Do You Consider Yourself A Feminist?: Why Or Why Not?

[Bethany]

Another commercial that seems like a '60s throwback.  This time it's a radio commercial.  A chirpy woman informs her husband that she's "going hunting" he is shocked and she clarifies "for bargains at Local Dress and Sundries Shop" and then she says "after I find your credit card".  Seriously, people who wrote this commercial?  Women don't have their own credit cards?  And it's just utterly adorable how she's going to have to hunt down hub's card in order to go shopping for her girlish frou frous and stuff?  Ugh.

[peacheslatour]

5 minutes ago, Elizabeth Anne said:

Another commercial that seems like a '60s throwback.  This time it's a radio commercial.  A chirpy woman informs her husband that she's "going hunting" he is shocked and she clarifies "for bargains at Local Dress and Sundries Shop" and then she says "after I find your credit card".  Seriously, people who wrote this commercial?  Women don't have their own credit cards?  And it's just utterly adorable how she's going to have to hunt down hub's card in order to go shopping for her girlish frou frous and stuff?  Ugh.

Unbelievable. 

[PRgal]

6 hours ago, Elizabeth Anne said:

Another commercial that seems like a '60s throwback.  This time it's a radio commercial.  A chirpy woman informs her husband that she's "going hunting" he is shocked and she clarifies "for bargains at Local Dress and Sundries Shop" and then she says "after I find your credit card".  Seriously, people who wrote this commercial?  Women don't have their own credit cards?  And it's just utterly adorable how she's going to have to hunt down hub's card in order to go shopping for her girlish frou frous and stuff?  Ugh.

I see this as “lets use his card to p!$$ him off!  Maybe he’ll realize how often he buys useless $h!t!!!”

[peacheslatour]

Hey ladies and allies. Lets have an awesome Thanksgiving if you're in the states and don't let the dudes off the hook. If you're doing all the cooking, shopping and cleaning for your guests and their spouses, the least the guys can do is clean up afterwards.

[isalicat]

My late husband did the clean up after every meal I cooked; that was the deal. Seemed fair to us both! 😸 We generally shopped together though as I was working full time if something was needed on the spot, he would go out and get it.

Now I have to do everything myself. I hates it 😿

[peacheslatour]

17 minutes ago, isalicat said:

My late husband did the clean up after every meal I cooked; that was the deal. Seemed fair to us both! 😸 We generally shopped together though as I was working full time if something was needed on the spot, he would go out and get it.

Now I have to do everything myself. I hates it 😿

My husband and I have the same deal. Except when I bake because I do that when he's at work. If I'm alone someday, I doubt I'll do much cooking anymore. Kudos to you for keeping it up.

[Bethany]

Noticing  a lot of nastiness aimed at female celebrities, online but also among people I interact with personally.  I know, I know, not exactly new but it did seem that, for at least a little while, there seemed to be a lull.  Or maybe I just wasn't clueing in.  Anyway, whatever the reason I am getting really tired of the way men get a pass for things that women are going to get torn apart over.   Or at the very least there is an assumption that the woman did something to "deserve" the treatment she's getting.  Ugh. And the worst thing about this is it's almost always other women doing the tearing apart.  

[RealHousewife]

What do you all think of "men need to protect women?" Do you think it's natural because men are on average much stronger or outdated thinking/toxic or depends?

Sometimes I'll hear really misogynistic men say they believe in protecting women, and with those guys, I think it's more about their ego and wanting to feel masculine. 

I've always been attracted more to taller men. For me, it wasn't ever about wanting a protector though, at least not consciously. I'm just tall and like high heels. 

I've heard many women say they want a big, strong guy to protect them. It's oftentimes very petite women, the ones just around 5' or so. 

I do feel safer walking around in sketchy areas with a man, just because I feel like other men will be less likely to mess with me than if I were alone. I also don't think it's a good idea for women to be open about the fact they live alone if they'e single. I do think I'd feel safer if I were married or cohabited with a man. 

But the ultimate goal of feminists is for men to just behave, right? I've heard of stories where little boys feel a lot of pressure to protect girls, and feel responsible if something happens to their sisters. I think that's so unhealthy. 

I do also like the idea of protecting one another. I try to look out for everyone and be protective, and it's not always about muscles. I also don't think that means the person you're protecting is helpless. 

[PRgal]

We tiny gals feel more vulnerable and feel like we're more likely to be victims than people bigger than us - even if it's just conditioning.  I also think many of us like to play the cutesy role.  And yeah, I think doing the "cute" thing can be adorable...when you're under 25...it gets creepy when you're older.

