All Episodes Talk: Charmed and Wiccan

[Rockstar99435]

I've been rewatching the series on Netflix. I'm about half way through season 4. It's still a lot of fun. I haven't watched it since it originally aired so while I remember all of the major events, I don't remember how a lot of the individual episodes turn out and I get to be surprised. (I totally forgot that Coolio was in an episode.) And Phoebe doesn't annoy me nearly as much this time through. I don't think she's really any more selfish about her love life than any of the other sisters. 

[Lady Calypso]

23 minutes ago, Rockstar99435 said:

And Phoebe doesn't annoy me nearly as much this time through. I don't think she's really any more selfish about her love life than any of the other sisters. 

Phoebe was great in the first few seasons. If I have to be honest, she only started annoying me late season six, but mainly in the last two seasons. I never minded her as being the one most obsessed with love. We've know her to be in tune with her feelings, but also closed off from letting herself love, even before Cole (I've been skipping around seasons and I'm currently rewatching season 2's Heartbreak City; man this Cupid had so much more chemistry with Phoebe, and more charm as well). However, they introduced a very shrill, very self absorbed Phoebe with her quest to not really find love. It was more to find a husband to start a family with ASAP. It led to a lot of bad episodes with her, including that shitty mini arc with Dex in season 8. It led to her becoming incredibly annoying and frustrating. All I know is that Phoebe had a lot of arcs surrounding her opening herself up to love. Season 2 with Cupid, then the whole thing with Cole, then season 7 with Drake, and the finally season 8 with Coop. It just eventually became one note for Phoebe. It's like they had no idea what to do with her in the last two seasons, so they upped the finding a family angle to 100. 

[helenamonster]

On 5/25/2016 at 4:32 PM, amensisterfriend said:

Every time we chat about this show, I get more and more excited and nostalgic to the point where I now kind of feel like I HAVE to use my Amazon gift card to buy the series on DVD. I'm not sure whether to thank you guys or blame you!

If you have Netflix, save your Amazon gift card, since the whole series is up there (sidenote: will we ever see the day when TV shows on DVD aren't ridiculously overpriced?). The only shitty thing is that the rights lapsed for the theme song and it's some generic bullshit instead, which really bothers me. I LOVED the theme song growing up...it always put me in the mood for the show, and no matter how many episodes I watch in a row on Netflix, the opening credits there take me out of the moment every time.

[4evaQuez]

I know I'm late on the discussion of powers, but there were several powers/power enhancements I wanted to see Phoebe with. 

1. Psionic Recall - I thought this would be a great way to combine Phoebe's premonitions with her empathy. She would use her premonitions to make the demons see their future vanquish but use her empathy to force them to also feel the pain of that vanquish. At first, Phoebe's empathy would not be enough to vanquish the demon, but it would immobilize them enough for a vanquishing spell, call for Leo, get help, etc. However, as her empathy grew, she would be able to enhance the pain of the future vanquish using her empathy to actually vanquish the demon then. I'm also thinking she would be able to use this power to help people as it continued to grow. For example, if an innocent was suicidal, she would use her Psionic Recall to let them see and feel the happiness of their future and enhance the happiness. Phoebe could then use her psychology background to help them in a more normal and eathbound way. (For anyone who has ever seen Xena, think of Alti's power. I've always thought it was such a cool power, and I'm shocked more supernatural shows don't incorporate a similar ability).

 

2. Empathy Shield - Phoebe would be able to create an emphatic shield that would protect her, her sisters and innocents from attacks. However, unlike other shields, Phoebe's shield would be connected to her empathy and the attacking demon would feel the pain he/she would have caused anyone within the shield. At first, Phoebe's shield would only inflict the attacker with the pain, but as he emphatic powers grew anyone within the room or a certain radius would be able to feel the pain. As her power continued to grow, she could enhance the pain enough to vanquish demons.

 

3. Astral Possession - Since Prue inherited Astral Projection, I thought Astral Possession would be a better power for Phoebe. Phoebe's astral self could control a demon or anyone really wholeheartedly. As this power grew, she would be able to read their thoughts and gather important information when possessing a body.

 

4. Premonitions Enhancement - I thought when Phoebe got the power of empathy that she would be able to feel the emphatic energy within the air, and she would be able to have premonitions without physically touching anything similar to Primrose Empath. At first she would have to at least be in the same room as the person, but as her empathy grew, she would be able to feel emotions from miles away and have premonitions as a result.

 

This will sound kinda random, but I wanted the series to end with Phoebe touching the Book of Shadows and having a premonition of their future battles, loves, children, grandchildren, Piper and Paige's deaths and Phoebe ascending to becoming an elder. I wanted Piper and Paige to ask her what she saw and for her to grab their hands as Paige and Piper grabbed each other's hands, and Phoebe to say while smiling and hopeful, "The Power of Three," as the front door of the manor magically closed. It always seemed like a very appropriate ending to me.

[Rockstar99435]

Over in Unpopular Opinions, 4evaQuez said: 

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I will even further the unpopular opinion by saying that I never hated the Elders for forbidding their relationship. Hell, I'll even say I agreed with the elders that Piper and Leo's relationship was a distraction and put innocent lives at risk. 

I didn't have a problem with the Elders telling Leo that he wasn't allowed to date anyone. He should be dead. They gave him the opportunity to continue saving lives, not to get a second chance at life. But I had huge problems with them telling the sisters anything. In the early seasons, they mentioned several times that the Elders were all about "free will." The Elders can't force the sisters to use their magic to help innocents, or to change their clothing/shoe choices, or even to use their magic for good. Paige could've decided to be evil when she first became a witch and the Elders wouldn't be able to do anything about it. I was okay with Piper going on strike for that very reason. She has the right to stop putting her life at risk without punishment.

Since I've been rewatching, I've come to the conclusion that the Elders sent Leo to Piper because they knew the two of them would fall in love. Because of free will, the Elders couldn't force the sisters to do anything. But if they got one of the sisters to fall in love with a white lighter, then the Elders could use the sisters' fear of something happening to him to keep them in line. After Leo and Piper got together, the Elders changed from "You have free will to choose whatever path you want to take" to "Do exactly what we say or we will punish Leo with unspeakable torment" thus guaranteeing that the sisters would be their slaves. It explains why the sisters ran into to countless other witches who weren't using their magic to fight demons without punishment. The Elders didn't have any way to control the other witches so they could use their free will to decide to just use their magic for a family feud.  

[Lady Calypso]

They really did go back and forth on what the Elders were all about. They were never really consistent with them. I just remember how they seemed to imply in season 2 that whitelighters could only use their powers like healing when the Elders let them. It seemed like the Elders had control over all Whitelighters and their abilities. I found that the Elders were dicks, but some of their reasons did make sense. I think it made it easier when they didn't show the Elders as physical beings for so long.

So, I just rewatched season 8's Payback's a Witch and I gotta really vouch for this episode here. It's surprisingly well done. The directing is different because there's a lot of documentary-style camera work and both stories in this episode are very well done. It honestly felt on par for an episode from, say, season 5. I looked up the director of this episode and Mel Damnski also directed another one of my favourites, Primrose Empath (and Spin City....and Just Harried....and Wicca Envy). It was an interesting direction that he took with the episode, but it worked for me. First off, there was a really funny moment with Wyatt orbing a cake into the Elder's face. That made me laugh really hard because we don't often see Elders get humiliated, and it felt good to see. 

Season 8 had Piper looking...well, not so great compared to other seasons. This season ramped up the whole need to be normal with all the sisters, but Piper in particular, and for moments that I think the show were trying to sell as funny, I just saw them as very spiteful from Piper's end. Her disregard for others' feelings just to have a normal life had been amplified and I can see why they did it (so the magical creatures would turn on the Charmed Ones by the end of the season) but it really has made Piper look awful in season 8. Another example I can recall is Piper complaining about Leo not being able to pick up the kids when Billie turned him invisible in that horrid Battle of the Hexes episode. 

