S01.E04: We Interrupt This Program

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Clint would make sense though. If there is an Avenger who has a connection to Wanda it is him.

Sam trained with Wanda after Ultron and was in exile with her after Civil War. Of the characters left Clint has the most on screen time with her but Sam has been with her the most overall. Either character would work. 

2 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

That we know of. 

Also, why would a third party broadcast in black-and-white?

Why would anyone broadcast in black-and-white? Why would anyone broadcast the show at all? Those are answers we don’t have yet. 

[kay1864]

1 hour ago, Dani said:

Why would anyone broadcast in black-and-white? Why would anyone broadcast the show at all? Those are answers we don’t have yet. 

 I think you misunderstood my question. There is zero reason for anyone at Sword to be broadcasting in black and white. But within Wanda‘s fantasy, if she is creating a sitcom world that was originally broadcast in black-and-white, then it’s internally consistent for *her* to do so.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

 I think you misunderstood my question. There is zero reason for anyone at Sword to be broadcasting in black and white. But within Wanda‘s fantasy, if she is creating a sitcom world that was originally broadcast in black-and-white, then it’s internally consistent for *her* to do so.

No I understood. My point is that there are more than two options and it impossible to know why the broadcasts exist without more information. The broadcast make no sense for Wanda or Sword. I could see it as a passive result of whatever Wanda is doing (if it’s entirely her doing) but the broadcasts aren’t passive. They are being manipulated. 

[Cthulhudrew]

36 minutes ago, Dani said:

No I understood. My point is that there are more than two options and it impossible to know why the broadcasts exist without more information. The broadcast make no sense for Wanda or Sword. I could see it as a passive result of whatever Wanda is doing (if it’s entirely her doing) but the broadcasts aren’t passive. They are being manipulated. 

The broadcasts are radiowaves along the EM spectrum of the cosmic microwave background radiation that Darcy detected. The assumption is that it is a byproduct of Wanda's powers; either the radiation is produced when she uses her powers, or she actually utilizes CMB for her "hex" effects. Perhaps it has never been noted before because she hasn't used her powers on such a scale or in such a localized manner before.

It is possible that it is an outside agency responsible for all of this, but my read on it- at least for now- is that this is just some funky side-effect of what she's doing, and completely unintentional (indeed, likely would never have been noticed if SWORD hadn't brought in different experts to investigate).

Why it is being broadcast in B&W rather than full color? It's not; the audience is seeing exactly what Wanda is seeing; as we see, Wanda and the Vision and everyone in Westview is actually black and white (hence Wanda's surprise when seeing the color drone, and both of their surprises when they suddenly switched to Technicolor at the end of episode 2.) Wanda is manipulating the light waves within Westview; this is probably also the explanation for Vision's holographic "human" disguise (and his real horrific appearance being hidden underneath a similar hologram).

The reason Darcy needed an old tube tv was just to be able to pick up the analog signal; she frankly could probably have just as easily gotten a DTV analog converter box and external antenna to attach to a flatscreen tv.

Edited February 3, 2021 by Cthulhudrew

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

The broadcasts are radiowaves along the EM spectrum of the cosmic microwave background radiation that Darcy detected. The assumption is that it is a byproduct of Wanda's powers; either the radiation is produced when she uses her powers, or she actually utilizes CMB for her "hex" effects. Perhaps it has never been noted before because she hasn't used her powers on such a scale or in such a localized manner before.

It is possible that it is an outside agency responsible for all of this, but my read on it- at least for now- is that this is just some funky side-effect of what she's doing, and completely unintentional (indeed, likely would never have been noticed if SWORD hadn't brought in different experts to investigate).

Just because I have a different take it doesn’t mean I don’t understand. I feel like they are strongly hinting that something else is in play. I completely acknowledge I may be wrong, although I will be extremely disappointed if the timeline issues amount to nothing. It’s all just theories for now. 

[Cthulhudrew]

3 minutes ago, Dani said:

Just because I have a different take it doesn’t mean I don’t understand. I feel like they are strongly hinting that something else is in play. I completely acknowledge I may be wrong, although I will be extremely disappointed if the timeline issues amount to nothing. It’s all just theories for now. 

Sorry- didn't mean to imply that your ideas are invalid. You may well turn out to be right: the tv intros and commercials, in particular, seem odd additions to the broadcasts even if Wanda is otherwise manipulating events within Westview, for instance. It could be that there is some Mojo-like character on the wings picking up what is going on inside of Westview and doing some professional editing, whether or not that is the party responsible for her current status or just capitalizing on it. We'll find out soon, hopefully.