[RealHousewife]

1 minute ago, PRgal said:

We tiny gals feel more vulnerable and feel like we're more likely to be victims than people bigger than us - even if it's just conditioning.  I also think many of us like to play the cutesy role.  And yeah, I think doing the "cute" thing can be adorable...when you're under 25...it gets creepy when you're older.

That makes sense. Because my frame is petite for more height, I still get nervous in certain situations because my 5'7" 110 lb. self isn't really stronger than my short friends. Some of them actually have bigger arms than me, but I think because I'm tall I'd be less likely to be kidnapped.

I can see that. I think some grown women play up the cute thing because a lot of men are into it. An example of that is Ariana Grande. She can't help that she's baby-faced, but her style while provocative, can also be very little girl.

[PRgal]

2 minutes ago, RealHousewife said:

That makes sense. Because my frame is petite for more height, I still get nervous in certain situations because my 5'7" 110 lb. self isn't really stronger than my short friends. Some of them actually have bigger arms than me, but I think because I'm tall I'd be less likely to be kidnapped.

I can see that. I think some grown women play up the cute thing because a lot of men are into it. An example of that is Ariana Grande. She can't help that she's baby-faced, but her style while provocative, can also be very little girl.

If you want the cute thing with grown women, try watching a Hong Kong rom-com, especially from the 90s or the naughts.  It's REALLY OVER THE TOP.  I remember girls at my high school who used baby voices, especially around boys (though not being around the opposite sex during the school day might have played a role.  Or even in the evenings, since many of these girls were boarders).  It was almost as prevalent as us Canadian girls trying to talk like main characters from Clueless.

[Bastet]

I don't need or want protecting specifically from a man specifically because I am a woman.  Parents have an obligation to protect their children, owners to protect their pets, etc. because children and pets are inherently dependent.  Women are not.

Among adults, there are times when two or more people are in a situation that turns dangerous in some way, and someone is, based on the circumstances of those involved, well suited to protect the other(s).  Because of that, they should. 

(And if a man is on about protecting women from other men, it would benefit us all if he'd turn his attention instead to educating his brethren on, ya know, not being harmful to us in the first place.)

Edited December 11, 2022 by Bastet

[RealHousewife]

14 minutes ago, Bastet said:

I don't need or want protecting specifically from a man specifically because I am a woman.  Parents have an obligation to protect their children, owners to protect their pets, etc. because children and pets are inherently dependent.  Women are not.

Among adults, there are times when two or more people are in a situation that turns dangerous, and someone is, based on the circumstances of those involved, well suited to protect the other(s).  Because of that, they should. 

(And if a man is on about protecting women from other men, it would benefit us all if he'd turn his attention instead to educating his brethren on, ya know, not being harmful to us in the first place.)

I never liked women being grouped with children. What do you all think of things like sinking ships or the draft? I feel bad for men in those instances. 

Yes, there are situations where I'd be a better protector than many men in the room. Maybe I'm the youngest and most agile.

True. I wish some of these men who pretend to be all chivalrous would first try to work on being respectful themselves. One guy I know who fancies himself as this big protector of women doesn't understand why women are offended by a man saying nice butt or boobs. I'm instantly uncomfortable around men who talk to/about women like that. I am not talking about noticing our bodies. I notice men's. I'm talking about the rude catcalls and whatnot. 

Edited December 11, 2022 by RealHousewife

[Bastet]

9 minutes ago, RealHousewife said:

One guy I know who fancies himself as this big protector of women doesn't understand why women are offended by a man saying nice butt or boobs.

I love Jen Kirkman's bit on men saying "Nice tits" to a woman:  Look, it's not hard.  If you're overwhelmed by the beauty of a particular pair of breasts, great.  Say it to yourself.  If you have time, drive out to the middle of nowhere, get out of the car, hit your knees, and holler thanks to God, "NICE TITS!"  But do not say it to random women trying to go about their day.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

What do you all think of "men need to protect women?" Do you think it's natural because men are on average much stronger or outdated thinking/toxic or depends?

I dislike it and think it is largely outdated belief based on toxic masculinity. 

4 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

But the ultimate goal of feminists is for men to just behave, right?

Is it? To me the ultimate goal of feminism was to be treated as equals but it’s not a subject I’ve studied at all. 

4 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

I do also like the idea of protecting one another. I try to look out for everyone and be protective, and it's not always about muscles. I also don't think that means the person you're protecting is helpless. 

This is how I feel. 

2 hours ago, PRgal said:

We tiny gals feel more vulnerable and feel like we're more likely to be victims than people bigger than us - even if it's just conditioning.

I’m only 5’2 and I can’t say I’ve ever felt like this. It may be because I didn’t grow up in a house that adhered to traditional gender roles. My mom worked for the police department as a non-sworn uniformed officer (no gun) so while she wasn’t particularly tall or big she was the one I looked to over safety concerns. This makes me wonder what my brother’s viewpoint would be. 

