S02.E13: Mr. Jones

[CabotCove]

 

Well I did like the finale, though Im not sure I want to carry on with the show moving forward. 

The cast is too huge, they keep adding more and more characters. Core relationships/friendships are neglected.The so called Liz/Maria/Alex friendship does not exist.  Maria and Rosa barely had scenes this season, yet they made a big deal about them being close before she died. I forget Kyle and Rosa were brother and sister until this episode. Flint and Helena were underwhelming as season villains, just like Jesse Manes was. 

Michael has really become a despicable and trashy character, making love confessions for Maria and a few minutes later wanting to get back with Alex. Apparently his relationship with Maria all season long and last season meant nothing to him. And Alex making a play for Maria's boyfriend right in her bar, who need a so called best friend like that, he will gladly step over Maria for his own selfish desires. M/A are both trash. So the show is just gonna start a new love triangle, spend some time on Alex/Forrest for it to end up be utterly meaningless.  

Tripp/Nora,  that I can believe is cosmic. Love the chemistry, so effortless. Kyle and Steph were sweet, and im glad Liz saved Steph. Liz deserve to be away from the trashy, ungrateful aliens and have some peace in California. 
 

Quote

I have a problem with Max and the rest of the Triplet using Liz and her research to cover and save their asses, but the second she wants to use that same research to save other lives, 'it's too dangerous', burn your lab to the ground.

Agree about that, they are written to be self righteous, selfish and controlling. The way they act is like they are superior and they don't care about humans. Im not saying I dont see the problems with what Liz did, but I just find the pod squad to be rigid and uncompromising, making demands and never listening to what the human has to say. 

Edited June 18, 2020 by CabotCove

[RachelKM]

On 6/17/2020 at 2:53 PM, Pallida said:

I feel petty, but the excellent points above about the ethics of treating Steph with alien-derived treatment (whether synthesized or not) without any trials has made me hope there's some kind of negative side effect. I want Liz to be humbled by her rush-rush-rush attitude having consequences. (And I really wish the writing didn't make me want this.) 

I have been pondering since I saw this yesterday.

First, never apologize for your feelings.  Genius arises from all of our different emotions. 😉  Also, pettiness and schadenfreude are two of my favorite emotions, particularly as to television characters... but, like, also in life.

As to the idea itself.  

Possible scenarios I've come up with:

1. I would love it if Steph developed abilities she has no ability to control or understanding of and freaked the fuck out on Liz for 1) treating her with an un-tested, alien species derived treatment without her consent and 2) turning her into a "freak."  And then Steph dumps Kyle who turns on Liz for at least 5-7 episodes. (No way they'd let it last. But I'd enjoy his disdain while it lasted.)
2. Steph is fine for weeks before she rejects the treatment and collapses in the Crashdown where she dies unceremoniously at the feet of Rosa.  Bonus points if the kid who works in the kitchen whose name escapes me actually gets to react.  I like that kid. 
3. In honor of my Marvel/Hydra cracks earlier, Steph develops abilities and becomes a super villain and the future nemesis. 

I'm sure I'll think of more. Pettiness and irrational ire are two of my most effective imagination engines.

Edited June 19, 2020 by RachelKM

[shapeshifter]

22 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

• I would love it if Steph developed abilities she has no ability to control or understanding of and freaked the fuck out on Liz for 1) treating her with an un-tested, alien species derived treatment without her consent and 2) turning her into a "freak."  And then Steph dumps Kyle who turns on Liz for at least 5-7 episodes. (No way they'd let it last. But I'd enjoy his disdain while it lasted.)
• Steph is fine for weeks before she rejects the treatment and collapses in the Crashdown where she dies unceremoniously at the feet of Rosa.  Bonus points if the kid who works in the kitchen whose name escapes me actually gets to react.  I like that kid. 
• In honor of my Marvel/Hydra cracks earlier, Steph develops abilities and becomes a super villain and the future nemesis. 

Those are my thoughts too.  Now if only Carina et al. can join the Mind Meet-up. 

