S23.E20: High Rollers #2, Nominations #7

[Yogi Mantle]

On 8/27/2021 at 10:25 PM, Nashville said:

*cough*Season15*cough*

I didn't way there weren't HG's in previous seasons that made racist remarks. Of course there were.

But tell me which alliance in Season 15 was formed BASED on skin color, designed to vote out other HG's BASED on skin color?

Or in ANY season, for that matter?

Go ahead, I'll wait.

And maybe you should do something for the cough.

(Since I know you can't find any, I'll just also point out that on Day 1, Howard made the first alliance of the season - The Moving Company)

Edited August 29, 2021 by Yogi Mantle

[Nashville]

19 hours ago, Yogi Mantle said:

I didn't way there weren't HG's in previous seasons that made racist remarks. Of course there were.

But tell me which alliance in Season 15 was formed BASED on skin color, designed to vote out other HG's BASED on skin color?

Or in ANY season, for that matter?

Go ahead, I'll wait.

And maybe you should do something for the cough.

(Since I know you can't find any, I'll just also point out that on Day 1, Howard made the first alliance of the season - The Moving Company)

For starters, Howard wasn’t the lead on the Moving Company; Nick was - although he didn’t get much chance to do anything with it before getting booted Week 2.  Nick initially recruited Howard, Jeremy and Spencer, then pulled in McCrae after McCrae won the first HoH.
But surprise, surprise - that wasn’t the only alliance that season.  You’ve forgotten about the BlondeTourage - the alliance headed up by Aryan and GM, the two leading race-baiting rabble rousers in the House (Don’t believe me?  Just get on YouTube and search “BB15 racist” - go ahead, I’ll wait).  

…um, no I won’t.  The BlondeTourage was an all-white alliance which targeted and evicted every POC in the House:

1. Aryan was HoH when Howard was evicted Week 5.
2. GM was HoH when Candace was evicted Week 6.
3. Aryan was HoH when Helen was evicted Week 8.

Now, regarding your first point: did the BlondeTourage members specifically SAY for the camera’s benefit, “Let’s make an all-white alliance”?  No - but then again they didn’t really need to, did they?  Of the 16 original HGs there were only 3 POC; simply don’t invite any of those 3 into your alliance, and by default it’s automatically white as Ivory Snow - just like Aryan’s and Amanda’s assholes (post-bleaching, of course).

Likewise - did the BlondeTourage members specifically SAY for the camera’s benefit, “Let’s evict all the non-white people in the House”?  No - but I’m pretty damn certain the FACT of three BlondeTourage HoHs in a row being responsible for the eviction of every POC in the House was not just some freakish coincidence.

So what’s really the sticking point here?  The fact that the CO alliance has a racial bias - or that they’ve actually said so OUT LOUD?

Oh, one last thing: don’t worry about my cough one little bit, dear; recalling S15 always makes me throw up in my mouth a little.

But your concern is touching, really.  

And I mean that, in all sincerity.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Nashville
Typo

[Yogi Mantle]

10 hours ago, Nashville said:

Now, regarding your first point: did the BlondeTourage members specifically SAY for the camera’s benefit, “Let’s make an all-white alliance”?  No

I rest my case.

Because the Cookout actually DID state why they formed and what their purpose was.

For the life of me I still don't know if you're denying or affirming that the Cookout alliance is racist, which was my point to begin with.

Because "racist for a good reason"...is never a good reason.

It's still racist.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Yogi Mantle

[LeDucDiableBleu]

12 hours ago, Nashville said:

I’m pretty damn certain the FACT of three BlondeTourage HoHs in a row being responsible for the eviction of every POC in the House was not just some freakish coincidence.

 

The Cookout is being praised for doing exactly the same thing.

 

[Nashville]

10 hours ago, Yogi Mantle said:

I rest my case.

In that case, I’m happy for you; all that heavy lifting must be extremely tiresome.  😁

 

Quote

Because the Cookout actually DID state why they formed and what their purpose was.

For the life of me I still don't know if you're denying or affirming that the Cookout alliance is racist, which was my point to begin with.

Because "racist for a good reason"...is never a good reason.

It's still racist.

See, here’s apparently our disconnect; you see the terms “racially prejudiced” and “racist” as interchangeable, and I do not:

• Racial prejudice is a bias for or against a particular person or people based on their race - on their “different-ness”, for lack of a better term.  Simple bigotry is a form of racial prejudice.
• Racism is a subset of racial prejudice, and goes deeper than that; it is a belief system which states people of a particular race are not only different, but are superior or inferior to another race/races.  This takes you beyond simple bigotry and more into murkier depths, like white supremacy and antisemitism.  