[Bethany]

39 minutes ago, RealHousewife said:

I never liked women being grouped with children. What do you all think of things like sinking ships or the draft? I feel bad for men in those instances. 

I don't.  Men generally have been ridiculously advantaged since the dawn of time.  So there are two times when women have a slight advantage - fleeing a sinking ship and not being expected to go to war - if that's the best society can offer me, I'll take it and I won't be shedding too many tears over men.  Who, when all is said and done, are the ones who imposed this on themselves.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, RealHousewife said:

I never liked women being grouped with children. What do you all think of things like sinking ships or the draft? I feel bad for men in those instances. 

I dislike them both and think they are outdated relics.  The boats thing in particular since it comes from a time when assholes didn’t have proper safety procedure. 

[Bethany]

8 minutes ago, Dani said:

The boats thing in particular since it comes from a time when assholes didn’t have proper safety procedure. 

Probably true of course but also from a time when women were disadvantaged by their attire as well.  I'd like to know how any woman was supposed to flee a sinking ship or a burning building or whatever in a long gown with petticoats and corsets etc.  

Still now when I think of people taking an "everyone for themself" attitude I see George Costanza knocking over little old ladies as he got out the room when a fire alarm went off.  Men, in general, will always have an advantage over women, in general.  

[theredhead77]

4 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

What do you all think of "men need to protect women?" Do you think it's natural because men are on average much stronger or outdated thinking/toxic or depends?

46 minutes ago, Dani said:

I dislike it and think it is largely outdated belief based on toxic masculinity. 

Same. I'll go a step further and say that women do themselves and every other woman a disservice by expecting men to protect them. Everyone should look out for everyone.

Years ago I was at a local bar with a buddy. He went to use the restroom and some drunk asshole started talking to me, and touching my arm when I ignored him. I finally had enough and said "stop fucking touching me" loud enough that my buddy heard me across the bar. Drunk dude tried to start sexist shit with my buddy (former Army, martial arts trained) and my buddy just said "dude, I'm more concerned about your safety if you don't stop touching her than I am about hers right now".  Drunk dude got kicked out.

1 hour ago, RealHousewife said:

What do you all think of things like sinking ships or the draft?

Is "women and children first" really still a thing? I've been on multiple cruises and never once have I heard that during the muster drill. It seems like "whataboutisim".

I also think the draft is whatboutisims. But since you asked, If there is another draft (unlikely in our lifetimes) women should be drafted.

[PRgal]

15 minutes ago, theredhead77 said:

Same. I'll go a step further and say that women do themselves and every other woman a disservice by expecting men to protect them. Everyone should look out for everyone.

Years ago I was at a local bar with a buddy. He went to use the restroom and some drunk asshole started talking to me, and touching my arm when I ignored him. I finally had enough and said "stop fucking touching me" loud enough that my buddy heard me across the bar. Drunk dude tried to start sexist shit with my buddy (former Army, martial arts trained) and my buddy just said "dude, I'm more concerned about your safety if you don't stop touching her than I am about hers right now".  Drunk dude got kicked out.

Is "women and children first" really still a thing? I've been on multiple cruises and never once have I heard that during the muster drill. It seems like "whataboutisim".

I also think the draft is whatboutisims. But since you asked, If there is another draft (unlikely in our lifetimes) women should be drafted.

That'll probably up the birthrate since they're not going to send pregnant women to war (women are going to try to get pregnant just to avoid being sent to combat).  Unless they all end up with domestic desk jobs.  But then that would also be sexist.  

[theredhead77]

6 minutes ago, PRgal said:

women are going to try to get pregnant just to avoid being sent to combat

Some women will, sure. And some men will try to injure or mame themselves to avoid going. But I still think bringing up a hypothetical draft is a whataboutisim and a red-herring since the chances of the US or Canada seeing any sort of draft in our lifetimes is slim-to-none.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Elizabeth Anne said:

Still now when I think of people taking an "everyone for themself" attitude I see George Costanza knocking over little old ladies as he got out the room when a fire alarm went off.  Men, in general, will always have an advantage over women, in general.  

But why does it have to be one extreme or another. Everyone rushing to escape or certain people waiting until it’s their turn to escape both create problems and make the process more difficult. Not prioritizing women doesn’t mean “everyone for themselves”. I am undoubtedly biased because my parents divorced so I frequently traveled with just my shorter than average dad. I would have also been screwed under a women and children first approach. 

5 hours ago, theredhead77 said:

Same. I'll go a step further and say that women do themselves and every other woman a disservice by expecting men to protect them. Everyone should look out for everyone.

I absolutely agree. 