Going back to this episode, Piper still had this normal mindset, but unlike the other episodes, it was to distract not just herself, but her children from the absence of their father. Piper, in this episode, wanted Wyatt to have a normal birthday, which meant she hadn't talked much about his father not being around. It actually ended up being a good episode for Piper, at least one of the better ones this season because it was clear where she was coming from. But this also helped give insight to Wyatt, a young child who has been affected by this family directly. We don't see the points of view of either son much (I mean...future Chris doesn't fully count), and not that I would jump up and down for more of Wyatt, but this episode puts him in a role other than a plot device for the sisters. He actually gets a point of view, one through his toys coming to life (probably because Wyatt's actor probably wasn't a good actor, being a three year old, but I wish they did try a couple of lines) and we get to see how Leo's disappearance affects the entire family other than the adults. Too bad we couldn't get a single shot of baby Chris. Imagine him playing with the toys. Plus, we get to see Phoebe interact with Wyatt. We don't see many of the actors other than Brian and Holly getting to interact with the children, so this was a nice moment.

This episode also got to deal with more mortal issues, but of course with a magical twist. The fact that Henry's army buddy Nick actually chose to take the bank hostage on his own brought to light some real life issues. Before getting possessed (I'm still surprised that they allowed Nick to be Nick until more than halfway through the episode), he was dealing with being in prison but also with heavily implied PTSD from Iraq. They made the issue fairly subtle, never tried to demonize his actions (until he was actually possessed by a demon) and there was still some hope for Nick by the end of the episode that maybe he wouldn't stay in jail for long. Nick never shot anyone, the demon possessing Nick never shot anyone (he could have easily ruined Nick's life but...oddly enough, they never went that route, so that gave Nick a chance to stay out of jail) and they gave me a reason to care for him. 

Plus, Paige's powers advance! Finally! It only took four seasons to get there! She got to heal Henry (I guess just enough to not make people suspicious on why the bullet wound was mostly healed) and this is actually a good episode for Billie. One of the last times I liked her as a character, that's for sure. Her and Paige had to find a way to save lives without using magic...but she actually got to make a sort of potion. But she learned a lesson about revenge, so I think it really helped. 

Overall, if you guys haven't watched this episode in a while, it's definitely the one I would recommend watching again. Season 8 had a lot of flops, but this episode somehow stood out amongst all of it. I don't know how this was written by Brad Kern, but somehow he actually made a good episode.

[GreenScreenFX]

Thoughts on Billie; the network wanted a spin off, but the producers never actually wanted one. The writers and producers were actually "done". There is no way she would have been written that unlikable.... 1-3 episodes maybe...she could have redeemed herself... Yet she continued on the path, the Internet and chat rooms were in full swing at that point, and they knew she was hated...but not until the final episode did they try to save her character. Way too late.  As much as I like Kaley in the future, she did not pass muster.  The story was complete.

[GreenScreenFX]

The above statement is purely speculation. Anyone (below the line) with a job in Hollywood wants it to last as long as possible....

[magicdog]

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 [Gideon] was something other than a demon, so that was nice. We all knew the Elders were evil in their own way! 

 

This is what bugs me (including the actions of the Elders Season 3 onwards).  The Elders (and Whitelighters) were stated to have been exceptionally good people in numerous incarnations until they were deemed pure enough to become a Whitelighter after their last life [on Earth].  One would think no Elder would have behaved as Gideon did or that the Elders would behave so negatively towards the sisters considering the force for good they were meant to be.  I definitely agree that The Elders  went from being mysterious wisemen to cranky overpowered magical bureaucrats.

 

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Thoughts on Billie; the network wanted a spin off, but the producers never actually wanted one

As far as I know it was the reverse- Brad Kern tried to sell two spinoffs to the network but The WB/CW took a pass.  Lots of Charmed viewers liked the idea of a spinoff with Chris & Wyatt, (which made more sense and the actors were willing to commit if it had gone forward), not Billie & Christy.  

[Lady Calypso]

Man, if we had gotten a Charmed Next Gen spinoff, that would have been a lot of fun. The interesting thing is that they could do it now if they wanted to. Maybe it would have been more popular after Charmed ended, but they could always give it a try now. The superhero/supernatural genre is fairly popular now, and Charmed would be falling under the reboot/spinoff train that has been very popular the last five years. I know they tried a reboot not that long ago, but I think people would be more willing to have a spinoff, if Drew Fuller and Wes Ramsey are willing to commit. Then they'd just have to cast an actress to play Melinda, get most of the old cast to have recurring roles, and I think it could gain a season or two. Maybe now it's too late, so I guess it's more of a what could have been scenario.

[helenamonster]

I would love a next-gen reboot for this show. They could even include Phoebe and Paige's kids as well, and, depending on availability, the original cast could show up in flashbacks/time travel episodes (obviously they'd have to get new actors to play the older versions of the original characters).

[Rockstar99435]

I'm now in the beginning of Season 5 of my rewatch. They definitely needed to hold off on bringing Cole back. Phoebe goes from "I love Cole enough to be evil" to "I love my sisters more so I will help vanquish the man I love" to "I still love Cole and need to help him move on" to "I hate Cole and want him to die again" in the span of like 3 episodes. Instead, the season should have started with Phoebe trying to move on alone and having to deal with all the Cole consequences, including the cops thinking she killed him. Phoebe could go through all the stages of grief. And then after Phoebe is finally able to move on and find some peace, then Cole starts trying to come back. 

[iMonrey]

TNT reruns this show in the wee hours of the morning, 3 episodes back to back, and I've been re-watching for a few weeks. Started somewhere in the middle of Season 6 and now approaching the final episodes of Season 8.

They really did a sloppy job getting to the end game with Billie turning on the sisters - it made her look exceptionally stupid, more so than she had all season. At one point - which I totally forgot - Christie openly admitted she had been trained by the Triad to take this path, at which point Billie should have gone "Wait, what?" She knew the Triad was the ultimate evil and wanted nothing more than to destroy the Charmed Ones; for Christie to admit they had been her mentor and for Billie to continue following her along blindly was idiotic.

The other stupid thing they kept doing is having the Triad freeze the room so they could have private conversations with Christie. But if they had the power to freeze the Charmed Ones why didn't they just do that and kill them? Good witches aren't even supposed to freeze. I know they played fast and loose with that rule but this was really ridiculous. They froze them at least twice and could have taken them out right then and there instead of chatting up Christie about her mission. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

Looking forward to the series finale, though. That was really one of the best episodes of the series.

[magicdog]

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The other stupid thing they kept doing is having the Triad freeze the room so they could have private conversations with Christie. But if they had the power to freeze the Charmed Ones why didn't they just do that and kill them? Good witches aren't even supposed to freeze. I know they played fast and loose with that rule but this was really ridiculous. They froze them at least twice and could have taken them out right then and there instead of chatting up Christie about her mission. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

Agreed.  That wasn't the first time they had the bad guys be able to freeze the sisters and not kill them -  it happened in "Witchstock" when a warlock played by Jake Busey (Gary Busey's look a like son) walked into a room to discuss plans with another warlock while frozen witches in the area.  Who authorized that stupid plot device???

[Apprentice79]

7 hours ago, magicdog said:

Agreed.  That wasn't the first time they had the bad guys be able to freeze the sisters and not kill them -  it happened in "Witchstock" when a warlock played by Jake Busey (Gary Busey's look a like son) walked into a room to discuss plans with another warlock while frozen witches in the area.  Who authorized that stupid plot device???

I assumed it was Brad Kern. However, I always assumed the freezing power would have no effect on the Charmed ones because they were the most powerful witches that Mankind has ever known..It would have effect on regular good witches, if the freezing power is being used by an evil witch or warlock....The show missed the boat by not introducing evil beings with the same powers as the Charmed ones, to showcase just how much more powerful the charmed ones were as individuals...The original powers that Prue, Piper and Phoebe were not unique in itself, what would set them apart from other witches was how Telekinesis, the freezing power and premonitions would manifest in them....They would be able to do things with them, that other witches both good and bad with similar powers would be unable to do...I always felt that the show should have developed their original powers more before giving them more...