On another note, it is my understanding from interviews that at least portions of these episodes were actually filmed in front of live studio audiences. I wonder if we'll ever get to see those live takes in some form: either as outtakes or as re-edited full or partial episodes of the live scenes. Some of it wouldn't work too well (the special effects for instance), but I think it would be kind of neat to see the live action sequences outside of the overall narrative of the tv show. 

[arc]

1 hour ago, Cthulhudrew said:

this is probably also the explanation for Vision's holographic "human" disguise

Y’know, between Infinity War and this show so far it’s still never been clear to me whether Wanda or Vision is powering his human disguise. That moment in ep 1 where she had to remind him about it does seem like he’s doing it, though.

[Chicago Redshirt]

6 hours ago, kay1864 said:

I would think she’d have to be the one doing it. First, Darcy and Woo appeared surprised at the transmission. Second, if someone at Sword is doing the broadcasting, surely Wanda would notice two or three TV cameras (each!) in her different fantasy living rooms, kitchen, and front yard. 

We simply have to stay tuned. Obviously, the nature of the broadcast has nothing to do with SWORD -- they are just observers trying to figure things out.

Wanda could just unwittingly broadcasting this in the way it is, as some sort of side effect of her powers. As we have seen both within the series and in the real world, her control over her powers can vary and there can be unintended consequences when she tries to manipulate things.

She could be consciously recording/broadcasting the way it is, as part of wanting her life to have sitcom perfection, where all problems are relatively minor and things work out for the best in 25 minutes or less.

Some external force could have done a Monkey's Paw on her wish that life was like a sitcom to actually make her live life like a sitcom.

An external force could just have happened on all this radiation, seen what was going on and then amplified it for purposes ranging from amusement to stuff more sinister.

[formerlyfreedom]

Hey, let's get back to the episode and take spoilers, spec, and interview/media mentions to the appropriate topic. Thank you!

[paigow]

Wanda: What should we watch tonight?

Vision: Netflix

Wanda: No [Vision freezes, then rewinds]

Vision: HBO Max

Wanda: NO!!!!!!!! [Vision falls to the floor, unconscious]

[Ottis]

On 1/29/2021 at 5:38 AM, Dani said:

Westview was a real town. The ID’s shown were all for people who lived there. Whatever is happening has somehow erased the town and it’s residents from people’s minds. 

Yeah, so here's the thing: I don't care. I am not invested in Westview. And the fact Wanda seems to be creating this bubble, to keep Vision alive, is disappointing. There's no conflict there. Let the woman live in dream world. or not. But it doesn't matter to me.

I would have liked it better if someone was doing this *to* Wanda. Then we would have had a bad guy and a reason to root for someone. Right now I feel like Wanda just needs to go see a shrink.

And the old sitcom bits do appear to just be an indulgence for the writers. Meh. Glad we saw behind the curtain. Just wish what we saw was interesting.

[Kromm]

1 hour ago, Ottis said:

Yeah, so here's the thing: I don't care. I am not invested in Westview. And the fact Wanda seems to be creating this bubble, to keep Vision alive, is disappointing. There's no conflict there. Let the woman live in dream world. or not. But it doesn't matter to me.

I would have liked it better if someone was doing this *to* Wanda. Then we would have had a bad guy and a reason to root for someone. Right now I feel like Wanda just needs to go see a shrink.

And the old sitcom bits do appear to just be an indulgence for the writers. Meh. Glad we saw behind the curtain. Just wish what we saw was interesting.

No conflict?  I personally see huge ones.

I do understand not feeling personally invested, because it's not something you saw happen, but it's been made clear she's quite literally enslaving these people. I understand that viewer's reactions do genuinely vary, but in terms of what writers of a show expect from an audience and what they write assuming, I don't think it was bad writing for them to assume a level of empathy from the audience for what's being done to these people.  Possibly for Wanda as well, but we've been left intentionally uninformed on her ultimate level of culpability.

I think they have good reason to believe it will work for much of the audience.  Clearly it won't hit for everyone though.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 2/5/2021 at 3:14 PM, Ottis said:

Yeah, so here's the thing: I don't care. I am not invested in Westview. And the fact Wanda seems to be creating this bubble, to keep Vision alive, is disappointing. There's no conflict there. Let the woman live in dream world. or not. But it doesn't matter to me.