5 hours ago, theredhead77 said:

I also think the draft is whatboutisims. But since you asked, If there is another draft (unlikely in our lifetimes) women should be drafted.

I agree. 

5 hours ago, PRgal said:

That'll probably up the birthrate since they're not going to send pregnant women to war (women are going to try to get pregnant just to avoid being sent to combat).  Unless they all end up with domestic desk jobs.  But then that would also be sexist.  

Or they’ll try the same things men try to avoid the draft. 

[RealHousewife]

1 hour ago, Dani said:

Is it? To me the ultimate goal of feminism was to be treated as equals but it’s not a subject I’ve studied at all. 

Oh to be clear, I meant in the context of why men protecting women is problematic. I am not an expert either but do know the definition of feminism and that’s it’s ultimately equality. I’ve heard a lot of “men protect women” in my life, and a lot of how it’s outdated/toxic, so I thought I’d ask any feminists here their thoughts. 

29 minutes ago, theredhead77 said:

Some women will, sure. And some men will try to injure or mame themselves to avoid going. But I still think bringing up a hypothetical draft is a whataboutisim and a red-herring since the chances of the US or Canada seeing any sort of draft in our lifetimes is slim-to-none.

Yeah but a lot of us have had and still have  family who’ve either been drafted or could be. I‘m American, but a lot of my family is not. Even if they weren’t, I’ve never been the type to only worry about countries I have a connection to. 

The reason I asked a couple of the questions above is because I thought they affect where the “men protect women” view comes from. I also still hear women say they like a protector, and  99% of the time, I don’t feel the need for a personal bodyguard as I go about my day. So I try to see that side too. 

[theredhead77]

Other countries have required military service and women are expected to serve. And for those that don't, in the unlikely event there is a draft, women should be drafted.

Not one single woman I know would ever say they want a man to protect them and it saddens me to hear that in 2022 women are still expecting men to be their protector. We are never going to have equality when we still play the helpless, damsel in distress card.

[Guest]

43 minutes ago, RealHousewife said:

Oh to be clear, I meant in the context of why men protecting women is problematic. I am not an expert either but do know the definition of feminism and that’s it’s ultimately equality. I’ve heard a lot of “men protect women” in my life, and a lot of how it’s outdated/toxic, so I thought I’d ask any feminists here their thoughts. 

1 hour ago, theredhead77 said:

That makes sense. I see your point. I’ve seen a lot of social media posts where the topic of protecting women comes up, often by men saying thing like “not all men”, and they do scoff at the idea that we wouldn’t need protecting if men would just not harass or assault women. Amazing how quick some people are to talk about “protecting women” but think it’s absurd to suggest that men are the problem. It’s like they care more about being seen as protectors than women actually being safe. 

[peacheslatour]

21 minutes ago, Dani said:

That makes sense. I see your point. I’ve seen a lot of social media posts where the topic of protecting women comes up, often by men saying thing like “not all men”, and they do scoff and the idea that we wouldn’t need protecting if men would just not harass or assault women. Amazing how quickly some people are to talk about “protecting women” but think it’s absurd to suggest that men are the problem. It’s like they care more about being seen as protectors than women actually being safe. 

THIS^^^^^

[Mondrianyone]

2 hours ago, theredhead77 said:

If there is another draft (unlikely in our lifetimes) women should be drafted.

Agreed, but only provided the Equal Rights Amendment is passed before that happens. I realize it's been sitting around for 50+ years, but I'm sure that'll be taken care of any day now.

[Bethany]

2 hours ago, Mondrianyone said:

Agreed, but only provided the Equal Rights Amendment is passed before that happens. I realize it's been sitting around for 50+ years, but I'm sure that'll be taken care of any day now.

Bingo.  I have no interest in getting into any kind of debate about whether women should be drafted or not when women do not even have autonomy over their own bodies, for instance. 

Women are being expected to be equal to the men when the reality is  until women have absolute control over their own bodies this is just another way men win, frankly.  A "hah hah girls, you want to be equal, well this is what you get".  Just like those obnoxious old posters that showed a woman trying to pee standing up and underneath it was written "until a woman can pee standing up she's never going to be equal to us".  Ugh.

I know I'm not expressing myself very well on this issue but  for me it still comes down to control.  Women ALREADY give up a helluva lot more than men in the control of their own body department,  Until that gets resolved debating something like the draft just gets my dander up,

Edited December 12, 2022 by Elizabeth Anne

[theredhead77]

That's actually why I consider the draft a red herring. The chances of it happening are so, so slim discussing it even in hypothetical terms distracts from present issues. Like the ones you mentioned.

[RealHousewife]

In case anyone here thinks I don’t think women’s rights in this country are of utmost importance because I’m not trying to start a debate on the topic, it’s because I already feel very strongly about reproductive rights, and it’s a topic widely discussed by everyone for many years. 

