Do You Consider Yourself A Feminist?: Why Or Why Not?

[JTMacc99]

I get all riled up about mental health stuff, so I failed to realize I was responding in this topic, so let me share a little bit of just what's gone on with my daughter.

The teen girls (in the places where they were more isolated) dialed up their social media interactions, which were already frightening, to 11 on the 1-10 dials.

One of the things they shared was discussions of mental health. So one girl, either somebody they know or just a TikTok person, might share that she had OCD issues, but now they're much worse and talk about all of it. Another might have been having depression and shared that she has been diagnosed as bi-polar. 

It became relatively common for the girls to ALL start diagnosing themselves with mental health conditions. It became a way for them to fit in. "I'm more depressed than you." "I have to have all the light switches in the house the same way or I can't go to bed." 

As if they didn't have enough to worry about just being teenagers and all that comes with that, they were going out of their way to make sure they had legitimate mental health issues. I know kids who literally stopped being depressed simply because they got a psychiatrist to give them a diagnosis they liked and could tell everybody about. 

I mean, they were still really messed up, but they stopped being miserable and started actually working on getting better. They craved the diagnosis because of the social pressure to fit in with everybody else who had one. 

[PRgal]

16 minutes ago, Elizabeth Anne said:

My 10 yr old grandson was already a loner before the pandemic and hated school so lockdowns were a joy to him.  But we can see now that no matter how happy he may have been to be home so much it did him no favours as he is now back in school, still hating it, and having an even harder time making friends and not standing out as "the weird kid".  He too is in counselling now and it's helping.

My 7 yr old granddaughter on the other hand - well this is the first full complete (knock wood) year of school she will experience.  For her socially she's been fine but her teacher says she's at an early grade 1 level in her academic work instead of where she should be so my daughter gets to pay for counselling for her son and now extra tutoring for her daughter.  Covid, the gift that keeps on taking.

And bringing this back to why I am a feminist and speaking of Covid the pandemic disporportionately affected women, The Facts: Women and Pandemics

 

It sucks that your granddaughter is a year behind at school.  Did her parents not work with her over the summer/throughout the year?  It doesn’t have to be actual tutoring - reading books together, playing number games, etc…maybe it’s just my circle and the school my son goes to, but the kids there are learning to sort things into groups of 2s, 5s and 10s when it comes to “math” and he often comes home with books to read together.  The only thing he needs to work on is to remember what a story we read is about. No one expects him to give a full book report, but it’s important to remember what something is about.  He can’t just recognize words.  My son is in Junior Kindergarten.  

[RealHousewife]

Feminists speak out a lot about toxic masculinity and how much it harms everyone. Do any of you think you have anything that's considered toxic masculinity?

I have a very feminine exterior. I wear makeup, prefer dresses to pants, love high heels, like to get my nails done, you get the picture. But despite my appearance and mostly other traditionally feminine qualities, I think I relate a bit to what's considered toxic masculinity. I vent on here a lot, but IRL, I am actually rather stoic. I'm a sensitive person, but I do not like to cry in front of anyone. I know some women have zero shame crying ever, and I can't relate to that at all. I get uncomfortable if I tear up watching a movie. I also keep a lot of my trauma to myself. My childhood was a mess, and I've spent so much of my life anxious and/or depressed. Some people think it's just not being social, having no interest in things, being an introvert, and while that can occasionally be true, a lot of what's caused me to miss out is my mental health. I also struggle expressing my feelings in general. I have a difficult time showing affection with just anyone. We have to be fairly close, can't have a tense relationship, and you can't be someone I perceive as threatening. Being softy, mushy, vulnerable, all of it makes me uncomfortable. I know it's all part of being human, but I do struggle with it. 

[peacheslatour]

I never cry.

[isalicat]

Funny - I have a lot of what are often called "masculine" qualities: I'm rather aggressive, I like to dress up but only in a very comfortable classic way (so no underwire push up bras or anything else that makes you suffer to look good), I don't flirt and I speak my mind very directly. But I cry at some commercials and any feel good animal stories on the news...I can be very mushy and sentimental when it comes down to it. I love to give and receive hugs too.

I don't think the phrase "toxic masculinity" is a useful way of looking at any attitude or behavior, frankly. Everyone is a big mix of innate personality characteristics and the stuff they have absorbed as children from the adults they observed. Lets be kind to one another and not label anything as "toxic". Some behaviors can be harmful and need to be called out but that is true of both men and women, for sure, so coming down on men being men (which is usually a good thing!) is not helpful, in my opinion.

