn’t have a do it yourself death penalty. 
The ending was very satisfying with the lawyer who had manipulated her client and facilitated the murder being indicted and the killer getting a lesser sentence for testifying against her - Arthur’s line at the end said it all - “now that’s justice”. I liked how Connie picked up on the lawyer being involved. Connie is probably my favorite second chair ADA, she really added a lot to the show, especially after Serena and Borgia had frequently either added nothing or detracted from it. 

Season 17 is L&O’s weakest IMO but Deadlock is a terrific episode. Really gripping from start to finish - and Jack, Connie and Green shined in it. 

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

While season 17 is most peoples least favorite season I would say, and understandably so, the writing was weaker and Beauty Queen dragged things down, Deadlock in a truly great episode, definitely the best of the season, I watched it tonight and it’s excellent. A very intense first half where they track down Leon Vorgitch, and then a compelling second half of legal proceedings, first against Vorgitch and then against the vigilante murderer who killed him. 
Vorgitch is one of L&O’s most evil killers - he was a genuine sociopath who took pleasure in killing and promised to do it any chance he got, the way he smiled after killing the kids in the classroom was just chilling. He did deserve a death sentence and it was interesting seeing the DA’s try to find a way to make that happen. The manhunt for him was intense, Green was especially fired up, I usually like the “ticking clock” episodes and this was another good one. I liked that Vorgitch’s own mother knew he was evil and wouldn’t forgive him or make excuses for him. 
As sympathetic as Rob Purcell was, it was still wrong to kill Vorgitch in cold blood, and I thought Jack’s closing was one of his strongest, saying that Purcell didn’t believe himself to be a judge jury or executioner but acted as all three, and that murder shouldn’t be tolerated just because the person murdered was bad, if they allowed Purcell to go free they would be condoning vigilantism and that renders the whole purpose of having laws and a court system useless. Jack was spot on when he said “if you want to see insanity, let this murderer go” - a civilized society cannot condone vigilantism. He was also right when he told Purcell they didn’t have a do it yourself death penalty. 
The ending was very satisfying with the lawyer who had manipulated her client and facilitated the murder being indicted and the killer getting a lesser sentence for testifying against her - Arthur’s line at the end said it all - “now that’s justice”. I liked how Connie picked up on the lawyer being involved. Connie is probably my favorite second chair ADA, she really added a lot to the show, especially after Serena and Borgia had frequently either added nothing or detracted from it. 

Season 17 is L&O’s weakest IMO but Deadlock is a terrific episode. Really gripping from start to finish - and Jack, Connie and Green shined in it. 

Such a good episode. The murderer is right up there with the worse criminals on Law & Order. Great line from Arthur at the end and Jack about letting him off would be insanity. I like that they had him killed by a vigilante. It's very easy for people to think that his murderer should get off because he was so horrible. I was surprised his mother knew her son was a psycho. It's rarely. Usually, they think their child is perfect despite all the evidence. and/or do everything to get him off. 

[Xeliou66]

8 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Such a good episode. The murderer is right up there with the worse criminals on Law & Order. Great line from Arthur at the end and Jack about letting him off would be insanity. I like that they had him killed by a vigilante. It's very easy for people to think that his murderer should get off because he was so horrible. I was surprised his mother knew her son was a psycho. It's rarely. Usually, they think their child is perfect despite all the evidence. and/or do everything to get him off. 

Yeah Vorgitch was just chilling, he killed just because he enjoyed it, he was a monster and it was interesting how his mother knew he was evil and wouldn’t forgive him for being a mass murderer. 
I thought Jack was great in the episode in how he handled prosecuting Purcell, he was spot on that Purcell didn’t deserve a pass just because the man he killed was evil and that vigilante justice was wrong and would be dangerous to society. I was glad Purcell was convicted but I was also glad Jack was able to get his sentence reduced in exchange for him turning on his slimy lawyer who was just using him to boost her career. 
I love seeing Jack and Connie work together, it’s the best thing about season 17, Connie was such an awesome addition to the show and her and Jack had a great dynamic. 

It’s a great episode, the best of season 17 IMO, season 17 just didn’t have as many stellar episodes as most seasons, but this one is terrific. 

[Spartan Girl]

On 1/5/2024 at 7:13 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I liked that Vorgitch’s own mother knew he was evil and wouldn’t forgive him or make excuses for him. 

Me too, but his stupid girlfriend helped him get away. I hope Green kept his promise that she would never see her child again.