[JustHereForFood]

On 12/11/2022 at 10:06 PM, theredhead77 said:

Is "women and children first" really still a thing? I've been on multiple cruises and never once have I heard that during the muster drill. It seems like "whataboutisim".
 

I don't know about ships, but it is a thing in some people's minds when for example the subject of refugees comes up. People often feel differently when it's women with young children escaping horrible situations, than when it's young healthy men who, according to some people should "solve the situation in their own countries" instead of running away. Personally, I think everyone has a right to leave when they feel they need to and it shouldn't matter who they are, but I have seen and heard many people with the attitude I just described.

On 12/11/2022 at 10:31 PM, theredhead77 said:

Some women will, sure. And some men will try to injure or mame themselves to avoid going. But I still think bringing up a hypothetical draft is a whataboutisim and a red-herring since the chances of the US or Canada seeing any sort of draft in our lifetimes is slim-to-none.

Personally, I disagree with any forced draft on principle. But it's interesting how some opinions can change based on circumstances. I hope I don't get too off-topic here, but I used to be strongly anti-military until very recently and if my country didn't already abolish the required military service for men over a decade ago, I think I would have been protesting that, even if it didn't affect me as a woman. But then a war started literally right across the border from us and I was forced to re-evaluate a lot of my opinions about military, defence budgets and stuff like that. While I still disagree with a draft and it pains me a lot to see how many men (and sometimes trans women who don't have their paperwork sorted) have been forbidden to cross the border to safety and how many women have stayed with their sons or partners when they could leave, I can also see the point of it in the bigger picture. What is interesting to me is that when I talked about it with some men and said how I don't think that anyone should be forced to stay and defend their country, especially when it's obvious that most will do it voluntarily anyway, most of them disagreed with me and said that it should be taken as a duty and be mandatory (in case it's not clear, I'm talking only about the situation when one's country is attacked, not when they go fight into another country for any reason). So, while I feel that this is indeed one thing where men are disadvantaged for a change, it doesn't seem to me that they consider it unfair in general (I am not taking into account statements by obvious internet trolls about how every feminist who wanted equal treatment should report at the nearest army base or whatever).

And I don't think any women should be expected to fight either. The idea behind it being just men was that someone needs to take care of the children which would obviously not be possible if both men and women were drafted. (I haven't looked closely into it, but I think there are exceptions for men who are single parents). It's bad enough that I know about examples when parents had to send their children alone abroad because both of them happened to work as some essential jobs like police and were both unable to leave. Sometimes, the reallity becomes so heartbreaking that whatever principles one has formed before can go out the window.

Something similar applies to the previous question about protection, IMO. I'm not any kind of fighter and while I may think that I have enough repressed anger that would help me to defend myself, I need to also assume that in case I was ever physically attacked, the chances are very high that I would just freeze, because that is what many people describe as their initial reaction. And I would be very grateful in such situation if I was defended by anyone, man, woman, non-binary person, doesn't matter really.

The fact is that many of the men who attack women are shitty weak losers who think that we are an easier target and would never dare to attack a bigger/taller/stronger man, so whatever we may think about equality, the fact is that a man is more likely to deter them than a petite woman. Don't get me wrong, I don't like any of that and if I were to choose, I wuld pick Buffy as the person to defend me from any potential attacker, but strictly statistically speaking, a man is probably more effective in such situation in real life.

At the same time, I also second everyone who said that men who really want to help should start by having conversations with other men, to eliminate such situations from happening in the first place (but we know that won't help much because assholes will always exist). And I also agree that conversations about the topic can also get very sidetracked when it's just men talking and not listening to women about their own concerns. 

[Bastet]

33 minutes ago, JustHereForFood said:

People often feel differently when it's women with young children escaping horrible situations, than when it's young healthy men who, according to some people should "solve the situation in their own countries" instead of running away.

People also often feel differently about women with young children escaping horrible situations than women without children in the same crisis; when it comes to shelters and services for those suffering homelessness or fleeing domestic violence, there are significantly more available to women with children than those without.

I quit doing direct representation of DV victims long ago (I used to run the legal clinic of a DV shelter, but I burnt out), but I still do policy work, and advocating for more beds available in general, and specifically so that prioritizing the protection of children does not so egregiously strand the women who don't have them is a focus.  (As is pushing for more shelters to allow pets; a significant number of DV victims do not flee because they'd have to leave a pet behind -- a pet their abuser has threatened as a means of control over them.)

[PRgal]

42 minutes ago, Bastet said:

People also often feel differently about women with young children escaping horrible situations than women without children in the same crisis; when it comes to shelters and services for those suffering homelessness or fleeing domestic violence, there are significantly more available to women with children than those without.