Edited June 13, 2016 by Apprentice79

[iMonrey]

Re-watching Season 1 now; it's funny how far off course they got from their original premise. In two early episodes the girls seemed to think only female descendants of Melinda Warren would become witches yet Piper would go on to have two male children, both powerful witches. Also, their original father's name in Season 1 was Victor Halliwell. Later they would change it and make Halliwell the maiden name of their mother and grandmother and Victor's last name became Bennett. 

Also noticing how often Phoebe has premonitions in the first season, several per episode. By Season 8 she almost never had them (even after she "earned back" that power).

In the third episode ("Thank you for not morphing") a demon actually picked up the Book of Shadows in the attic and carried it all the way downstairs. It just wouldn't let him take it out of the house.

Can't believe John Cho was a guest star once. So was Amy Adams. Before the were famous . . .

What's really weird is seeing Rebecca Balding (eventually Phoebe's boss Elise at the newspaper) playing a different character in Season 1's "The Fourth Sister."

[helenamonster]

51 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Re-watching Season 1 now; it's funny how far off course they got from their original premise. In two early episodes the girls seemed to think only female descendants of Melinda Warren would become witches yet Piper would go on to have two male children, both powerful witches. Also, their original father's name in Season 1 was Victor Halliwell. Later they would change it and make Halliwell the maiden name of their mother and grandmother and Victor's last name became Bennett. 

That reminds me...it might have been mentioned, but was Prue, Piper, and Phoebe's last name always Halliwell, or were they originally Prue Bennett, Piper Bennett, and Phoebe Bennett and then Grams changed it later on? I know Wyatt and Chris were given Halliwell as a last name because of how "good respects it and evil fears it," but was it the same case with the sisters? Something tells me Victor, at least at that time, would not have been happy with his daughters getting his wife's maiden name at birth.

[Lady Calypso]

6 hours ago, helenamonster said:

That reminds me...it might have been mentioned, but was Prue, Piper, and Phoebe's last name always Halliwell, or were they originally Prue Bennett, Piper Bennett, and Phoebe Bennett and then Grams changed it later on? I know Wyatt and Chris were given Halliwell as a last name because of how "good respects it and evil fears it," but was it the same case with the sisters? Something tells me Victor, at least at that time, would not have been happy with his daughters getting his wife's maiden name at birth.

I don't know if they ever said, but I'd presume the one thing Grams and Patty made sure of was that the girls kept the Halliwell name. I don't think Victor could win that argument even if he did try. I know that they wouldn't have known about Piper, Prue and Phoebe being the Charmed Ones, but it seems like Grams knew that there would be future witches in their family who would become quite powerful, so I could see that being a strong enough reason to convince Patty to let the girls keep their last name as Halliwell. 

[iMonrey]

They never addressed it, but given how the first season suggests Halliwell was their father's name, I don't think they ever wanted to really get into it once they changed their minds and made Halliwell the name of the maternal line and changed Victor's last name. I really don't understand why they did that either. Their distant ancestor was Melinda Warren. Obviously no one would expect female descendants to keep the same last name. It would have made more sense if Patty had a different maiden name than Halliwell - whatever her father's last name was. 

I think at some point the writers just decided they wanted to say "the Halliwell line" a lot. 

[magicdog]

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It would have made more sense if Patty had a different maiden name than Halliwell - whatever her father's last name was. 

FWIW, according to the novelized version of the pilot (based on the original scripts and notes by Connie Burge), Patty's maiden name was supposed to be Marston, and Victor's last name was indeed Halliwell.  In, "That 70s Episode", Patty mentions how Grams wouldn't let her take Victor's last name.  

Victor later says Grams drove him away ("Thank You For Not Morphing") and it's confirmed in Season 3 ("We All Scream For Ice Cream") that after little Prue was nearly sucked into the ice cream truck, Grams thought Victor couldn't adequately protect the girls since he had no powers.

 

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was Prue, Piper, and Phoebe's last name always Halliwell, or were they originally Prue Bennett, Piper Bennett, and Phoebe Bennett and then Grams changed it later on?

Grams wouldn't let Patty take Victor's name and I wouldn't be surprised if she insisted the sisters were always given the Halliwell name despite the convention of having their father's name.  Grams also made a mention in "Just Harried" that Halliwell women kept their names after marriage - but I think it was only beginning with her since she'd been married so many times and became soured on marriage in general.  

 

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In the third episode ("Thank you for not morphing") a demon actually picked up the Book of Shadows in the attic and carried it all the way downstairs. It just wouldn't let him take it out of the house.

There had been a theory that the Charmed Ones weren't powerful enough to keep the BOS from being touched by evil at that point, but I think it's just an inconsistency on the writers' part.  One facet I did like was how the BOS couldn't be removed from the house except by a Warren Witch, which IMO made a bit more sense than generic evil being unable to touch it.  

Edited June 17, 2016 by magicdog

[iMonrey]

Just finished watching Secrets and Guys, the one where Phoebe discovered Leo was a White Lighter. Wow - Leo had a lot of powers originally! He could levitate, he could heat Phoebe's tea or fill her ice water, he even had telekinesis. In later seasons all he ever did was orb and heal! Also, the original special effect used for orbing was more elaborate, leaving a trail of magic dust like Tinkerbell as he flew into the sky. 

What I really found interesting is that the Elders were originally called the Founders. He tells Phoebe his bosses are "elder Whitelighters, called The Founders." The continuity department on this show didn't do a very good job looking this stuff up when it came time to refer to them again later.

[blueray]

They really did not follow what was said or done in earlier seasons. I remember Leo also mentioning that they shouldn't  know who he was, but in later episodes witches know their whitelighter. As for his powers, they definitely decrease as the show goes on. However, I think I remember him levitating once and I think Paige walking in on him (I want to say it was in the creepy house episode in season 4). He also "heals" the P3 sign.

Edited June 20, 2016 by blueray

[magicdog]

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What I really found interesting is that the Elders were originally called the Founders. He tells Phoebe his bosses are "elder Whitelighters, called The Founders." 

I had heard the reason this was changed was due to the same name used for the shapeshifting race from Star Trek: Deep Space 9.  They wanted to avoid confusion - or being accused of being copycats.

 

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They really did not follow what was said or done in earlier seasons. I remember Leo also mentioning that they shouldn't  know who he was, but in later episodes witches know their whitelighter

 

I think it would have been better if witches didn't know who their WL was.  The Charmed Ones could have been the exception since they were the exception to ordinary witches in the first place.

[iMonrey]

Just watched S2E2 "Morality Bites" where they travel 10 (count'em - 10!) years into the future. Hilarious the writers thought by 2009 MTV would be hosting Real World on the moon.

[magicdog]

They were half right - as the show was still in production in '09.

I always hated that the girls' powers were never developed the way they were shown to be in this episode.  They really looked like the bad ass witches they were meant to be. 

[iMonrey]

Moving along through Season 2 now and boy, I'd forgotten how much I despised Lochlyn Munro as Jack. Thank God he never made it past the second season, that guy put the S in the word Smug. I did however always prefer Dan to Leo and was always rooting for Piper to choose him instead. I wonder what the heck happened to Dan's niece - she was important enough to be included as a regular in the opening credits during the first few episodes but she disappeared suddenly after only those few episodes. I think she appeared in 3 total before they wrote her off.