So, do I think the CO is operating in a racially prejudicial manner?  Definitely; the members themselves have made repeated statements throughout the season that their “cause” is to ensure the first black winner in the history of BB, and I see no reason to think they’re lying.  I have yet to hear any CO member speak disparagingly of any of their targets on a racial basis, though, so I don’t see them as racist - as opposed to the BlondeTourage, for whom racial disparagement came as easily (and almost as frequently) as breathing.

 

6 hours ago, LeDucDiableBleu said:

The Cookout is being praised for doing exactly the same thing.

Um… I haven’t seen the CO flipping anybody’s beds over, or engaging in all-night racist bash sessions - so no, it’s not “exactly the same thing”.  

Some food for thought, though: the declared racial bias of the CO is in pursuit of a goal which - if the BB racial field were truly level in the first place - would have already been achieved about three times over, prior to this season.  So - is racial bias a negative if it is being employed to fight a preexisting racially biased system?

Edited August 31, 2021 by Nashville
Typo

[tinkerbell]

15 minutes ago, Nashville said:

In that case, I’m happy for you; all that heavy lifting must be extremely tiresome.  😁

 

See, here’s apparently our disconnect; you see the terms “racially prejudiced” and “racist” as interchangeable, and I do not:

• Racial prejudice is a bias for or against a particular person or people based on their race - on their “different-ness”, for lack of a better term.  Simple bigotry is a form of racial prejudice.
• Racism is a subset of racial prejudice, and goes deeper than that; it is a belief system which states people of a particular race are not only different, but are superior or inferior to another race/races.  This takes you beyond simple bigotry and more into murkier depths, like white supremacy and antisemitism.  

So, do I think the CO is operating in a racially prejudicial manner?  Definitely; the members themselves have made repeated statements throughout the season that their “cause” is to ensure the first black winner in the history of BB, and I see no reason to think they’re lying.  I have yet to hear any CO member speak disparagingly of any of their targets on a racial basis, though, so I don’t see them as racist - as opposed to the BlondeTourage, for whom racial disparagement came as easily (and almost as frequently) as breathing.

 

Um… I haven’t seen the CO flipping anybody’s beds over, or engaging in all-night racist bash sessions - so no, it’s not “exactly the same thing”.  

Some food for thought, though: the declared racial bias of the CO is in pursuit of a goal which - if the BB racial field were truly level in the first place - would have already been achieved about three times over, prior to this season.  So - is racial bias a negative if it is being employed to fight a preexisting racially biased system?

Thank you for the brilliant explanation, @Nashville. Racism isn't just dividing people by color. Its believing one race is superior to another. That doesn't apply to the Cookout.

Edited August 31, 2021 by tinkerbell

[LeDucDiableBleu]

2 hours ago, Nashville said:

Um… I haven’t seen the CO flipping anybody’s beds over, or engaging in all-night racist bash sessions - so no, it’s not “exactly the same thing”.  

I was referring to what I quoted, which was a group of one skin color picking off all the members of another skin color. When it was the Blondtourage it was bad, but when it's the Cookout, it's good.

[LeDucDiableBleu]

2 hours ago, Nashville said:

Some food for thought, though: the declared racial bias of the CO is in pursuit of a goal which - if the BB racial field were truly level in the first place - would have already been achieved about three times over, prior to this season.  So - is racial bias a negative if it is being employed to fight a preexisting racially biased system?

 

That would be a good question to ask Claire, Britini, Derek X, Travis, Christian, SB and Alyssa. They are paying for the way past HGs treated black HGs, when we don't know if they are racist themselves. I guess to the Cookout, someone like Claire is exactly like Jackson, because they're both white and they're in the system.

[Nashville]

 

2 hours ago, LeDucDiableBleu said:

 

That would be a good question to ask Claire, Britini, Derek X, Travis, Christian, SB and Alyssa.

Yup - and it would also be a good question to ask Amanda and Amber and Autumn and Bayleigh and Beau and Bryan and Candace and Cassandra and Chima and Chris and Da’Vonne and Danielle L and Danielle R and David and Devin and Dominique and Howard and Jameka and Jocasta and Jodi and Jozea and Justin and Kalia and Keith and Kevin and Lawon and Libra and Marcellas and Marvin and Monet and Monica and Natalie and Neeley and Parker and Ramses and William and Zakiyah -  but I don’t expect to hear THEIR phones ringing anytime soon.