I quit doing direct representation of DV victims long ago (I used to run the legal clinic of a DV shelter, but I burnt out), but I still do policy work, and advocating for more beds available in general, and specifically so that prioritizing the protection of children does not so egregiously strand the women who don't have them is a focus.  (As is pushing for more shelters to allow pets; a significant number of DV victims do not flee because they'd have to leave a pet behind -- a pet their abuser has threatened as a means of control over them.)

That’s great that you’re pushing for the allowance of pets but that would also push out those whose partners trained their pets to abuse them.  Or those who are fearful of animals (or certain breeds) in general.  It’ll be like the therapist who had a therapy dog but didn’t alert me (or mention anything on her website).  I do not like many dogs.  And her dog was a type I didn’t like (plus said dog had issues). 

[Bastet]

57 minutes ago, PRgal said:

That’s great that you’re pushing for the allowance of pets but that would also push out those whose partners trained their pets to abuse them.  Or those who are fearful of animals (or certain breeds) in general.  

No.  It's to create additional spaces with these allowances, not take away existing spaces.  There are always provisions for pet spaces and pet-free spaces among community areas in a shelter, and someone having a pet in their own room/suite doesn't harm those who are allergic or fearful in that resident's own room/suite.  Just like any apartment building, hotel, etc. -- managed co-existence.

[RealHousewife]

3 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

I don't know about ships, but it is a thing in some people's minds when for example the subject of refugees comes up. People often feel differently when it's women with young children escaping horrible situations, than when it's young healthy men who, according to some people should "solve the situation in their own countries" instead of running away. Personally, I think everyone has a right to leave when they feel they need to and it shouldn't matter who they are, but I have seen and heard many people with the attitude I just described.

Yes, this is another instance. People not only argue that young healthy men should stay and fight, but that no matter what country they're from, women and children aren't generally threats to the country they're seeking asylum. I'd go more into that but can be tricky with board rules. 

Loved your whole post and wish you safety and peace in your region of the world. ♥️

[Bethany]

The most recent idiocy from Jeremy Clarkson confirms, for me, why I am a feminist.  I am sick and tired of grumpy old white men ruling the frigging world.  It was like that when I was 12 and nothing has really changed.  People talk about Karens all the time but the Karens of the world still don't really have much power other than the power to irritate and annoy (admittedly not a small thing) but grumpy old white men have power.  Real power.  And that's not going to change anytime soon.

[Bethany]

Another few months go by and we've got a new round of men (mainly oldish and white) bemoaning Rhianna performing while :gasp: pregnant. The horror  because a pregnant woman dared to sing and dance in public, when clearly she should be hiding in a laundry room or kitchen somewhere.  I guess.  Likely there is more to the faux outrage than that but I'm just too exhausted with old white men daring to tell women what they can and cannot do.  Shut up already.

[PRgal]

22 minutes ago, Elizabeth Anne said:

Another few months go by and we've got a new round of men (mainly oldish and white) bemoaning Rhianna performing while :gasp: pregnant. The horror  because a pregnant woman dared to sing and dance in public, when clearly she should be hiding in a laundry room or kitchen somewhere.  I guess.  Likely there is more to the faux outrage than that but I'm just too exhausted with old white men daring to tell women what they can and cannot do.  Shut up already.

You know that other culture men (especially over a certain age) also think that way, right?  Male power is not exclusive to European cultures.  East Asian cultures are notorious for this kind of behaviour.  Confucius even wrote that women (and servants) are hard to deal with.  And Confucian philosophy more or less influenced cultures beyond China.  Some of these philosophies continue to this very day.  

[theredhead77]

2 hours ago, Elizabeth Anne said:

Another few months go by and we've got a new round of men (mainly oldish and white) bemoaning Rhianna performing while :gasp: pregnant. The horror  because a pregnant woman dared to sing and dance in public, when clearly she should be hiding in a laundry room or kitchen somewhere.  I guess.  Likely there is more to the faux outrage than that but I'm just too exhausted with old white men daring to tell women what they can and cannot do.  Shut up already.

 

1 hour ago, PRgal said:

You know that other culture men (especially over a certain age) also think that way, right?  Male power is not exclusive to European cultures.  East Asian cultures are notorious for this kind of behaviour.  Confucius even wrote that women (and servants) are hard to deal with.  And Confucian philosophy more or less influenced cultures beyond China.  Some of these philosophies continue to this very day.  

 

Are people beyond old white men pearl clutching over Rihanna's performing while pregnant? 

@PRgal of course this exists in other cultures. But the point I think Elizabeth Anne is trying to make is for her (and me), in our lives were tired of old white men trying to control women. That doesn't mean old men (or young men) of other cultures don't have the same thinking. One does not negate the other. Both can be true.