 

1 hour ago, CabotCove said:

The cast is too huge, they keep adding more and more characters. Core relationships/friendships are neglected.The so called Liz/Maria/Alex friendship does not exist.  Maria and Rosa barely had scenes this season, yet they made a big deal about them being close before she died. I forget Kyle and Rosa were brother and sister until this episode. Flint and Helena were underwhelming as season villains, just like Jesse Manes was.

All of this. I guess either Carina has serious ADHD when she writes character arcs, or they are trying to save money by paying cast members less per episode. 

[Cristofle]

15 hours ago, mandigirl said:

If we're going to go into ethics, why the heck doesn't Max consent for goodness sake? If someone said that your fingernail clippings could cure heart disease, saving millions, potentially billions, is it ethical for you to just say 'Nah.' No blow back to you, nothing invasive. You don't even let them try? I have a problem with Max and the rest of the Triplet using Liz and her research to cover and save their asses, but the second she wants to use that same research to save other lives, 'it's too dangerous', burn your lab to the ground. There's something off about that to me. 

There is absolutely no way for Liz to present this research in a way that will not eventually come back to the aliens. She is living in a fantasy world that she thinks so. The government already HAS alien DNA on file; it's not like she'd be presenting something that no one has ever seen. The risk of "blowback" is quite high, and the danger is not abstract - they've seen with Caufield what the government will do to them if they get exposed. None of the aliens are obligated to risk horrible torture for a cure for human illnesses. 

Also, Max never actually asked Liz to do anything, because he was too dead at the time, lol. She was not "used" by him; she chose to help save him (and more or less browbeat Michael into it, so he wasn't using her either) and he is not obligated to give up his genetic material in return if he doesn't want to. 

[mandigirl]

17 hours ago, RachelKM said:

Max doesn't consent because he fears that fingernail could lead to the exposure of him and his family and result in them living in captivity ... So I'm cool with Max prioritizing his family's safety over a maybe medical breakthrough that, honestly, how is Liz going to publish without putting aliens at risk again?  

Again, this endangerment argument would be much much stronger if the Triplet were actually laying low and not, you know, doing random crap to get themselves exposed on. the. regular. just for farts and giggles. There's Rosa, Flint (at an alien conspiracy festival no less! To quote one of my favorite comedies 'It's almost like you want to die!') and Isobel chugging nail polish remover from the bottle in a middle of a crowded bar. Those are just off the top of my head!

They do reckless, highly visible stuff to draw attention to themselves that has zero beneficial value. So life-saving research being the hill Max suddenly decides to dig his heels in on is distasteful. Do they have to agree? No. But if their reason is a risk of exposure, Liz's back alley experiments don't hold a candle to the s%& they've done, lol. But I guess mileage will vary on this one. 

Max's sanctimonious bs is underscored by how he made sure to save the vials of that orange serum he's so fond of ( 1. Liz created that through her research btw and 2. the serum is probably one of the most dangerous things to the Triplet in that entire lab, so what was his drivel about shutting down the lab to 'protect his family'?) but then torched all the other research and materials that could have helped, you know, any one else. How the eff is that oK??

Jokes on him, because the gross majority of Liz's research so far helped and protected the aliens, most recently when she was able to whip up an alien bio-agent for the bomb at the fair so that Max et co wouldn't be branded as terrorists. But no biggie. Next time he needs something like that, hope they can whip that up with whatever's at the local CVS. 

17 hours ago, RachelKM said:

If someone told me there was a limited possibility* that taking my blood would cure some diseases but, in doing so, I could be exposing myself and my family to a future of captivity and torturous experiments, I'd be a little protective and resistant. 

IRL, makes sense. In the world of the show, Liz cured a rare disease with little more than some basic lab equipment and a couple of late nights. So in the show construct, curing world disease given decent resources and time, was much more than a 'limited possibility'. 

[peachmangosteen]

11 hours ago, mandigirl said:

In the world of the show, Liz cured a rare disease with little more than some basic lab equipment and a couple of late nights.

