Borgen - General Discussion

[scrb]

Netflix has announced it's bringing Borgen back for a fourth season in 2022

https://www.vulture.com/2020/04/borgen-season-4-netflix.html

Third season aired in 2013 so it will be almost 10 years!

Birgitte Nyborg was in a few episodes of Westworld on HBO.

 

I'm going to try to rewatch.  Chose to watch Borgen back in the day and never got started on House of Cards, which Borgen is often compared to.

[khyber]

Borgen was great. Hope to see what they do.

[thecdn]

I'm just finishing season one and this is a really good show. Looking forward to watching the rest and wondering how they will do a season four ten years later. 

As a Canadian I've been thrilled at the chance to watch some great shows from Denmark, Norway, Poland, and other places I would never have known about without Netflix and Amazon Prime. 

[Brn2bwild]

Thanks for starting this thread.  I began watching Borgen several years ago, but the sites were not official and the episodes were difficult to view.  So glad I can watch the whole series on Netflix (and now it's rumored there will be a fourth season?).  The first couple of episodes feel depressingly familiar to me, watching a highly capable woman doubt herself, be dismissed by other men in power, and be reliant on a male mentor (at least for now) to explain to her what's what.  I look forward to seeing her flex her power more in future episodes.

[statsgirl]

To my great surprise, this show in a foreign language about the workings of government grabbed me and hels me tight.

I'll be really interested to see what Borgen + 10 looks like.

On 9/5/2020 at 6:31 PM, thecdn said:

 

As a Canadian I've been thrilled at the chance to watch some great shows from Denmark, Norway, Poland, and other places I would never have known about without Netflix and Amazon Prime. 

I've been watching it on TV Ontario .  Yay for public broadcasting .

[Brn2bwild]

I've watched the first eight episodes so far.  I have to wonder if this show had premiered after the launch of #MeToo and #TimesUp if it would have had less patience for "Prince" Phillip and his continuous man pain.  It was clear from the first episode that he was never truly on board with his wife becoming Prime Minister.  All he's done so far is complain about what he's had to take on and what he's given up.  Dude, your wife is the PRIME MINISTER.  She is possibly THE most important person in the country.  She will have time for you LATER.  Were the situation reversed and she had to give up a promising political career to stay home with her kids while he worked, I'm sure he wouldn't have thought twice about it.

Overall, there is surprisingly little celebration of Nyborg being Prime Minister.  Her husband hates it, while her kids are like "whatever."  Her husband's students and people she passes in public don't seem to care.  Even her father just acts pissed off that she has one of his heroes arrested.  It seems like there could have been a little more joy at what she's accomplished, and that the costs could be woven in with more subtlety.  Then again, it's Denmark.  Maybe being Prime Minister isn't a big deal there the way it would be in the UK, Canada, or some other countries.

ETA: Season One really does, in many ways, parallel Season One of The Crown.  Woman gets top power role that no one expected her to get (at least not so soon).  She and husband are happy beforehand, but all too quickly, the marriage falls apart because the husband cannot handle putting his needs second (at least in Prince Phillip's case, he was facing a lifetime of being second, not a handful of years), and by the end of the 10 episodes, the husband was speeding the other way.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Brn2bwild

[Constantinople]

I think Philip bailed too early, but I think after being PM for a year, Birgitte should have a better handle on work/life balance. Yes, she's Prime Minister, but she's Prime Minister of Denmark, a country of 5.8 million people. There are 20 states in the US that are more populous, and a couple of states that are close. If the Governors of, say, Wisconsin and Massachusetts never spend time with their families, at a certain they're overstating the importance of their jobs.

That said, one thing I really like about this series is that the character's behavior and the handling of political issues seems much more realistic than House of Cards (UK ) and the few episodes I saw of House of Cards (US). I liked House of Cards (UK) a lot, including the sequels, but the characters' behavior and the story lines were often over the top.

I wonder if there was confusion on the set when someone said Birgitte, given that Birgitte is the name of the fictional Prime Minister and of the actress who plays Katrine the journalist.

 

[Brn2bwild]

On 9/23/2020 at 6:45 AM, Constantinople said:

I think Philip bailed too early, but I think after being PM for a year, Birgitte should have a better handle on work/life balance. Yes, she's Prime Minister, but she's Prime Minister of Denmark, a country of 5.8 million people. There are 20 states in the US that are more populous, and a couple of states that are close. If the Governors of, say, Wisconsin and Massachusetts never spend time with their families, at a certain they're overstating the importance of their jobs.

