S02.E09: Death and the Dead

[raven]

Quote

As the plan continues to unfold, tensions between the group and the CRM come to a dramatic head. While some rush to save an ally, difficult truths are brought to light.

AMC+ airdate: 2021.11.21 AMC airdate: 2021.11.28

Be mindful if you participate in the Live Posting Topic - that topic will follow the show as it airs on AMC, so AMC+ viewers will be one episode ahead.  DO NOT SPOIL those who are watching on AMC.

[Mr. Sparkle]

Another decent episode, and the back half of Season 2 has been pretty good. Which makes one wonder why the first 15 were snooze-fests.

Interesting to get the motivation behind the CRM, and they're finally starting to kill off some B-level characters.

Will they stick the landing? Tune in next week and find out! 

[BasilSeal]

It was kindness to commit genocide because we did some modelling and it turns out in a couple of years time we might be a bit short of food because although we have the resources to run fleets of helicopters and hummers and the logistical capabilities to supply an entire army, we couldn't grow enough food to feed 100K people with the landmass of the entire continental united states to go at. yes, that sounds plausible.

Edited November 23, 2021 by BasilSeal

[Mr. Sparkle]

55 minutes ago, BasilSeal said:

It was kindness to commit genocide because we did some modelling and it turns out in a couple of years time we might be a bit short of food because although we have the resources to run fleets of helicopters and hummers and the logistical capabilities to supply an entire army, we couldn't grow enough food to feed 100K people with the landmass of the entire continental united states to go at. yes, that sounds plausible.

People were going to starve to death in 10-15 years!! It was totally important to kill them all horribly now!!! 

[BasilSeal]

9 hours ago, Superclam said:

People were going to starve to death in 10-15 years!! It was totally important to kill them all horribly now!!! 

It's a well known fact that in the apocalypse, all you need to supply your community of 1000's of people with fresh food is a couple of raised beds on the roof of your tower block.

There is an issue with how you'd feed 100k of people holed up in a walled city when the country around you where you might grow food is infested with flesh eating reanimated corpses. There's only so much tinned food you can use from before the fall, sooner or later you're going to have to grow your own. this is ten years into the apocalypse though. those tinned baked beans were past their sell by date a long while ago, someone must be producing food by now and it must be working.

We hear in passing that the CR are importing food from other geographic regions, coffee etc, so maybe the other colonies are over reliant on the CR supplying them with food  and the CR is relying in part on residual stocks that will eventually run down. but all they have to do is ramp up food production to fill the gap. how hard could that be?

I'd be going for horticulture, i'm not familiar with US agriculture being in the UK but a quick google tells me there are projects like this one in Nebraska which is the sort of thing you'd need but with a walker proof fence

https://nebraskapublicmedia.org/en/news/news-articles/air-park-farm-to-sustain-local-food-production/

I'd be looking to have an anaerobic digestion plant for the city's sewage and then use the used digestate to replace fertility in the cropped land. Again, if they can run and supply an army, they could do that.

Edited November 23, 2021 by BasilSeal

[Mr. Sparkle]

Yeah, this has been bothering me more than this crappy show should. Ok, I'll even buy that the model shows them running out of supplies. Is killing +100k people really the only solution? 

"You're going to starve to death in a few years. The only humane way to deal with this is to destroy your defenses and kill all of you immediately." 

"Uh, couldn't you just cut us loose and let us try to grow food? We literally live in America's bread basket."

"Nah, this is the humane way. We're doing you a favor somehow." 

[Mr. Sparkle]

4 hours ago, BasilSeal said:

Again, if they can run and supply an army, they could do that.

So much of this. Run an army, run a research facility, have electricity and telecom systems, but the only way to address the "model" is to slaughter everyone. Yep.  

[BasilSeal]

1 hour ago, Superclam said:

So much of this. Run an army, run a research facility, have electricity and telecom systems, but the only way to address the "model" is to slaughter everyone. Yep.  