[Xeliou66]

8 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Me too, but his stupid girlfriend helped him get away. I hope Green kept his promise that she would never see her child again.

Oh yes I hope she went to jail, given that Vorgitch killed children after she helped him get away. Fuck her.

It’s a great episode, Vorgitch is a very memorable, evil perp, and while society was definitely better off with him dead, vigilante justice can’t be tolerated. I do wonder if Purcell would’ve killed Vorgitch if his lawyer hadn’t helped him, I have a feeling the lawyer facilitated the whole thing to boost her career. I was glad they were able to get Purcell to flip on her in exchange for a lighter sentence, and I hope the lawyer went to prison for a while. As Arthur said at the end “now that’s justice”.

[ICantDoThatDave]

I watched "Family Hour" today, the one with the dysfunctional Senator's family, where he stabbed his daughter to death (who killed her mother/Senator's wife) & Nina said he stabbed himself (but had a confrontation with him earlier in the interrogation room).  The one where the ME referenced the wrong "Crime Story" book.

I just read over the thread in order to see other reactions & saw where people enjoyed Connie doing the closing (most of those posts are nearly two years old, so didn't want to quote them).  But..

I thought Connie really undermined her own closing.  Her point was that he was 6'1 180 lbs while the "attacker" was 5.5 110 lbs (I'm pulling that from - [recent, granted] memory, but could be off).

Yet Connie demonstrated in her closing just how much damage *she* could do, by stabbing that book; how threatening she appeared with that knife in her hand.  Just weird to me how Connie wielding a knife, showing how much damage she could do, was somehow shown (in the show) to be a reason to convict.

Just strained my credulity even for Law & Order (which is saying something).

 

[Xeliou66]

Season 17 is on today - Beauty Queen drags down the episodes in this season, but I love Connie on the legal side, she added a spark to the show.

Home Sweet is a decent episode, kind of predictable but with some good moments - Arthur at the sushi restaurant was great, he got that ridiculously biased judge to recuse herself from the case and then when asked if he was eating he replied “we like our fish fried”, that made me laugh. I liked seeing Arthur flex his muscles and get that judge off the case. It was an interesting stunt that Jack and the defense lawyer pulled off at the end to get the guy to admit he blew his own house up, they were lucky it worked. I liked how Connie realized the truth about the case.

Fear America is Robinette’s last appearance, and he was more different than ever in this one, accusing the police and DAs office of inventing charges against the defendant because he was Muslim. Robinette was totally unlike himself when he returned as a defense lawyer - he was like a totally different character. I did like Jack in the episode and how he fought for jurisdiction of the case, and it was an interesting plot seeing the DAs have to battle federal bureaucracy to get their conviction - Arthur throwing the US Attorney out of his office when he was accusing Jack and Connie of leaking the motive to the media was good. Jack’s closing was strong as usual. Compelling episode but Robinette was more OOC than ever, they really didn’t do a good job writing him back in when he returned.

Public Service Homicide is a decent episode, I like how Jack never stood for vigilante justice or people taking the law into their own hands and held the show accountable for encouraging it. 

[Xeliou66]

The end of season 17 was on tonight 

Jack exposing the rotten conditions at the VA hospital in open court in Over Here is a great moment for Jack, he was right and Anita was right as well that it was worth exposing, even though it didn’t help Jack’s case, he was right to do it, it needed to be exposed and it wouldn’t have been if not for Jack. It’s a good episode, I liked the ending a lot, where Jack told the perp he was sorry for his injury and his treatment but that he was sorrier for the two people he killed, and then when Arthur said he would represent Jack at the contempt hearing “for a reasonable fee” that was great. I also liked when Green told off the dude who was suing the homeless vet victim and sarcastically telling him that was a nice flag pin on his shirt.

The Family Hour has been discussed before here, it’s a compelling episode with some extremely messed up people. I’ll say again that it was kind of hard to believe that no one would notice Rodgers’ error in naming the wrong book, it seems like someone paying attention to the trial would’ve caught it, I know this was before social media and all, but still if someone figured it out the defense would have an issue to raise on appeal. I understood both Arthur’s and Jack’s position about whether or not to disclose Rodgers mistake. Connie was great as usual - I wish she had become lead prosecutor in season 18, she would’ve been better than Cutter. It was a natural progression for Jack to become DA, and it added some intrigue and drama, but there’s no denying the show lost something when Jack left the courtroom - his successors don’t come near being as strong as Jack was. It’s great that we got to see Jack return to the courtroom one final time and get one more win in his goodbye episode this season. 