[amensisterfriend]

Yeah, S2 in general has been pretty much a disappointment for me this time around! The Dan/Piper/Leo stuff is just so endless, dull and annoying and, like most love triangles, does nothing to make any of the three characters more likable and interesting. As I've said before, I can't for a second buy the Piper we were introduced to as eager to run a  trendy and cool nightclub, so that aspect of s2 doesn't really work for me either. (The more I watch the show in general, the more I grow to love and appreciate Piper and especially the actress who plays her---but the writers sometimes did her no favors!) I could see super sociable Phoebe or even Prue as way more interested in starting a club than Piper and wish the show had found a better excuse to let their musical acts appear weekly if that was the primary reason for P3 not being a restaurant, catering service, etc. :)

I'd forgotten how much I despised Lochlyn Munro as Jack. Thank God he never made it past the second season, that guy put the S in the word Smug

...And then there was Jack Sheridan...argh! I can't buy him as the kind of guy Prue would tolerate on any level, let alone develop some sort of feelings for. (Then again, she WAS engaged to that guy Roger, so maybe she does like insufferably smug men...?!) 

As a few of us have already chatted about, I actually missed Prue working at Buckland, which I thought it was a good setting for the show and a more natural fit for some of their enchanted storylines than Prue as a freelance photographer, which had potential to give us new types of settings and storylines but felt like the writers had no idea what to actually do with. 

I wonder what the heck happened to Dan's niece -

Oh---Jenny! Another reason for my relative mehness on S2 :)

I did however always prefer Dan to Leo and was always rooting for Piper to choose him instead.

I feel like I didn't have a strong sense of either of their personalities. (This show was amazingly bad at giving their male love interests even a few well-defined personality traits IMO!) I gather Dan was the straight shooting, no nonsense, candid 'normal' guy who represented the easier and more conventional life that part of Piper always wanted while Leo, with his complex past and weird involvement in their supernatural lives, was the more difficult choice yet ultimately her supposed soulmate. Leo himself was always tough to figure out for me---laidback to contrast with our vibrant, often obsessive, intense and neurotic Halliwells? Kind of easygoing and sociable to contrast with Piper being more of a shy introvert? Kind of a dork even when he's totally unaware that he is?! I feel like I fanwank Leo in a way that allows me to like him and his relationship with Piper more, but he was pretty underwritten.  

Phoebe was very likable this season, but her stories felt disconnected and aimless as well.  S2 in general just felt meandering and directionless, like the show was going through a sophomore slump and minor identity crisis. Don't get me wrong, S2 does have a few of my very favorite episodes and some great sisterly bonding, but also a whole lot that I'd happily never watch again :) 

On the bright side, I think I'm coming full circle with S5: I'd remembered it as my favorite (or at least one of my favorites!), was disappointingly 'eh' on it the last time I saw it, and am now falling back in love with it again. And here's an unpopular opinion: I actually think I enjoy gleefully insane Cole more than the  'kinda human but never for long' Cole of previous seasons, who often came off as too slick and smarmy to me even when he wasn't suppose to :) I'm also appreciating some nice Piper/Leo moments in S5, especially since I know that this is the last season they're really consistently together and at least somewhat happy. Best of all, this new trio of Halliwells finally seems to gel more as a unit in S5. I LOVE S4 and it has a disproportionate number of my favorite episodes, but you could tell through most of that season that Paige didn't fit in yet, and while that was realistic, it gave us less of the sisterly bonding that I adore about this show. 

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, amensisterfriend said:

And here's an unpopular opinion: I actually think I enjoy gleefully insane Cole more than the  'kinda human but never for long' Cole of previous seasons, who often came off as too slick and smarmy to me even when he wasn't suppose to :)

I loved gleefully insane Cole a lot. He was a lot of fun, and Julian McMahon looked like he was having a blast with playing Cole basically having a mental breakdown for a few episodes there. I think I just wished that Cole would have moved on from Phoebe instead of dying. Yes, I know he had to die and it was the right time for him, but he was just so much fun. Season 5 in general, though, was just a fun season. There wasn't as much darkness as the other seasons. Of course, there was also no major villain besides Cole being a nuisance. As much as I truly believe that his arc was technically over when he was killed as The Source, getting to have Cole without the Source in him was nice. They really shouldn't have brought him back in the season 4 finale, though. It would have been a nice break until season 5, and then they could have brought him back as a nice surprise to viewers. Cole's arc was just off in season 5 when it came to Phoebe, but I loved his character as a whole, right until the end. 

[blueray]

Quote

Cole's arc was just off in season 5 when it came to Phoebe, but I loved his character as a whole, right until the end.

I agree with that. I was disappointed when they killed him off. I think it would have been better if he had gone off to find him self and returned as a recurring character in later seasons.

[Apprentice79]

18 hours ago, magicdog said:

They were half right - as the show was still in production in '09.

I always hated that the girls' powers were never developed the way they were shown to be in this episode.  They really looked like the bad ass witches they were meant to be. 

I will always lament that the sisters' powers never advanced.. I love Morality bites just for the preview that Constance Burge was setting up for the future...

[iMonrey]

Pardon My Past was always one of my favorite episodes but there are two very noticeable flaws in the story. The first is that Leo and Piper were supposed to have been lovers in their previous lives, but the story took place in 1924. Leo, in his last incarnation, was supposed to have died in World War II. Even if he died immediately after the events of 1924 and was reincarnation that same year, that would have made him only about 20 in his next life when he died as a field medic and clearly he was older than that. Or if it was the same incarnation in 1924 that died in World War II he would have been in his 40s and clearly he's younger than that, unless the elders restored his youth when he died and they made him a White Lighter.

I think they were just so wrapped up in the idea of him and Piper as soul mates  nobody bothered to do the math.

The other oddity of this episode is that Phoebe got hold of this necklace that protected her against magic. Whatever the hell happened to that necklace after this episode was over? Think of how handy that thing would have been over the next six seasons!

[amensisterfriend]

I think I may have a new favorite episode: Centennial Charmed. I'm an admitted sucker for alt universe episodes of my shows anyway, and this one is so well done and endlessly rewatchable IMO. I guess it helps that by then I was ready to say a permanent farewell to Cole despite actually liking most of his S5 appearances :) 

[helenamonster]

I like "Centennial Charmed" a lot as well. One of my favorite things about it (I think I've mentioned this before) is that Paige is, in a weird sort of way, solely responsible for Cole's final vanquish. Sure, she needs Alternate Universe Piper and Phoebe to do it, but Normal Universe Piper and Phoebe have absolutely no memory of it.

Normally, it might have made more sense for Phoebe to get stuck in the alternative universe, seeing as how she was the one in the relationship with Cole, but it's nice retribution for Paige, who smelled something rotten about him almost as soon as he became The Source. It's just interesting that there seems to be more poetic justice in Paige doing it than Phoebe, if that makes any sense.

[iMonrey]

So I've polished off the rest of Season 3 on TNT and am now well into Season 4.

The most glaring problem with the introduction of Cole in Season 3 is that he spent the bulk of it hiding his true identity from Phoebe and she never once had a premonition that he was Balthazar. Which kind of makes her power totally useless, since its purpose is to warn her when an innocent is in danger. She'd had premonitions about far more mundane things but even when she was at her most intimate with Cole, never one premonition to warn her he was a demon sent to kill her. 

I know the show kind of played fast and loose with all of their powers especially in the later seasons, but the fact that Phoebe never got a premonition about Cole is kind of hard to ignore. The story arc would have been better served if they had thrown some dialogue in there about Cole somehow shielding himself from her premonitions by casting a spell or something along those lines.

Season 4 is shaping up pretty well with the introduction of Paige and the interesting arc where she learns to use her powers. Unfortunately, it was at this point in the series where it seemed like Holly Marie Combs started phoning it in. I remember thinking by around Season 6 she was practically catatonic most of the time but even as early as Season 4 I can see signs where she's already kind of over it. 

[amensisterfriend]

 Unfortunately, it was at this point in the series where it seemed like Holly Marie Combs started phoning it in. I remember thinking by around Season 6 she was practically catatonic most of the time but even as early as Season 4 I can see signs where she's already kind of over it.