I would have liked it better if someone was doing this *to* Wanda. Then we would have had a bad guy and a reason to root for someone. Right now I feel like Wanda just needs to go see a shrink.

And the old sitcom bits do appear to just be an indulgence for the writers. Meh. Glad we saw behind the curtain. Just wish what we saw was interesting.

Assuming that Wanda is doing this all on her own, there still could and should be some internal conflict. If would be one thing if Wanda had a psychic break and just was imagining all this in her head. But it is clear that the people of Westview are actual real-life people with drivers' licenses and lives that are more than being Wanda's puppets. Some part of her -must realize that is a problem and will come into conflict with the selfish part of her that wants to play happy homemaker with Vision. 

It's very possible, and I would say almost certain, that someone/something else is doing this to Wanda. It is just not as apparent as the typical bad guy. 

[MagnusHex]

On 2/6/2021 at 5:14 AM, Ottis said:

Yeah, so here's the thing: I don't care. I am not invested in Westview. And the fact Wanda seems to be creating this bubble, to keep Vision alive, is disappointing. There's no conflict there. Let the woman live in dream world. or not. But it doesn't matter to me.

I would have liked it better if someone was doing this *to* Wanda. Then we would have had a bad guy and a reason to root for someone. Right now I feel like Wanda just needs to go see a shrink.

And the old sitcom bits do appear to just be an indulgence for the writers. Meh. Glad we saw behind the curtain. Just wish what we saw was interesting.

See, that's why I don't really care about traditional TV shows or even traditional storytelling. There's always this desire to see an old-fashioned bad guy fight some good guy. That's boring. I like the non-traditional story here that's just examining Wanda's trauma. It's the kind of thing that's missing from Endgame because everyone just wants to see a fight. Yawn.

I'm loving the series so far and its patient pacing. I don't want them to just throw in some generic bad guy. Let Wanda be at fault. Let Wanda be the one who has to sort out her emotional trauma. That's more interesting for me.

You know what WandaVision is adding to the MCU? Tragedy. A full-blown tragedy without fights, just a woman's existential crisis trying to recover from her trauma. That's an amazing and ambitious genre shift for Marvel here, and I'm glad they have the balls to do it. Forget about your cliched villains and trying to save the day. Just show us characters trying to struggle with human issues. That's far more interesting.

For once, I would love to just see an MCU entry where the only antagonist is human nature itself, not another bad guy that needs to be defeated. WandaVision seems to fit that bill so far. Marvel is often criticized compared to DC because they lack ponderous stories like that and often resort to typical  mainstream action comedies. Show us that you trust in the audience's patience and intelligence.

Edited February 10, 2021 by MagnusHex

[Ottis]

13 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

See, that's why I don't really care about traditional TV shows or even traditional storytelling. There's always this desire to see an old-fashioned bad guy fight some good guy.

Don't mistake my point. I never said we needed to see a good guy fight a bad guy. I said we needed a conflict that was interesting. Wanda vs. her own mind isn't interesting, especially when it is due to the cliche or grief over losing someone she loves. How many times have we seen that across all genres? 

I like a thoughtful conflict, like B5 and its eventual reveal that

Spoiler

the bad guys were actually simply another perspective on how to move humanity forward.

That has nothing to do with a battle.

 

13 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

For once, I would love to just see an MCU entry where the only antagonist is human nature itself, not another bad guy that needs to be defeated.

That's pretty much what all good movies and TVs are about. The fight is the sideshow.

[MagnusHex]

4 hours ago, Ottis said:

Don't mistake my point. I never said we needed to see a good guy fight a bad guy. I said we needed a conflict that was interesting. Wanda vs. her own mind isn't interesting, especially when it is due to the cliche or grief over losing someone she loves. How many times have we seen that across all genres? 

Not really that cliched when it involves what's literally reality-bending powers that lets you literally escape reality and shape it into whatever you want. There's the grey moral question of whether if your bent reality is real enough to be accepted, or if you should just accept your original reality and move on. That's a far more interesting topic to explore than just your traditional storytelling conflict.

Edited February 11, 2021 by MagnusHex

[Chicago Redshirt]

11 hours ago, Ottis said:

Don't mistake my point. I never said we needed to see a good guy fight a bad guy. I said we needed a conflict that was interesting. Wanda vs. her own mind isn't interesting, especially when it is due to the cliche or grief over losing someone she loves. How many times have we seen that across all genres? 