[peacheslatour]

Toxic Masculinity doesn't mean that masculinity is toxic. It means that men are hurt just as much by societal expectations as women are. Men are told to always be strong, never cry or show weakness, love violent activities and stuff like hunting and sports. There are too many men who are taught that anger is the only acceptable emotion for men to have. This sort of thinking is bad for everybody.

[isalicat]

6 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

Toxic Masculinity doesn't mean that masculinity is toxic. It means that men are hurt just as much by societal expectations as women are. Men are told to always be strong, never cry or show weakness, love violent activities and stuff like hunting and sports. There are too many men who are taught that anger is the only acceptable emotion for men to have. This sort of thinking is bad for everybody.

I entirely agree with you about societal expectations (and they are generally *cultural expectations*, as within U.S. society, for example, we have a wide variety of what men are expected to be like, just like women). But the sort of thinking that labels something "toxic" I do not think is useful for the conversion of the people involved towards a better behavior set or a richer and more expansive emotional life. It just "gets their back up" as the saying goes. And again, stoicism and a love of hunting and sports are not bad things in and of themselves (we could use with a lot more stoicism and a lot less oversharing of our poor widdle hurt feelings by both genders these days in my opinion), so getting the pendulum to swing too far towards feminizing men is not necessarily a good outcome either.

[Makai]

15 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

Toxic Masculinity doesn't mean that masculinity is toxic. It means that men are hurt just as much by societal expectations as women are. Men are told to always be strong, never cry or show weakness, love violent activities and stuff like hunting and sports. There are too many men who are taught that anger is the only acceptable emotion for men to have. This sort of thinking is bad for everybody.

Exactly this. So many of the beliefs about gender are the foundation of homophobia, transphobia and misogyny which are engrained in children from such a young age. It’s not the activity and personality trait that is the problem but the ascribing of those traits to specific genders. 

On 2/15/2023 at 7:24 PM, RealHousewife said:

Feminists speak out a lot about toxic masculinity and how much it harms everyone. Do any of you think you have anything that's considered toxic masculinity?

I have a very feminine exterior. I wear makeup, prefer dresses to pants, love high heels, like to get my nails done, you get the picture. But despite my appearance and mostly other traditionally feminine qualities, I think I relate a bit to what's considered toxic masculinity. I vent on here a lot, but IRL, I am actually rather stoic. I'm a sensitive person, but I do not like to cry in front of anyone. I know some women have zero shame crying ever, and I can't relate to that at all. I get uncomfortable if I tear up watching a movie. I also keep a lot of my trauma to myself. My childhood was a mess, and I've spent so much of my life anxious and/or depressed. Some people think it's just not being social, having no interest in things, being an introvert, and while that can occasionally be true, a lot of what's caused me to miss out is my mental health. I also struggle expressing my feelings in general. I have a difficult time showing affection with just anyone. We have to be fairly close, can't have a tense relationship, and you can't be someone I perceive as threatening. Being softy, mushy, vulnerable, all of it makes me uncomfortable. I know it's all part of being human, but I do struggle with it. 

Interesting question. I definitely do. Growing up my dad did not know how to handle his own emotions and was completely out of his depth when dealing with mine. I also struggle with showing affection and have a very hard to time shaking the belief that my sensitivity is a flaw to be hidden. 

[PRgal]

For those who struggle with showing emotion:  Sometimes, it's culturally related.  Asians (or at least East Asians) don't verbally show love to their children.  While "I love you" (Aw oy nay in Cantonese) exists, it's used between couples, not from a parent to their child.  There are several videos on YouTube where (adult) children call their parents up to tell them, verbally, "I love you" (in their ancestral languages) and there are cases where parents were like "are you broke?" I don't speak much Cantonese to my son (but I do try.  My parents are referred to as "Gung Gung" and "Poh Poh" rather than "Grandpa" and "Grandma," for example, and we say "fun gow" (sleep)), but I can't say "aw oy nay" to him.  It HAS to be in English.  I also show a lot more physical affection to him than the "typical" immigrant Chinese family might, especially in my generation. 