That said, one thing I really like about this series is that the character's behavior and the handling of political issues seems much more realistic than House of Cards (UK ) and the few episodes I saw of House of Cards (US). I liked House of Cards (UK) a lot, including the sequels, but the characters' behavior and the story lines were often over the top.

I wonder if there was confusion on the set when someone said Birgitte, given that Birgitte is the name of the fictional Prime Minister and of the actress who plays Katrine the journalist.

 

Wisconsin and Massachusetts don't have a foreign policy, though, and their governors don't sign treaties or take several other actions expected of the head of a national government.  

Plus, 5.8 million might seem small to us, but that doesn't make it small, and it could still come with endless responsibilities.  We can't say that Birgette "should have a better handle on work/life balance" because we don't know how stressful it really would be because we likely won't ever have such responsibility.  And if you're in Birgette's position, would you want to fail and hand government over to the selfish asshole heads of the Labour or Liberal Party? 

I think the real problem is the expectation that she should hold a position of such responsibility yet be your typical working mom.  She's not a typical working mom (even considering that working moms are a LOT more burdened than our society is willing to admit).  They should have gotten outside help to run the household from the very beginning.  She and her husband should have sat down with the kids and explained that life is going to seem very different for a while, and mom might have to miss more time with them, but she still loves them, etc.  The problem is that her family kept thinking that everything else should stay the same even though clearly it could NEVER stay the same.   

Edited October 4, 2020 by Brn2bwild

[Constantinople]

On 10/4/2020 at 3:24 PM, Brn2bwild said:

Wisconsin and Massachusetts don't have a foreign policy, though, and their governors don't sign treaties or take several other actions expected of the head of a national government.

There are different types of treaties, but as an example, no one in the Danish government is directly responsible for trade treaties. That's all handled by the EU. Member countries of the EU aren't permitted to even negotiate trade matters with non-EU countries. Similarly much of Denmark's defense policy is guided by, or constrained by if you prefer, its membership in NATO.

I'm not saying the Prime Ministership of Denmark is unimportant, but I do believe people, particularly people in positions of power, tend to overstate their importance. If I recall, Belgium, which has almost twice the population of Denmark, went without an elected government for almost 600 days after the 2010 elections. And Denmark didn't collapse into anarchy once Birgitte was no longer Prime Minister.

That said, I agree they should have hired outside help from the beginning, and should have had a talk as you suggested. But Birgitte needed to step up a little. She made her family such a low priority that she wouldn't even put her foot down tell the staff at the Prime Minister's residence what her family would prefer to eat when they're staying there.

[Brn2bwild]

On 10/5/2020 at 1:07 PM, Constantinople said:

There are different types of treaties, but as an example, no one in the Danish government is directly responsible for trade treaties. That's all handled by the EU. Member countries of the EU aren't permitted to even negotiate trade matters with non-EU countries. Similarly much of Denmark's defense policy is guided by, or constrained by if you prefer, its membership in NATO.

I'm not saying the Prime Ministership of Denmark is unimportant, but I do believe people, particularly people in positions of power, tend to overstate their importance. If I recall, Belgium, which has almost twice the population of Denmark, went without an elected government for almost 600 days after the 2010 elections. And Denmark didn't collapse into anarchy once Birgitte was no longer Prime Minister.

Technically, you could argue because the U.S. didn't collapse within the first year of Trump's presidency that the person who occupies that office is not that important, but crack upon crack formed and grew. I think going without a competent elected government for an extended period of time does cause great harm, even if you can't always see it when it's happening.  Birgette's rivals might not have been monsters, but from her point of view, they would both make Denmark worse off.

That said, I agree they should have hired outside help from the beginning, and should have had a talk as you suggested. But Birgitte needed to step up a little. She made her family such a low priority that she wouldn't even put her foot down tell the staff at the Prime Minister's residence what her family would prefer to eat when they're staying there.

True, she should have spoken up, but I think we underestimate how much pressure "firsts" feel to conform to established norms to show that they belong in their roles.

[Capricasix]

I’m just finishing the first season. I remember wanting to watch it last fall when it was on TVOntario, but didn’t have the time, so I bought it on iTunes.

