S02.E22: Becoming, Part 2

[Halting Hex]

3 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Because "grab Dru and runnnnn far away" would be meaningless if Angel succeded with Acathla thus creating his demonic Brave New World.

Eh, if he's taken the DeSoto down to Brazil before Dru recovers, I doubt her long-distance adoration for Angel having done the whole world-sucking thing would be an immediate distraction.  The oodles of local samba dancers screaming in eternal agony would probably keep her occupied for a good long while.

And "Daddy" would be too swarmed over by local Undead American groupies to go hunt Drusilla up, I wouldn't think.

3 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Being obsessed with getting his girlfriend back doesn't mean Spike can't truly enjoy some temptations and luxuries our wicked world provides.

But just because Spike might enjoy a diversion or three, it hardly means that regaining Drusilla isn't his primary motivation.  If Dru had never existed and Spike was besotted with Angel (as in all the sire/childe homofic that was sprouting at this time), would he have turned on him just to save dog racing? I doubt it.  And the same for everything else he name-checks here.

The only motivation that truly impels Spike to act (and in such a dramatic "ally-with-the-Slayer" way) is "I want Dru back."  Plain and simple, IMO.  Everything else is window dressing, I say.

[Halting Hex]

Checking out a video about the S2 arc, I'm reminded that what makes Angel's ultimate fate a punishment is that he has his soul when he's sucked into Acathla's dimension, since after all it is only human souls that "suffer eternally" there.  (Which is why the soulless Angel wanted the whole planet moved there, in the first place.)

And why does Angel have That Pesky Soul?  Because Buffy found the disk with the Ritual of Restoration, the ritual that Jenny gave her life to translate and record.  So, essentially, Angel's torment is Jenny's revenge.  (Even more so if what Willow felt "go through [her]" was Jenny's spirit, although that's unclear.)  You go, Jana!  Let the bastard's pain "be eternal, as ours is", to quote Enyos.

Spoiler

Unfortunately it's just a summer, although it was allegedly centuries for Dear Forehead.  But still, better than nothing, I suppose.

[lembergwatcher]

On 4/10/2019 at 5:06 AM, Halting Hex said:

So, essentially, Angel's torment is Jenny's revenge.  (Even more so if what Willow felt "go through [her]" was Jenny's spirit, although that's unclear.)  You go, Jana!

Well, good to know there are people out there who view the whole sucking Angel into hell dimension thing as something well-deserved, not a tragic story of unintended consequences or whatever.

I take it the torture Giles went through is some sort of payback for Rupert's betrayal of his ex-lover and siding with Buffy in trying to save Angel's ass. Bad thing there appears to be no true Jenny's revenge on Buffy whose gross neglect of duty got Janna killed in the first place. Another bad thing is that Kendra's tragic death wasn't avenged 

Spoiler

at all (as it turned out eventually).

I always wondered where the hell the Clan Kalderash was after Angel killed both Enyos and Janna? Weren't they supposed to avenge the deaths of their fellow tribesmen? Come on, they've worshipped vengeance for decades with Enyos being the high priest of the Revenge Cult...

Spoiler

Honestly I expected a group of gypsy vigilantes to show up either in Sunnydale in Buffy's season 3 or in LA in Angel's season 1 or 2. Something tells me that would have been much bigger challenge than Wilkins and Wolfram&Hart combined. 

[lembergwatcher]

Well, I understand why Xander's asking that question. Although I doubt he and Will continued to call each other every night and talk about the things they did all day after Xander started dating Queen Bitch of Sunnydale High and Willow fell for The-Guy-Whose-Name-I-Refuse-To-Type charms.

[Halting Hex]

1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said:

The-Guy-Whose-Name-I-Refuse-To-Type

That's a lot of effort to avoid typing two letters, lol.  You might even say it's a doozy.  But as long as you don't end up feeling like a Bozo, whatever makes you happy, I suppose.

Spoiler

(Do you turn off Anne when Buffy starts talking about how she wants a tea cozy?  Just wondering.)

1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said:

Well, I understand why Xander's asking that question. Although I doubt he and Will continued to call each other every night and talk about the things they did all day

Well, I doubt your doubt.  There's no reason for Xander to be possibly mourning the loss of something he and Willow do if they don't actually do it any more, after all.  And it would be a truly bizarre way to try to connect with Willow in her coma if he was just making stuff up.

1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said:

after Xander started dating Queen Bitch of Sunnydale High

Except that Willow and Cordelia are friends (of a sort) by now.  Willow helps Cordy with her homework (Phases), they hang out and talk at the Bronze (Phases, Passion), and they even have intellectual debates at school (Go Fish).  Willow may have had a bad reaction to learning about X/C in Innocence, and there certainly was an amount of spell-inflamed jealousy on display in BB&B, but by this point, Willow is comfortable enough with Xander and Cordelia's dating that she's teasing him about their make-out sessions (I Only Have Eyes for You).  And I really have trouble with the idea that Cordelia gets teary-eyed at the sight of Willow in the coma…but Willow's so resentful about Cordelia that it ruins her relationship with her best friend.  That's a little more petty than I like my Willow.  But JMO.