[Bethany]

There is an episode of Everybody Loves Raymond where Ray asks his parents why they never said "I love you" to him or Robert and they respond that this was something they never heard from their own parents and seem surprised he would expect it.  I think this was very reflective of the generation Marie and Frank represented which was pretty much the same as my own parents.  We knew they loved us but not because they ever said it!  And hugs and kisses were rare.  My husband and I were very different with our own kids and what funny is my dad, now, at 87 closes a phone conversation with "love you".  Like Ray in that episode the first few times he did this I was really taken aback!

[PRgal]

7 minutes ago, Elizabeth Anne said:

There is an episode of Everybody Loves Raymond where Ray asks his parents why they never said "I love you" to him or Robert and they respond that this was something they never heard from their own parents and seem surprised he would expect it.  I think this was very reflective of the generation Marie and Frank represented which was pretty much the same as my own parents.  We knew they loved us but not because they ever said it!  And hugs and kisses were rare.  My husband and I were very different with our own kids and what funny is my dad, now, at 87 closes a phone conversation with "love you".  Like Ray in that episode the first few times he did this I was really taken aback!

But that was your generation.  The adult children of Asian immigrant parents are millennials. It’s just not done, and I had trouble at first too, to be honest.  And it’s probably why I can only do it it English.  Because it seems more natural.  Providing food and shelter is the way love is shown in East Asian cultures.  

[peacheslatour]

10 minutes ago, Elizabeth Anne said:

There is an episode of Everybody Loves Raymond where Ray asks his parents why they never said "I love you" to him or Robert and they respond that this was something they never heard from their own parents and seem surprised he would expect it.  I think this was very reflective of the generation Marie and Frank represented which was pretty much the same as my own parents.  We knew they loved us but not because they ever said it!  And hugs and kisses were rare.  My husband and I were very different with our own kids and what funny is my dad, now, at 87 closes a phone conversation with "love you".  Like Ray in that episode the first few times he did this I was really taken aback!

When my dad was still lucid enough for phone calls, at the end of the call he always said "I'm hugging you" and I would always reply "I'm hugging you back." And we said "I love you." My parents were very free with I love yous , hugs, kisses but otherwise, they were very reserved. You would never hear a raised voice in our house.

[Bethany]

38 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

You would never hear a raised voice in our house.

Same with us,  my parents were very reserved in the showing of affection but they also rarely scolded, let alone punished us.  Pretty hippie go free free as someone somewhere once said.

[peacheslatour]

34 minutes ago, Elizabeth Anne said:

Same with us,  my parents were very reserved in the showing of affection but they also rarely scolded, let alone punished us.  Pretty hippie go free free as someone somewhere once said.

My parents were very career focused. I think I get a lot of my feminism from my mom, who had a very successful kitchen remodeling business. My dad traveled constantly for work. They were almost never home. I basically raised myself.

[Bethany]

24 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

My parents were very career focused. I think I get a lot of my feminism from my mom, who had a very successful kitchen remodeling business. My dad traveled constantly for work. They were almost never home. I basically raised myself.

My Dad was the same.  He was a hands on Dad when he was home.  But that wasn't often.  He was in Australia when I graduated from high school, somewhere in Europe when I graduated from university and I think it was Vancouver the day my first child was born!  I've always said I really got to know my Dad only after he retired!  And yet he was a wonderful parent and I credit him with making sure I knew that I could do anything I wanted and he and my Mom definitely never pushed that getting married and having kids was the be all and end all.

[peacheslatour]

13 minutes ago, Elizabeth Anne said:

My Dad was the same.  He was a hands on Dad when he was home.  But that wasn't often.  He was in Australia when I graduated from high school, somewhere in Europe when I graduated from university and I think it was Vancouver the day my first child was born!  I've always said I really got to know my Dad only after he retired!  And yet he was a wonderful parent and I credit him with making sure I knew that I could do anything I wanted and he and my Mom definitely never pushed that getting married and having kids was the be all and end all.

I love this. My dad treated me like a boy when I was small. Fishing, sailing and horseback riding. He gave me his love of nature and animals. He said I could be anything I wanted to be. He was such a great dad. It kills me to see him now.

[Annber03]

32 minutes ago, Elizabeth Anne said:

And yet he was a wonderful parent and I credit him with making sure I knew that I could do anything I wanted and he and my Mom definitely never pushed that getting married and having kids was the be all and end all.