I actually I can't think of anything where the central conflict was a person against his or her own mind out of grief. Yes, there are plenty of examples of grief as a motivating force. But there almost always is an external antagonist for the protagonist to fight, usually the source of the grief. 

Can you name, say, five examples where the main conflict is internal grief?

[Kromm]

There are plenty of stories about internal conflict. Grief doesn't have to be the only example of that. Stories about Dissociative Identity Disorder aka "Split Personality" is a frequent example, for one. Is there an external antagonist in the movie Sybil, for example?  I don't recall one.  

Or sometimes stories have no antagonist. Does Forrest Gump have one? Or speaking of Tom Hanks, does Castaway?  Even some Horror movies, where the protagonist is the source of the horror. Does The Fly have an antagonist? 

Okay, how about The Godfather?  Sure Michael Corleone has enemies, but does he really have any antagonist worse than himself and his bad choices? 

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 hours ago, Kromm said:

There are plenty of stories about internal conflict. Grief doesn't have to be the only example of that. Stories about Dissociative Identity Disorder aka "Split Personality" is a frequent example, for one. Is there an external antagonist in the movie Sybil, for example?  I don't recall one.  

Or sometimes stories have no antagonist. Does Forrest Gump have one? Or speaking of Tom Hanks, does Castaway?  Even some Horror movies, where the protagonist is the source of the horror. Does The Fly have an antagonist? 

Okay, how about The Godfather?  Sure Michael Corleone has enemies, but does he really have any antagonist worse than himself and his bad choices? 

There are plenty of stories WITH internal conflict. I would imagine most stories have that on some level.

The other poster argued -- as I read it, anyway -- that stories like what we've seen so far of Wanda's where the character's grief over losing a loved one is the driving force is so common as to be cliche. 

If that's the case, it should be a fairly simple matter to name some. 

Naming movies without antagonists doesn't count. 

Sure, there are movies tha teature mentally ill protagonists. But I at least can't think of ones where the mental illness was caused by the death of a loved one.

Yeah, the Godfather isn't in the ballpark of what we're looking for.

1. Grief over losing a loved one

2. Causwes mental illnesss/internal conflict

3. That is the driving force of the movie/series

 

Edited February 11, 2021 by Chicago Redshirt

[swanpride]

Well, I guess, there is Psycho 4 (in which Norman Bates basically struggles with himself...though granted, his problems are about more than the death of a loved one). A little closer to your brief is "incredible loud and incredible close", which is about a boy dealing with the loss of his father.  I would also add "Up", though naturally there is an antagonist in the end, the actual story is all about the loss of Ellie and overcoming the grief over it. Then there is the first season of Cloak and Dagger...sure, there is a side plot regarding a mystery which has to be solved, but the main story is actually about Tyron and Tandy dealing with the death of a beloved family member. Beaches, though I guess that movie is more about a loss which is about to happen instead of one which already has happened. The Intouchables is not just about how to treat people with physical impairments, but also about overcoming grief. "Sophie's Choice" might count, though it is not the protagonist who works through trauma in this one And a perfect fit is certainly "The Colours: Blue" a movie which is all about a women dealing with the loss of her husband and daughter.

Those are just the ones I have seen, there are more movies about the topic, but honestly, it would be a lie to claim that those kind of movies appeal to me particularly.

[Kromm]

What would be the big deal if a movie had never been made with this exact theme?  I certainly won't decry it being an original premise. 

I get that the original premise was that such a theme made it uncompelling. But that's clearly just an opinion, so we don't really need to debate it. 

[MagnusHex]

And not to stray off too far from the topic at hand, but I think that what WandaVision was doing could've invited future storytellers to tell similar stories where there'd be no clear antagonists (I use "could've" because it's pretty clear by now that there is a villain involved). There are a large number of comic book storylines like that, such as Superman just saving a troubled kid from jumping off the roof, or Spidey visiting a cancer kid. You know, human stories like that instead of "Let's defeat a bad guy!" I felt like WandaVision could've set that trend. I'd love to see a short film of "The Kid Who Collects Spider-Man" for once, or even a similar story like WandaVision where a mutant sorts out her five stages of grief through her superpowers with potentially damaging effects.