Cassady just weakened season 17 and she never improved. Glad they got rid of her. But season 17 still has several good episodes. 

[andromeda331]

Over There-I'm very glad too that Jack exposed the conditions of the VA hospital. That needed to be exposed. I wish I could be surprised by how bad it was but I'm not. I agree with Jack about the injuries but having more sympathy for the people he murdered. I have a huge amount of sympathy for vets, their injuries and everything they've gone through. But murder is still murder. His victims deserved justice. 

The Family Hour-I agree about the book there's too many people who would have read one or both books and knew she made an error. People are always pointing out errors in books, TV and movies. There's no way that no one would have notice. I mean at least one person noticed the stars in the 1997 Titanic were wrong. People notice stuff.

[Xeliou66]

7 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Over There-I'm very glad too that Jack exposed the conditions of the VA hospital. That needed to be exposed. I wish I could be surprised by how bad it was but I'm not. I agree with Jack about the injuries but having more sympathy for the people he murdered. I have a huge amount of sympathy for vets, their injuries and everything they've gone through. But murder is still murder. His victims deserved justice. 

The Family Hour-I agree about the book there's too many people who would have read one or both books and knew she made an error. People are always pointing out errors in books, TV and movies. There's no way that no one would have notice. I mean at least one person noticed the stars in the 1997 Titanic were wrong. People notice stuff.

Yeah Jack absolutely did the right thing in Over Here, it was one of his many awesome moments in court. And I liked that Arthur was going to represent him at the contempt hearing “at a reasonable fee”. It’s a good episode. 

In The Family Hour it did seem like a plot hole that no one noticed Rodgers named the wrong book - the defendant himself was a big fan of crime fiction so it seems like he would’ve known, and someone paying attention to the trial would’ve noticed. Like I said, I understood where both Arthur and Jack were coming from and I’m not sure whose side I agreed with more - Jack clearly thought it would be ethical to turn over the statement while Arthur didn’t want the defendant to get off on a technicality and there’s no telling what the judge would’ve done with it. I liked how Arthur said at the end that prosecuting cases wasn’t mathematics and you couldn’t just apply a formula to each case. It’s a very compelling episode. The judge almost crying in chambers was kind of funny. I’m glad they got rid of Cassady after this one, she’s L&O’s worst main character, although she did get a solid moment when she testified that she could’ve shot the Senator if she really had it in for him. That was about her only good moment. 

[andromeda331]

On 3/7/2024 at 6:49 AM, Xeliou66 said:

In The Family Hour it did seem like a plot hole that no one noticed Rodgers named the wrong book - the defendant himself was a big fan of crime fiction so it seems like he would’ve known, and someone paying attention to the trial would’ve noticed. Like I said, I understood where both Arthur and Jack were coming from and I’m not sure whose side I agreed with more - Jack clearly thought it would be ethical to turn over the statement while Arthur didn’t want the defendant to get off on a technicality and there’s no telling what the judge would’ve done with it. I liked how Arthur said at the end that prosecuting cases wasn’t mathematics and you couldn’t just apply a formula to each case. It’s a very compelling episode. The judge almost crying in chambers was kind of funny. I’m glad they got rid of Cassady after this one, she’s L&O’s worst main character, although she did get a solid moment when she testified that she could’ve shot the Senator if she really had it in for him. That was about her only good moment. 

I don't know either. It was the wrong book if the jury used it to make it's decision should they know? But at the same time it was the right story just wrong book but by the same author. I'm not sure that makes a difference. 

I'm glad Cassidy left. I feel bad for the actress but Cassidy was terrible. I did laugh at her remark about the Senator. Yeah, if she really had it out for him she probably would shoot him or something.

[Xeliou66]

2 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I don't know either. It was the wrong book if the jury used it to make it's decision should they know? But at the same time it was the right story just wrong book but by the same author. I'm not sure that makes a difference. 

I'm glad Cassidy left. I feel bad for the actress but Cassidy was terrible. I did laugh at her remark about the Senator. Yeah, if she really had it out for him she probably would shoot him or something.

No it was by a different author, Rodgers clarified that, she got both the book and author wrong. I lean towards agreeing with Jack that the judge and jury should know, but Arthur made a good point that the judge might dismiss the case or declare a mistrial if he found out, the judge was unfit and unstable. But it did seem like the Senator would realize Rodgers got the book wrong, given that he’s a big fan of crime fiction, but maybe he didn’t want anyone to know that he knew about the book that used the trick. Still it feels like someone following the trial would recognize that. 
Yeah Cassady was the weakest L&O character in my opinion, she had no chemistry with anyone and came off as very wooden, not likable and kind of fake. The whole “detective beauty queen” back story they gave her was awful and it just didn’t feel right having such an unqualified and inexperienced detective. They made a smart move replacing her and bringing in the much more interesting Lupo.

