S12.E09: First Blood

[catrox14]

27 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I understand and you're probably right that it wasn't worse. But, they have done studies on isolation and isolation is used as a form of torture.  There was a prisoner back in the '60s that was in isolation and he went insane.  Something about a ball and a spider web.

I could believe it if it had been at least 6 months before Dean started to lose it. But it was like 2 maybe 3 months according to the TL.  Dean was in Hell for 40 years. This suggests that Dean, who was willing to be sent into outer space all alone with the Mark, for eternity, couldn't tolerate maybe 3 months alone even though he had human contact to an extent with hearing a voice and seeing a hand on the other side of the door bringing him food every day. And Dean knew that Sam was literally next door to him. 

Man that line just pisses me off more than most things in this show. It's absurd IMO.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I understand and you're probably right that it wasn't worse. But, they have done studies on isolation and isolation is used as a form of torture.  There was a prisoner back in the '60s that was in isolation and he went insane.  Something about a ball and a spider web.

Yes they were isolated, but not long enough for me to buy it was torture. Plus, the use of isolation as a way to break someone down is usually accompanied with other forms of torture, like never letting the person sleep or playing loud music and such. Here, they basically were just left in cells to be bored day in and day out, but had food, water and regular sleep cycles. So, I could buy them--Dean especially--getting antsy, but I don't buy that it even came close to torture for him. Especially after he'd already survived 40 years of actual torture in Hell.

39 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I could believe it if it had been at least 6 months before Dean started to lose it. But it was like 2 maybe 3 months according to the TL.

Yeah, as I recall, it was something like six weeks, not even two months. Which, I'd be climbing the walls after a one week, but I think I'd also adjust to the routine by the time six weeks rolled around.

[Katy M]

22 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Yes they were isolated, but not long enough for me to buy it was torture.

It was at least 6 weeks.  I suggest you try it before you say that's nothing.

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Yes they were isolated, but not long enough for me to buy it was torture. Plus, the use of isolation as a way to break someone down is usually accompanied with other forms of torture, like never letting the person sleep or playing loud music and such. Here, they basically were just left in cells to be bored day in and day out, but had food, water and regular sleep cycles. So, I could buy them--Dean especially--getting antsy, but I don't buy that it even came close to torture for him. Especially after he'd already survived 40 years of actual torture in Hell.

Yeah, as I recall, it was something like six weeks, not even two months. Which, I'd be climbing the walls after a one week, but I think I'd also adjust to the routine by the time six weeks rolled around.

Dean is pretty adaptable. He seemed okay in solitary in s2, and granted he was waiting to be released, but for him to just be like "I'm not praying to Cas, I'm not going to hold out hope for more than five minutes". 

Did Dean just forget about that Empty threat, from Billie  where...he cannot come back? Oh gods why did I even thing of that?  It's illogical for them to make that deal just to get out of prison after a few weeks to be sent somewhere they can NEVER get out. WAT?

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

It was at least 6 weeks.  I suggest you try it before you say that's nothing.

It was  no more than 6 to 8 weeks, before Dean gave up.  Dean is not an ordinary person who's never been through Heaven, Hell and Purgatory. He was getting 3 meals a day,  delivered by a person who spoke words that Dean could hear. That isn't completely solitary. Dean knew he was not completely alone.  And he knew that Sam was next door.  Dean also knew that prayer and longing are picked up by angels and specifically Cas. Whether Cas could have found him is a different thing. For me, Dean giving up after less than 3 months doesn't hold any water no matter what.

[DittyDotDot]

12 minutes ago, Katy M said:

It was at least 6 weeks.  I suggest you try it before you say that's nothing.

Um, excuse me, I did not say that's nothing. I said I didn't buy that it was as bad as Hell.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Um, excuse me, I did not say that's nothing. I said I didn't buy that it was as bad as Hell.

Yeah, I said it probably wasn't as bad as hell. That was hyperbole on Dean's part.  But, what you're going through now is worse than what's happene din the past.

[FlickChick]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Dean is pretty adaptable. He seemed okay in solitary in s2, and granted he was waiting to be released, but for him to just be like "I'm not praying to Cas, I'm not going to hold out hope for more than five minutes". 

Did Dean just forget about that Empty threat, from Billie  where...he cannot come back? Oh gods why did I even thing of that?  It's illogical for them to make that deal just to get out of prison after a few weeks to be sent somewhere they can NEVER get out. WAT?

Another example of our stellar writing this season! I cannot believe these are professional writers.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Yeah, I said it probably wasn't as bad as hell. That was hyperbole on Dean's part.  But, what you're going through now is worse than what's happene din the past.

