All Episodes Talk: Charmed and Wiccan

[Eva Marie]

I'm watching it all out of order: S2, then 4, then 7, now into 5. I already know all the plot-lines for other seasons though, because this isn't a show where spoilers matter all that much.

Billy Zane was a hoot and his arc was so emotionally satisfying. He's truly the most successful C-list actor of all time, because somewhere among all his "Zombie World 5" type of credits he managed to get himself onto Titanic, Twin Peaks, this AND the Nicole Kidman break-out Dead Calm.

Edited February 24, 2018 by Eva Marie

[Eva Marie]

Crikey, he was in Back to the Future as well!!

[helenamonster]

2 hours ago, Eva Marie said:

All the familiar face spotting is loads of fun on this show. I'm only 3 and a bit seasons in and already there's a long list:

Billy Zane, Charisma Carpenter, Jon Hamm, Dean Norris, Amy Adams, Justin Baldoni (now there's an example of very pretty and decidedly UNsexy man), the principal and 'Liz' off GG, 'Amber' from House, Mad Men and Desperate Housewives.

Someone said that the 4 leads + JM are some of the most gorgeous people Hollywood's produced. But it's interesting that, save for Alyssa, all of them are distinct-looking.

Holly is your typical girl-next-door, but diminutive. Shannen has an asymmetrical Picasso face. Rose has the funny widely set eyes and JM has the bizarre brows (although they might be more normal if he eased up on the plucking just a tad!...and the botox later on. The same can be said for Rose). Alyssa's the only conventional beauty.

Amy Adams was everywhere in the early '00s--she honestly might be the reigning Retroactive Recognition champion. Charmed, The West Wing, The Office, That '70s Show, Buffy, Smallville...girl had hustle and it has seriously paid off.

I don't think Rose has had botox. She had two pretty serious car accidents right after Charmed ended, one of which the impact caused her glasses to slam back into her face and slice under her eye. I think the sort of botox-looking paralysis on that one side of her face is a result of all the corrective surgeries she's had since.

[Esmeralda]

If only you knew how much I wish that Cole had been a lot more like Drake!  ESPECIALLY if both were warlocks rather than demons!

[Eva Marie]

My bad about Rose - that's a perfectly legitimate reason. Julian has no such excuse that I'm aware of...and he played a plastic surgeon for 7 years!! Oh the irony....And it's not like he needs the work with his family inheritance. Nothing but narcissism in his case.

Drake was such a joy that I wish he's been a regular on the show (Charisma Carpenter too. In fact, they'd make a perfect couple with their shared enthusiasm for the small joys of being human).

Anne Dudek was similarly everywhere in the mid-00s as well. I'm quite fond of her: she's a memorable character actress.

[Eva Marie]

There were also 2 Twin Peaks faces in S2: "Leland" & "Bobby".

[Eva Marie]

Just watched Fifth Halliwell and I'm left stunned by it: so many thoughts.

1) The whole thing feels a 42 min. long Nip/Tuck audition tape for JM (even a posh car is there!)

2) Shocked by the Paige & Cole torture scene. It feels like something too sadistic to belong on this show.

3)I finally saw what Esmeralda said about AM and JM enjoying themselves far too much in all their sexy scenes, and my - did this ep milk that. Again, it feels like it belongs to a different show.

4) Piper getting orally serviced!!! Yay! :-))) How did they smuggle this past the censors back in the day??? A horny Piper seems like the best Piper :-)

5) Great metaphor for reproductive coercion and birth control sabotage. They didn't even try cushioning it in any way.

[Esmeralda]

If you've jumped around, then you know about Wyatt.  This episode got a lot of fans thinking that the chocolate is why Piper conceived Wyatt and why he was a boy and why he was evil and that he was the Phoetus, the fan-name for Cole and Phoebe's unborn child.  I thought so the first time I watched until someone pointed out that all the chocolate did was make Phoebe able to accept demon seed and whatever Leo was shooting, it wasn't demon seed!

*sigh* Enjoy seeing Piper orally serviced while you can - it won't happen very often after this as she turns Leo into her own little errand boy.  I don't think she even got orally serviced when she conceived Chris.

Hoping I didn't do any spoiling with that.  If I did and you don't like it, let me know and I'll keep those sort of comments to myself... But all of this is part of why I don't like the latter seasons, starting with these storylines.

And unfortunately I think the reboot is going to be more like the latter seasons than the earlier ones.

Edited February 25, 2018 by Esmeralda

[helenamonster]

3 hours ago, Eva Marie said:

Just watched Fifth Halliwell and I'm left stunned by it: so many thoughts.