[PRgal]

6 hours ago, theredhead77 said:

 

 

Are people beyond old white men pearl clutching over Rihanna's performing while pregnant? 

@PRgal of course this exists in other cultures. But the point I think Elizabeth Anne is trying to make is for her (and me), in our lives were tired of old white men trying to control women. That doesn't mean old men (or young men) of other cultures don't have the same thinking. One does not negate the other. Both can be true.

That’s not how a lot of people read it.  There REALLY ARE people out there - especially those in the diversity and inclusion world - who believe that sexist attitudes come from European colonization and that alone.  It bugs me to the core because it implies that my ancestry had a very different attitude thousands of years ago.  It erases the very existence of Confucius, which is the basis of Chinese and other East Asian cultures 

[stewedsquash]

Eh Rihanna has made herself a 34 year old billionaire with her music, makeup, fashion line and didn’t get there worrying about what men, or women, think about her or her life. No one has been able to stop her by clutching anything. 

9 hours ago, theredhead77 said:

One does not negate the other. Both can be true.

That’s what @PRgal is saying. 
 

[theredhead77]

5 hours ago, PRgal said:

That’s not how a lot of people read it.  There REALLY ARE people out there - especially those in the diversity and inclusion world - who believe that sexist attitudes come from European colonization and that alone.  It bugs me to the core because it implies that my ancestry had a very different attitude thousands of years ago.  It erases the very existence of Confucius, which is the basis of Chinese and other East Asian cultures 

I'm not disagreeing with you. But I think you misunderstood the OP sharing her feelings of exhaustion about a situation in her world-bubble. It doesn't negate the misogyny and sexism in other cultures. I would be shocked if anyone posting here thought things were sunshine and roses in other cultures.

Edited February 14, 2023 by theredhead77

[peacheslatour]

1 hour ago, theredhead77 said:

I'm not disagreeing with you. But I think you misunderstood the OP sharing her feelings of exhaustion about a situation in her world-bubble. It doesn't negate the misogyny and sexism in other cultures. I would be shocked if anyone posting here thought things were sunshine and roses in other cultures.

I don't think any of us do. It's pretty bad worldwide. But this is some new research and it's devastating.

CDC data shows U.S. teen girls ‘in crisis’ with unprecedented rise in suicidal behavior

Health Feb 13, 2023 5:10 PM EST

The pandemic took a harsh toll on U.S. teen girls’ mental health, with almost 60 percent reporting feelings of persistent sadness or hopelessness, according to a government survey released Monday that bolsters earlier data.

Sexual violence, suicidal thoughts, suicidal behavior and other mental health woes affected many teens regardless of race or ethnicity, but girls and LGBTQ youth fared the worst on most measures, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention report. More than 17,000 U.S. high school students were surveyed in class in the fall of 2021.

In 30 years of collecting similar data, “we’ve never seen this kind of devastating, consistent findings,” said Kathleen Ethier, director of CDC’s adolescent and school health division. “There’s no question young people are telling us they are in crisis. The data really call on us to act.”

Edited February 14, 2023 by peacheslatour

[theredhead77]

6 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

I don't think any of do. It's pretty bad worldwide. But this is some new research and it's devastating.

CDC data shows U.S. teen girls ‘in crisis’ with unprecedented rise in suicidal behavior

Health Feb 13, 2023 5:10 PM EST

The pandemic took a harsh toll on U.S. teen girls’ mental health, with almost 60 percent reporting feelings of persistent sadness or hopelessness, according to a government survey released Monday that bolsters earlier data.

Sexual violence, suicidal thoughts, suicidal behavior and other mental health woes affected many teens regardless of race or ethnicity, but girls and LGBTQ youth fared the worst on most measures, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention report. More than 17,000 U.S. high school students were surveyed in class in the fall of 2021.

In 30 years of collecting similar data, “we’ve never seen this kind of devastating, consistent findings,” said Kathleen Ethier, director of CDC’s adolescent and school health division. “There’s no question young people are telling us they are in crisis. The data really call on us to act.”

I saw that report. It's hard enough being a grown woman and dealing with this shit let alone being a teenager and seeing what appears to be a bleak future as a second class citizen (of earth) with minimal bodily autonomy, very little hope of equal pay, being able to be openly discriminated against, a target to be murdered, etc...

[Bethany]

Just now, theredhead77 said:

I saw that report. It's hard enough being a grown woman and dealing with this shit let alone being a teenager and seeing what appears to be a bleak future as a second class citizen (of earth) with minimal bodily autonomy, very little hope of equal pay, being able to be openly discriminated against, a target to be murdered, etc...