1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said:

and Willow fell for [Oz]

And Xander may be protective of Willow, but he hasn't shut out Oz, either.  Not even after Wolf-Boy sucker-punched him almost at random in BB&B.  He hasn't frozen Willow out of his personal life.  I think he can manage a few phone calls, regardless of his thoughts on Woz.

Different subject:  when Buffy slays the vamp in front of Joyce, she says "Mom, I'm a Vampire Slayer."  (Personally, I think Buffy should say "THE Vampire Slayer", and proclaim her unique identity, but Kendra's corpse is barely cool at the morgue right now, so I can see Buffy thinking it's too soon to re-assert her primacy.

Spoiler

Which it would be, given what's just happened to Faith, back in Boston, but of course nobody in Sunnydale knows about that, as yet

)  And later on, Joyce learns that Kendra was a Slayer, too…

So, I'm wondering, exactly how many Slayers does Joyce think there are?  Is Willow a Slayer? Is Cordelia?  Is this why Buffy's always getting into trouble, all these irresponsible girls dragging her Buffy into their dangerous activities?  (She might have expected it of Willow, because, you know…Jewish, but Cordelia's from such a nice family…) Is that what happened at Hemery?  Was Cassandra a Slayer, too?

I confess, I got the germ of an idea for a fic where Cordelia spends the summer (

Spoiler

pre-Las Palmas, of course

) pretending to be a Slayer, so that Joyce doesn't worry so much about Buffy (since there are hundreds of Slayers out there Buffy might be hanging out with, don't fret, we've got each others' backs)…but that would probably just decline into Cordy/Joyce 'shipping and I don't know if even I'm such an ardent proponent of Cordy-slash to go there, lol.

Edited May 3, 2019 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

3 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

So, I'm wondering, exactly how many Slayers does Joyce think there are?

I'm not sure that thought even crossed Joyce's mind since she desperately wanted to get her beloved Buffy out of trouble in the first place.

[lembergwatcher]

3 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

She might have expected it of Willow, because, you know…Jewish

Does Joyce even know Willow is Jewish? IIRC Rosenberg means "mountain of roses" in German. Since one of the Nazi Party's top ideologists was Alfred Ernst Rosenberg (an Estonian-born German), one doesn't have to be Jewish to have that particular last name.  Just like I don't think Buffy stressed that fact or even gave meaning to it. Willow doesn't seem to be the only Jewish student of Sunnydale High, after all.

[Halting Hex]

Well, of course the idea that Willow might be considered an "undesirable" friend by Joyce or Xander's family because of her heritage is merely my joking at historic anti-Semitism; there's absolutely nothing to support it in the canon.  To the contrary, I should think that Xander might hesitate about inviting Willow over for dinner in Out of Mind, Out of Sight if his mom is likely to castigate him for bringing a cheapskate moocher over to scarf down the Harrises' hard-earned Chinese food.  I'm sure Willow is no more unwelcome there than she is getting Joyce to hand-deliver her the juice in Killed by Death.

That said, I doubt Willow's been hiding her Magen David under a bushel or anything.   She openly tells Xander that her egg is Jewish in BE and if Joyce has interacted with Ira Rosenberg at all, I think she's fairly clued in about Willow's religion.  No, Joyce apparently hasn't invited Willow over to catch A Charlie Brown Christmas on the downlow…but can Buffy even do the Snoopy dance, anyway?

[lembergwatcher]

Even though Becoming, Part 2 was written/directed by Joss W before he started to suck, I can't escape the feeling he had no other way to make the plot work in the desirable direction, but to use some cliches/deus ex machinas. Four things bother me the most.

1. Oz magically appearing next to Willow in a hospital bed "just in time" for no reason. Because God forbid Willow opens her eyes and realises the truth;
2. Angel who used to not give a damn about Spike and what he has to say, suddenly sees his crippled grandchilde's point considering Giles twice in a row. Yes, Spikey does have a point, but why should Angel, the alpha male among the remnants of Scourge of Europe, listen to him?
3. Some measly minion turning out to be too strong for Buffy to deal with in one fell swoop thus allowing Angel to take the sword out of Acathla;
4. Bangel duel in the mansion's atrium taking place in the daylight and yet Angel magically avoids stepping out of the shadows/turning into dust.

And what is that brief exchange between Buffy and Whistler supposed to mean?

Quote

Buffy: I can deal. I got nothing left to lose.

Whistler: Wrong, kid. You got one more thing.

Buffy's got "nothing" to lose? Really? Well, maybe I miss something here, but does Willow (!) constitute as "nothing" too? If so, the whole Buffy/Willow "friendship of the ages" hype (one of the most important parts of the storyline, mind you) is a big joke...

Edited May 27, 2019 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

What, Willow's coma (and possible long-term spinal damage, to judge by that wheelchair) isn't enough for you?  You need her in the ground before you'll let Angel tick the "hurt Buffy by hurting her friends" box, is that it?  A little harsh, I'd say.

Buffy's seen her friends injured, abducted and tortured (well, she hasn't seen Giles's fate, per se, but Spike told her about it); she's sold out her Slayer honor by making a deal to let Kendra's killer walk; she's been expelled from school and kicked out of her own home.  I think it's fair to say that all she's clinging to are her romantic memories of her and Angel…which, sending him to (a) Hell with his soul should shatter the last of her psychic comforts.  I've not much use for Whistler or that scene, but I'm hard-pressed to argue with him there.