1) The whole thing feels a 42 min. long Nip/Tuck audition tape for JM (even a posh car is there!)

2) Shocked by the Paige & Cole torture scene. It feels like something too sadistic to belong on this show.

3)I finally saw what Esmeralda said about AM and JM enjoying themselves far too much in all their sexy scenes, and my - did this ep milk that. Again, it feels like it belongs to a different show.

4) Piper getting orally serviced!!! Yay! :-))) How did they smuggle this past the censors back in the day??? A horny Piper seems like the best Piper :-)

5) Great metaphor for reproductive coercion and birth control sabotage. They didn't even try cushioning it in any way.

"The Fifth Halliwheel" has always been my personal favorite episode and I've never really been able to explain why, but I think a lot of this post is helping me to figure it out. It's a really, really dark episode...even smack in the middle of the show's darkest season I think it stands out as particularly bleak. A lot of it feels like a different show entirely, and maybe it's not so much my favorite as just an episode that stands as an outlier and left a serious impression on me.

[Eva Marie]

Esmeralda, feel free to spoil away! Plot isn't really an issue on this show. You're right - I think that the chocolate only worked as an aphrodisiac for Piper because that was the side effect. The main effect was to make a demon baby which was not genetically Phoebe's or Cole's (this is what The Seer said when she transferred the fetus to her own body).

[Esmeralda]

No, the baby *was* genetically Cole's and Phoebe's.  The chocolate made it possible for Phoebe's body to accept demon seed, since demons are a different species than witches.  But it was Cole's semen and Phoebe's egg that created what we fans call "The Phoetus" - AND what must've happened to allow Elizabeth to conceive Cole. The Seer said it would be hers because she saw herself raising the child as the most evil Source that ever lived.  Of course, that's not what happened - and I've never been quite sure why she didn't see that bringing the child into her body would cause her own death.  One of the many "HUH?" parts of S4 which is why the Phoebe-Cole-Source storyline is my least-favorite in Charmed with the Chris-Wyatt, the Billie-Christy and the Dan-Piper-Leo ones right behind it.

At least that's the way I interpret what happened. Did anyone else see it otherwise?

[Eva Marie]

Yeah, Fifth Halliwell felt like a different genre to the rest of Charmed. It was a combo of Sex and the City and a horror film. That's where Charmed could've gone if it was a little braver, but I'm actually glad that it didn't. The reason being is that there are plenty of overly graphic shows sadistic towards women these days, but so few successful dramedies have ever been made. Charmed is at its best when it remembers that it's an Aaron Spelling show at heart: about a bunch of pretty people saying witty things and doing mildly entertaining stunts, all in a warm fluffy tone.

[Guest]

On 26/02/2018 at 10:06 AM, Eva Marie said:

Esmeralda, feel free to spoil away! Plot isn't really an issue on this show. You're right - I think that the chocolate only worked as an aphrodisiac for Piper because that was the side effect. The main effect was to make a demon baby which was not genetically Phoebe's or Cole's (this is what The Seer said when she transferred the fetus to her own body).

The baby was genetically Phoebe and Cole's. 

The Seer, however, mixed her own blood into Phoebe's tonics to give her a magical link to the baby as it's later revealed her entire vision from the start and her mission from the beginning was for Cole to be vanquished by the Charmed Ones, The Seer take the child, kill the Charmed Ones and rule the Underworld. 

[Eva Marie]

Hmm, so why didn't The Seer just get it on with Cole herself to conceive the spawn? Wouldn't that rid of the pesky human portion of the fetus? Surely if she had the 'plumbing' to gestate it, she was capable of conceiving it too? Yeah, I know I shouldn't get into that kind of logic with this show lol

[Esmeralda]

LOL, you're exactly right about that.

She obviously wanted a baby that was part Source (the reason she brought the Hollow box and made sure the Source's powers went into Cole) and part Charmed (Phoebe) thinking that if she raised it, it would be the most evil child ever.

And it's possible that although she could have sex, the was something wrong with her ovaries so although her womb was fine, she couldn't conceive a child on her own. The Seer might have been one of those women, so by waiting until Phoebe was almost at term and then stealing it, she could carry it - probably have it via c-section.  

Edited March 1, 2018 by Esmeralda

[helenamonster]

There was also the caveat that Real Cole was still "in there" somewhere and probably wouldn't have been interested in getting it on with the Seer.

I suppose she could have cast a spell on him or something to make him do it but that would have taken the story down a rapey path that it didn't need to go.

[Commando Cody]

I re-watched the episode with Bruce Campbell this morning. I kind of think I only saw it in its original run, because I couldn't remember how it ended.  So, it was kind of like watching it for the first time. I didn't like the idea of blackmail, but I did enjoy seeing Bruce in this episode and having some human input instead of some long distant council of old men giving all the directions. If the episode hadn't ended the way they did, I would have been on board with Bruce and his research. 