How can they possibly hope to solve the problem of corpses reanimating if they can't solve the problem of feeding a few thousand people. agriculture is civilisation 101, it's absurd that this would be an issue for a group with the resources of the CRM.

When Jadis was rambling on about how the model said they might be a bit hungry 10 years in the future so it was actually a kindness to kill them all with mustard gas now rather than  actually try to grow a bit more food in the meantime, i really wanted one of the scooby gang to just shout 'oh fuck off. that's bollocks' which of course it is.

It would make a bit more sense if this was just a lame justification to cover up the CRM's  more fascist tendencies.  They've got the black uniforms, the ruthless efficiency, the police state, the fanatical storm troopers, the conducting creepy medical experiments on  prisoners the out and out eugenics, and not least of all their very own Final Solution. The CRM are basically the nazis, they even talk about wanting to build a civilisation that will last for centuries, you know, a sort of 1000 year Reich.

I think it would make more sense if this was just the CRM's version of Lebensraum, when they say they want  to build a new civilisation, they want it to be build on their terms by their people, and they've just killing the competition. Though one does wonder given that their excuse for genocide is the lamest on in history that non of their minions draw the same conclusion as these guys about being on team genocide:

I suppose what the writers are reaching for is the perennial TWD theme that there are no good people. Everyone is compromised by survival and the CRM's world view is just how it is and you either embrace this and live, or try to bethe kind of wishy washy liberal who only kills people when there's an R in the month and end up dying horribly because the only way to survive in this world is if you're one of the baddies. Or something.

[heisenberg]

11 hours ago, BasilSeal said:

because the only way to survive in this world is if you're one of the baddies. Or something.

Except for... Iris?...   😐...  🤔... 

[Smad]

23 hours ago, BasilSeal said:

When Jadis was rambling on about how the model said they might be a bit hungry 10 years in the future so it was actually a kindness to kill them all with mustard gas now rather than  actually try to grow a bit more food in the meantime, i really wanted one of the scooby gang to just shout 'oh fuck off. that's bollocks' which of course it is.

I honestly think it's propaganda. We know that the CRM employs some sort of brainwashing. How else would you get someone like Huck to go over to the dark side without her questioning or realizing that something is off? This is a woman who shot her own fellow soldiers dead in order to protect innocent lives, lets not forget. When Jadis started rambling I honestly thought she sounded like a propaganda machine. The entire time she was talking I was thinking 'what? uhm, receipts please? makes no sense. you are idiots and wow someone drank serious cool-aid.'.

The problem here is that we still haven't seen the CR. Was it the CR's idea to team up with the other communities without doing some forward thinking about long term survival? Meanwhile the CRM, once having established their own little secret society, did their own projections and decided it's not going to work? Or is it the CRM's propaganda excuse for genocide? And the real reason is nipping other big communities in the butt before they become as evolved as CR(M) and therefor a danger to CRM who clearly want to rule the world.

I really doubt the reason is resources. Last Season we saw Elizabeth in her apartment in a big city which I assume was the CR's hidden city. If you looked out the window you could see greenery everywhere. On top of and on the side of buildings. It's clear that they practice Vertical Farming in that city. Vertical Farming is on the rise even in our real world. With a few exceptions the CR can basically grow all they need within their own city. We also know that they have the entire state of New York basically locked down, with culling posts at strategic points. So with the exceptions of people inside dying and turning (and of course lurkers), they are almost done having a walker free state. That's enough room for big agriculture like corn or wheat fields. We also know they have their manufacturing down to a tee, everything from cars to weapons to medicine. They essentially are a completely self sustaining society. And we know they have more bases around other US states and Brazil. Bananas and coffee can be grown on US soil. Brazilian sugarcane in Brazil of course. They are probably even growing regular sugarcane as well. And it's useful for more than just sugar. But things like bananas or coffee are luxury items IMO. What's needed for basic survival can all be grown inside and near the CR's main city.