Yes, Oz's "timely" arrival is a touch convenient, I'll give you. But OTOH it's specified that Xander did call him and bring him up to date, so Oz is hardly showing up out of the blue, and apparently it's been a bit of time, to judge from the action elsewhere.  One might almost ask what kept Wolf-Boy away for so long.  Maybe he had to finish up the band's last set, or else Xander wouldn't have gotten past "pass trig" in his Confessional to the Comatose?

As for Angel listening to Spike, well, he's frustrated, so he's open to new ideas.  Especially as Drusilla no doubt got all ecstatic over her part in Spike's plan.

The unusually-tenacious henchvamp is a bit of a convenience (don't want to have Buffy walking all over Spike's big moment, after all), but OTOH apparently this guy was in Angel's inner circle, the best of the "recruiting" mentioned in Go Fish.  It's not too surprising he'd be above average, I guess.

18 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Bangel duel in the mansion's atrium

I believe you mean courtyard (the atrium would be indoors, no?*) and we have previously established that it's just barely past dawn (Buffy specified the timing of her assault when she was on the phone with Xander earlier ["I'm gonna hit it come daybreak"], the lighting in the Buffy/Xander "kick his ass" scene supports this, and I think we get an establishing shot of the sunrise as well) and that the courtyard is recessed below ground level (as shown in IOHEFY, and even the shots of Drusilla and Angel descending the stairs in Part 1, here) and so doesn't get fully illuminated until the sun is much higher in the sky.  

Spoiler

As later seen when Spike sleeps it off outside, in Lovers Walk.

Again, convenient for the plot, I grant you, but this was always fully established as part of the set.  It's not as if they pulled it out of their ass just for the fight.

*-no, it wouldn't; dictionary.com specifies an atrium as being an "open-roofed entrance hall or central court".  So both I and the transcriptionist (AleXander Thompson) are wrong here:  that's no "entrance hall", but OTOH the area inside the house proper doesn't have an open roof.  Huh.  And what do we call those multi-story entrance halls that I've been misusing "atrium" to describe as, then? Are they just fancy lobbies? Man, I suck at architecture, apparently. 😞

[lembergwatcher]

4 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

it's specified that Xander did call him and bring him up to date, so Oz is hardly showing up out of the blue, and apparently it's been a bit of time, to judge from the action elsewhere.

Of course, he did. My problem with the whole scene is not the wolfboy's appearance at the hospital per se, but him entering "at just the right time" of Willow's awakening and not, say, 15 or 20 minutes later. Why wasn't he stuck in the traffic jam or surrounded by groupies demanding autograph?.. Sigh... 

[Halting Hex]

On 5/27/2019 at 10:59 PM, Halting Hex said:

The unusually-tenacious henchvamp is a bit of a convenience

But we do get a reaction shot of him when Dru jumps on Spike, and I was wondering…have we seen this guy before?  Is this in fact the return of Lean Boy (ugh, Greenwalt and his horrible naming skills) from School Hard?  Remember, he was not only one of the Anointed's top men, but he survives the episode;  he makes it back from the school to claim that Spike should "lay down [his] life" for his failure and Spike only knocks him out before he sends the A1 to sunburnt fate.  

The makeup does look familiar, but IMDb doesn't credit Andrew Palmer with another appearance or anything.  Still, perhaps as the henchvamp has as many lines as Kendra's corpse, maybe he got left out of the credits?  I might be completely wrong (I've been too lazy to compare screenshots) but for the moment it's a fanwank that works for me.  JMO.

[lembergwatcher]

Overall, one of Buffy's best and at the same time divisive episodes, I must say. One of those which message becomes kinda twisted time and time again. It never ceases to amaze me how "Buffy sends her beloved Angel to hell in order to save the world from becoming some demon-infested shithole" turned into "Xander sends Angel to hell" (statement I came upon even in many Xander-centric/pro-Xander pieces of fanfiction). Or how the simple fact of Xander helping saving everyone, incl. Buffy, Willow and Giles themselves, is twisted into Xander "betraying" everybody. Because somehow no matter how many people Angel killed and what kind of threat he posed to everyone around him, Bangel bliss is the most important thing in the world!  

Edited September 11, 2020 by lembergwatcher

[watcher1006]

"Xander sends Angel to hell?" I've said it before but I'll just repeat myself. I think Xander had the most sensible, clear-minded approach to the whole Angel problem, whether or not it was colored by his own jealousy towards Angel and Buffy. And I've always thought that Giles should have backed him up.

[lembergwatcher]

7 hours ago, watcher1006 said:

I think Xander had the most sensible, clear-minded approach to the whole Angel problem

Well, he had. But to legions of Angel & especially Buffy/Angel afficionados words like "clear-minded approach" are meaningless. Angel killed lots of people, including the gang's father figure's girlfriend, tried to end the world twice and attacked everyone Xander held dear and almost killed Xander himself. But of course, the boy did what he did because of "jealousy". And even though Xander wasn't there the moment Acathla swallowed Dear Forehead, that doesn't seem to matter to Xander-haters...  