Interesting, Imonrey---I've been vocal about not liking the ways that Piper changed as the series progressed, but I've tended to blame it on the writing rather than the acting. I love HMC, but you may be right that her line deliveries, facial expressions etc. contributed a bit to why Piper seemed so flat, bitter, perpetually irritated, whiny, etc in later seasons. I understand her changes a lot more in S4, when she's clearly grieving Prue, but it's pretty surprising to watch the Piper of earlier seasons vs the Piper of later ones. As I've admitted here before, I actually think Piper changed even more than Phoebe did, and not generally for the better. What many understandably see as her becoming stronger comes off as just hardened, endlessly negative and a lot less likable for me. 

In general, while S3, S4 and S5 are arguably the best seasons of the series, I think Piper and Phoebe are both at their very most lovable for me in S1, and at times Prue is as well. If I want to talk more about my love for Phoebe, though---and especially early seasons Phoebe---I should probably take a trip to the Unpopular Opinions thread :) (For the record, I COMPLETELY see why some would dislike Phoebe from the outset of the series---she's actually the 'woo hoo, see how adorably free spirited she is?!' type that I normally don't warm up to, but something about the acting and writing just makes me fall in love with Early Phoebe every time---she's just brimming over with so much energy, optimism, spirit, warmth, humor and joy and really does strive to be a better person. As much as I love Prue and Early Piper beyond description, I think Phoebe adds a really vital energy to the sisters' dynamic and overall show. 

 Re. Paige---maybe I was just as slow to accept her as Piper was, but I don't think it's until those last episodes of S4 that I really liked her. (And it's S5 when I really love her!) I just felt like they had no sense of who they wanted this character to be when they first introduced her, and she came off to me like a really uneasy combination of Early Phoebe and Prue before finally becoming her own character. 

Random question for you guys: I see a lot of fans who really loved Piper's short-lived connection with Mark Chao and think she'd have been happier with him than she generally was with Leo. Do you guys agree? Disagree? Wonder why fans are still talking Mark Chao at all?! ;) 

[4evaQuez]

Oh my gosh, Amensisterfriend! I am one of those fans who absolutely LOVED Piper and Mark Chao. I know it was only one episode, but it left an eternal mark on my mind. I honestly can't remember the last time I watched that episode, but I still remember just how comfortable and happy the two made each other. The genuine smile and laugh Piper had that I only saw around Prue. 

I honestly do think Piper would had been happier with Mark had he been alive. One. He had the "normal" life the Piper needed. She wouldn't have had to worry about him going off to help innocents, the elders calling him away, darklighters coming after him, etc. She would have had the "normal" relationship issue of his mom disapproving because she is not Chinese. 

Mark would have shared in Piper's dream of owning a restaurant. If I'm being honest, I can't remember very many discussions Leo and Piper had that wasn't about the Elders keeping them apart or Wyatt. I honestly don't know what they talked about. In fairness, I found Leo and Piper really boring with the exception of the 5th season. Mark and Piper could have continued bonding over their love of cooking and food. I even see them growing their bond in other organic ways. Because they both seemed so comfortable with each other and they seemed to have a strong mutual respect for each other - Piper definitely didn't respect Leo - I could see them talking about a wide variety of topics for hours. Speaking of Piper's lack of respect for Leo, if Piper were married to Mark, she'd be forced to actually communicate with Mark while angry. What I mean is, the writers developed a terrible habit of having Piper blow Leo up when she was angry. I understand that was supposed to be comedic relief, but it honestly damaged my perception of the Leo/Piper dynamic and Piper as a character.

Lastly, the two just had amazing chemistry. They seemed like two people who'd known each other their entire lives, and I honestly thought Mark Choi was Piper's true soul mate. I remember having an idea for a fanfic - which I never actually wrote - where Piper's future life was evil and she came to the past to attack the Charmed ones - I didn't have a reason as to why - but her future husband was Mark Choi's future life.

I have to rewatch the episode now, so I can provide more reason as to why I loved them so much.

[iMonrey]

I think we're still talking about Mark because he was played by John Cho who eventually became much more famous than he was then. He had obvious chemistry with HMC and a lot of fans never saw any chemistry between her and Brian Krause. Personally I was always rooting for Piper and Dan next door.

amensisterfriend - I never really noticed the big change in the way HMC played Piper back when the series originally aired. It's just now that I'm binge-watching three episodes a day and they fly by so quickly. I started somewhere in the middle of Season 6 and worked my way to the end then started over at Season 1 - that's when I really noticed the change in Piper. Personally (and I'm just guessing here) I think after the whole thing with Shannen Doherty leaving, HMC just started looking at the show as a paycheck. She found moments to amuse herself here and there but I could really see the change between Season 3 and Season 4. Probably not a coincidence.

[4evaQuez]

I just rewatched Dead Man Dating. In retrospect, I realize this is the first episode I truly loved. (I didn't realize it was only the 4th episode of the season). I still love Piper and Mark. There were things that happened in the episode I truly forgot. One, I thought Mark was a chef.It turns out he was a molecular biologist, but he was still able to have a conversation with Piper about food, something she loved. Mark also truly opens up to Piper regarding his own feelings, fears, his death, his mom, his dad, etc. Their is a tenderness and trust between the two that allowed for organic, natural and sweet exchanges. That is something I never saw between Piper and Leo. I understand that this is par for the course with a longterm couple as a lot of the time the writers don't want to pigeonhole themselves to a certain narrative - although continuity never seemed to be a huge concern for Charmed writers - but the fact that Piper was constantly learning something new about Leo really made me feel the two had a lack of connection. Some examples that come to mind, in the 3rd season in the episode with Natalie and Eams, Piper had no idea Whitelighters had a special language. Or that whitelighters had special meetings regarding their charges. While I can forgive that Piper had never heard of Natalie - even though she is supposed to be a close friend of Leo - I can't forgive Piper not knowing about about Leo's everyday activities as a whitelighter since Piper and Whitelighting were the only aspects of his life and thus his character. This is repeated in the 5th season when baby Wyatt switches Leo and Piper's powers from the womb. Piper has no idea that Leo can speak any language his charge speaks. What the hell do they talk about???

 

Next, there's a scene where Piper hovers her hand above Mark's skin and tells him to imagine her touching him. They then close their eyes and hover their lips around each other pretending to kiss. It is extremely intimate and sensual - I would argue one of the most sensual/intimate moments of the entire series. I can't think of a scene from Piper/Leo that compares. 

 

Piper does not spend all of her time around Mark complaining. Piper seems genuinely happy to be around Mark and he her. Again, I know this is an aspect of a long running television program and especially with super couples, but Piper and Leo were given a lot of angst. The angst meant that the characters had to spend a lot of time discussing the angst. SO a lot of Piper/Leo's conversations were about how they can't be together because of the elders, or the extremely boring Dan/Piper/Leo triangle and then back to the elders. It was just somewhat boring and repetitive to me. And while I think it is realistic for Phoebe to be in a against all odds, us versus them, I won't let anyone keep us apart romance - and to a lesser extent even Prue - I don't believe Piper - especially early seasons Piper - would have the will or even the interest in fighting for a relationship that hard. I understand that her fighting for Leo's love was supposed to be a part of the evolution of Piper's character, but it did not connect for me, and Piper seemed more the type to want a more reliable man with a lot less drama surrounding the relationship. I would also argue Piper showed a lot of strength and growth of character at the end of Dead Man Dating when she heroically defended Mark against the demonic spirit  but demanding he leave Mark alone. Ultimately, I think Mark would have allowed the Piper character to grow a lot more. Also, when I think about it some more, I think Piper was more active in her change for Mark. She was the one who went to his mom, took a picture of the mobster alone and even jumped in front of the demonic spirit all of her own free will and agency. Whereas with Leo, Piper still seemed quite passive in her pursuit of him. Their big climatic moment - before the wedding - was Piper being attacked by trolls and screaming at the sky for the Elders to give Leo back. Then just kinda walking off and hoping they'll give him back. It's hard for me to attribute Leo as a part of Piper's growth because I don't think the writers did a good job connecting the two. I would also note that when people discuss Piper's change of becoming a stronger character they attribute it to Prue's death and rarely - if ever - to Leo's love.