[Xeliou66]

Good Faith was just on, and Melnick is even more infuriating than normal as I’ve said before, her argument was so stupid and she acted like she had some moral high ground the whole time. It was absurd, as Jack said, if being a religious fanatic meant you should get off with murder, give a free pass to Osama Bin Laden. Even if the guy genuinely believed his daughter was going to hell for believing in evolution, it’s no excuse to murder someone who teaches evolution, any religious fundamentalist would get a free pass for murder if that was the case, they all believe they have some divine reason for committing murder. So no it was not the “right principle”, Melnick, it was an absurd strategy designed to get headlines. Fuck Melnick, her self righteous ass should’ve been disbarred and probably thrown in jail back in season 13, I really can’t stand her. Arthur was right that the judge should be thrown off the bench for allowing the defense - that’s how absurd it was. I liked when Jack said “I’m a lapsed Catholic, care to explain why I haven’t burst into flames”?, and I honestly thought Jack should’ve gone harder after him when he questioned him at the hearing, and the guy saying that believing this made him a Christian was such bullshit, I was raised Christian and I know plenty of Christians and none of them that I know would agree with killing someone for teaching evolution - Arthur was right when he said most people of faith wouldn’t like the defendant trying to get away with murder. 
Obviously it all turned out to be moot because the guy actually killed the teacher because he believed he was having sex with the daughter, but the point still stands that Melnick’s defense was crap. 

It’s a pretty good episode, but Melnick was extremely infuriating, even more so than usual. I liked the investigation pretty good, it was better than most of the Cassady episodes, I liked Van Buren interrogating the arsonist, Van Buren could be intimidating when she wanted to be and I liked when she would do an interrogation. 

[andromeda331]

Yeah Melnick was very infuriating in Good Faith and her "reasoning" was very stupid. Fanatics, fundies and etc. do completely believe in what their doing. So do terrorists. Believing in any of those things or that evolution was wrong is not an excuse for murder. And yes the judge should have been thrown off the bench for letting in that defense. 

[Xeliou66]

8 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Yeah Melnick was very infuriating in Good Faith and her "reasoning" was very stupid. Fanatics, fundies and etc. do completely believe in what their doing. So do terrorists. Believing in any of those things or that evolution was wrong is not an excuse for murder. And yes the judge should have been thrown off the bench for letting in that defense. 

Yep, Melnick saying it’s the “right principle” was incredibly stupid, it was just an excuse for religious fundamentalists to commit murder - even if he did genuinely believe in divine retribution, it doesn’t justify murder, and while Jack got in some good questions during his cross at the hearing I thought he should’ve pushed harder against the defendant, especially when the defendant said believing this made him a Christian, because no Christian that I know would agree with committing murder because of disagreeing with someone’s beliefs, only extremist zealots would. Fuck Melnick for acting like she had some kind of moral high ground, her defense was laughable, this was hardly the first time Melnick did something infuriating and stupid - remember her closing in the City Hall shooting episode where she said that they shouldn’t bother convicting the murderer because nothing could bring the deceased back? Melnick’s ass should’ve been disbarred and jailed in season 13, and it was glorious seeing Jack finally lose it on her in the season 16 episode when she once again put her own interests above her clients. I really can’t stand Melnick, my least favorite defense attorney in the history of L&O - most defense attorneys on this show are ethical decent people even though they represent plenty of guilty people they do their jobs with ethical standards. Not Melnick, she always put herself and her own interests above everything and acted morally superior to everyone while doing it. I loathe her.

And yeah Arthur was right that the judge should be thrown off the bench for allowing the defense. I really like Connie as well in the episode, Connie was always awesome and adding her in in season 17 gave the legal side a big boost. This was one of season 17’s better investigations as there was no annoying stuff with Cassady. 

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Jack got in some good questions during his cross at the hearing I thought he should’ve pushed harder against the defendant, especially when the defendant said believing this made him a Christian, because no Christian that I know would agree with committing murder because of disagreeing with someone’s beliefs, only extremist zealots would.

Yeah he really should because as you point out most Christians would disagree with him. They don't believe in killing someone based on beliefs. Only when they act on it and majority prefer prison to murder. If the only thing that makes him a Christian is murder. He's not a Christian.