I don't think we know that. Sure, Steph 'feels better' but that's all we know for now. She could drop dead in the season 3 premiere. I mean, I doubt they'll go the route because Carina thinks Liz is totally awesome and nothing she's doing is wrong so I don't see her doing anything but making Liz's cure work. Still, the possibility is certainly there that it doesn't.

I think Liz's actions are really fucked up and her real reasons for doing it seem to be more about proving how great she is than truly caring about curing human diseases but I also think Max was fucked up to just go torch her lab while making sure to steal some of his drugs first. Just because one of them sucks doesn't mean the other one doesn't suck lol. 

[shapeshifter]

This show would probably be better if they had a biological science consultant.

[Cristofle]

Isobel drinking out of a nail polish bottle isn't remotely on the level of Liz using alien DNA to try and produce some sort of mass cure for unknown diseases and ailments, as someone whose uncle used to put his alcohol in really...unexpected places, lol, only to then drink in front of everyone. Rosa being in Roswell is straight up ridiculous, to herself and to the aliens, there is literally no earthly reason for that girl not to have gone out of the state and stayed there for everyone's safety. But still. It's not using alien DNA for something you would like to take public. 

Max is involved in some serious self-harm behavior with the serum (which incidentally, Liz created after she created a death serum that she used harvesting his cells, lol - I didn't hold that against her at the time because Max was lying to her and she had no reason to trust he wasn't dangerous, but at the same time it's not like the creation of that serum has nothing to do with his biological material). But at the end of the day, I think he and all of the aliens can do risky things and still put their foot down when Liz is trying to experiment without their consent, because #1, she is not one of them and she is not putting herself at risk on the level she is putting others at risk with very little or no regard to their safety, and #2, I generally believe that Max doesn't need a reason to not want to be part of her experiments. I'm huge about bodily autonomy - I may personally find it a bit shocking if someone refused to donate their organ to save a family member, but I'd go down fighting for their right to do so. Max owes Liz no explanation as to why he does not want her experiments on his DNA (and she did not deny that she'd continued to harvest unknown things from him when he challenged her on it) to continue. Neither does Michael. Neither does Isobel. 

[KittenPokerCheater]

Max is going to have an interesting time, now that theres's no more serum since Liz left town.

I think Liz acted super rashly, and using the alien's DNA without permission is cold. And a huge invasion of privacy.  For next season, I hope they trim the cast significantly.  Too many pieces on the board.

[shapeshifter]

51 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

Rosa being in Roswell is straight up ridiculous, to herself and to the aliens, there is literally no earthly reason for that girl not to have gone out of the state and stayed there for everyone's safety. But still. It's not using alien DNA for something you would like to take public. 

I don't know why they haven't introduced her as "cousin Rosalinda" to everyone *including Arturo.* 

 

 

52 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

Max is involved in some serious self-harm behavior with the serum (which incidentally, Liz created

6 minutes ago, KittenPokerCheater said:

Max is going to have an interesting time, now that theres's no more serum since Liz left town.

Good point(s). A logical plot arc for this would be Liz regretting she ever came up with the serum and realizing she hadn't thought through any of her ET DNA research.
However, since the serum is more of a window into the unrecorded past (rather than just giving Max an addictive high) I'm guessing there will instead be a meeting of the minds with Liz and Max regarding her restarting the extraterrestrial biology research.

 

[RachelKM]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

This show would probably be better if they had a biological science consultant.

Yeah, but what a thankless job that would be, not to mention an insult to someone's expertise. I took one bioethics course in law school and this show astounds me with its multiple layers of dumbassary on the topic.

1 hour ago, Cristofle said:

But at the end of the day, I think he and all of the aliens can do risky things and still put their foot down when Liz is trying to experiment without their consent, because #1, she is not one of them and she is not putting herself at risk on the level she is putting others at risk with very little or no regard to their safety, and #2, I generally believe that Max doesn't need a reason to not want to be part of her experiments. I'm huge about bodily autonomy - I may personally find it a bit shocking if someone refused to donate their organ to save a family member, but I'd go down fighting for their right to do so. Max owes Liz no explanation as to why he does not want her experiments on his DNA (and she did not deny that she'd continued to harvest unknown things from him when he challenged her on it) to continue. Neither does Michael. Neither does Isobel. 