 

Lastly, I like Mark. He's funny, charismatic, supportive of Piper, cares about Prue/her sisters (there's a scene where he tells Piper the importance of Prue celebrating her birthday, but he seems to say it because of how important it will be for Prue and by extension Piper and not solely for himself), and the two seemed like they could have an actual partnershlip. John Cho was also a much better actor than Brian Krause. I felt for Mark in his scenes, I not only wanted him to be saved from the demonic spirit, but I was also hoping there was some way they could bring him back to life. At most, all I've ever felt for Leo is indifference. And while the show didn't give Brian a lot to work with, I thought that was partly because he could not deliver when they did. I thought his Saving Private Leo episode failed whenever he had to do heavy lifting, and Leo was just a 24/7 healing machine and a B storyline for Piper. I like Mark and Piper and care about their happiness both as individuals and as a couple.

 

Regarding HMC, I noticed a change in her acting during the show's original run. I didn't noticed until the 6th season, but I attributed it to her real life pregnancy. However, in the 7th season, she still just seemed bored and like she was interested solely in reciting and her lines and then getting the hell out of dodge. I'll have to rewatch the earlier seasons to see if she'd lost interest earlier than I remember.

Edited July 20, 2016 by 4evaQuez

[amensisterfriend]

Excellent post, 4eva! You've inspired me to rewatch Dead Man Dating this weekend :)

As you alluded to, a major problem I had with the relentless parade of obstacles to the Leo/Piper relationship was that those problems seemed to be INSTEAD of---rather than in addition to---developing said relationship in the first place. I couldn't be too invested in saving this endlessly problematic, angst-soaked relationship when I rarely had the sense that it was strong and deep and happy enough to be worth saving! The joy to angst ratio was just wildly out of proportion to me. Other than a cute but relatively mild physical attraction, how exactly do Piper and Leo connect emotionally, intellectually, etc.? Which traits and interests do they share? How do their similarities help them connect, and do their differences challenge each other? What ARE their fundamental similarities and differences anyway?! Leo was really poorly defined and developed as an individual character IMO, especially when you consider how very many episodes he appeared in, so I guess it follows that his dynamic with Piper was poorly developed as well. 

He's [Mark's] funny, charismatic,

So you know how much I love S1 Piper, but since she's a slightly unsure introvert with a very dry sense of humor, I love the idea of a more vibrant, lively character to balance her out a bit and help her out of her shell. Leo is just so drab most of the time, and it somehow seemed infectious, like Piper was a faded, less happy and dynamic version of who she could have been through most of their series-long romance. (Now if they had made Leo a super cheery, laidback character and paired him with someone super intense and serious like Prue, for instance, that could have been more interesting or at least a fun and amusing dynamic IMO!)   

But mostly...

Piper does not spend all of her time around Mark complaining. Piper seems genuinely happy to be around Mark and he her.

...this. :) Piper was to me a less likable, negative, whiny mope around and in relation to Leo more often than not, and even though that can reasonably be blamed on the elders rather than on her relationship with Leo, her relationship with Leo was so wholly defined by the elders' interference and so poorly defined outside of it that I'm not sure the two can be separated. Without the elders and Piper and Leo's mutual involvement in the supernatural world, I honestly don't know what else they would talk about. 

They had a few nice moments, of course, but overall I just don't feel the relationship did Piper's character or the overall show any favors! At least with Phoebe and Cole, arguably even more dysfunctional and problematic, I bought that there was a very strong passion, chemistry, drawn-to-each-other-on-every-level-even-when-they-didn't-want-to be connection, but with Leo and Piper I just didn't feel that way. 

[Apprentice79]

I love your insights on the Leo/Piper dynamic...I never understood their romance and consequently never cared..I have heard that Constance Burge never really wanted the Leo character to have staying power..He was meant to be a character for season 1..I always hated the sisters' dependence on Leo and it minimized their agency....Phoebe should have been the healer in the collective of the power of 3...I hate that we never saw Piper evolved without Leo....

[4evaQuez]

On 7/16/2016 at 5:19 PM, amensisterfriend said:

I think I may have a new favorite episode: Centennial Charmed. I'm an admitted sucker for alt universe episodes of my shows anyway, and this one is so well done and endlessly rewatchable IMO. I guess it helps that by then I was ready to say a permanent farewell to Cole despite actually liking most of his S5 appearances :) 

It's funny you bring up Centennial Charmed. Since I rewatched Dead Man Dating, I decided to start watching more Charmed episodes both during Pru and after Prue seasons. Regarding Centennial Charmed, I actually started thinking about how different that episode would be if Prue/Piper/Phoebe were still the main three witches. I see that episode focusing on Phoebe's perspective if Prue were still alive. And not because of the focus on Cole, but because the During Prue years portrayed Phoebe as the heart of the show whereas Centennial Charmed portrayed Paige as the heart of the show.

Phoebe, although she didn't have an active power like Prue and Piper, was shown at the one who was street smart, dedicated to the craft, studying the craft, was the best at spells and potions, was the best strategist and she was the one who gave the best advice and had the most insight into the lives of others - hence her going back to school for her psychology degree. Her premonitions allowed her to truly feel the extent of emotions that the average person could not handle. This is seen in the Love Hurts episode when Prue and Phoebe switch powers. Prue has a premonition and has some dialogue about being overwhelmed by the experience. I also think we can look at the Primrose Empath and season 6 as another example. Prue is initially broken by the emotions of the world, but Phoebe more naturally learns to balance the emotions and use those emotions to help others, although I think this would have better portrayed during one of the earlier seasons. Even Phoebe's struggle with evil allows her to truly understand the power of good. Phoebe was the heart of the show, but slowly the things that made Phoebe the heart was given to other characters.

In season 3, Prue becomes the super witch and even starts to physically fights demons at the same level as Phoebe. Prue becoming a martial artist indirectly hurt Phoebe's character. Because Phoebe didn't have an active power to defend herself, she harnessed a dedication to defending herself, her sisters and innocents in learning martial arts. This shows tremendous dedication, effort and passion on Phoebe's part to her craft. However, Prue being able to fight at an equal footing to Phoebe overnight and being able to magically attack opponents with telekinesis made Phoebe's once unique contribution to the sisterhood seem redundant. This is even more evidenced when Prue would sometimes use her telekinesis to levitate herself to add to her offensive qualities.

It is also in the 3rd season when the show plants the seed that Piper is more natural at potions than Phoebe. In Prewitched, Grams is looking at Piper as she unknowingly helps Grams brew a potion to strip the sisters of their powers. Piper naturally knows what' to put in the potion and how much because of what she saw Grams put in there beforehand. Then in the 4th season, there is dialogue in an episode - I apologize because I'm not sure which one off the top of my head, but I can research if someone needs more evidence - that Piper is the most natural at potions. I remember - even during the original run - that this hit me off-guard because before Phoebe was seen as the one who worked most at the craft and thus was the best at it.