What makes you say it was hyperbole on Dean's part? Why would he be hyperbolic about that? I don't see Dean being the type of character who thinks that whatever he is going through now is worse than his past given he's pretty much already experienced the literal worst things a person can experience; watching his mother burn to death;  40 years in Hell and 10 years torturing other souls; watching Sam jump into the pit with Lucifer inside him; being turned into his worst nightmare. I just can't see him throwing in the towel at 2 months especially when his BF  is an angel.

4 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Another example of our stellar writing this season! I cannot believe these are professional writers.

Seriously, I just realized that. It's utterly illogical for Dean to say that solitary confinement is worse than hell or to exchange it for a different solitary. IMO the only way that works for me is if Dean had made the deal without Sam's knowledge and that he was going to trade solitary on Earth for Solitary in another dimension so Sam could live. But they didn't say that so I'm left with. RUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHRRR

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Did Dean just forget about that Empty threat, from Billie  where...he cannot come back? Oh gods why did I even thing of that?  It's illogical for them to make that deal just to get out of prison after a few weeks to be sent somewhere they can NEVER get out. WAT?

I'm not sure it's any more illogical for them to make the deal knowing one of them would stay dead--I think that was the point--but, IMO, the deal itself was illogical because the stakes just weren't high enough to warrant this sort of deal. If one or the other of them had been in some actual danger in that prison that's a different story. But, they were both healthy and appeared to be coping just fine; neither was frazzled or appeared to be losing their minds from the isolation. It appeared to me, they just got tired waiting for someone to save them. Which, fair enough, but to trade your life doesn't really equate for me in this situation.

That's why I say this whole thing would've been better served if they'd committed to the idea and spread this out over a two or three--or even four--episodes. That way the deal and the escape would've felt earned and they could've actually changed the outside world in the time Sam and Dean were away making the transition into the British invasion work better too.

But, it was not to be, so I appreciate Sam and Dean running around outsmarting people and move on.

[Katy M]

Actually, I'm more disappointed in Sam with that deal than I am with Dean.  And the reason is, Sam's met Dean.  he knew there was no way  Dean was going to let him be the one to die. Dean was sacrificing himself for Sam yet again, which is totally in character.  But, Sam was letting him, which IMO, is not.  

[Hanahope]

I presume the title is a bit of an homage to Stalllone's film.  I liked that Sam and Dean didn't actually kill anyone (at least it didn't seem so).  but of course the MOL can't let anyone live to tell what happened, so they all had to die.  :(

Six weeks completely alone would definitely suck in that small room with nothing to do.  There's a reason they say solitary confinement is cruel punishment.  I chuckled over Dean being fine with the food, but Sam hating it.

Wow, for Cas to say Nope, no Winchesters are going to die.  I need you all.  Didn't really expect that.  Totally get that Sam and Dean would make that deal and I agree that Dean would be the one to make the sacrifice, at least before Mary offered herself up (and of course she would, most mothers would).  Gotta wonder what the cosmic consequences are going to be (or would have been, if Billy's dying actually stops things).

[The Companion]

On 1/26/2017 at 8:45 PM, companionenvy said:

 

4. And this is the biggie: I liked the Billie plot, but I actually don't believe Dean and Sam would have made that deal. Not after six weeks. And no, I don't buy that six weeks in isolation is worse than hell, which is literally designed to torture you in the most horrific way possible. And it took Dean thirty years to break there. In any case, even though I'm sure Dean intended to sacrifice himself, not Sam, if there's one thing that I really believe is worse than hell for Dean Winchester, it is being responsible for Sam's death. And there was a not-insubstantial chance that that's how things would have gone, as presumably Sam was planning on sacrificing himself for Dean as well, even if Dean didn't anticipate the Mary possibility. 

Also, I don't accept that the Winchesters had no other cards to play. Off the top of my head, they should have at least tried talking to the Feds at a certain point - which has worked for them in the past. Even if no convenient demons showed up to verify their story, I have to believe, after six weeks of isolation, they'd figure out a way that they could at least have a chance of convincing at least one Fed that they were telling a version of the truth. Heck, before they'd make a deal that had a chance of resulting in the other brother's death, I think they'd even risk giving the authorities the contact info of someone who could provide backup - Cas, Mary, Jody or another hunter. I mean, Cas has angelic powers. Mary could be proven to be their mother - who is known to be dead, and isn't as old as Mary Winchester should be. That seems like a better play than the route they went.

So, I liked the episode a lot, but it required turning my brain off. 