I want to punch Philip in the nose. What a jerk.

[MJ Frog]

Wow, I am not even done with the 1st season and all I can think is what a little bitch the husband is. How many women with careers and families are going through exactly what he can't seem to stop complaining about? Without even being married to a prime minister? This is definitely one of those situations where reversing the sexes would be very revealing and instructive. Grow up, dude, Have some faith in what your wife is trying to do -- she's got the biggest of big girl jobs and this is just the way things have to be for a while. Not forever, just for a while. 

Jesus wept, I'll bet money that Jed Bartlet never had to go through this crap with Abby.

Edited May 25, 2021 by MJ Frog
Too many t's.

[Roseanna]

On 9/16/2020 at 8:41 AM, Brn2bwild said:

I've watched the first eight episodes so far.  I have to wonder if this show had premiered after the launch of #MeToo and #TimesUp if it would have had less patience for "Prince" Phillip and his continuous man pain.  It was clear from the first episode that he was never truly on board with his wife becoming Prime Minister.  All he's done so far is complain about what he's had to take on and what he's given up.  Dude, your wife is the PRIME MINISTER.  She is possibly THE most important person in the country.  She will have time for you LATER.  Were the situation reversed and she had to give up a promising political career to stay home with her kids while he worked, I'm sure he wouldn't have thought twice about it.

I think just the opposite: Philip was an usually good and decent man and in the beginning he and Brigitte had a good marriage and strong sexual attraction after many years and two kids. Just like he had promised, in the beginning he supported his wife and even gave her useful advice. But then the demands of her job became too great, she really wasn't at all present at home and totally ignored his needs and even they children's needs, they had no sex for ages and finally she gave him orders like she was his boss (especially when she demanded him to sell his stocks because of her career). Maybe he shouldn't have given up their marriage so soon, but at least he refused to pretend a happy couple in public unlike the former male PM's whose wife became an alcoholic and a shop addict. 

Besides the former PM, there are other male characters whose marriage suffers because of the job: in the 2nd  season Brigitte's mentor Bernt and the 3rt season the TV news chief Torben Friis. 

All in all, I think the show describes characters, male and female, who must decide what is most important to them. If they put their career ambition and power before everything else, they aren't judged but rather understood. 

On 10/4/2020 at 10:24 PM, Brn2bwild said:

I think the real problem is the expectation that she should hold a position of such responsibility yet be your typical working mom.  She's not a typical working mom (even considering that working moms are a LOT more burdened than our society is willing to admit).  They should have gotten outside help to run the household from the very beginning.  She and her husband should have sat down with the kids and explained that life is going to seem very different for a while, and mom might have to miss more time with them, but she still loves them, etc.  The problem is that her family kept thinking that everything else should stay the same even though clearly it could NEVER stay the same.   

Well, in the Nordic countries, even a PM must look like an ordinary person. 

However, I don't think it was so simple than to hire help, because both children got problems. 

[Roseanna]

On 9/23/2020 at 4:45 PM, Constantinople said:

Yes, she's Prime Minister, but she's Prime Minister of Denmark, a country of 5.8 million people. There are 20 states in the US that are more populous, and a couple of states that are close. If the Governors of, say, Wisconsin and Massachusetts never spend time with their families, at a certain they're overstating the importance of their jobs.

 

On 10/4/2020 at 10:24 PM, Brn2bwild said:

Wisconsin and Massachusetts don't have a foreign policy, though, and their governors don't sign treaties or take several other actions expected of the head of a national government.  

Plus, 5.8 million might seem small to us, but that doesn't make it small, and it could still come with endless responsibilities.  We can't say that Birgette "should have a better handle on work/life balance" because we don't know how stressful it really would be because we likely won't ever have such responsibility.  And if you're in Birgette's position, would you want to fail and hand government over to the selfish asshole heads of the Labour or Liberal Party? 

I don't know how Wisconsin and Massachusetts are governed, but Brigitte was a PM of a coalition government of many parties. These parties were in the endless battle over power with each other. Also, the government soon lost its majority in the parliament, so each law must be supported by some opposition party that of course demanded some compensation for its support. Finally, Brigitte couldn't even trust all ministers of her own party. 

That said, Brigitte was also a typical A+ girl who believed that she must read all papers and do, or at least watch, all herself. But who are we to judge her? After all, she loved her job and succeeded to fulfill most of her reform program, making some compromises but following mostly her values. 