[Eva Marie]

On Kyra and Phoebe:

We're so starved of seeing female friendship outside the sisters on this show, that it can feel sexual when it isn't. There's also the fact that Alyssa, just like Julian, had so much sex in her general presence that she could project it onto anyone around her. If anyone gave off a gay vibe - it was Paige. I saw her interact with her whitelighter charge in S7 and my 1st thought was: is she on a date with this lady? 

As for the Cole/Pru match-up - it wouldn't have worked despite the chemistry because they're a different kind of actors. Shannen is a straight dramatic actress, while AM and JM are both the same kind of sexy/funny/soapy/charismatic kind of performers. In fact, they BOTH give off an old-fashioned MGM sort of vibe in their talents - that's why I enjoyed the ep where they're possessed  by 50s ghosts!:-)

Shannen and Rose remind you how much voice matters to actors. Shannen had this soothing, husky timber, while Rose's performance was always undermined by her whiny nasal tone (which she couldn't help).

Edited March 5, 2018 by Eva Marie

[Eva Marie]

I've looked around the fandom and I'm honestly stumped as to why Julian's acting is so highly regarded. He is not even remotely a dramatic actor - he can't emote AT ALL (with the exception of anger which he always overplays without). There were several moments on the show where I wanted to yell at the screen: "Emote, dammnit!". The most notable of those was the siren ep - he should've looked horrified when he realizes he almost killed Phoebe. Nope - he's just blank. At other times he mugs like crazy. In S3 both he and Alyssa were just plain soapy in 2 scenes.

He's overwhelmingly charismatic however, which I've seen confused with good dramatic acting before. If I had to pick the best male actor on the show, that honour would go to Oded Fehr. I'd even put "Kyle" above Julian on the drama front. There's a gulf of difference between charismatic performances and skilled performances. (Just disclosing now that I'm VERY picky about acting...)

Edited March 5, 2018 by Eva Marie

[iknowyouknow]

I agree about JM's acting being mediocre, at least on this show. And even some of that touted charisma comes off as kind of smarmy to me. (Though perhaps Cole, even when "good", is supposed to come off as somewhat smarmy?) That said, I do get his appeal and can see how his comparative intensity and sex appeal would be a welcome contrast to Brian Kraus's Leo, who to me is a duller and flatter character written as having even less personality and played by an even more wooden actor with pretty much zero charisma or energy imo. I didn't like Cole, but I do feel like he was the only male character with even a trace of personality. And his relationship with Phoebe at least had a little interest value to me at first despite or because of how screwed up it is, while Piper and Leo always seem mutually miserable in a painfully boring, somewhat dysfunctional relationship that lacks chemistry or passion. Just my thoughts!

Also, Prue and Paige are my favorites. I wish they'd been on the show at the same time.

[Eva Marie]

I would've cast Oded as Cole, found a way to keep Billy Zane around for longer, and then JM could've been Darryl. He could've been the flirty, funny, loyal detective with limited screen-time, and that wouldn't have pushed him outside of his acting range and overloaded the viewers with smarminess. 

Young JM was what movie stars used to be like: entertaining eye candy with out sized screen presence and erotic energy. If they were still like that - I'd still be watching movies. He was what Brad Pitt and all the current listless "heartthrobs" really should be like. Quality TV has sucked not just all the talent out of cinema, but all the hotties too (speaking for the men). My suspicion is that's the reason why the Charmed fans are so loyal to his casting: we're so bloody starved of this kind of old-fashioned, truly sexy stars because they're nowhere to be found on the big screen anymore. It makes for a lot of leeway with the acting standard.

I understand why Krause was cast as Leo: he has a sweet, light energy that's perfect for simmering in the background. Which would've been fine if Holly wasn't such a strong actress or if they were never involved in a love plot. She really needed someone actually talented to bounce off. The 1st Cupid might've worked as Leo. Overall the casting director on this show was like Leo as a whitelighter: sleeping on the job much of the time!;-)

Edited March 6, 2018 by Eva Marie

[Eva Marie]

See, that's the thing with JM: he's never wooden. In fact, he's so dynamic that it takes you a while to realize how little he's actually expressing.

When I think 'wooden' - I think of Duchovny on the X-files. You could've replaced the guy with a line-reading robot and it wouldn't have made any difference!