Yes, this is exactly right to me. The episode was enjoyable but the plot hols were large enough to drive a truck through and I cannot accept the idea that this was worse than hell or the cage. It doesn't help that they just reminded us a few episodes how resilient Sam was in the face of torture. These guys have both had extreme experiences that make it highly unbelievable that they would crack. Especially if it meant one of them dying.

On 1/26/2017 at 9:01 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

Agreed. Unless they just couldn't conceive of that happening. Though even I have to admit that I was surprised that they killed the lab tech and periphery people also.

 

They damn well better have gotten every janitor, secret service member, and boss up the chain of command. If anyone is still alive, the Winchesters will be blamed for murdering the entire lot on their way out the door.

On 1/26/2017 at 9:33 PM, SueB said:

.
- Geez, is Mary a Winchester or WHAT.  Insta-sacrifice, making a deal with BMoL.  I'm thinking she got this bad DNA from her Dad and passed it onto the boys.  
 

 

Hee. I thought the same thing. Oh, secrets, lies, and deals to sacrifice herself? The apple didn't fall far from the tree here.

On 1/27/2017 at 2:57 PM, DittyDotDot said:

So heavily guarded they could just walk out the front door and stand in "parking lot" chatting to their angel on the phone. Those were the worst soldiers ever!

Right? They strolled right out. Not even a locked door between the morgue and the exit.

On 1/27/2017 at 9:32 PM, Boopsahoy said:

That's what I thought and then I remembered in Raw Meat Dean had to kill himself to talk to Billie. If it was as easy as saying "Billie" why did he have to down those pills?

Sigh. It made no sense. They literally re-established these rules not long ago.

And as also noted upthread, it was glaring when Mary held the gun up because it was a clear reminder about Billie not killing them.

On 6/5/2017 at 9:05 PM, MysteryGuest said:

I just watched this episode again tonight, and while there certainly were some holes or unanswered questions, I thoroughly enjoyed seeing Dean and Sam in survivor mode.  As others have pointed out, so often the writers make one of them screw up to give the bad guy/monster the upper hand, at least temporarily.  In this episode, they were kickass from the moment they got out until Cas found them.  It was a joy to watch.  There have been a few episodes like this...Night Shifter comes to mind right away, but not nearly enough for my taste.  I wish they'd write more episodes like this.  The boys weren't super human, but they absolutely were clever and experienced, which they would be after living the life they have.  I want more of this!!

I think I do end up here. I enjoyed the episode despite the holes and retcons. I loved watching the guys work together and outsmart their pursuers. I really am willing to give the show a lot of leeway when the guys work together competently.

I loved Castiel's speech. They don't let MC stretch his acting legs nearly enough. 

I also loved the hug with Mary, her determination to get the guys back and her willingness to sacrifice to save them. 

[gonzosgirrl]

It is around this time when I really began to question if we all get the same episodes beamed to our screens.

The only thing I enjoyed about this episode was the borrowed, "Well, what we have here is a failure to communicate. 'Cause we're not trapped out here with you. You're trapped out here with us."

Unfortunately, pretty much anything Mary says or does falls flat with me. I just don't believe her, or believe in her.

Personal spoiler re the character/actress:

Spoiler

This is not helped by the actress's own take on the character and the situation. Samantha Smith's desperate desire to be kick ass and not 'Nightgown Mary' colours her performance, IMO. Listening to her speak at the Toronto con confirmed this for me. Blech.

 

[The Companion]

35 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It is around this time when I really began to question if we all get the same episodes beamed to our screens.

The only thing I enjoyed about this episode was the borrowed, "Well, what we have here is a failure to communicate. 'Cause we're not trapped out here with you. You're trapped out here with us."

Unfortunately, pretty much anything Mary says or does falls flat with me. I just don't believe her, or believe in her.

Personal spoiler re the character/actress:

  Hide contents

This is not helped by the actress's own take on the character and the situation. Samantha Smith's desperate desire to be kick ass and not 'Nightgown Mary' colours her performance, IMO. Listening to her speak at the Toronto con confirmed this for me. Blech.

 

It's so tough when an actor/actress doesn't work for you, especially one as central to the story as Mary has been this season (and doubly so when she has been built up for 12 seasons). This was how I felt about Amara. I just couldn't buy her as a primordial being and felt like a lot of her acting choices were bad.

I think I was just grateful in this episode that they let the guys do something together and let them be badasses. I get so tired of the dumb (see how they got arrested in the first place) and the sudden incompetence (luckily, it appears the guards caught that particular plot-induced condition instead). 

[Katy M]

9 hours ago, The Companion said:

Right? They strolled right out. Not even a locked door between the morgue and the exit.