My parents were/are the same way. They always made it clear to both me and my sister that they just wanted us to be happy and safe/healthy, no matter what we did with our lives. I'll hear people talk about how their parents constantly get on them about when they're going to get married and have kids and whatnot, and it's so weird to me and makes me feel for them. I can only imagine how incredibly irritating and frustrating that would be. 

My dad was a very hands on sort around the house, too. My dad worked nights and my mom worked days when I was a baby, so that helped make it easy for them to balance taking care of me. My mom's told me about how so many of her co-workers were surprised to hear that my dad would help with the housework/groceries/etc. while she was at work. And they were especially surprised that he would spend time taking care of me, and my mom found that reaction so weird. She said she'd always be sitting there thinking, "...well, he is her dad, not a babysitter, so...yeah?" 

Mind, this was back in the 1980s, so that would explain some of those attitudes, but even so...

[PRgal]

23 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

I love this. My dad treated me like a boy when I was small. Fishing, sailing and horseback riding. He gave me his love of nature and animals. He said I could be anything I wanted to be. He was such a great dad. It kills me to see him now.

My dad didn’t.  By the time I was a teen, my dad had to travel a lot for work and would sometimes be in three or more cities in a week - even over three continents.  He regrets not teaching me/talking to me more about investing/finance, so it never really piqued my interest.  When I was younger, it was more science camp or computer camp.  I was never all that great and STEM was a big turn off.

[RealHousewife]

This is an old article, but I thought it was good. It touches on the fine line between admiration and objectification. It's a topic I find interesting for a number of reasons.

On the one hand, a compliment can make my day. On the other hand, sometimes men seem to think we should be flattered when they make sexual comments or get specific about body parts, or can't figure why we get uncomfortable if the comments aren't about us. I worked with only men for years, and while I didn't want to be a "fainting couch" feminist and am no saint myself, I got sick of listening to the guys talk. A conversation would go from something I saw no harm in like the guys' celeb crushes to their tit and ass preferences, favorite porn stars, putting down their wives' bodies, etc. 

I forgot if I mentioned it in the thread already, but not wanting to be objectified played a part in my eating disorder in my youth. Even though now I wish I had a bit more curvature going, I wanted a completely straight up and down body so badly, I taped myself down in my teens and wore stuff very baggy into my 20s. I had some childhood trauma, and the last thing I wanted was to be seen as sexual.  

https://www.menshealth.com/sex-women/a26813937/how-to-talk-back-to-locker-room-talk/

[Bethany]

I've always worked in a female dominated profession (librarianship) so I have been spared being around men who think that kind of conversation is appropriate in the workplace (or any place really)!  But when I met my husband he was studying engineering at university.  I don't know if it was unique to Montreal (or Canada perhaps?) but engineering students then had a well deserved reputation for being DISGUSTING where sex and women were concerned. 

The student lounge for the engineering dept, as one example, was literally wallpapered all over with pictures taken from magazines like Playboy - and many far less classy.  I really hope schools wouldn't let the students get away with this today but back in the 80s if anyone complained it certainly didn't change anything.

Taken individually these guys were nice, normal, sometimes geeky kids who knew how to behave in public.  Put them all together and they turned into creeps of the first magnitude.  

[PRgal]

49 minutes ago, Elizabeth Anne said:

I've always worked in a female dominated profession (librarianship) so I have been spared being around men who think that kind of conversation is appropriate in the workplace (or any place really)!  But when I met my husband he was studying engineering at university.  I don't know if it was unique to Montreal (or Canada perhaps?) but engineering students then had a well deserved reputation for being DISGUSTING where sex and women were concerned. 

The student lounge for the engineering dept, as one example, was literally wallpapered all over with pictures taken from magazines like Playboy - and many far less classy.  I really hope schools wouldn't let the students get away with this today but back in the 80s if anyone complained it certainly didn't change anything.

Taken individually these guys were nice, normal, sometimes geeky kids who knew how to behave in public.  Put them all together and they turned into creeps of the first magnitude.  

Montreal (I assume, McGill?) is probably tamer than, say, Queen's, where it's a known PARTY SCHOOL (especially with engineers - LOL).  Not sure how it is at Waterloo (i.e. NERD SCHOOL) though.  I have a friend (same "older girl" who warned me NOT to read "Are You There, God" (no doubt she read it herself.  Maybe she just didn't want me to read it because she didn't want me to be cooler than her (why would she care, anyway?  I'm SEVEN YEARS YOUNGER) and "Blubber") who went there.  I went to Queen's myself (Arts and Science, specifically a history/drama major).  I should add that I don’t think engineers were nearly as wild re: pics of scantily clad women in the late 90s/early naughts - more girls in engineering meant that it was harder for guys to get away with it.  