If they were really worried about their alliance partners becoming a drain on resources, the easiest solution would be to help them become self sustaining. Help them get their own manufacturing up and running. Explain to them how Vertical Farming works since that was clearly not happening at Campus from what little we saw of it. Apparently an entire community of academics couldn't think of something so simple. And then they also become actual trading partners.

But nah, lets genocide hundreds of thousands because a computer model told us to. I don't buy that propaganda for a second.

[BasilSeal]

45 minutes ago, Smad said:

But nah, lets genocide hundreds of thousands because a computer model told us to. I don't buy that propaganda for a second.

It doesn't stand up to the most cursory critical thinking, but then again that doesn't mean it's not what the writers are going with, i wouldn't put it past them to have simply cast around for a reason, any reason, why the CRM might kill their allies because the plot demands that they do so, lighted upon the idea  that they do it because a computer model told them to and thought, that'll do.

It would make far more sense for the given reason to be a cover for the CRM's nazi like agenda to rebuild civilisation as they see fit, but such a double bluff might be too complex for TWD. particularly TWD aimed at the YA market.

I think it's possible the writers simply see the CRM as an amoral, pragmatic organisation which is prepared to do anything to preserve civilisation, and that a straight choice between the risk of societal breakdown due to food shortages and effectively culling two thirds of the population is in some way a valid choice, above and beyond the moral implication of mass murder.

[Nashville]

On 11/22/2021 at 7:04 PM, BasilSeal said:

It was kindness to commit genocide because we did some modelling and it turns out in a couple of years time we might be a bit short of food because although we have the resources to run fleets of helicopters and hummers and the logistical capabilities to supply an entire army, we couldn't grow enough food to feed 100K people with the landmass of the entire continental united states to go at. yes, that sounds plausible.

Translation: ah, fuck ‘em.

[BasilSeal]

2 hours ago, Nashville said:

Translation: ah, fuck ‘em.

"Well i guess we *could* have fed them but we'd spent all that money on R&D for the poisoned gas factory and the storm troopers went to so much trouble finding all those shipping containers, and just think of the paperwork if we'd cancelled it...."

[Smad]

13 hours ago, BasilSeal said:

I think it's possible the writers simply see the CRM as an amoral, pragmatic organisation which is prepared to do anything to preserve civilisation, and that a straight choice between the risk of societal breakdown due to food shortages and effectively culling two thirds of the population is in some way a valid choice, above and beyond the moral implication of mass murder.

Preserving civilization starts with not genociding it. I mean Campus was full of academics and possible future Leo Bennetts but CRM razed it down anyway. And food shortages are definitely not an excuse for a community that can produce luxury items, has their resources at hand and who expanded beyond the US already. Not to mention all the hints we get about their capability to self sustain. On top of that they have an entire state they can use for agriculture.

Also if they fear their alliance partners are too reliant on them or will cause problems for them in the future (such as food shortages), then tell them to step up their game and do more themselves. Make them look into things like Vertical Farming (which the CR themselves are doing). And if they don't then threaten to withdraw from the alliance. Really rather simple. There would be no consequences for the CR(M) if they cut ties because no one knows where their city is anyway.

This is just as bs as Jadis mentioning they saved thousands of kids from those communities. Didn't they say over and over that the CR didn't let anyone in or out? That Leo was the first person in a long time that they took in? And how can you possibly extract thousands of children without anyone noticing? Nonsense.

That no one in that group even asked Jadis questions or pointed out that it's nonsense was really infuriating. Reminds me of Avengers: Infinity War where no one pointed out that Thanos' reason for the snap was just idiotic or even ask for proof. Mmm wonder if that's where the writers for this show got it from.

[Mr. Sparkle]

4 hours ago, Smad said:

Preserving civilization starts with not genociding it.

For some reason this sentence made me laugh. It does seem that not killing entire cities would be beneficial to society! 

4 hours ago, Smad said:

This is just as bs as Jadis mentioning they saved thousands of kids from those communities. Didn't they say over and over that the CR didn't let anyone in or out? That Leo was the first person in a long time that they took in? And how can you possibly extract thousands of children without anyone noticing? Nonsense.