Quote

They are paying for the way past HGs treated black HGs, when we don't know if they are racist themselves. I guess to the Cookout, someone like Claire is exactly like Jackson, because they're both white and they're in the system.

Yup.  Unfairness on the basis of race really sucks, don’t it?

 

[BK1978]

6 hours ago, Nashville said:

Some food for thought, though: the declared racial bias of the CO is in pursuit of a goal which - if the BB racial field were truly level in the first place - would have already been achieved about three times over, prior to this season.  So - is racial bias a negative if it is being employed to fight a preexisting racially biased system?

I hope you are not lumping Danielle R. in that group because her loss had to do with her own cockiness/possible lack of awareness and not the color of her skin.  Had she just thought things through and realized that people were going to see her diaries and they were not going to be happy with what she said about them.  I think there would have been a very good chance she would have been the first black winner of the show.

Granted I don't know for a fact but I think had she just been a little nicer in the diary room, people would have respected her game enough to give her the win.  I think Lisa's win was pretty much an anti-Danielle message and clearly the producers felt the same way due to the formation of the sequestered jury.

Edited August 31, 2021 by BK1978
Because I made a typo.

[LeDucDiableBleu]

5 hours ago, Nashville said:

Yup.  Unfairness on the basis of race really sucks, don’t it?

Yes, it's heinous.

[Nashville]

11 hours ago, BK1978 said:

I hope you are not lumping Danielle R. in that group because her loss had to do with her own cockiness/possible lack of awareness and not the color of her skin. 

That’s a reasonable rationale to be sure - but one which can also be applied to Frenchie, or Brent, or Whitney, or Christian, etc., all of whom had factors other than solely race which figured into their eviction.  The CO members weren’t the only ones who voted to evict them, after all.  
Does the existence of these other factors belie the existence of a prejudicial racial factor in their evictions?  The answer is no, of course - but by the same token, Reyes’ own lack of awareness does not automatically eliminate prejudice as a contributing factor to her loss.

 

[BK1978]

7 hours ago, Nashville said:

Reyes’ own lack of awareness does not automatically eliminate prejudice as a contributing factor to her loss.

But does it prove it?  Remember they are being filmed 24/7, was there evidence that any of the jury that season voted against Danielle due to racial prejudices?  Or did they vote against her because she was nice to their faces and a total asshole to them in her DR sessions?

If they did vote against her due to racial prejudices, would we not have heard about that by now?  I am not willing to agree that prejudice was a contributing factor to her loss when, to my knowledge, there is no evidence to back it up in the nineteen years since it happened.  If there is evidence I would happily retract my statement.  None of us can read anyone else's mind and so without evidence to the contrary, I am not willing to condemn someone as being racist just because I "feel" they might be. Also, I do not consider everyone of one skin color being inherently biased against anyone who is not like them as evidence because I do not agree with that line of thinking. 

When looking at the history of the show I am more than comfortable saying GinaMarie, Aaryn, Jack (Not F.B.I. Jack, talking about Aquaman lookalike), and Jackson (They are the ones who come to my mind right away) do at the very least hold racist views and are probably all racist.  This is due to their actions on the show. 

I would say that the members of the CO are racist as well. Once again I am basing this on their actions on the show.  When you have Derek F. saying he will not vote for a white person to win, that is racist no matter how much people might try to spin it and say it is not.  Mainly because discrimination based on skin color is racist regardless of ones reasons for said discrimination or the color of ones skin (Meaning yes people who are not white can be racists against white people.  No matter how much activist want to change the definition of the word so they can have a free pass to be racist.). 

I really hope that future seasons don't turn into Big Brother: Race War but I have a feeling that is exactly what might happen.  I foresee next season people trying to stamp out any chance of an all-black alliance forming just like they do with any all-female alliance.

As I said previously, I have given up watching this season.  I only check the Live Feed highlights to see who was voted out and who is HOH (Because I can't totally quit.).  I  simply don't want to see yet another season where one dominate alliance bulldozes everyone.

We already had one known racist win the show in Jackson and by the looks of it, it would appear we will have two when whatever member of the CO wins.

[tinkerbell]

12 hours ago, BK1978 said:

We already had one known racist win the show in Jackson and by the looks of it, it would appear we will have two when whatever member of the CO wins

I disagree with calling the members of the CO racists, for the many reasons spelled out in this and other threads on the topic.  

Its like calling all Black organizations racist, or womens colleges sexist. 

[JudyObscure]

5 hours ago, tinkerbell said:

Its like calling all Black organizations racist, or womens colleges sexist. 