Edited April 5, 2023 by PRgal

[peacheslatour]

I worked in a custom paint shop for twelve years. It was mostly men. The tint room walls were covered in girly pics, much like you describe Elizabeth Anne. So one day I tore a picture out of a magazine and pinned it up. It was the old Marky Mark Calvin Klein underwear ad, just showing his torso. The guys all complained to the manager so he decided NO MORE PICS, PERIOD. They had to take all their stuff down, lol. They didn't get mad at me because they knew I was just doing what they were doing.

 

Edited April 5, 2023 by peacheslatour

[RealHousewife]

1 hour ago, Elizabeth Anne said:

I've always worked in a female dominated profession (librarianship) so I have been spared being around men who think that kind of conversation is appropriate in the workplace (or any place really)!  But when I met my husband he was studying engineering at university.  I don't know if it was unique to Montreal (or Canada perhaps?) but engineering students then had a well deserved reputation for being DISGUSTING where sex and women were concerned. 

The student lounge for the engineering dept, as one example, was literally wallpapered all over with pictures taken from magazines like Playboy - and many far less classy.  I really hope schools wouldn't let the students get away with this today but back in the 80s if anyone complained it certainly didn't change anything.

Taken individually these guys were nice, normal, sometimes geeky kids who knew how to behave in public.  Put them all together and they turned into creeps of the first magnitude.  

Yeah, these aren’t men I’d say are normally horrible. I’m even friends with some of them. But men together become so bad. It reminds me of being a kid where I’d get along fine with a boy one on one, but a group of them together could be a different story. 

@peacheslatour that’s brilliant! 

[PRgal]

2 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

I worked in a custom paint shop for twelve years. It was mostly men. The tint room walls were covered in girly pics, much like you describe Elizabeth Anne. So one day I tore a picture out of a magazine and pinned it up. It was the old Marky Mark Calvin Klein underwear ad, just showing his torso. The guys all complained to the manager so he decided NO MORE PICS, PERIOD. They had to take all their stuff down, lol. They didn't get mad at me because they knew I was just doing what they were doing.

 

I interned at an HR department one summer when I was an undergrad and a very good looking man, probably late 20s/early 30s came in for an interview.  You wouldn't believe how some of the women (it was a female-dominated department) described him.  Some of these ladies (if we can call them that) were...let's just say...of a certain age.  As a 20 year old "kid," I mostly kept my mouth shut.  I didn't want to get in trouble.

Edited April 5, 2023 by PRgal

[RealHousewife]

2 hours ago, PRgal said:

I interned at an HR department one summer when I was an undergrad and a very good looking man, probably late 20s/early 30s came in for an interview.  You wouldn't believe how some of the women (it was a female-dominated department) described him.  Some of these ladies (if we can call them that) were...let's just say...of a certain age.  As a 20 year old "kid," I mostly kept my mouth shut.  I didn't want to get in trouble.

Women can be really bad too! I once worked with a woman who’d talk about different male employees’ butts. She didn’t wait for it to be “just the girls” either. She was an older woman and got away with a lot. 

[PRgal]

9 minutes ago, RealHousewife said:

Women can be really bad too! I once worked with a woman who’d talk about different male employees’ butts. She didn’t wait for it to be “just the girls” either. She was an older woman and got away with a lot. 

Was she fairly senior?  They tend to get away with more...that's why I, as the lowly intern felt the need to keep my mouth shut.

Edited April 5, 2023 by PRgal

[RealHousewife]

5 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Was she fairly senior?  They tend to get away with more...that's why I, as the lowly intern felt the need to keep my mouth shut.

Yes, she had worked there forever.

[RealHousewife]

Some of you may enjoy this YouTube channel, Feminist Cat Lady Spinster. She has a lot of interesting content. 

https://www.youtube.com/@FeministCatLadySpinster/videos

[peacheslatour]

Subscribed!

[Bethany]

Even "breadwinner" wives do more housework than husbands

Quote

In other words, women may not only be bringing home the bacon, but also cooking the bacon and scrubbing out the pan afterwards.