This struck me when she said it, because wasn't it at the end of the very first episode where they destroyed the entire Campus Colony? I don't recall exactly, but I don't remember any kids being saved. 

Similarly, 10,000 kids being raised in a military government orphanage is a recipe for some angry, rebelling teenagers. 

[Smad]

1 hour ago, Superclam said:

This struck me when she said it, because wasn't it at the end of the very first episode where they destroyed the entire Campus Colony? I don't recall exactly, but I don't remember any kids being saved.

Yes they did. And it looks like the only military personnel that were present were those in the helicopters. So Elizabeth's chopper, the 4 choppers with the containers plus however many were directing the herd. That's 50 soldiers at most. Campus only had certain entries/exits. I'm pretty sure someone would notice you airlifting children out. Same if they had people undercover there, someone would have noticed missing children. Unless a fairy waved her magic wand and teleported them out just as they dropped the gas, this 'saved all the children' line is nonsense.

[BasilSeal]

6 hours ago, Smad said:

Preserving civilization starts with not genociding it. I mean Campus was full of academics and possible future Leo Bennetts but CRM razed it down anyway. And food shortages are definitely not an excuse for a community that can produce luxury items, has their resources at hand and who expanded beyond the US already. Not to mention all the hints we get about their capability to self sustain. On top of that they have an entire state they can use for agriculture.

Agree with all of this. Jadis' speech is patently nonsense, and it would be pretty poor writing if it turns out to be anything but a poor cover for some other motive, the most obvious one being that the CRM are just a bunch of Nazis.

That said, given the caliber of writing we've had in the past on this and the other shows, i wouldn't rule out what Jadis said as being the actual reasoning behind the massacres.

6 hours ago, Smad said:

This is just as bs as Jadis mentioning they saved thousands of kids from those communities. Didn't they say over and over that the CR didn't let anyone in or out? That Leo was the first person in a long time that they took in? And how can you possibly extract thousands of children without anyone noticing? Nonsense.

There were older kids studying at the facility, like it was a sort of post apocalyptic college, i wondered if they'd perhaps sent kids on educational exchanges or something, but that's reaching a bit, and if the CRM were providing further education for 10,000 kids at various facilities, why was Leo Bennet going to one such a big deal?

but yeah, Jadis's 'genocide was for your own good' speech was either a massive misdirection, or some really poor writing. i know which one i'd bet on.

[Smad]

2 hours ago, BasilSeal said:

There were older kids studying at the facility, like it was a sort of post apocalyptic college, i wondered if they'd perhaps sent kids on educational exchanges or something, but that's reaching a bit, and if the CRM were providing further education for 10,000 kids at various facilities, why was Leo Bennet going to one such a big deal?

Mason explained it. Most of the kids were directly from CR. There were some select few from Portland. It looks like at most they took kids of very high IQ and who were scientifically inclined.

And further proof that the 'saved 10k kids' thing is nonsense is Jadis' stated reason for the genocide. Adding 10k additional mouths to feed in one swoop is a lot. Granted they just genocided the other 90k so they don't need resources anymore. But you are adding 10k people to your own numbers. Unless the CR is extremely strict about reproduction, that can be a generation of baby boomers. And I thought the reason these guys are so damn strict about the number of people they let in was in part due to having a stable population number. None of this makes any sense to me.

[BasilSeal]

12 hours ago, Smad said:

And further proof that the 'saved 10k kids' thing is nonsense

Oh it's definitely nonsense, whether that would actually stop the writers is another matter.

A recurring theme in TWD has been characters having to do terrible things and make unconscionable choices in order to survive, and this has been extended to the survivor communities. From Negan excusing his behaviour by saying this is how i have to be in order to keep things together and keep everyone safe to Virginia saying the Pioneers are doing bad things in order to secure a future.

Jadis' argument is an extension of this, it takes previous justifications to their ultimate conclusion, the problem is that it doesn't make logical sense within the context of the story, it falls apart under the lightest of scrutiny,

By rights it ought to be revealed as a misdirection, past experience of TWD informs us that it may not be though, it wouldn't be the first time they've gone with poorly thought out plot lines that don't hold up to scrutiny, although i do think this is potentially the worst one yet.