I worried for my daughter and nieces when they were teenagers  but I had hope and optimism for them as well.  Now, with my little grandaughters I worry for them so much more than I ever worried for their mother.  I thought perhaps this was just a case of me being  older with more time on my hands to fret but reports like this make me realize, no it's not me.  So damn maddening.  

[Bethany]

36 minutes ago, theredhead77 said:

I'm not disagreeing with you. But I think you misunderstood the OP sharing her feelings of exhaustion about a situation in her world-bubble. It doesn't negate the misogyny and sexism in other cultures. I would be shocked if anyone posting here thought things were sunshine and roses in other cultures.

This is exactly what I meant.  But I do take your point as well @PRgal when I read about the situation for women in Afghanistan and, frankly, far too many other countries, I get mad and sad and discouraged and, well, mad as well.  But for me personally and for the women and girls I know well living in North America in 2023 I am just sick and tired of feeling like every time we take one step forward we end up taking two steps back.  It's exhausting.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Elizabeth Anne

[JTMacc99]

2 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

CDC data shows U.S. teen girls ‘in crisis’ with unprecedented rise in suicidal behavior

As the father of two teens when the pandemic started, I remember vividly having this conversation with a coworker (who is my age but does not have children) when it was decided that the schools where we live would NOT reopen in the fall of 2020:

Me: "The kids NEED to be back in school. It's not normal for them to be locked in their rooms. They need to be interacting with other kids. They need structure. They need to develop emotionally, socially, and they can't do it on Zoom. The emotional and mental damage we're risking far outweighs the health risks that this virus has for them."

Her: "Pfft. They'll get over it." 

I mean, I get that she was a big fan of the lockdowns, but it would have been nice to have a conversation with somebody who was open to my point about mental health is an important part of "health" in general. 

As for me being right, because I was right...

My out of pocket costs for mental health care for my kids in 2022 were about three or four times what I could put into my FSA. They're lucky that they have parent who can afford to attempt to help them. Many kids are just struggling to "get over it" with no help.

For what it's worth, my daughter has managed to turn the corner on this journey. My son, not so much, but we're still trying everything we can. 

 

[RealHousewife]

The above saddens me but doesn’t shock me. I really struggled as an adult woman during all of it. I felt like some people judged me for how seriously I took the pandemic as someone who’s still young and healthy, but once my mental health was at its worst, I was so sick of the social distancing and masking. Having enough of it already at a certain point wasn’t good enough for some folks. It didn’t matter that I took multiple shots for OTHER PEOPLE and barely had a life other than working and bullshitting on here. It’s just not good for your mental health to be so isolated and keep space and mask up when you finally see other humans. All of this doesn’t mean you’re with the side who believed the whole thing was a haux and that Bill Gates has put microchips in all of us and the hell with those who are vulnerable. Extremes on any issue are rarely a good idea. My heart really goes out to all who’ve suffered and are still suffering consequences of the pandemic. 

[Lady Whistleup]

Speaking of the pandemic during the pandemic I lost a close friend to covid. He was a nice man, but we constantly got into arguments because he was convinced that the world's ills were caused by women "not knowing their place is at home." He was convinced that the 1950s model (when he grew up) was the way to be, with dads working and moms staying at home. Said that when women encroached on "mens' spaces" everything bad started to happen. I couldn't convince him that even in the 1950s, plenty of women had to support themselves and their families with no husband in the picture. He kept saying that when women were allowed to go to work, they "loosened up" their morals. 

he passed away of covid after a very short battle, and I still miss him to this day, but definitely an example of how good people can believe really shitty things.

[Bethany]

My 10 yr old grandson was already a loner before the pandemic and hated school so lockdowns were a joy to him.  But we can see now that no matter how happy he may have been to be home so much it did him no favours as he is now back in school, still hating it, and having an even harder time making friends and not standing out as "the weird kid".  He too is in counselling now and it's helping.

My 7 yr old granddaughter on the other hand - well this is the first full complete (knock wood) year of school she will experience.  For her socially she's been fine but her teacher says she's at an early grade 1 level in her academic work instead of where she should be so my daughter gets to pay for counselling for her son and now extra tutoring for her daughter.  Covid, the gift that keeps on taking.

And bringing this back to why I am a feminist and speaking of Covid the pandemic disporportionately affected women, The Facts: Women and Pandemics

Quote

Soon after the pandemic began, it became clear that it would disproportionately impact women, girls, and gender-diverse people. “Across every sphere, from health to the economy, security to social protection, the impacts of COVID-19 are exacerbated for women and girls simply by virtue of their sex,” said a United Nations policy brief. “With the spread of the COVID-19 pandemic,” said the UN, “even the limited gains made in the past decades are at risk of being rolled back.”

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Elizabeth Anne