Edited March 6, 2018 by Eva Marie

[EarlGreyTea]

On 3/5/2018 at 12:44 PM, iknowyouknow said:

I agree about JM's acting being mediocre, at least on this show. And even some of that touted charisma comes off as kind of smarmy to me. (Though perhaps Cole, even when "good", is supposed to come off as somewhat smarmy?) That said, I do get his appeal and can see how his comparative intensity and sex appeal would be a welcome contrast to Brian Kraus's Leo, who to me is a duller and flatter character written as having even less personality and played by an even more wooden actor with pretty much zero charisma or energy imo. I didn't like Cole, but I do feel like he was the only male character with even a trace of personality. And his relationship with Phoebe at least had a little interest value to me at first despite or because of how screwed up it is, while Piper and Leo always seem mutually miserable in a painfully boring, somewhat dysfunctional relationship that lacks chemistry or passion. Just my thoughts!

Also, Prue and Paige are my favorites. I wish they'd been on the show at the same time.

I think what Julian excelled at in the role was twofold: charisma and chemistry. I was struck by what a total blank slate Cole was when they took him out of his DA role and then stripped his powers. And when Phoebe described him in the BoS, all she could say about him was that he was good in bed, liked steak, and liked salsa dancing. Deep. I just couldn't imagine him spending a lifetime with Phoebe even before he became the Source. He needed a backstory, too. The sex must have been otherworldly (heh) to make Phoebe so sprung on him. And indeed, it was heavily implied that it was.

And yet he was intensely watchable. A textbook case (to me) of the camera loving a person. He worked for Paige for about a day, and I still think that was a missed opportunity to give the character something to do besides pine for Phoebe. And speaking of Phoebe, Cole's saving grace was Julian's chemistry with and love for Phoebe. The guy did longing well, and he did bedroom eyes well. Not much more you can ask for on a WB show.

Contrast that to Leo, who was so intensely dull. Imagine someone as dynamic as JM in the Leo role. It might have made him interesting and given him a few more layers. I also thought Piper was far and away the dullest sister, and thus fast-forwarded their scenes a lot. I hated how whiny she got about not being able to live a normal life. It was understandable, but after the millionth episode of her throwing a fit about being a witch, I was totally over it.

Edited March 7, 2018 by EarlGreyTea

[Eva Marie]

Yeah, the camera adores Julian. The double-edged sword of being so charismatic onscreen is that your every acting mistake is magnified because everyone is watching you intensely. The reason I was so impressed with Oded is that he could do it all: be smartly sexy, villainous AND act well. I feel like he and Billy Zane retroactively upstaged JM as attractive demons. Julian as Leo might only have worked as a prop for Holly to spar against - like they did brilliantly in 7-Year Witch. When it came to dramatic chops however - she would've wiped the floor with him in the same way that she did with Brian.

The mind-blowing sex was telegraphed like a giant billboard. I reckon Phoebe's true sexual orientation was towards demons: Cole, Drake and Kyra according to some people! lol

As for the acting standard on WB/CW - Jane the Virgin set a new standard for them: the entire cast (save for Baldoni) is top notch, with amazing ensemble chemistry and several wins/noms for acting. So I'm retroactively judging Charmed on a higher level than I would've at the time of airing.

Edited March 7, 2018 by Eva Marie

[Eva Marie]

I never minded the blankness of Cole as a character because I don't care for an abuser being interesting. Theirs was a textbook abusive relationship.

[Eva Marie]

Ha, I just realised what Cole was doing to Phoebe in Enter the Demon: "No nookie for you until you eat your veggies and do the training!" Motivational strategy :-))

[Esmeralda]

On 3/6/2018 at 2:05 AM, Eva Marie said:

See, that's the thing with JM: he's never wooden. In fact, he's so dynamic that it takes you a while to realize how little he's actually expressing.

When I think 'wooden' - I think of Duchovny on the X-files. You could've replaced the guy with a line-reading robot and it wouldn't have made any difference!

Think of the differences between Julian and Drew Fuller...now FULLER is one who is great to look at but whose acting is pure wooden, while the complex character of Chris needed so much more. 

[Eva Marie]

I haven't seen Fuller yet. My specific problem with Julian is his lack of emotion. He had all these close-ups where he should've looked suspicious, scared, confused etc. He looked blank in all of them. In fact, there're scenes where he's barely repressing the giggles. In terms of expressions he could do 'bedroom eyes' and 'laughing eyes' and that was it. He's an unusual case in the sense that he can act in other ways - he just can't emote. Usually the ones that can't emote suck at everything else too and end up wooden.