 

[Roseanna]

I have now watched the 4th season. It's much darker than the seasons 1-3. Brigitte's children are left home, so she can fully concentrate in her job as a Foreign Minister. The first time it seems that she likes power in its own sake, not because of the matters she can forward with it. and is ready to do anything not to loose it. 

The Prime Minister is a younger woman who represents "Workers' Party", but that doesn't seem to be an improvement. Although she skillfully uses social media in order to create about herself an image of "an ordinary woman", her decision-making is dictatorial and secret and in addition she is vengeful. 

[Constantinople]

It was interesting watching Nyborg become so focused on retaining power for its own sake that she would change her party's position during a live news interview without even consulting with her parliamentary party members, much less the party in general. Then hiring Laugesen to be your spin doctor and social media advisor, but knowing it looks so bad you have to keep it a secret.

It was also interesting watching the conflict between environmentalism, self-determination by Greenland, and greed. It really came off as 21st century style colonialism: we know better how to run your land than you do, but we won't interfere provided we get a fat slice of the pie and, by the way, we're the ones who protect you from the big fish. Perhaps protection racket is a better way to characterize it.

My main criticism is that with only 8 episodes, some resolutions felt rushed, particularly in the final episode. But I'll think I'll save that for another post or posts.

[Constantinople]

I was disappointed with what they did with Katrine Fønsmark. Putting her in charge of TV1 news made sense, but then almost everything she touches turns to ashes. There's no guarantee she would be successful in her role after being a successful news anchor, print journalist and political advisor. But I think she would be at least be mediocre and not make every situation worse.

Perhaps because there are only 8 episodes and because Nyborg is the main character, much of Fønsmark's time is focused on Nyborg and the fallout from it. And since Nyborg is largely protected by plot armor, Fønsmark is mostly unsuccessful.

Narciza Aydin, one of the news anchors, is replaced by a colleague to interview Nyborg after a previous interview didn't go to Fønsmark's standard. But we later find out Aydin had twice been voted the country's most popular news anchor, and we already knew TV1 had seen ratings declines. Would Aydin really be pulled from the interview under those circumstances? Maybe, but I wonder. It felt a little rushed.

[aghst]

I've watched 5 or 6 episodes so far.

First thing is that they brought back most of the cast, just for continuity but a lot of them have bit parts now so maybe they could have created some other characters, which they did and gave them bigger roles.

One exception is Magnus has a bigger role but is it the same actor, a 10-11 year old all grown up?  

Kind of surprised that Katrina is so tough on Birgitte.  I guess she has to demonstrate that she isn't swayed by her previous relationship with Birgitte but maybe she's overcompensating.

It's jarring how Birgitte compromises on her ideals to hold on to her job.  Not only changing her position on oil in Greenland but actually hiring Laugesan and taking his advice with social media, doing selfies with the US Secretary of State.

They wanted to highlight how big social media is, with both Birgitte and Katrine affected adversely by it.

Still it seems like Birgitte's poll numbers tanked very fast.  And some of the vile tweets and posts that Katrine was subjected to.

Another thing that is surprising to me is how often Birgitte does interviews, goes on TV1 almost every day that they ask her.  I don't know if that's representative of Danish politics.  That was surprising to me in the first 3 seasons as well.  I thought it was just a dramatic device since some of the main characters are journalists.  Yet the PM and now Birgitte are using social media a lot because they're constantly managing their personal brand, even giving up some privacy, rather than governing.

Hopefully the ratings are doing well enough and there will be more seasons.  I don't know yet how this season ends but it seems like Birgitte compromising on her policies and being at her political bottom is just the path they want to show.  Maybe if not within this season, then in future seasons.

[aghst]

This is suppose to be the last season.

The show runner said “never say never” but the actress who plays Brigitte says it’s done.

So she did the honorable thing, found a way to stop the drilling and resigned as party leader, now can ride off into the sunset in Brussels.

[Adgirl]

I love Borgen especially Brigitte Nyborg. I really think making Phillip quit the job was the last straw. Kristine Fronsmark is a self righteous pain in the butt...she managed to undermine Brigitte at every turn even though she claimed to be a great fan of hers. 

I didn't love the 4th season but this show is better written than most American shows and especially the political shows. Hope they can find a way to move it forward with a new cast.