[Smad]

On 11/26/2021 at 11:31 AM, BasilSeal said:

Jadis' argument is an extension of this, it takes previous justifications to their ultimate conclusion, the problem is that it doesn't make logical sense within the context of the story, it falls apart under the lightest of scrutiny,

There has to be more to it. I mean we know from last Season that Elizabeth doesn't really like what she's doing (GENOCIDE) but keeps herself going with the 'look at all we have' method. We have seen a soldier who participated (Barka) in the genocide show some humanity by doubting what they were doing.

My problem here is simple. How has someone like Elizabeth not tried to form a rebellion and put a stop to this? The CRM doesn't have infinite numbers. The CR society has 200k souls, give or take, and the majority are most likely not CRM. So it's not like if you try to stage a coup there will be massive reinforcements coming from other cities. There was even the possibility to collude with Omaha/Campus/Portland and get them to train their own soldiers that you can later use in a coup. And if someone else from CRM came by and asked why they needed all those soldiers, just excuse it with 'in case human marauders come by' or 'in case a large herd comes our way'.

What would even be the tragedy or risk in taking out Major General Beale himself? Sure he probably has loyal minions but so what? Kill him and expose what he was doing. Expose it to the CR civilians and CRM soldiers. There are probably more Barka like soldiers and some may have even come from those communities or have family there. Others might be perfectly fine with genocide out of selfishness but not everyone will be. But I really don't see what the problem is when it's the easy solution to just off Beale and whoever else spearheaded this.

[BasilSeal]

To paraphrase Voltaire: "Anyone who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

36 minutes ago, Smad said:

There has to be more to it. I mean we know from last Season that Elizabeth doesn't really like what she's doing (GENOCIDE) but keeps herself going with the 'look at all we have' method. We have seen a soldier who participated (Barka) in the genocide show some humanity by doubting what they were doing.

I think elizabeth has enough morality to know what the CRM is doing is wrong but has somehow convinced herself that it needs to be done. Which begs the question whether she had bought into the absurd reasoning given by Jadis. or whether there is some more  logical reason for their action, such as they're all a bunch or power crazy Nazis. We could ask why does everyone go along with them if this is the case? but then again people went along with the Nazis.

I don't think it's inconceivable that people would go along with the murderous plans of the CRM, people would need credible arguments to bring them to this place though and i don't think what we've heard from Jadis really cut it in this respect.

[OoohMaggie]

Yaaaaayyyyy, Iris getting a ‘Glasgow Kiss’ 😁, that was certainly worth the wait.

I thought the gassed colony was part of the CR, Jadis seemed to state otherwise 🤔

IF, we ever see hide or hair of the film, I hope the deliciously evil officer Stokes plays a large part, I’ve seen a few clips from the finale and I’m positively looking forward to it 😱

[Mr. Sparkle]

51 minutes ago, OoohMaggie said:

Yaaaaayyyyy, Iris getting a ‘Glasgow Kiss’ 😁, that was certainly worth the wait.

Did I miss that? Do I have to watch this again? 

51 minutes ago, OoohMaggie said:

IF, we ever see hide or hair of the film, I hope the deliciously evil officer Stokes plays a large part, I’ve seen a few clips from the finale and I’m positively looking forward to it 😱

I fully agree that Jadis was the best part of both seasons, which is not something I thought I would say. 

If this film ever comes out, I'm flying over to England to watch it with you & @BasilSeal.

[BasilSeal]

3 hours ago, Superclam said:

I fully agree that Jadis was the best part of both seasons, which is not something I thought I would say. 

If this film ever comes out, I'm flying over to England to watch it with you & @BasilSeal.

by the time the film comes out, they may have invented teleportation.

I've just read on another forum the description of Iris and Huck's acting as being like 'a couple of reluctant emos who've been forced to take part in the school play.' Thought i'd share that.