[Esmeralda]

Well, when you reach Season Six, I'll be very curious to see what you think of Chris and Drew Fuller's portrayal of him.  Sorry, but I thoroughly enjoyed JM's acting, but I'm sure that was his charisma shining through.  It didn't help that I totally hated his character mainly due to how he ruined my favorite sister, Phoebs, who turned into PhoeME when she lied to her sisters about vanquishing Cole.  I think the Power of Three should've vanished at that moment and never return...

[Eva Marie]

Why are you apologising? I enjoyed him thoroughly too. Emotion isn't everything: in fact, the actors that can do it easily often have a tendency to to over-emote. He's an interesting, creative performer and that helps compensate. It's just that I'm never an uncritical fan of anybody. 

And yeah, the smarminess was tough to get past for a LONG time for me. It's his default setting. Now I'm used to it, so I don't even see it anymore for the most part.

Oh, and I got to Centennial Charmed and he's finally expressing something! Hurrah! The Importance of Being Phoebe was just painful. I wish I could get the lap dance images out of my head. The sexism in those 2 eps is just on steroids...

Edited March 8, 2018 by Eva Marie

[Eva Marie]

I love how Cole is rocking his Depression Coat in his final days - the cream one. He really does look pitiful in it!

...and Depression Stubble. Yep - an ungroomed Cole is a deeply troubled Cole. 1st thing he did after being healed from nearly dying by Leo is to run and shave!! LOL LOL LOL 

Edited March 10, 2018 by Eva Marie

[Guest]

On 07/03/2018 at 1:23 PM, Eva Marie said:

I haven't seen Fuller yet. My specific problem with Julian is his lack of emotion. He had all these close-ups where he should've looked suspicious, scared, confused etc. He looked blank in all of them. In fact, there're scenes where he's barely repressing the giggles. In terms of expressions he could do 'bedroom eyes' and 'laughing eyes' and that was it. He's an unusual case in the sense that he can act in other ways - he just can't emote. Usually the ones that can't emote suck at everything else too and end up wooden.

I kind of see what you mean. 

The scene when he's confessing everything to Phoebe in Sleuthing with the Enemy wasn't his best moment. 

You can kind of see him desperately trying to squeeze out some kind of tear or sound upset in his voice and, thinking about it, I don't think he had a crying scene once outside of that. Beyond maybe when Paige forces him to feel Phoebe's broken heart. 

So, it probably is that he's not wooden, he can definitely act. But emoting is his weak spot. 

 

Edit - And actually it's just come to me, Rose McGowan (when she's actually trying) does emoting so well. When she's telling her sisters about how her parents died was probably her best damn scene in the entire 5 years she was there. And yet, generally, was quite a poor actress across the board. 

But it's why it frustrated me that you could see she can emote well in scenes like that and then in scenes like the one where Phoebe gets shot in the season 6 finale and she's shouting for help like she has a paper jam in her printer. 

 

But, yeah, as actors Rose McGowan and Julian McMahon are like opposites. 

Edited March 11, 2018 by Lost

[Guest]

On 08/03/2018 at 1:13 PM, Eva Marie said:

I love how Cole is rocking his Depression Coat in his final days - the cream one. He really does look pitiful in it!

...and Depression Stubble. Yep - an ungroomed Cole is a deeply troubled Cole. 1st thing he did after being healed from nearly dying by Leo is to run and shave!! LOL LOL LOL 

When was he healed by Leo? 

On 08/03/2018 at 12:54 PM, Eva Marie said:

Why are you apologising? I enjoyed him thoroughly too. Emotion isn't everything: in fact, the actors that can do it easily often have a tendency to to over-emote. He's an interesting, creative performer and that helps compensate. It's just that I'm never an uncritical fan of anybody. 

And yeah, the smarminess was tough to get past for a LONG time for me. It's his default setting. Now I'm used to it, so I don't even see it anymore for the most part.

Oh, and I got to Centennial Charmed and he's finally expressing something! Hurrah! The Importance of Being Phoebe was just painful. I wish I could get the lap dance images out of my head. The sexism in those 2 eps is just on steroids...

I suppose the one thing you could say for it, is that it was one of the few occasions Charmed portrayed the sexism as sexism, something the villain was doing that definitely wasn't ok. 

The smarminess works, at least for me. A celebrated demon for 100 years that would do a lot fo anybody's ego. Lmao. 

Also, it's the trait that is prevailing within him and helps you retain the sense that it is the same completely corrupted being whether he be Belthazor, The Source, human, Avatar, weird mesh of everything from the wasteland, he was always the same completely broken and corrupted Evil. That also helps with the way in which his character is written out if you don't think of him as a genuine human capable of saving, which I don't feel he ever was. 