[Loandbehold]

On top of this, Buffy, in just the prior episode had tried to fight Angelus in a delaying action to give Willow time to complete the re-ensoulment spell. That resulted in Kendra being killed, Giles being kidnapped, Willow almost being killed, and Xander having his arm broken. He doesn't want Buffy to do the same thing and risk Acathala sending the world into hell since he has no idea when or even if Willow will successfully complete the spell. Even if being jealous of Angel also played a role in his decision Xander's action was justified in my book.

[Halting Hex]

Angel seals his fate the moment he gets the sword out of Acathla.  Hard to see how "Willow's trying the spell again; just stall until he's better" would have helped Buffy stop that, exactly.

All Willow accomplished, with the help of whatever went through her (Jenny's spirit? The elder woman's? Angel's own human soul? Something else?  Tune in next season and see, I guess.  

Spoiler

Or not; just faking out the (hypothetical) newbies here, mwah-hah-hah…

) was to prevent Buffy's decapitating Angel at that one particular moment.  But as Buffy sends him to Acathla's Hell within the next five minutes, anyway, it's pretty much "a difference that makes no difference is no difference" territory, I'd say.  Dead Boy is dead meat.  End of story.

Spoiler

Except for Angel coming back a lousy three episodes later and messing up Buffy's love life and casting a never-ending shadow, and getting a fucking spinoff, and causing Cordelia's death…grrr.

But we can't know any of that at this point.  Let me dream, okay.  Just as I would have had I watched this live in 1998…and somehow managed to avoid learning about Joss going on record that very night to reassure the 'shippers that "Don't worry, Angel's fine, he'll be back, and he's getting his own series!"  That very night.  FFS.

 

Edited September 12, 2020 by Halting Hex

[Loandbehold]

20 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Angel seals his fate the moment he gets the sword out of Acathla.  Hard to see how "Willow's trying the spell again; just stall until he's better" would have helped Buffy stop that, exactly.

But, at the time Xander tells Buffy to "kick his ass" neither one knows Angel has already pulled the sword from Acathla. So, I maintain he had good reasons when he sees her to give her that message rather than tell Buffy that Willow's trying the spell again. 

[Halting Hex]

6 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

Angel has already pulled the sword from Acathla.

No, actually he hasn't.  That's why he says "I don't have time for this now" when Buffy appears.  And then Spike's assault with the andiron knocks Angel and his plans for a further loop.

It's only once his allies (the Unusually-Tenacious Henchvamp v. Buffy, Drusilla v. Spike) have given Angel enough time to clear his head that he's able to almost dive for Acathla and finally pull that sword.  By this time we're late enough in the fight that Drusilla's being excited at Angel's accomplishment is the distraction that Spike needs to defeat her.

(None of which contradicts your point.  It's just that these are the sort of "i"s I can't help but dot.  My apologies.)

[Loandbehold]

3 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

It's just that these are the sort of "i"s I can't help but dot.  My apologies.

No need to apologize. I appreciate being informed when I'm wrong. It often results in me rewatching to repair the gaps in the swiss cheese that is what passes for my memory. And, it's certainly not a chore to watch the Becoming episodes. 

Spoiler

Now, if it my mistake involves "Storyteller," I'll happily continue wallowing in ignorance rather than subjecting myself to that abomination of an episode again.

 

[watcher1006]

But anyway, wherever Angel may have been in his plan at the point Xander intercepts Buffy seems immaterial to me. They couldn't know in any case and Angel HAD to be stopped. The last thing anyone rational would have wanted is for Buffy to have held back her full effort fighting Angel hoping that Willow's spell would work in time.

[Joe Hellandback]

7 hours ago, watcher1006 said:

But anyway, wherever Angel may have been in his plan at the point Xander intercepts Buffy seems immaterial to me. They couldn't know in any case and Angel HAD to be stopped. The last thing anyone rational would have wanted is for Buffy to have held back her full effort fighting Angel hoping that Willow's spell would work in time.

I think you'll find few Bangel fans are that rational?

[Halting Hex]

Let's face it, I probably don't give Oz as much credit as he's due.  But not only does he raise practical points here ("Did I mention that I didn't take Latin?"), but he has the sense to lay the book flat on the table so it stays open, instead of needing to mark his place with his thumb, as I complained about Giles doing in the Part 1 thread.

Indeed, I think he even outdoes the G-Man on pronunciation;  where Giles went "Quod perditum", Oz says "Per-DEE-tum".  Latin is supposed to favor open vowel sounds, right?

(Disclaimer:  I didn't take Latin, either.)

***********************************

Georgia Corsby's Aaron wonders if anybody at the school is going to find it odd that Xander, Willow and Giles all got injured over the same weekend.

But of course he has the timeline wrong; most of the two-parter takes place in a single school-night.

(The Immolation-a-Gram appears during the gang's exam and Buffy goes to fight Angel that night, leaving the Library vulnerable to invasion.  Willow spends most of the night in a coma, but she's up and ready to do the spell at dawn, when Buffy and Xander hit the Crawford Street mansion.)

So Giles got that gash on his forehead, Xander broke his wrist, and Willow landed in a wheelchair, all on the same (let's say) Tuesday night.  What's the gang's explanation for this, exactly?