That didn't really bother me much. Historically speaking, dead people aren't huge flight risks. 

[The Companion]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

That didn't really bother me much. Historically speaking, dead people aren't huge flight risks. 

While that is true, I still would expect some security around a morgue. I guess I can fanwank no cameras and easy access so they can move bodies without a record of it?

[Katy M]

7 minutes ago, The Companion said:

While that is true, I still would expect some security around a morgue. I guess I can fanwank no cameras and easy access so they can move bodies without a record of it?

Don't forget that this is a supersecret facility where the employees are blindfolded to be brought there.  So, those probably work differently.

[ahrtee]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Don't forget that this is a supersecret facility where the employees are blindfolded to be brought there.  So, those probably work differently.

Wouldn't that mean more security, not less?  

OTOH, it does make me wonder who/how many people they keep there, that they have the need for a morgue in the first place...

Edited February 26, 2020 by ahrtee
clarification.

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Wouldn't that mean more security, not less?  

OTOH, it does make me wonder who/how many people they keep there, that they have the need for a morgue in the first place...

Actually, that's exactly what I was wondering when I was typing so I decided to cut it short.  

Why have a morgue?  

Once Sam and DEan were dead they may have dismissed the extra security.  I mean they really had no reason to think they were going to pop back up alive.  

[The Companion]

10 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Wouldn't that mean more security, not less?  

OTOH, it does make me wonder who/how many people they keep there, that they have the need for a morgue in the first place...

That's a good point. A fully equipped morgue with an employed coroner? Don't they know why people die in their custody? Why are they performing autopsies? Wouldn't they want fewer records of the people they killed? It isn't like they are preparing for Court cases. I have questions. 😂

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, The Companion said:

That's a good point. A fully equipped morgue with an employed coroner? Don't they know why people die in their custody? Why are they performing autopsies? Wouldn't they want fewer records of the people they killed? It isn't like they are preparing for Court cases. I have questions. 😂

Just because you perform an autopsy doesn't mean you have to keep the records:)  I mean, I guess I can see in this case being a little curious as to why two healthy guys in their thirties just randomly plopped over dead at the same time.   What are the odds of that?  

[The Companion]

16 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Just because you perform an autopsy doesn't mean you have to keep the records:)  I mean, I guess I can see in this case being a little curious as to why two healthy guys in their thirties just randomly plopped over dead at the same time.   What are the odds of that?  

Sure, but are you performing enough autopsies to merit a fully equipped morgue? I am less surprised they would want one in this case, and more wondering why they would have the table and body storage, etc. 

[Katy M]

14 minutes ago, The Companion said:

Sure, but are you performing enough autopsies to merit a fully equipped morgue? I am less surprised they would want one in this case, and more wondering why they would have the table and body storage, etc. 

I pretty much agree.  But, on the other hand, it's supersecret, so even if they just have one autopsy to perform ever, they're still going to need the facilities because they can't do it elsewhere.

What's more odd is that apparently nobody is ever going to question all those dead, or at least missing, agents that was the blood bath at the end.  They should have just sent Cas back to where all the agents were incapacitated and told him to wipe their memories.  Like he did last episode.  I'm running with a theme here.

[The Companion]

10 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I pretty much agree.  But, on the other hand, it's supersecret, so even if they just have one autopsy to perform ever, they're still going to need the facilities because they can't do it elsewhere.

What's more odd is that apparently nobody is ever going to question all those dead, or at least missing, agents that was the blood bath at the end.  They should have just sent Cas back to where all the agents were incapacitated and told him to wipe their memories.  Like he did last episode.  I'm running with a theme here.

Sorry, Cas can't do it because *spins wheel* plot reasons. 

[ahrtee]

15 minutes ago, Katy M said:

What's more odd is that apparently nobody is ever going to question all those dead, or at least missing, agents that was the blood bath at the end.  They should have just sent Cas back to where all the agents were incapacitated and told him to wipe their memories.  Like he did last episode.  I'm running with a theme here.

Don't worry.  The BMoL are so superspecialsecret that I'm sure they have a way to keep anyone from finding out whatever they do.  After all, nobody in the whole US at least ever even heard about them until they revealed themselves.  

[The Companion]

26 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Don't worry.  The BMoL are so superspecialsecret that I'm sure they have a way to keep anyone from finding out whatever they do.  After all, nobody in the whole US at least ever even heard about them until they revealed themselves.  

So secret that even the writers didn't know about them? 😆

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, The Companion said:

So secret that even the writers didn't know about them? 😆

These writers could hide their own Easter eggs, so I'm gonna go ahead and say yes.