All of this.  I may be a little in love with you for this post.

And yes.  In addition to the fact that publishing research and making famous a treatment, not to mention publicly making good which is her expressed goal, based on alien material that could expose them globally being an order of magnitude more risky and random impulsive risks the aliens themselves may take, ITS THEIR RISK TO TAKE.

And 100 yeses to a person's bodily autonomy is sacrosanct. I don't have to approve of your reasons or even know about them. 

[peachmangosteen]

5 hours ago, KittenPokerCheater said:

For next season, I hope they trim the cast significantly.  Too many pieces on the board.

I want this too but if they did it they'd probably just get rid of the few characters I still marginally care about.

[Cristofle]

On 6/19/2020 at 12:45 PM, RachelKM said:

And 100 yeses to a person's bodily autonomy is sacrosanct. I don't have to approve of your reasons or even know about them. 

Yep. I think Max has been pretty clear since the pilot he's not comfortable being treated like a science experiment, but he could be refusing because he doesn't like the color of the sky that day and it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what risks he takes for himself - Liz is still unequivocally wrong to use his biology without his consent. And if she knew anything about bioethics, she'd know that.

I'm anything but a scientist, but I did work for a federal biosciences library for a few years and I know the complexities of getting any kind of treatment through the federal system. This show is such a mess, lol.

[Samwise979]

Re: Diego, maybe tiic won't go the typical "he's evil" route. Maybe he doesn't know anything about the alien experiments and he is just really excited about what Liz is/was working on. And even though breaking into her lab isn't a "good guy" move, it was meant with best intentions to get the woman scientist interested in Liz's work. Maybe his ulterior motive is nothing more than, getting Liz a great job and maybe winning her back?

Oooooor he's evil. Lol

[shapeshifter]

8 minutes ago, Samwise979 said:

Re: Diego, maybe tiic won't go the typical "he's evil" route. Maybe he doesn't know anything about the alien experiments and he is just really excited about what Liz is/was working on. And even though breaking into her lab isn't a "good guy" move, it was meant with best intentions to get the woman scientist interested in Liz's work. Maybe his ulterior motive is nothing more than, getting Liz a great job and maybe winning her back?

Oooooor he's evil. Lol

Or Diego's been hired by the evil doers who convinced him breaking into Liz's ("illegal") lab is a good thing, but Diego will come to see the (alien) light --or something.

[milizard]

I recently binged the two seasons of this show on Netflix.  I was an obsessive fan of the OG Roswell, until Tess came into the picture and the show got ruined.  This reboot, or whatever you call it, was never able the capture the magic of the OG show.  The quality of the actors in the main roles was just not there.   You could see the difference in Jason Behr's appearances in this new version.   He brought it.  Janine is decent, but did not have enough nuance for the lead.  Nathan was only tolerable after the amnesia.  I think a lot of his problem was due to the writing of his character.  They made him a pathetic weenie so as to show Liz being a strong, independent woman.  The problem is, why is she even attracted to him, then?  They should have written their story differently to make a mutual attraction make sense more.  None of this really made much sense, and it made this, supposedly central coupling fall completely flat.

The writing in this version was pretty terrible.  The political statements were too blunt and over the top.  Perhaps it could have been done better had it stuck to the source material more, and modern politics injected more subtly. (That's just a guess--I've never read the books myself, but they've got to be better than this!)  A lot of people here have focused on the race-optics, but I find quotas for their own sake tiresome.  The story suffered for the lack of Maria, not because she was black, but because she was needed more to round out the story.  They did bring in too many characters/story-lines (like others have said), and the story-telling suffered all the way around because of it.  The producer tried to be everything for everyone, and accomplished too little for all the main characters, which is not satisfying in any way.