 

Phoebe's importance to the show is lessened even more with the inclusion of Paige - who then becomes the heart of the show. Phoebe is the sister who is seen as the one who most naturally is able to help others and the one who is the most fulfilled as to how she helps others. However, as the show focused more on the Phoebe/Cole dynamic in the 4th season, Paige took over this role. It is Paige, and not Phoebe, who helps Piper the most through her loss of Prue. Paige helps Piper to see that Piper is angry at Prue for leaving her, and only through accepting that anger can she move pass it and forgive Prue. Even in early season 4, it is Paige who we see using her street smarts in combination with her magic. For example, in Hell Hath No Fury, Paige is the one who comes up with the idea of changing the Call a Lost Witch to Call a Lost Sister and even adding Cole's blood to make the call stronger to get Piper's attention. That is an idea that at one point would have come from Phoebe. Paige, not Phoebe, in the 5th season is the one who strips Cole of his powers in the 5th season to free him from his obsession and pain, and she is the only one concerned of what will happen to Cole once they give him back his demonic powers to stop Barbas. Paige, not Phoebe, is not the one who feels like the outsider who constantly has to prove herself and thus is the one who has a special sympathy for Cole because of that connection. Hence, why she is the last one to leave the penthouse and wish Cole a happy birthday. She is the one who now understands suffering and connects with suffering and thus is the one who feels the most accountable to helping people escape that suffering. Lastly, in the 5th season, Paige is the one dedicating herself to the craft and is the one we see actively improving her spellcasting and potion making skills to the point that she is the go to for demonic issues. She is doing this - not for personal gain - but because she truly wants to make the world a safer and thus better place.I also think Paige's issues with alcohol also served a similar purpose to Phoebe's struggle with evil. Phoebe lost herself to evil/Paige lost herself to alcohol, these events are supposed to show how they both believe in the power of redemption; however, after the fifth season, I can't think of many instances of Phoebe's fear of evil being evil coming up. And even during the fifth season she seems to be struggling with the idea of Cole's redemption. However Paige drinking problem is referenced even the in the 7th season and in the 8th season Payback's a Witch focuses on her and Henry's belief in a man's redemption. 

 

For me, Centennial Charmed is a powerful moment for Paige because it solidifies her new position as the heart of the show. This is not a concerted effort from the producers or the writers or even the actresses, but a slow progression that included taking parts of Phoebe that made her unique and giving it to the other sisters - not just Paige - and the focus the show gave Paige in honing her craft, dealing with loss, her drinking and not defining Paige through a great love - Leo or Cole - it helped to define Paige as a loving, caring, streetsmart woman whose inner whitelighter and tragic past helped her to be able to sense pain and give comfort in a way no normal mortal could.

[Apprentice79]

I have always felt that Phoebe's future storylines were transferred to Paige, once Prue was killed off and Paige came onto the show..I have always preferred the original power of 3...I lament how awesome and powerful that they were going to be....

Edited July 20, 2016 by Apprentice79

[Rockstar99435]

I just finished up season 6. I love and hate this season. I love Chris and his whole storyline, but this is also the season that introduced the idea that sisters need to be punished for not wanting to risk their lives anymore while Richard and his family are allowed to use their magic to have a giant magic family feud in public. Phoebe uses magic to find demons and is only seen by a possessed person who was only there in order to catch the sisters using magic and therefore Phoebe deserves to have her powers stripped, but Richard's family can throw energy balls across the street in the middle of the day and get to keep their powers because why? And why is it easier for the Cleaners to frame Darryl for murder and speed up time to his execution even though they know he's innocent and they're supposed to be neutral than to wipe all memory of the Charmed Ones from Sheridan's memory?

Anyhow, I'll stick with the Chris stuff because I liked that storyline. I do wish that they had revealed the truth earlier in the season and we would've got more scenes of adult Chris and Piper bonding. We didn't get much of them together and I really liked their scenes. I also wish there had been a couple of scenes to hint at who Chris was with call backs to the previous seasons. 4evaQuez mentioned the scene when Piper added ingredients to Gram's potion based on what was already in there and Chris could've done something similar with Phoebe or Paige. I also think he should've known how to open the secret drawer that Prue and Piper used to prove to younger them that they could be trusted. And as cheesy as it probably would've been, I really wanted to see a scene where Chris gets really excited because Piper made her super double chocolate chip cookies (or some other Mom comfort food). 

Unpopular opinion: I don't mind Magic School. I know it was totally a Harry Potter rip off, but they needed a good in-story place to send the boys so the audience wasn't constantly having to worry about their safety. Also, Magic School was a good way to tie in more magical storylines. But I think that instead of presenting it as a place that had been teaching the magical youth for centuries that Grams and Patty just never mentioned, it should've been presented as "as cameras and other technology continue to improve, our risk of exposure will exponentially increase so Gideon decided to build a place where children and teens could stay until they learn how to control their emotions/powers enough that they won't accidentally use their powers in public, end up on youtube, and get erased from existence by the Cleaners." The teens could be angry that they aren't being given the same level of trust that their parents/grandparents/older siblings were given and the naysaying Elders could feel that it is unnecessary because they've never needed a place that before. Also I think Piper should've met and befriended another witch mom from the preschool class. I think a big part of what Piper means when she whines about having a normal life is having people that she doesn't have to censor herself for. Like with the marriage counselor, if she wants to talk to her non-magic friends, she has to leave out or use metaphors to describe most of her problems. Having another mom that she can to go to ask for advice, vent to, and/or be excited about milestones etc. without having to leave out the fact that Wyatt can orb would be really good for her. She can share some of that with her sisters and Leo but they won't have any practical advice from experience.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Rockstar99435
fixing typos

[Lady Calypso]

47 minutes ago, Rockstar99435 said:

 

I just finished up season 6. I love and hate this season. I love Chris and his whole storyline, but this is also the season that introduced the idea that sisters need to be punished for not wanting to risk their lives anymore while Richard and his family are allowed to use their magic to have a giant magic family feud in public. Phoebe uses magic to find demons and is only seen by a possessed person who was only there in order to catch the sisters using magic and therefore Phoebe deserves to have her powers stripped, but Richard's family can throw energy balls across the street in the middle of the day and get to keep their powers because why? And why is it easier for the Cleaners to frame Darryl for murder and speed up time to his execution even though they know he's innocent and they're supposed to be neutral than to wipe all memory of the Charmed Ones from Sheridan's memory?

 

I will say that, although I love season 6 for many of the same reasons that you state, they introduce a lot more inconsistencies this season (the Cleaners were a big one....and Crimes was not a strong episode because of your reasons stated).

I...I actually loved the idea of Magic School. I was about 11 when this season first aired, and I was really into Harry Potter during this time, so getting to watch Magic School be a thing was just fascinating to me. It was one 'retcon'/'oops we just made this up now so here's a reason why Magic School was never brought up' that worked. Wyatt couldn't go to a normal school, that much was clear the moment they had Piper give birth to the most Powerful Magical Being Ever (even though that was supposed to be the Charmed Ones, so I call bullshit on that). So having them create a magic school worked really well....until they destroyed it by having demons live there by the final season. 

Chris could have developed more, that's for sure. I love the guy and he's my second favourite male character on the show (behind Cole, actually...and then Henry's trailing not far behind), but they were kind of inconsistent with him, ESPECIALLY after the truth was revealed. Sometimes I wonder what would have happened in Phoebe had not found out about Chris being a Halliwell until later on. How would have Chris gotten his parents to have sex without the help of Phoebe and Paige? I guess he would have just used a love potion or whatever, but how would things play out differently if he hadn't been found out when he did? What would have happened, on the other hand, if Chris had told them upfront about him being their son from the future? Yes, that goes against his character, but if they had discovered it very quickly, how would things have changed? Obviously a lot, but I like thinking about what could have been, if we had gotten more bonding moments, and if season six would have played out differently.

There was a lot Charmed missed, in general. More friends, for example, could have helped. More witches could have been very helpful as well. Not having Wyatt as the Powerful Being. More growth in magic. It's why this show is not perfect. Yet, I love it even for all its imperfections.

[iMonrey]

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Phoebe deserves to have her powers stripped, but Richard's family can throw energy balls across the street in the middle of the day and get to keep their powers because why? 

At the time I recall the producers saying they de-powered Phoebe for budgetary reasons, but that explanation never held water to me. Her premonitions were simply replays of already filmed scenes, her levitation only required her to be lifted on a wire and her empath power was nothing more than a musical sound effect. Meanwhile Paige and Leo were orbing all over the place and Piper was blowing stuff up right and left. I have to think those special effects were much more costly and time consuming than anything Phoebe had to do. 