[Esmeralda]

On 3/8/2018 at 6:54 AM, Eva Marie said:

Why are you apologising? I enjoyed him thoroughly too. Emotion isn't everything: in fact, the actors that can do it easily often have a tendency to to over-emote. He's an interesting, creative performer and that helps compensate. It's just that I'm never an uncritical fan of anybody. 

And yeah, the smarminess was tough to get past for a LONG time for me. It's his default setting. Now I'm used to it, so I don't even see it anymore for the most part.

Oh, and I got to Centennial Charmed and he's finally expressing something! Hurrah! The Importance of Being Phoebe was just painful. I wish I could get the lap dance images out of my head. The sexism in those 2 eps is just on steroids...

I've been thinking about this a lot since you posted this and the more I do, the more I realize you're right.  The same way Drew Fuller never showed us what Chris was thinking and therefore made him seem like a little liar, a lot of the problems with Cole in Season Four was Julian's problem where he never used little bits of action to let us know what Cole was thinking so it was impossible to tell if he was actually possessed by the Source and what he was doing was not his fault, or if he was just influenced by the powers of the Source and still made his own choices, so what he did was his fault.  And in both cases, that affects a lot of how I feel towards those seasons.

[Eva Marie]

Yep, JM is an external actor, while Rose is an internal one. Everything outside of emotion looked affected with her, while he was generally natural and made unexpected+funny choices with everything physical - but had zero skills with internal struggle. That's why their torture scene in 5th Halliwell is so amazing: he does the external sociopathic stuff while she emotes all the fear and pain he subjects her to. Seriously - these 2 need to make a horror film together, or some kind of survival story, where he's the stoic one and she's constantly breaking down in panic. ;-)

Edited March 12, 2018 by Eva Marie

[Eva Marie]

No, I don't see him as a wannabe human worth saving because I've seen S7 where we get not 1, but 2 truly sympathetic demons who risk everything to experience humanity even for a short while. In that sense Cole's story was perfectly concluded and Phoebe learnt her lesson. It was so cathartic to hear her say that she felt nothing when she thought she killed him, and that means that she is finally free. It's such a mature choice because abuse stories are sold to young women as romantic all the time these days and that it's admirable to devote their lives to 'fixing the bad boy' - which Phoebe refuses to do anymore. She does not waver once she makes the decision.

Edited March 12, 2018 by Eva Marie

[Eva Marie]

I can bet that the casting process for JM involved no consideration of his acting talents whatsover. It probably went something like this:

"Phoebe needs a tragic romance > let's cast a hunk for her. Oh look - this one's a former model + has TV experience. Ya, he'll do. Wait, the fans now think he's the hottest thing since Clooney on ER and Alyssa is all gushy about him? Ok, we'll just keep him around for a while. Oh, it turns that the guy can act: who'd have thunk?? Let's spin the story till he nabs a better job."

[Eva Marie]

OK, all this jumping around has made really confused about what happened between S3 and 4. (I live in a country where Charmed isn't on Netflix, so I have to source the DVDs from different places which is why I'm watching all out of order)

So did Phoebe trade her soul AGAIN in All Hell Breaks Loose? Would somebody help me make sense of this ep, please?

Edited March 15, 2018 by Eva Marie

[Apprentice79]

4 hours ago, Eva Marie said:

OK, all this jumping around has made really confused about what happened between S3 and 4. (I live in a country where Charmed isn't on Netflix, so I have to source the DVDs from different places which is why I'm watching all out of order)

So did Phoebe trade her soul AGAIN in All Hell Breaks Loose? Would somebody help me make sense of this ep, please?

 

To save Piper's life, the source asked Phoebe to say in the underworld, in exchange, for his help. This would break the power of 3, since, Phoebe would now work for the source. Tempus would reverse time and undo the events of all hell breaks loose.  

I often wonder had Prue lived, how Prue and Piper would be working together to break Phoebe out of the underworld..

Edited March 15, 2018 by Apprentice79

[Esmeralda]

Good luck making sense out of either 'All Hell Breaks Loose' or what happened between.  Because Kern did't know that Shannen had control of her image he had no idea that once she was fired, he couldn't show her again, so they had to skip everything that happened between the two seasons.  Some fans insist that there's a missing episode, but most of the time it's because they see a fanmade one.  There's been no official indication that one ever existed and personally I can't imagine a better cliffhanger than 'All Hell Breaks Loose'.  I watched that and just sat there, my chin hitting the floor (I had no idea that Shannen had been fired...) so I know nothing else followed it.  And when I watched the Season Four premiere, first they showed 'All Hell Breaks Loose' immediately followed by both Charmed Again, Part One and Charmed Again, Part Two - there was nothing between.

As to what happened, I like to pretend ShiningAllure's wonderful fanmade videos were real: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSVNcnXa3k4&t=141s followed by the other parts on that site.