I think I may look for where I can stream the OG Roswell, since I haven't watched it in a couple decades.  Maybe I'll even look to read the books.  I'll probably watch season 3 once it's on Netflix, if I remember.  I do like the basic premise, even if I don't care for this particular interpretation so much.

[shapeshifter]

50 minutes ago, milizard said:

I recently binged the two seasons of this show on Netflix.  I was an obsessive fan of the OG Roswell, until Tess came into the picture and the show got ruined.  This reboot, or whatever you call it, was never able the capture the magic of the OG show.  The quality of the actors in the main roles was just not there.   You could see the difference in Jason Behr's appearances in this new version.   He brought it.  Janine is decent, but did not have enough nuance for the lead.  Nathan was only tolerable after the amnesia.  I think a lot of his problem was due to the writing of his character.  They made him a pathetic weenie so as to show Liz being a strong, independent woman.  The problem is, why is she even attracted to him, then?  They should have written their story differently to make a mutual attraction make sense more.  None of this really made much sense, and it made this, supposedly central coupling fall completely flat.

The writing in this version was pretty terrible.  The political statements were too blunt and over the top.  Perhaps it could have been done better had it stuck to the source material more, and modern politics injected more subtly. (That's just a guess--I've never read the books myself, but they've got to be better than this!)  A lot of people here have focused on the race-optics, but I find quotas for their own sake tiresome.  The story suffered for the lack of Maria, not because she was black, but because she was needed more to round out the story.  They did bring in too many characters/story-lines (like others have said), and the story-telling suffered all the way around because of it.  The producer tried to be everything for everyone, and accomplished too little for all the main characters, which is not satisfying in any way.

I think I may look for where I can stream the OG Roswell, since I haven't watched it in a couple decades.  Maybe I'll even look to read the books.  I'll probably watch season 3 once it's on Netflix, if I remember.  I do like the basic premise, even if I don't care for this particular interpretation so much.

@milizard, we are of like minds, both WRT the OG Roswell and this show.
The books are well written. 

[phoenics]

On 6/19/2020 at 11:13 AM, shapeshifter said:

This show would probably be better if they had a biological science consultant.

Charmed clearly does - it does this kind of stuff SO much better than this show.

On 7/3/2020 at 3:23 PM, milizard said:

I recently binged the two seasons of this show on Netflix.  I was an obsessive fan of the OG Roswell, until Tess came into the picture and the show got ruined.  This reboot, or whatever you call it, was never able the capture the magic of the OG show.  The quality of the actors in the main roles was just not there.   You could see the difference in Jason Behr's appearances in this new version.   He brought it.  Janine is decent, but did not have enough nuance for the lead.  Nathan was only tolerable after the amnesia.  I think a lot of his problem was due to the writing of his character.  They made him a pathetic weenie so as to show Liz being a strong, independent woman.  The problem is, why is she even attracted to him, then?  They should have written their story differently to make a mutual attraction make sense more.  None of this really made much sense, and it made this, supposedly central coupling fall completely flat.

The writing in this version was pretty terrible.  The political statements were too blunt and over the top.  Perhaps it could have been done better had it stuck to the source material more, and modern politics injected more subtly. (That's just a guess--I've never read the books myself, but they've got to be better than this!)  A lot of people here have focused on the race-optics, but I find quotas for their own sake tiresome.  The story suffered for the lack of Maria, not because she was black, but because she was needed more to round out the story.  They did bring in too many characters/story-lines (like others have said), and the story-telling suffered all the way around because of it.  The producer tried to be everything for everyone, and accomplished too little for all the main characters, which is not satisfying in any way.

I think I may look for where I can stream the OG Roswell, since I haven't watched it in a couple decades.  Maybe I'll even look to read the books.  I'll probably watch season 3 once it's on Netflix, if I remember.  I do like the basic premise, even if I don't care for this particular interpretation so much.

I haven't watched this show since the spoilers came out for the threesome episode - but I do wish someone on youtube somewhere took all of the Jason Behr scenes and put them together so I could watch that.  He's just SO good.