I wonder if Larry thought that the football team held a nerd-bashing and he wasn't invited?  Did he worry if they'd found out his secret?  Do they know about Xander and assume Larry's dating him?  Huh.

(Buffy must get expelled from school at 4.00 A.M. or so.  Man, the cops must have buried Snyder in paperwork for him to still be there at such an hour.)

Edited June 18, 2021 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

14 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Georgia Corsby's Aaron wonders if anybody at the school is going to find it odd that Xander, Willow and Giles all got injured over the same weekend.

Since they don't find it odd that someone dies on the school property almost on a weekly basis why should they pay attention to Xander's hand or Willow's wheelchair? Besides, shouldn't everyone find it a little bit more odd that Mr. Giles who's in his early forties spends too much time with three minors inside the school library?

I wonder what makes Snyder think expelling Buffy Summers is a "good news" for Mayor?

[Halting Hex]

It's been noted that Angel should probably have figured out that it's his blood that's needed since, after all, the spell says so.  "Sanguimentum meum."  

I mean, as noted, I took as much Latin as Oz did, but I'd like to think I'm sanguine enough about sangria and other sanguinary-related words that the penny would eventually drop, no Drusilla performances needed.

I guess this means that Angel shouldn't have zinged Spike about being a poor student last episode.  The dunce cap doesn't fall far from the tree, it seems.

********************************

Alley Box was all, "well, he just has to cut his hand again, right?" when the vortex opened, but of course it's not that simple.  Angel is bound to Acathla now, as the Master was to the Hellmouth;  that was the whole reason he had to use his blood, specifically, to be the "worthy" vampire with that mystic bond.

As Whistler says, "one blow will send them both back to Hell", so that tracks.  Can't use half-measures now.

*******************************

Willow's hair and lips do look a lot better in the final scene than they did in the hospital.  Did Cordy actually give her that makeover?  Awww.

And I see that Xander's wearing a different outfit in the final scene than he did while rescuing Giles.  Which, considering he needed to run Giles to the hospital (presumably) and then they went back to check out the Mansion (as Giles relates) and yet they've still apparently made it to school in time for the 8.20 AM opening bell, means he must have worked a quick-change in there somewhere.

Cordelia must be rubbing off on him, too.  No rest for the fashionable, it seems.

[Halting Hex]

Quote

JOYCE:  Are you sure that you're a vampire slayer, Honey?

I don't esteem the Spike/Joyce "awkward sitting" scene nearly as much as others do, but I have to give Spike some points, I suppose.

I mean, from his perspective, here he is, patiently humoring a human, who assaulted (and threatened) him the last time they met, while he's waiting for Buffy to get off the phone.  But he not only tolerates Joyce, when Buffy tells him about Dru killing Kendra, his instinct is to include Joyce in the "good news".  As I've written above, he looks at Joyce to include her in the moment.

Except that…it doesn't last.  By the time we get to this part of the conversation, Spike's so sick of Joyce's inane interruptions that he flinches when she opens her gob, and later he turns and glares at her.

Joyce Summers:  so annoying even Spike can't stand her.

Spoiler

Which of course undercuts later efforts to portray Spike and Joyce as best pals, and thus use Joyce to fluff Spike's "redemption".  Honestly, she bores him just as much by nattering about the amphorae in Crush as she does here;  he's just gotten better at hiding it.

Quote

JOYCE:  You walk out of this house, don't even think about coming back!

Okay, so Joyce is acting a little overly here, I think we can agree.

But honestly, Buffy…would it kill you to close the door behind you once you go?  What, you want Joyce to have to heat the whole outdoors, is that it?  A little respect, kid.

Quote

BUFFY (on the phone to Willow):  You wouldn't believe me if I told you.

Wait, what?  So we're just holding back key pieces of information from the gang now, is that it, Ms. Buffy?

Okay, fine…but in that case, I better not hear any complaining about Xander not telling you all his info, I'm just saying.

***************************************

Not from the episode:

Quote

SNYDER (into phone):  It's Snyder.  Tell the Mayor I have good news.

AIDE (on phone):  It's four in the fucking morning, asshole.  Call back during business hours, you jerk.

 

Edited August 15, 2021 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

18 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Wait, what?  So we're just holding back key pieces of information from the gang now, is that it, Ms. Buffy?

Okay, fine…but in that case, I better not hear any complaining about Xander not telling you all his info, I'm just saying.

Remember, it's ok when Buffy does it.

[Halting Hex]

Quote

XANDER:  You've always been…I love you.

Willow stirs.  A hopeful look crosses Xander's face.

WILLOW (weakly): Oz?

Xander is bummed.

OZ (enters):  It's me, baby.

You know, Xan, if you hadn't spent so long going on about passing trig…

Or you could have "forgotten" to call Oz.  If you're gonna open your heart to a girl, commit to it.

He who hesitates…ends up smooching Cordelia.  Which doesn't seem too bad on the punishment scale, I grant you, but still.

Edited September 12, 2021 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

On 9/13/2021 at 2:50 AM, Halting Hex said:

Xander is bummed.

OZ (enters):  It's me, baby.

I believe Oz entered earlier and heard everything. 

Spoiler

Hence, the decision to repeat the year at SHS.