The main 'conflict' that's kept me hooked so far is that, Wanda is trying to live out a fantasy, one that's against Vision's wishes. That clash in philosophy between Wanda and Vision, that's the interesting conflict right there, that clash in human and relatable ideals that's as far from the simpler concepts of "heroes" and "villains" as you can throw. It's grief counseling, that's what it is, and maybe not just for Wanda either, but perhaps even for viewers dealing with loss and acceptance.

The one way this might not work, however, is that it might have a cliched ending. Ottis was right to a certain extent regarding stories like these, because these tales usually unfold in a few familiar ways, and the cliched way would be like having Vision comforting Wanda that she needs to move on and that he's in a better place or some sappy Hallmark Channel stuff like that. For me, a better outcome would be to have Wanda remain in grief before becoming the main villain of Dr. Strange 2. That would be all kinds of controversial, but I think there are tactful ways to deal with this, especially when emotional grief is a rather realistic issue that can't be resolved in a short amount of time (especially if the implied villain in WandaVision aggravated her recovery process). Wanda could become the main villain of Phase 4, and not only would that be interesting narratively, her reality-bending powers could open all sorts of doors (literally and metaphorically) to other universes, be it the X-Men or the other Spider-Verses, or even the Fantastic Four. Wanda could easily mess up reality so bad that all those problems of explaining continuity, such as where (episode 5 spoilers)

Spoiler

Evan Peters' version of Pietro

came from, would be non-existent.

Regardless, WandaVision is a golden opportunity for Marvel to prolong the lifespan of the MCU by tenfold.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, Kromm said:

What would be the big deal if a movie had never been made with this exact theme?  I certainly won't decry it being an original premise. 

I get that the original premise was that such a theme made it uncompelling. But that's clearly just an opinion, so we don't really need to debate it. 

It's not a big deal either way. I just don't think it has been done, certainly not enough to render it cliche.

I get that it is not to everyone's taste and that people might find an internal grief-and-mental-illness fueled struggle boring. No disputing matters of taste and all that.

But to say anything about it is cliche...well, I want to see some receipts.

To be fair, even just within genre fiction, the losing of a loved one and subsequent grief is a common plot point. Spider-Man (almost always) has to be shown losing Uncle Ben. We've seen Batman's parents get gunned down in the alley who knows how many times. Superman loses his home planet and usually Pa and/or Ma Kent, etc etc. If that was what was meant by grief over losing a loved one being cliche, then point taken. But I would say that is so broad as to be meaningless. That's like saying "good guys saving the day" is cliche. 

But there are a couple things that distinguish WandaVision from those:

1. The aforemention heroes don't have mental breaks, or at least are not portrayed as such. No one would argue Spidey has gone insane because of his grief. 

2. The subsequent stories focus on the external conflict between good guy and bad guy.

For my money, I would be fascinated to see a Batman/Spider-Man/Superman story that put the superheroics to the side and just focused on the hero's mental health. I think it would be a daring choice to do something like the Joker movie but for a hero. 

Edited February 11, 2021 by Chicago Redshirt

[Bruinsfan]

On 1/29/2021 at 4:02 AM, phalange said:

I like how all the things that would be incongruous are changed to make more sense. The drone is changed into a helicopter, the agent in the hazmat suit is dressed like a beekeeper, and his harness becomes a jump rope when he crosses the barrier. (Side note: that jump rope is identical to the ones I remember from elementary school, and man did those plastic beads hurt like hell if you whapped yourself in the ankle!)

Speaking of the agent, what happened to him when Wanda rewound time? It's weird that whenever Wanda shorts out the radio or rewinds time Darcy and the others can't see it. 

This effect is behaving exactly like something seen several times in the comics: "master spells" to alter reality into that of another time period cast by the black magicians Kulan Gath and Morgan Le Fay. (Wanda herself was caught up in the first attempt to do so by Gath, improvised a way to protect her fellow Avengers from it in his second, and was used as a conduit to power Le Fay needed to project the effect worldwide.) It involved not only transalting objects into equivalents that fit the altered reality, but adjusting people's minds and memories so they accepted everything and behaved accordingly.

On 1/29/2021 at 7:55 PM, paigow said:

Vision IS Wanda... Like others have mentioned, he represents part of Wanda struggling to reach the real world

I'm not so sure. It seems likely she's responsible for his resurrection. But if that's really his deactivated body walking around with a crushed forehead then it's possible Vision's mind is still contained in his synthezoid brain and operating independently of Wanda's control once she repairs the damage and turns him back on.