[Xeliou66]

Season 17 started on Sundance today - this is probably L&O’s weakest season due to Beauty Queen and more weaker episodes than normal, but even the weakest of L&O is still much better than most shows. And I love Connie, she was awesome right off the bat, she really added a boost to the legal side - she had a great charismatic personality and was much better than the two prior second chair ADAs, Serena and Borgia. Connie came in and really added a spark to the legal side right off the bat, the show needed a stellar second chair ADA and Connie provided that. 
It’s just a shame that the only female main detective on the Mothership was so poorly written and had the personality of a doorknob. Beauty Queen was a bust, so glad she only lasted 1 season.

There are some good episodes in season 17 - Public Service Homicide was just on, that’s a pretty good episode about the reality tv series endorsing vigilantes, Jack always hated vigilantism and never condoned people taking the law into their own hands so it was definitely fitting for him to go after the tv series for manipulating the circumstances to aid the killer and he was right to do so - vigilantism isn’t okay and the tv series was just being reckless by arming people and then having them confront abusers. A similar theme about reality tv doing anything for ratings was in the season 11 episode Swept Away: A Very Special Episode, but this one was based on shows that go after predators.

Fear America was on before that and while it’s a decent plot once again Robinette was just really nothing like the character he was during the show’s first 3 seasons. I really hate how they made him a completely different character, and he didn’t even have much consistency, here in this episode he was railing about how Muslims have no rights and were seen as automatically guilty and the government was framing his client, but in the previous season he represented the white nurse who sterilized black girls - that seems very inconsistent for Robinette’s positions. They just had no clue how to write him when he returned as a defense lawyer, which is a damn shame as he was such a good ADA. They did it much better with Jamie, she returned as a defense lawyer but her character hadn’t changed drastically, at least not until the stupidity of the revival’s premiere episode.

I’m not a big fan of Profiteer, In Vino Veritas or Release - Profiteer was very predictable and one of numerous war themed stories during those seasons and the whole stuff about the military interfering was cliched. In Vino Veritas was also very clunky and cliched and something about it just seemed off, and I didn’t think the son who committed the murder deserved a deal - yes he heard a bunch of racist crap from his dad but most people who have bigoted parents don’t become killers, Jack himself had a bigoted dad but didn’t turn out anything like him, that was noted in this episode. Release is just very dull and the defendant was convicted because he was sleazy and smug not because of any evidence, again I wasn’t sure that he was more responsible for the murder than the girl who did it. Those 3 episodes are examples of season 17 having weaker writing than most other seasons - they just didn’t pull those plots off as good as normal.

I love Deadlock though and I’ll definitely watch it when it airs tonight - it’s hands down the best season 17 episode, really intense and excellent plot.

[Xeliou66]

Deadlock is the best episode of season 17 by far IMO - it’s a great episode from start to finish. Very intense manhunt for the mass murderer in the first part, and a compelling legal case at the end with the DAs prosecuting the vigilante dad. This episode has Jack at his finest - his closing argument here was one of his best as it was a very tough case, and he was spot on that what the defense was asking was dangerous, that they wanted to give Purcell a free pass for a vigilante murder just because the man he killed was evil, and if they did they would be opening the door to lawlessness and chaos. I liked his line about how Purcell didn’t believe himself to be a judge, jury or executioner but he acted as all three, and his line to Purcell earlier about how they don’t have a do it yourself death penalty was great as well. The jury got the right verdict, and I was glad Jack was able to get Purcell to turn on his lawyer for facilitating the murder, she was slime, I doubt Purcell would’ve killed without her encouragement. It was a satisfying finish - as Arthur said at the end “now that’s justice”. I liked how Connie figured out the lawyer was involved. 
The hunt for Vorgitch was intense, I hope his stupid girlfriend went to jail for aiding him after he escaped, and his friend too, their enablement led to Vorgitch killing children. You could tell Green was tempted to kill Vorgitch after seeing the dead kids but he rightfully did not. Vorgitch was one of L&O’s most memorable and evil perps. Purcell was sympathetic but he didn’t have the right to commit a vigilante murder - no one does.

Season 17 is probably L&O’s weakest season, both because of weaker writing and Beauty Queen Cassady being terrible. But Deadlock is a genuinely outstanding episode, by far my favorite of the season. And I really liked the legal team of Jack/Connie/Arthur in season 17 - they worked well together - I like Arthur as DA for the most part and Connie was an awesome addition, she really gave the legal side a boost. 

Edited September 6 by Xeliou66