 

On 9/13/2021 at 2:50 AM, Halting Hex said:

Or you could have "forgotten" to call Oz.

Xander could have paid that werewolf hunter guy (what's his name?) from Phases and persuaded him to add a new item to his wolfie teeth collection... 

[illdoc]

5 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

that werewolf hunter guy (what's his name?)

Cain, I believe. Not sure if he had a first name (or if that was his first name)

[Halting Hex]

One of the few small marks I make against this one (besides Whistler and…Whistler) is how Joss is so bent on moving his chess pieces around the board, he makes several logical fails.  (Such as Snyder's 4.00 a.m. phone call to whomever, as mentioned above.)

I mean, how does Spike (who's supposed to be wheelchair-bound) get away from the Crawford Street Mansion for what has to be several hours without Drusilla, at least, noticing?  Why does Buffy bring him to her house if she wants to "get off of the street" when there's a nice private cemetery literally right behind her? If the vampire that attacks at Buffy's house really was spying on Spike (unlikely, as Angel doesn't even know he's gone) or Buffy (equally dubious, since Angel says "I don't have time for you" when she shows up), then why does he attack after following them? Why does he attack Joyce, rather than whomever he's supposed to be tracking?

Well, obviously, so Buffy will "come out" to Joyce and we can get everyone inside 1630 Revello for that "hilarious" Spike-and-Joyce-sit-awkwardly scene, leading to Buffy getting kicked out of her house.  But pretty damn contrived.

Less blatant, but still clunky, is this bit from the next scene, as Resolve!Face Willow deploys the troops:

Quote

WILLOW (to OZ): Go with Cordy to the Library and get my things; she'll fill you in.

OZ: Sure.  (to Cordelia)  I'll drive.

WILLOW:  Xander, go find Buffy and tell her what we're doing.

Er, Will?  Xander doesn't have a car.  He borrows his mom's sometimes, but even if he did today, he came to the hospital by ambulance, when they treated his broken wrist.  (Plus, he probably insisted on riding with you… [/Xillow heart flutters], so if he had the car, it's at school.)

Meanwhile, Oz and Cordy both own vehicles, which is why Oz is making decisions about which of them is getting a ride and which is driving them there.  But Willow sends them together and has Xander hoofing it on foot across town to try and catch up to Buffy.  Not great logistics there, Will.  I guess that's what you get for leaving the decisions up to the girl who's fresh out of a coma, but still.

Of course, this all just so Xander can be the one to (fail to) give Buffy Willow's message…but once again, we see Whedon's hand at work when we shouldn't.

Mildly annoying, but only a half-point or so off the score, IMO.  I'm nitpicking here, to an extent.

Edited July 22, 2022 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

5 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

I mean, how does Spike (who's supposed to be wheelchair-bound) get away from the Crawford Street Mansion for what has to be several hours without Drusilla, at least, noticing?

Drusilla was too crazy and too into "her Angel" to notice such small details. I guess she was fantasizing about what Angel's gonna do to her after waking Acathla and bringing the world's end or what she's gonna do to Buffy in case the Slayer stays alive after defeat...

Maybe Dru had a hours long nap or, pardon me, masturbating pleasuring herself and thus lost any remaining interest in "Roller boy"...

5 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

we see Whedon's hand at work when we shouldn't.

When it comes to moving things in needed direction, no matter how illogical it may seem, Joss has no shame.

[Halting Hex]

Quote

NICK FURY (to Thor):  I'm asking, what are you prepared to do?

You know, watching somebody react to The Avengers is pretty cool and it's nice when you get the echoes of Whedon's earlier works…

(The bit where Captain America bets Nick $10 that he can't surprise him any longer about the modern world and then silently pays up later on is pretty much the Xillow "I must consult my books" wager from WSWB, for example.)

…but 14 years later and he still can't turn loose of fucking Whistler?  C'mon, man!

Sheesh.  Joss must really have wanted to play the part himself, as the rumor had it.

(I mean, at least we haven't had Nick tell the Hulk that he needs a date to the prom, but still.  Whistler sucked.  Let him go, Joss.  Trust me.)

[Halting Hex]

I'm like a year late for Mark Ward and the guys' reaction, but YouTube lets me catch up.  Mark enjoyed the episode, but wondered why Joyce was all shocked that Buffy had gotten in trouble with the police.  Even granting that they didn't know they'd be rehiring James G. MacDonald and thus they can't reference Joyce's specific history with Det. Stein from Ted, she should be able to recall that Buffy was nearly arrested back then, not to mention the expelled-from-school-and-had-trouble-finding-a-school-that-would-take-her issue, pre-WttH.

So Joyce might be overdoing the "not my angel!" act, I'd say.  Especially as Joyce will kick Buffy out of the house because of "the last two years" barely 20 minutes later into the ep.  Hmmm.

[mmecorday]

When Joyce tells Buffy that if she leaves the house, she's better not even think about coming back, I always expect Buffy to start singing "Love Is A Battlefield."

[Halting Hex]

Shouldn't she be saving her knowledge of the Pat Benatar canon for Act IV, so she can give Angel a chorus of "Hit Me with Your Best Shot"?

Spoiler

Meanwhile, Xander is off whimpering key lines from "Hell is for Children".  And I know fan theories about Xander's childhood never get confirmed, but I think the lack of a definitive answer on the subject is still a spoiler of a sort, hence the bars.