Well they are a little bit. 

Still, a big organization known to only work for the interest of one race or a large school known to only  accept women, are nothing like a small group of people who were told they all had an equal chance at $750,000, but didn't really, because of  ... race.

[UniqBlue69]

The discourse going on here is reminding me of those buffoons who organized a straight pride parade, because in their feeble minds, gay pride is somehow discriminatory.. HA! Or, in another instance, I've actually heard several arguments on how BET should not exist because there is no such thing as WET. I'm not black but I have no problem with the cookout because I get how it is to want to advance and empower your particular disenfranchised group. I'm totally ambivalent about the cookout, and therefore do not feel equipped to articulate my points properly, but I appreciate the discussion. Thank you all!

[JudyObscure]

9 minutes ago, UniqBlue69 said:

I'm not black but I have no problem with the cookout because I get how it is to want to advance and empower your particular disenfranchised group.

See, that's why the NAACP is not racist to me  but the cook-out is.  The NAACP  was  organized, as you say,  to advance and empower a  particular disenfranchised group.  The cook-out?  Not so much.  

The basic problem for all of this is I think we label ourselves and others too much. I would much rather see an alliance based on mutual liking and trust than skin color, or gender, or religion,  who you want to have sex with.  Just people.  If I was there I would have wanted to align with Azah, Hannah and Derex, because I liked them best and it would hurt if they said, nope your skin is too pale.

[BK1978]

11 hours ago, tinkerbell said:

I disagree with calling the members of the CO racists, for the many reasons spelled out in this and other threads on the topic.  

Its like calling all Black organizations racist, or womens colleges sexist. 

Which you are entitled to do so, I would never tell anyone who disagrees with me that they are not allowed to have a different opinion.  It happened to me on here before and I am not cool when people say stuff like that.  To me it is a agree to disagree sort of deal, nothing that has been posted on this topic has even remotely swayed my opinion on the subject and I am pretty sure the same can be said about people who disagree with what I am saying.

As to the second thing you said, the way I look at it is this.  There was/still is a need for the NAACP.  I am not blind, I do fully understand that racism still is around it will sadly always be around.  I personally never understood why people automatically hate people who do not look like them or are different than them.  I will say in America at the very least I just do not think racism is as near pervasive as some would like us to think it is. 

Obviously women's colleges are not sexist as there was absolutely a need for them.  Though I do question if there is still a need for them in the modern day (I would say that about all men's schools as well.  I am sure there are still some all boys prep schools out there.).

In regards to the CO, there was no need for the alliance to be formed.  If I was a betting man I would think Xavier (I picked him as the winner week one.) and Kyland would have made it deep into the game with or without that alliance.  The two of them are just likable.  Derek F. I am less sure of, because I will be honest I cannot see beyond my dislike of him to give a non-biased opinion of him.  Tiffany probably would still have made it deep as well because she is someone who can connect with pretty much anyone.  Hannah and Azah I am less sure about.   Azah seems for lack of a better term, a little too mousey to me.  Maybe she changed since I watched the show but she just seemed like she lacked the killer instinct and had she not been part of the alliance, I could easily see her being cannon fodder at the start of the game.  Hannah just does not seem to have a good poker face and I think that is something that could have bitten her in the ass had she not had built-in protection.  Granted those are just my reads from what I saw, I could be off or misreading stuff.

Also, due to the events of last year I think it is safe to say that a lot of the non-black houseguests would have been guy shy in even nominating a black housguest.  So had the CO alliance not formed, a lot of the members of the alliance might have coasted through the game for that reason alone.

But I will say I do think the members of the alliance are racist because they actively discriminated against people due to the color of someone's skin.  That's about as racist as one can get.  People can try to spin it as much as they want talking about historical wrongs and what have you but at the end of the day if you do discriminate against someone due to skin you are racist.  I felt that way when it happened to Candice and Howard (Yes I fully understand the situations were different but both situations are wrong either way) and I feel that way now. 

I fully understand people disagree with my line of thinking and that is okay.  As I said, I will never be one to tell anyone they are not allowed to think a certain way.  

Well anyway I am not even watching this season anymore so I shall once again go radio silent.  I am off to watch Australian Survivor, which I do highly recommend to anyone who is a fan of American Survivor.  There is this guy named George who everyone keeps on trying to vote off and somehow he manages to dodge the bullet time and time again.

I hope those who continue to watch enjoy this season and may your favorite person win.  Regardless of everything I said above I still would like to see Xavier win.  Mainly because the person I have picked to win never has won and I want to be right just once.