[Eva Marie]

Yeah, it FEELS like an ep is missing.

[Esmeralda]

I wouldn't say a full episode - I can't think of a cliffhanger better than that. I would say a few extra scenes to start Season Four.

I'll always wonder if they always planned on this being Shannen's last episode and if not, what would've happened with just the original three.

[Apprentice79]

14 hours ago, Esmeralda said:

I wouldn't say a full episode - I can't think of a cliffhanger better than that. I would say a few extra scenes to start Season Four.

I'll always wonder if they always planned on this being Shannen's last episode and if not, what would've happened with just the original three.

I always felt that Piper getting her explosive power was a prelude to Prue dying.  Prue would have been able explode things with her advanced telekinesis.   I personally feel that Kern probably decided towards the middle of season 3 that Shannen would be gone. Plus, she had only signed for 3 seasons.  It made it easier for them, to get rid of her, without, having to pay her.  If she had signed, an additional 2 years, like Alyssa and Holly, they probably would have continued the show with the original sisters.

Edited March 17, 2018 by Apprentice79

[Eva Marie]

I just wanna state on record that I don't believe in either the supposed feud or Shannen being an evil crazy bitch as reasons for her dismissal. I reckon that Shannen simply wanted to make the show better, and she frequently engaged with writers and I'm guessing wanted to direct more. The writers weren't happy as women aren't allowed to make waves in Hollywood without being punished severely (Rose struggled with the same thing on that set).

Kern leveraged this to stage a coup to get rid of 2 pesky key female figures: Connie (who disagreed on the direction of the series) and Shannen (who would've likely supported her) while using the normal colleague bickering between Shannen and Alyssa as an excuse. Shannen's minor legal trouble added fuel to the fire. Once he became top dog, to add insult to injury, he cast an unsuitable actress to replace Shannen (prob. thinking he's landed someone docile). The grand irony of this whole story is that Rose turned out to be a dedicated feminist of the good old-fashioned bra-burning variety and takes even less sexist shit than Shannen ever did. Be careful what you wish for...

Edited March 17, 2018 by Eva Marie

[Apprentice79]

22 hours ago, Eva Marie said:

I just wanna state on record that I don't believe in either the supposed feud or Shannen being an evil crazy bitch as reasons for her dismissal. I reckon that Shannen simply wanted to make the show better, and she frequently engaged with writers and I'm guessing wanted to direct more. The writers weren't happy as women aren't allowed to make waves in Hollywood without being punished severely (Rose struggled with the same thing on that set).

Kern leveraged this to stage a coup to get rid of 2 pesky key female figures: Connie (who disagreed on the direction of the series) and Shannen (who would've likely supported her) while using the normal colleague bickering between Shannen and Alyssa as an excuse. Shannen's minor legal trouble added fuel to the fire. Once he became top dog, to add insult to injury, he cast an unsuitable actress to replace Shannen (prob. thinking he's landed someone docile). The grand irony of this whole story is that Rose turned out to be a dedicated feminist of the good old-fashioned bra-burning variety and takes even less sexist shit than Shannen ever did. Be careful what you wish for...

Perfect post, I agree wholeheartedly with you..

[Guest]

On 16/03/2018 at 3:33 AM, Esmeralda said:

Good luck making sense out of either 'All Hell Breaks Loose' or what happened between.  Because Kern did't know that Shannen had control of her image he had no idea that once she was fired, he couldn't show her again, so they had to skip everything that happened between the two seasons.  Some fans insist that there's a missing episode, but most of the time it's because they see a fanmade one.  There's been no official indication that one ever existed and personally I can't imagine a better cliffhanger than 'All Hell Breaks Loose'.  I watched that and just sat there, my chin hitting the floor (I had no idea that Shannen had been fired...) so I know nothing else followed it.  And when I watched the Season Four premiere, first they showed 'All Hell Breaks Loose' immediately followed by both Charmed Again, Part One and Charmed Again, Part Two - there was nothing between.

As to what happened, I like to pretend ShiningAllure's wonderful fanmade videos were real: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSVNcnXa3k4&t=141s followed by the other parts on that site.

Of course Brad Kern knew. He was the show runner. Lmao. 

Even if they had the rights to her image, she was fired and was not going to return to film any scenes to resolve the cliffhanger ending. They couldn't have resolved that with stock footage from the first three seasons since they didn't film any extra footage before she was fired. 

 

Funnily enough, the only major thread that wasn't tidied up properly didn't actually require Shannen to fix it. That was Cole and Phoebe being detained/killed by the Source. 