 

[Bastet]

29 minutes ago, Elizabeth Anne said:

Even "breadwinner" wives do more housework than husbands

Which has been true ever since this started being studied in depth; all these decades later, and so very little has changed at home.  (Too little has changed at work, school, in government, on the streets, etc.  But things are something very close to stagnant at home.)

[PRgal]

46 minutes ago, Elizabeth Anne said:

Even "breadwinner" wives do more housework than husbands

 

And this is one of the MANY reasons why the glass ceiling is still a thing.  We’re too tired/stressed from working essentially two jobs.  If only guys can make more of an effort.  My husband included.  I have to remind him to take the dishes to the sink.  Even my son knows to take things to the sink!

[ABay]

11 hours ago, Elizabeth Anne said:

Even "breadwinner" wives do more housework than husbands

 

I am shocked. Shocked, I tell you.

[isalicat]

21 hours ago, Bastet said:

Which has been true ever since this started being studied in depth; all these decades later, and so very little has changed at home.  (Too little has changed at work, school, in government, on the streets, etc.  But things are something very close to stagnant at home.)

Not at my house! My husband and I were equal partners in every aspect of life, which meant he did all the dishes, all the laundry, all the house cleaning and took care of our son from birth through soccer practice and etc. (including diaper changes), alternated cooking duties and we shared shopping. I was the "breadwinner" but he spent a couple of hours every day managing our investments and all other finances. I keep seeing these studies and thinking, "ladies, why don't you put your fucking foot down and negotiate the equality you say you want and deserve?". Well?

[Bethany]

Some comments about the misogyny in Big Bang Theory made be realize if I stopped watching every show out there that is guilty of this (and I am not talking about vintage programming here!) then I would be watching a lot less TV.  This is not necessarily a bad thing. 

I guess what I've done over the years is to take from a show what I like about it and tune out the parts that are problematic.  Somehow I think this is not unique to me.  But the more I think about it the more frustrating it is to acknowledge that I am still having to do this for shows being written right now!  

[Bastet]

41 minutes ago, Elizabeth Anne said:

But the more I think about it the more frustrating it is to acknowledge that I am still having to do this for shows being written right now! 

Yeah, it's pretty pathetic that some of the screwball comedies from the '30s are less sexist than some of the romantic comedies being made today.

Something I have nostalgic fondness for from childhood, before I picked up on the sexism (or racism, or other prejudice), I might still enjoy the good parts of - hell, I'll still watch Smokey & the Bandit even though I cringe multiple times - but if I watch something new and it's a case study in sexism (and/or other -isms), I'm not going to stick around for whatever genuine laughs it may bring me.  While not enough, there is comedy out there that isn't marinated in stereotypes and prejudices, and that's what is going to get my time.

[RealHousewife]

 

[PRgal]

I’ve decided that I don’t care anymore.  I don’t want to “cancel” anything because it’s now seen as reeking of whatever-ism.  No society is free of any kind of ism - every single culture has evolved from something that would deserve cancelling in 2023 standards.  I know that my own ancestral culture won’t exist without Confucius and that guy is guilty, guilty, guilty of sexism. 

[Bethany]

Over on one of the Royals threads I posted an article talking about  the "naughty" ex-husband of Camilla. 

The whole article had people describing him as "naughty" "a real charmer" "terribly misbehaving".   Ok, can anyone imagine an article about a married woman who had affairs being described in this way? 

I am by no means defending adulterous relationships here but when, in 2023, men are  still given a pass, and a somewhat affectionate pass at that, over things a woman would be torn to shreds over, well I just give up.

[RealHousewife]

This article is long and several years old, but I thought it was pretty good.

https://observer.com/2015/10/guys-heres-what-its-actually-like-to-be-a-woman/

[chocolatine]

Can't believe I didn't know about this tread until now! I've already posted this in the work thread, but I wonder what people here think about the term "womxn." Our new-ish (six months into the job) head of HR used it on a slide in a presentation about employee demographics. I've heard this term before, a long time ago, but it didn't make any sense to me, and since it didn't catch on, I mostly forgot about it - until now.