I absolutely, positively loathed magic school and consider Season 6 the point where the show really fell apart. Chris was the sole redeeming feature of that season. I think your ideas for Magic School, Lady Calypso, would have better served its function. As it was, unfortunately, it made everyone who worked at the school or attended the school look ten times more powerful than any of the Charmed Ones. The students were all "learning" the innate powers the Charmed Ones were supposed to have been born with like levitation, telekinesis, etc. How were the Charmed Ones supposed to be the "most powerful witches in the world" with their four or five lame powers (especially Phoebe's) versus an entire school full of magical students that could use all the same powers and more?

Then there's the fact that Leo and Piper had to break up because he'd become an Elder and Elders don't live "down here" yet he spends the entirety of Season 6 orbing in and out like he always had in the first five seasons. And by the end of the season Gideon and other Elders are constantly shown to be on earth as well. 

I never really understood the resolution for saving Wyatt from turning evil, either. Presumably he managed to escape from Gideon in the original timeline since we're shown flash forwards where he's an adult so what the hell happened to him that was different after Leo killed Gideon? He'd still been kidnapped and held in the underworld and threatened by demons. 

Granted, Season 7 and 8 were even worse because they didn't have Chris to save them, but Season 6 was really the beginning of the end.

[amensisterfriend]

What if we had to pick just ONE favorite and least favorite episode from each of the first five seasons? Which would you choose?!

Circling back around to the interesting conversation about how the more disappointing aspects of the Piper/Leo romance, I'm rewatching S2 now (thank you, TNT!) and starting to agree with those who expressed the very unpopular opinion that she may as well have chosen Dan. Sure, he didn't have much of an actual personality, but neither did, like, 97% of love interests on this show :) He was actually more of a direct, candid and 'says what he means, goes for what he wants' straight shooter than Leo in a lot of ways, though, and as others have said it's more true to Piper's character to want the stable, healthy life a relationship with Dan offered. Leo was (IMO, obviously) just as dull, if not more so, but just came with a whole slew of neverending complications that not even a couple with far more passion, connection etc. than they had could easily overcome :)  On top of all that, I actually really like the idea of a witch/mortal pairing throughout more of the series, and while we did get to see some of that with Andy-Prue and Paige-Henry, we got relatively few scenes of those couples once they found out about the Halliwells. 

On another note, I just have to reiterate that Phoebe is just so freaking lovable to me in S1 and S2. Like it's not even funny how much I love watching that character in those early seasons. 

And while I've rambled about why S2 is probably my least favorite of the show's first five seasons, I still find it worth rewatching. I just love this show so much more than I should!  

Edited July 21, 2016 by amensisterfriend

[4evaQuez]

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I never really understood the resolution for saving Wyatt from turning evil, either. Presumably he managed to escape from Gideon in the original timeline since we're shown flash forwards where he's an adult so what the hell happened to him that was different after Leo killed Gideon? He'd still been kidnapped and held in the underworld and threatened by demons. 

I never understood this either. I remember being really, really disappointed with the season finale and season as a whole. Partly because of this resolution. I honestly thought the show was building up to a finale that Wyatt was never supposed to be the child Piper had. I remember while watching the 6th season, the foundation seemed to be planted in the 5th season. First, Wyatt was born in the house about the nexus, so similar to Phoebe, he should always struggle with his evil side. On top of that, in the 5th season in Necromancing the Stone, Grams says that something must have gone wrong. That Wyatt wasn't the child Piper was supposed to have. Also in Cat House, Phoebe and Paige step on the Bride and Groom cake topper - which of course is to foreshadow the end of Piper/Leo in the season finale - but it also reinforces how going to the past can change the future.

I thought with the foundation set, the show was going to go in a, "one of the many times you all went to the past to save the future scenarios, you ended up changing something that irreparably changed your future. Piper, the only way to save Wyatt from evil is to rectify that thing in the past, so Wyatt will never be born and you can get the daughter, Prudence Melinda, you were meant to have." This would have of course created a huge dilemma for the Charmed Ones while sticking to the show's theme that magic has consequences. I thought we were being set up for a magnificent winale - with maybe a showdown between Evil Wyatt and the Charmed ones that will show once and for all that the Charmed ones - and not Wyatt - are the ultimate force of magic ever.

Sadly, I flew entirely too close to the sun with that reasoning.

Lastly, I actually hate they made Gideon an elder. I really like the often talked about and eternally felt but not seen presence of the elders. It also meant the overpowering of elders in later seasons - they could orb, become invisible, shoot lightening, telekinesis, and didn't Gideon even conjure an knife. Why were the Charmed ones needed. I wished they'd made Gideon a sage. A sage in the Charmed one could be described as an extremely experienced and powerful witch and only the a select few could ever rise to those ranks while still being less powerful than the Charmed ones. This could still explain why he would be chosen to head up Magic School, and I think it could have prevented the further demonization of the elders in the 7th season.

[Lady Calypso]

35 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I never really understood the resolution for saving Wyatt from turning evil, either. Presumably he managed to escape from Gideon in the original timeline since we're shown flash forwards where he's an adult so what the hell happened to him that was different after Leo killed Gideon? He'd still been kidnapped and held in the underworld and threatened by demons. 

Yeah, this was an issue by 11 year old brain recognized as well. So, Wyatt got turned evil because....he was trapped in the Underworld for weeks? Really? That's what gets him turned? Only a few weeks, mind you. Not a few months, not a couple of years, but a 'few weeks'. I just find that really hard to believe that a few weeks of one year old Wyatt being trapped in the Underworld got him turned. He wouldn't have even remembered that particular time, UNLESS a demon actually used magic or some sort of power to slowly warp his mind over time.

I would have bought a Nexus storyline, like Gideon trying to destroy the Nexus because he believes that would be the source of Wyatt turning evil, only to accidentally cause a bigger problem and that somehow turns him.

Also, it would have been nice if the sisters actually got to meet evil Wyatt in season 6. At least they got the chance in season 7. Also part of me wished that future Chris would have come back in that same episode in season 7. Hey, it could have been a whole lot of fun and I would have loved the episode! 

[amensisterfriend]

ETA more Phoebe-related rambling since I'm always trying to figure out why I have so much love for a character that most fans hate: It's so true what you guys said about her being the heart of their trio in those early seasons. Piper is more of a nurturer and Prue is more of a protector, but Phoebe's so warm, spirited, enthusiastic and loving. Like she just cares SO much,  and not just about herself---she cares about her sisters, about the innocents, about being the best witches they can be, and she does things out of genuine passion rather than duty. 

Also, add me to the minority who enjoyed the ever so cleverly named 'Magic School' despite it not living up to its potential and being such an embarrassingly blatant Harry Potter ripoff. I would have loved to see a short spinoff of Henry and Paige trying to run that place and all the wayward teens they encountered there.  

Edited July 21, 2016 by amensisterfriend

[amensisterfriend]

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I never understood this either. I remember being really, really disappointed with the season finale and season as a whole. Partly because of this resolution. I honestly thought the show was building up to a finale that Wyatt was never supposed to be the child Piper had. I remember while watching the 6th season, the foundation seemed to be planted in the 5th season. First, Wyatt was born in the house about the nexus, so similar to Phoebe, he should always struggle with his evil side. On top of that, in the 5th season in Necromancing the Stone, Grams says that something must have gone wrong. That Wyatt wasn't the child Piper was supposed to have. Also in Cat House, Phoebe and Paige step on the Bride and Groom cake topper - which of course is to foreshadow the end of Piper/Leo in the season finale - but it also reinforces how going to the past can change the future.

I thought with the foundation set, the show was going to go in a, "one of the many times you all went to the past to save the future scenarios, you ended up changing something that irreparably changed your future. Piper, the only way to save Wyatt from evil is to rectify that thing in the past, so Wyatt will never be born and you can get the daughter, Prudence Melinda, you were meant to have." This would have of course created a huge dilemma for the Charmed Ones while sticking to the show's theme that magic has consequences.

 

You kind of just blew my mind with all this. It's a brilliant idea and far better than what we got in reality :)