It was perfectly acceptable for us to believe that by the time Leo made it back up to the Manor, Prue had already died and he just about managed to heal Piper who wasn't as badly hurt as she was. But their lack of explanation of how and why the Source would just let Phoebe and Cole go or how they easily evaded him was absurd. 

On 12/03/2018 at 1:32 PM, Eva Marie said:

No, I don't see him as a wannabe human worth saving because I've seen S7 where we get not 1, but 2 truly sympathetic demons who risk everything to experience humanity even for a short while. In that sense Cole's story was perfectly concluded and Phoebe learnt her lesson. It was so cathartic to hear her say that she felt nothing when she thought she killed him, and that means that she is finally free. It's such a mature choice because abuse stories are sold to young women as romantic all the time these days and that it's admirable to devote their lives to 'fixing the bad boy' - which Phoebe refuses to do anymore. She does not waver once she makes the decision.

I suppose for Phoebe's character in the later seasons it was a rare bit of consistency too. Even in the moments where she's a little softer on him and not as harsh, she sticks her ground that she's tried with him several times and got burned several times for it so, as you say, she says enough is enough. And she doesn't move from that right through to his exit from the show. 

For her character to be THAT consistent in a storyline from 5-8 is a major feat for this show. 

[Guest]

On 15/03/2018 at 11:07 AM, Eva Marie said:

OK, all this jumping around has made really confused about what happened between S3 and 4. (I live in a country where Charmed isn't on Netflix, so I have to source the DVDs from different places which is why I'm watching all out of order)

So did Phoebe trade her soul AGAIN in All Hell Breaks Loose? Would somebody help me make sense of this ep, please?

 

Basically, the Source agreed to get Tempus to reverse time and save Piper's life if Phoebe agreed to remain in the Underworld. She did so.

Now as the time reversal would not affect the Underworld, it meant Phoebe wouldn't be affected. But the Source/Tempus was clever in that the time reversal saved Piper's life but he reversed it to the point that Prue and Piper's lives were in jeopardy the first time. Thus giving him two major shots at breaking the Charmed circle and also getting one for himself. 

The jarring thing is that's not forgotten, but flippantly disregarded as "we escaped" in the season 4 finale. I can only imagine the producers thought they had enough time on their hands trying to write out Shannen and also give the show some time to mourn Prue without needing to go down the route of Phoebe and Cole spending the episode in the Underworld. 

On 17/03/2018 at 2:32 PM, Apprentice79 said:

I always felt that Piper getting her explosive power was a prelude to Prue dying.  Prue would have been able explode things with her advanced telekinesis.   I personally feel that Kern probably decided towards the middle of season 3 that Shannen would be gone. Plus, she had only signed for 3 seasons.  It made it easier for them, to get rid of her, without, having to pay her.  If she had signed, an additional 2 years, like Alyssa and Holly, they probably would have continued the show with the original sisters.

 

The sisters were on a 4 year contract. Shannen states she was fully expecting to return to set for the fourth season. Hence her agent receiving her "pink slip" to notify her that her contract had been terminated. If her contract simply expired there'd have been no need to sack her, just not renew her contract.

Then Rose signed a 5 year contract (4-8) and Alyssa/Holly signed a second 4 year contract (with producer credits) after season 4 for seasons 5-8. 

Edited March 18, 2018 by Lost

[Writing Wrongs]

I was re-watching The Day The Magic Died. If up until that time, Wyatt was able to heal Piper then how did she even develop a high blood pressure condition? Plot reasons I know, but still.

It also strikes me funny when they are talking about the Northern Lights and stuff and Piper says she forgot it was a sabbat. They may be witches, but they never really struck me as the type who actually followed Wiccan teachings.

[Eva Marie]

The death of Phoebs happened gradually, I see. We still saw her frequently in S3 - like when she grabs the coffee-maker carton out of the dumpster in delight. By the opening of S4 PhoeME was fully formed...

Edited March 27, 2018 by Eva Marie

[Esmeralda]

On 3/27/2018 at 5:31 AM, Eva Marie said:

The death of Phoebs happened gradually, I see. We still saw her frequently in S3 - like when she grabs the coffee-maker carton out of the dumpster in delight. By the opening of S4 PhoeME was fully formed...

For me she died when she lied to her sisters about vanquishing Cole.  The Power of Three should've died at that moment and never come back.  You're right that we get glimpses of the old Phoebs in latter S3, but not many.  We do get one more glimpse of her in a wonderful S7 episode.  Since you're watching these out of order, I won't say which episode it is - I'm waiting to see if you spot it and if you agree with me.  Unfortunately, for me, it's just one single episode and then PhoeME is back in full force.  I hated seeing her go again.