[Halting Hex]

As I alluded to in the Part 1 thread, it's pretty silly to finally be able to use Oz again and only see him for an eye-blink in that episode…

…especially as we're apparently setting up some "romantic triangle" angst with him in this episode, what with Xander's "I love you" declaration to Willow and Willow's calling the wrong name in response.  Tough to remember "Oz and Willow 4EVA!" when they've had one scene of interaction since the days when Jenny was alive, "chair shortage" cuteness or not.

And, as I've noted elsewhere, even tougher to feel Xander's pain when he and Willow haven't had a one-on-one scene since he found her in his bed and have barely exchanged any dialogue since.  (Willow teased him wrt Cordelia wrestling him in the closets IOHEFY and he commented on her "Final Solution" plan there, but it seemed that most of their talk in Go Fish was directed at Buffy or Cordy, rather than each other.) Or, dealing with the larger issue, that we really haven't seen any "Xillow are lifelong best buds" moments since Reptile Boy.  This whole plot is dying from neglect, it seems.

But beyond all that…didn't Xander just royally piss Willow off last episode, by nearly getting into a fist-fight with Giles?  Wasn't Willow venting on the phone to Buffy after that?  ("Willow! My God! You kiss your mother with that mouth?")  I grant you that Whedon will in the future build an entire "Language!" subplot in Avengers: Age of Ultron out of nothing more than Tony Stark saying "Dang it!"…but Sarah didn't play that as if Buffy was being sarcastic, it definitely seemed that Willow said something not WB-approved.

And while Xillow were both present in the further Library scenes in Part 1 without any apparent fall-out, the lack of any Touching Reconciliation Moment still leaves me wondering if perhaps that Scooby Fight played a part in Willow's subconscious translating "boy saying 'I love you'" as "Oh, it must be Oz"?  (Clearly, Xander's anti-Angel statements haven't been forgotten, since Kendra says "I tend to side with your friend, Xander" when opining that she too would rather Buffy slay Angel, rather than attempt the Ritual.  So somebody must have told Kendra what Xander said.) Perhaps if W/X were on better terms, she might have heard more clearly?  It's just annoying to not know what's going on in Willow's head, because we've neglected the set-up for this story, regardless of how well Nick Brendon sells the actual moment.

So yes, we needed more Oz in part 1.  (Whedon does just fine by Oz in this one, but that's not the point.) If only build out the framework for the equally-lacking Xillow-flavored set-up.  Grr.  JMO.

Although I suppose the idea that Xander's still in Willow's bad books might offer hope that, down the road, once Willow's reconciled to him as a friend again, she might rediscover her romantic feelings, as well.  (It is canon, via both Buffy and Willow's words in BB&B, that Will loved Xander even before the spell.)  So there's that hope, still.

Spoiler

Or, of course, we can have four complete episodes' worth of silence on that front, followed by "naughty" kiscsage that's retconned into being a "clothes fluke".  But who would expect that sort of nonsense?

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

Apparently Willow is so pissed off with her supposed lifelong friend she practically choses Angel over Xander['s objections]. At least that's the way I see the whole "Xander Vs Giles" moment in the previous ep.

Too many fans hate Xander irrationally over "The Lie" ™️yet at the same time everyone seems to be ok with this kind of betrayal (to paraphrase Aretha Franklin, let's call this thing exactly what it is). The uncool, flawed, yet deeply loyal and caring best friend whom you know since kindergarten Vs 200+ something years old walking corpse, sadistic mass murderer who deflowered Buffy and is now hell bent on destroying the world? From where any sane person stands the choice is kinda obvious. Not to Willow though...

Of all people from Willow's inner circle she knows Xander the longest and the best. Much longer and better than Buffy, Giles or Angel. Isn't that enough for, I dunno, some understanding of her supposed best friend, giving him the benefit of the doubt and other things like that?

Because I don't see too many logical reasons (from the story's POV) for Willow to blindly follow Buffy in the whole "Let's save my boyfriend but pretend otherwise" plan other than Buffy being the main protagonist and the whole thing being "her show".  

[Halting Hex]

Well, the flaw in that logic is that Willow is already defaulting to "Ritual, yay! Save Angel so Buffy can be happy again!" at the start of the scene, long before Xander ever says a word, much less the "Yeah? Well, Jenny's dead" line that Rupert takes exception to.  So clearly she's not making her decisions based on any anger (which is probably an exaggeration; "annoyance" is more likely) directed at Xander.

Also, while Xander may not be happy that Willow has an opinion different than his, saying that Willow has "chosen Angel" over him is IMO pushing it.  There's no either/or dichotomy in place.  Willow can still love Xander with all of her heart but disagree with him here.  After all, I've heard people (*cough*lembergwatcher*cough*) express annoyance that Willow sometimes seems to automatically agree with Buffy.  So if Willow should go against Buffy when she thinks Buffy is wrong, surely the same standard should apply to Xander?  He should win his arguments based on his arguments, not because Willow's known him since age 4 or whatever.