[OoohMaggie]

4 hours ago, Superclam said:

Did I miss that? Do I have to watch this again? 

It’s at 0:23, I think I’ll cut it down and use it as my screensaver 😂

 

 

4 hours ago, Superclam said:

f this film ever comes out, I'm flying over to England to watch it with you & @BasilSeal.

I’ll make up the guest rooms, I haven’t actually built the new house yet but I think it’ll be fine 🙄

[Mr. Sparkle]

Is that a Glasgow kiss? In the U.S. we call that a "head butt to the nose." I was thinking "Glasgow Smile." 

Two classics here: nobody noticed the walkers until they're right on them, and Iris immediately recovers from her head butt/Glasgow kiss without any blood or swelling. 

1 hour ago, BasilSeal said:

I've just read on another forum the description of Iris and Huck's acting as being like 'a couple of reluctant emos who've been forced to take part in the school play.'

Huck's a much better actor than Iris, but the way she delivers her lines is awful until the very end. I'll give her credit for consistency. 

[rmontro]

I didn't realize that the walker that Hope bashed in the doorway was Dr . Lyla Belshaw, and that's why they kept showing all those flashback clips of her during the scuffle.  Talking Dead to the rescue again, it explains something I didn't pick up during the show.

I just didn't buy Percy and Iris as a couple, sorry.

Only one more episode to go!  This show has gotten more interesting that I ever thought it would.  Still no sign of Rick though.  When Jadis was talking on the phone with her boss, and the camera was creeping up behind her, I thought she was going to turn around and there would be Rick.  Nope.

Edited November 30, 2021 by rmontro

[OoohMaggie]

16 hours ago, Superclam said:

Two classics here: nobody noticed the walkers until they're right on them, and Iris immediately recovers from her head butt/Glasgow kiss without any blood or swelling. 

Must be because of the difficulty factor 🤕,  it was sort of back and to the side, Beale did well.

Heres a proper one from a Glaswegian, Rab C Nesbit, one of the funniest shows ever out of the U.K.

 

[natyxg]

So, I'm one episode away from finishing this show, and I gotta say I've found this season very... annoying. Now let's see, the CRM are literally military with everything that implies. They have the money, the equipment, the training, the numbers and they are ruthless. Yet this group of children and geeky scientists are supposed to take them on and I'm supposed to be cheering for that? I spend episode after episode wondering why everyone is so stupid! Now, I get that the military killed at bunch of people and the CRM must be taken down and stopped and whatever. Fine. But at least speak of the whole thing truthfully: it's an almost impossible situation, it's a suicide mission, they're trying because they MUST, but they're not sure if they will win, etc. At least show THAT. But no. I've spent the whole season rooting for Iris to die because she's so obviously an idiot teenager thinking they will take down the CRM, but instead of laughing at her face the grown ups actually listen to her! I don't even care if they win or not, if they were to win it should've been seen as a miracle.

Of course, there is also the fact that the CRM does have a point, which I at least appreciate because it makes the story more interesting, and I wish the idiots would've been more torn about leaving/destroying the facility.... which is that they are doing important work that might save the world, and at the research center they had everything they could dream of. The chances of finding some other laboratory with all the equipment they had there and all the comforts from there are, or should be, slim.

So anyway, it's not about them winning in the end or something, like it always happens in every show, but about at least being more realistic about what the CRM's threat really is. The way it was presented, the whole thing sounds as ridiculous to me as some random group of teenagers from my town deciding they are going to take on the army or something.

Finally, I've spent the season quite disturbed by how attractive I've been finding evil Jadis.

[borealis]

@natyxg Yes! I wanted this to end with Iris as a shackled zombie, snapping at a teasing Jadis doing some techno rave dance moves in front of her! And Huck at the spiked punch bowl with a nice buzz. (Oh-- spoiler alert: it doesn't end that way.)

I felt like the entire show was WRITTEN by a bunch of douchey 19 year old Irises! I mean, REALLY?!?