After the HR presentation, several women complained about the use of the term, saying that they identify as women and not "womxn." The head of HR apologized, but said it was being used "organically" at the company. I'm very active in the employee resource group for women, and none of us have ever used that term, which I pointed out (all of those conversations are happening in a company-wide channel). A coworker who is a trans man messaged me privately to thank me for speaking up. He says the term is transphobic, but he feels uncomfortable speaking up himself because the head of HR is his boss.

The worst part is, the head of HR was "chief diversity officer" at a Fortune 500 company before he joined our company, so why is he using such outdated, and to many people, offensive, terminology?

[Annber03]

I have not heard that term before, either. I remember years and years ago, some people were using "womyn", for reasons I can't recall offhand, but it clearly didn't seem to take off as a trend.

But yeah, that's a new one to me, too, and it says a lot about this guy that he would use it while also brushing off the complaints from those who'd be most impacted by the term about its use. And he's in charge of human resources, eh? Of course :/. 

[chocolatine]

27 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

But yeah, that's a new one to me, too, and it says a lot about this guy that he would use it while also brushing off the complaints from those who'd be most impacted by the term about its use. And he's in charge of human resources, eh? Of course :/. 

Yes, human resources *and* DE&I. 🤦‍♀️

[EtheltoTillie]

2 hours ago, Annber03 said:

I have not heard that term before, either. I remember years and years ago, some people were using "womyn", for reasons I can't recall offhand, but it clearly didn't seem to take off as a trend.

But yeah, that's a new one to me, too, and it says a lot about this guy that he would use it while also brushing off the complaints from those who'd be most impacted by the term about its use. And he's in charge of human resources, eh? Of course :/. 

I thought womyn came about as a means to avoid using the word men as part of the word.  I thought it was originated by so called radical feminists. Not by corporate HR types. 
I don’t know how womxn came about since I have not seen it used, certainly not by corporate types. Maybe it’s like Latinx. 

[EtheltoTillie]

Used organically at the company?  Must have been a new policx issued by the chief spelling officer. WTF?  

[PRgal]

1 hour ago, EtheltoTillie said:

I thought womyn came about as a means to avoid using the word men as part of the word.  I thought it was originated by so called radical feminists. Not by corporate HR types. 
I don’t know how womxn came about since I have not seen it used, certainly not by corporate types. Maybe it’s like Latinx. 

And most Latinos don’t like that word.  I think Latine is the term being tossed around in Spanish speaking communities?  As for womxn,  ugh.  

[RealHousewife]

Not to get too OT, but I forget why Latin doesn’t work. 

My thoughts regarding women and different terms . . .

Some of the above terms are new to me. I just say women, not womenx or womyn. I definitely bat for transgender women. Sports is probably one area it can get tricky. I don’t have the answers but want everyone to be able to participate. I’m also not used to pregnant or menstruating person, but I understand wanting to be sensitive and inclusive to all. Chest feeding sounds silly to me, since we all have breasts. Men get breast cancer. 

[supposebly]

Interesting discussion. I wonder if there are local differences in the use? And how would womxn be pronounced? I often found womyn a bit odd since it's not pronounced differently from women, so it really only shows when written? Or is it pronounced differently? 

As a woman approaching menopause, I might get annoyed with the term menstruating person, though. Older women are invisible enough as it is.

Ah, breast is only used for women until they're diseased. Then it's breast cancer for men too. I try not to read too much into that.😉

In German, the word breast Brust is used for men and women. However, a woman has breasts Brüste plural while a man only ever has one Brust.

[PRgal]

7 minutes ago, supposebly said:

Interesting discussion. I wonder if there are local differences in the use? And how would womxn be pronounced? I often found womyn a bit odd since it's not pronounced differently from women, so it really only shows when written? Or is it pronounced differently? 

As a woman approaching menopause, I might get annoyed with the term menstruating person, though. Older women are invisible enough as it is.

Ah, breast is only used for women until they're diseased. Then it's breast cancer for men too. I try not to read too much into that.😉

In German, the word breast Brust is used for men and women. However, a woman has breasts Brüste plural while a man only ever has one Brust.

Woo-munks?  Like chipmunks but woo? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 or is it woo-munk-sen?

And would men be mxn?  Munk-sen? Munks (like monks)? 

[EtheltoTillie]

6 hours ago, PRgal said:

Woo-munks?  Like chipmunks but woo? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 or is it woo-munk-sen?

And would men be mxn?  Munk-sen? Munks (like monks)? 

How about Mister Mxyzptlk?  (TM Superman Comics)