(I also can recall plenty of times when Willow crossed verbal swords with Buffy, from "God! What is wrong with you?" to "And don't forget to not write!" to "I feel, when I comes to Angel, that you can't think straight" and so on.  Conflating a tendency to agreement with slavish devotion rather blurs the truth, IMO.)

[lembergwatcher]

7 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

So clearly she's not making her decisions based on any anger (which is probably an exaggeration; "annoyance" is more likely) directed at Xander.

Not anger. Some deep grudge more likely. Because of, say, the whole Xordelia thing?

7 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Save Angel so Buffy can be happy again!

Well... Of course, Buffy deserves to be happy. And, of course, Willow, being the good friend she is, has every right to wish Buffy good life and even lend a hand. But... Call me old-fashioned but you cannot have happiness at the cost of other people's pain.
What about Teresa's from Phases family happiness? What about the unnamed girl from BB&B whose heart became Drusilla's present? What about justice for Jenny? Sure killing Angel won't bring any of those back, but things like due punishment exist for a reason.
So Angel is miraculously saved and then what? Everything is back to normal and everyone acts like nothing's happened?
 

7 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Also, while Xander may not be happy that Willow has an opinion different than his, saying that Willow has "chosen Angel" over him is IMO pushing it.

I've never doubted Willow's righht to have opinions of her own whether Xander or anyone else shares them or not. But if I remember correctly they weren't debating politics, climate, music, Snyder's height or who can be a better choice for class president at that moment. Does the notion that "homicidal maniacs who kill and torture innocent people, including children, for fun and try to bring the Apocalypse have to get what they deserve" (and by what they deserve I don't mean hot-looking girlfriends) really have to be a topic of some debate?

7 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

So if Willow should go against Buffy when she thinks Buffy is wrong, surely the same standard should apply to Xander? He should win his arguments based on his arguments, not because Willow's known him since age 4 or whatever.

Is Xander really wrong here? Then again Willow isn't a child, she knows what Angel has done, she has been there all the time, she probably had nightmares involving Angel's cold hands on her throat, she knew Teresa, she cried her heart out after learning about Jenny's demise. What is there to explain?
 

7 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Conflating a tendency to agreement with slavish devotion rather blurs the truth

I agree. Although, like I said, "slavish devotion" hardly applies to Xillow, it's more of the Wuffy thing IMO. Besides, in this particular case it's about the instinct of self-preservation, not blind devotion. I'm not sure Willow loves Buffy so much she's ready to sacrifice her own and everyone else's lives for the sake of Buffy's happiness...

Edited February 8, 2023 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

Further discussion of the argument in Part 1 will eventually appear in that thread.  I only brought it up to reference the possible impact on Willow's assumption about who said "I love you".

And, speaking of that…it occurs to me that if X had just kept his yap shut and let Willow keep on snoozing, Angel would never have had his soul restored, and Buffy would have just cut his head off, and that would be that.

Now, to be fair, a healthy Willow is an objective good thing and I could even argue that Buffy's only able to be as effective against Angel because she doesn't have to worry about Willow possibly dying; knowing that Willow head is still head-shaped is one less thing weighing on Buffy's mind.

But still,

Spoiler

I wonder if Xander ever wondered about the timing when he was frustrated by Angel's presence, in the future?  

Perhaps not…perhaps he just wants Willow to be healthy and he's accepted Forehead's continued existence as part of the bargain he made to still have Willow in his life.  (Perhaps Our Favorite Episcopalian even made this bargain explicitly, in a prayer session before the "you've always…I love you" scene we saw.)

Perhaps this is why Xander is all "Chanukkah spirit" and "Angel! Buddy!" next season, after being "Angel needs to die" last episode?  Hmm.

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Halting Hex

[Halting Hex]

Just watched Cody and Sergio's video on the two-parter and when they asked what their viewers thought, one thing leapt to my mind:

Quote

ME:  God, Whistler really is fucking useless, isn't he?

I mean, he's clearly there to shoehorn in exposition, and then he doesn't even say anything of note, hardly.  In part 1, he tells Angel to clean himself up if he wants to get some sweet loving from that 14-year-old Slayer, and in part 2, it's "one blow will send them both to Hell".  Nothing either Angel or Buffy couldn't have figured out on their own.

And since that "immortal demon sent down to balance good and evil" still stinks out of being pulled out of Joss's ass, my new theory is that Whistler is actually lying (as demons do) and Buffy really could have just cut Angel's palm and thrown his blood in the portal to shut Acathla down (as generations of Bangel 'shippers have whined about since 1998).  It's quite possible that Forehead got screwed.  (Or at least so my Whistler-hate is telling me.)

Granted, Angel going to Hell is still nothing to cry about, IMO.  (My tears for Buffy's heartbreak aside.)

So…thanks, you lying demon, I guess. (Blech.)

[lembergwatcher]

On 9/27/2024 at 3:56 AM, Halting Hex said:

It's quite possible that Forehead got screwed.

Good point. But what's in it for Whistler? 

[Halting Hex]

He's a demon; chaos and suffering is his metier.  (Yes, Buffy said they were "pretty much 'crush, kill, destroy'", but some are subtler.)

Spoiler

As Cordelia will find out, once she falls for Skip's bullskip, which pretty much kills her. (If you believe an easily-faked phone call to an easily-fooled vampire, that is.)